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Hardmode: No Summoner or 3rd party material. I'd also prefer to avoid needing the GM to houserule anything.
Most of the vanilla methods I've come up with are accomplished *very* late game since the absolute earliest you can recruit a Large sized dragon using Leadership appears to be lvl 18, with most other options falling at 19th or 20th.
This is because of the addendum under Leadership that states you have to add +8 to a dragon's CR when determining it's cohort level (which normally must be 2 below yours).
Right now I'm looking at the Noble Scion class which, by level 15, allows you to have a cohort up to your level rather than 2 below. This would effectively let you recruit a Young Green dragon (CR 8+8) at lvl 16, which as far as I know is the lowest CR dragon that is Large sized unless you also count the Young Sea dragon (but riding an Imperial dragon might look goofy...).
Playing a Small-sized character (or shrinking your size) and/or finding ways to increase the dragon's size might allow you to recruit and ride it earlier (following the same CR+8 pattern with younger dragons).
1) What are reliable ways to alter yours and the dragon's size? (preferably making it bigger and you smaller)
2) Is there a mechanical way to gain a dragon ally other than Leadership? Can dragons be summoned via any spell?
3) If a dragon takes levels in Sorcerer is there anything saying it must take the Draconic bloodline? While it makes sense it gains little mechanical benefit.
4) Are there other ways of gaining Leadership as a class feature or reducing the level gap between character and cohort besides Noble Scion?
5) What is the formula for determining the cohort level for other monsters? When could I recruit a River Drake, for example.
Assume everything in the core line, adventure paths, modules, player companions, and campaign setting products is available.
He stated no 3rd party, so that class is out. Other wise make a deal with DM or high lvl leadership feat.
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Spellcaster + Form of the Dragon = Dragon mount.
You can't really. Dragons are intelligent creatures, and they view humans as being beneath them. Other than a GM being nice to you, that just won't happen.
Well there's RPing in-game to get a Dragonkin mount.
The Reign of Winter AP, specifically #4, The Frozen Stairs (you must climb them) is rife with Dragonkin and suggests it is possible for PCs to gain them as allies/mounts.
Dragonkin are not-quite-dragons but have a nice "Rider Bond" feature and are pretty close to what you're looking for.
Aside from that:
1) What are reliable ways to alter yours and the dragon's size? (preferably making it bigger and you smaller)
A big dragon can always make you smaller, especially if you're willing. It can even make you bite-sized!
But, jokes aside, cheezing a Simulacrum might work; make a simulacrum of a suitably aged dragon (like, really old), and you'll get a 1/2 HD version that is large & loyal. Drawback: without it having regeneration/fast healing (and some people rule that Simulacrums can't do that even if the base creature can), healing it ("repairing") can get expensive.
Or
Polymorph Any Object on a suitable critter. Probably the starting critter will have to have HD = what a dragon of the size you want (Large) is. Otherwise you just get a tiny version.
Or if you're serious about changing your own size, get yourself polymorph Any Objected into something the size of a sprite or pixie. That won't be too combat-effective, though.
Anyhow in PF getting a good (meaning capable, decent) dragon mount is, pretty much by design, a matter of RPing yourself into getting an ally, rather than simply using Leadership to get one. The only Dragon you'd get from Leadership (or, most likely, even RPing yourself into an ally-mount dragon) wouldn't be worth having by the time you got it (since it would be so inferior to foes you face, you'd spend all your time protecting it, or it would spend all its time in a particular status condition).
IMO Dragonkin is an option worth looking into; they're certainly designed as mount-type-dragons.
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Well, I was thinking of the new mythic adventure book coming out soon. This may have something on this subject.
You may have to use the animal companions idea like a mystic Bond from the egg. this would be an exotic creature to control. Dragons are highly intelligent. You might have to craft a feat or more than one feat to maintain control of the dragon?
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You can't really. Dragons are intelligent creatures, and they view humans as being beneath them. Other than a GM being nice to you, that just won't happen.
Ignoring the fact that you can indeed gain one as a cohort through pure crunch, dragons allying with humans occurs all the time in fantasy. It just makes logical sense that a Paladin and Silver Dragon (both LG) with a common cause would team up for great justice. Maybe not as rider and mount, but certainly as a crime-fighting duo. Given the right scenario you can justify just about any other pairing of like-minded beings. So no one in my group has any issues with it from a fluff perspective.
Well, I was thinking of the new mythic adventure book coming out soon. This may have something on this subject.
You may have to use the animal companions idea like a mystic Bond from the egg. this would be an exotic creature to control. Dragons are highly intelligent. You might have to craft a feat or more than one feat to maintain control of the dragon?
You might be onto something there. Mythic would be a pretty neat time to introduce such a powerful option.
Well there's RPing in-game to get a Dragonkin mount.
The Reign of Winter AP, specifically #4, The Frozen Stairs (you must climb them) is rife with Dragonkin and suggests it is possible for PCs to gain them as allies/mounts.
Dragonkin are not-quite-dragons but have a nice "Rider Bond" feature and are pretty close to what you're looking for.a...
Y'know now that you mention them I do remember reading about Dragonkin in the Distant Worlds book. I'll have to look into that again when I'm home.
I hadn't even considered Simulacrum or Polymorph Any Object. While they're both high level they do provide some other options that would probably end up a bit ahead of the real dragons available through Leadership (which, as you said, would be very squishy that late in the game).
I appreciate the suggestions, Porphy. :)
You'd need a clever DM who isn't afraid of being nice to his players, which is a rare find.
If we went strictly by RAW, the answer would be no, because like Fighters, Cavaliers cannot have nice things.
As someone had pointed out, the Dragonkin would be the best Dragon mount out there, and most likely the easiest one to acquire.
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In terms of Leadership, does anyone know a set method for calculating the cohort level of monsters?
When looking at the chart it seems like it usually adds either +3 or +4 to the creature's CR, with some adding as little as +2 or as much as +5. Unfortunately it's not clear what parameters are used to determine this.
In that vein, at what level could I recruit a Forest Drake (CR 4) as a cohort? The Forest Drake is probably the lowest CR draconic creature that is still large enough for a Medium rider.
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As far as I know there is no "set calculation method."
The SWAG tends to be Monster HD + 2 = Level, adding another +1-3 if they have exceptional abilities (where exceptional is defined by either the designer, for ones on the Official Monster Cohort List, or the DM for ones that are not), +1-2 if it has "Dragon" in the name (for example, the 14 HD, flying, breath-weapon using Sleipnir is a 16th level Cohort, as is the 10 HD Dragon Horse) (ok, that's a bit tongue-in-cheek: the Dragon Horse has some additional "good" abilities).
The general rule-of-thumb seems be, going by the list as it exists is that if the Player wants a Cohort with really kewl abilities, they should "pay" more for those abilities than they're really worth (Erinyes for example has only 9 HD, and counts as 16th level also). This isn't a bad rule of thumb, in general, because Leadership would be abused without it (many people see Leadership as inherently abusive and prohibit it outright).
There's obviously no "set calculation method" though because Stone Giant is treated as an 18th level character, and is nothing like, say, a Sleipnir.
You can't really. Dragons are intelligent creatures, and they view humans as being beneath them. Other than a GM being nice to you, that just won't happen.Ignoring the fact that you can indeed gain one as a cohort through pure crunch, dragons allying with humans occurs all the time in fantasy. It just makes logical sense that a Paladin and Silver Dragon (both LG) with a common cause would team up for great justice. Maybe not as rider and mount, but certainly as a crime-fighting duo.
First of all you asked for rules legal way so what may or may not happen in media based entertainment is not a factor.
Having read this thread I am still seeing alternatives listed to getting a dragon to be your mount, by the rules and no rules legal crunch. The best case may be leadership, but even that goes into GM-Fiat.
edit:ninja'd by you on my leadership idea I see.
Does it have to be a True Dragon, or can it be a lower level dragon, like a drake or wyvern? I feel that would be much more feasible if you want to play it before level 16+ while still maintaining the same effect.
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First of all you asked for rules legal way so what may or may not happen in media based entertainment is not a factor.Having read this thread I am still seeing alternatives listed to getting a dragon to be your mount, by the rules and no rules legal crunch. The best case may be leadership, but even that goes into GM-Fiat.
Sorry if I misinterpreted, but your first reply came across as "you can't because of fluff". I was just pointing out that fluff supports that you can, depending on the setting. As for DM-fiat, I already know my group is fine with it as long as my paperwork is all in order.
Does it have to be a True Dragon, or can it be a lower level dragon, like a drake or wyvern? I feel that would be much more feasible if you want to play it before level 16+ while still maintaining the same effect.
I'm not averse to using a drake. In fact my current plan is to try and nab a Forest Drake at level 7 or 8 (depending on what the group decides it's cohort level is) by going Bard/Noble Scion or maybe Antipaladin/Noble Scion. Then later on perhaps say it becomes a Green Dragon (although by lvl 16 the drake might be better because of class levels).
No problem. I thought you were only looking at true dragons, so we both misread each other.
Just grab one of the Orbs of Dragonkind. Problem solved.
Check the SRD under leadership, there's actually a list if dragon blooded stuff.
There are limited ways to do this by paizo rules. The absolute best way to do this is to convince your dm to allow the dragon rider from super genius games (link posted above). Its balanced by using a template similar to the animal companions for the dragons, and the more powerful dragons require the rider to use actions to allow them to act with more then a move action, its elegant, and you get to ride a dragon at first level (even if its a relatively weak dragon at the time).
In terms of Leadership, does anyone know a set method for calculating the cohort level of monsters?
When looking at the chart it seems like it usually adds either +3 or +4 to the creature's CR, with some adding as little as +2 or as much as +5. Unfortunately it's not clear what parameters are used to determine this.
In that vein, at what level could I recruit a Forest Drake (CR 4) as a cohort? The Forest Drake is probably the lowest CR draconic creature that is still large enough for a Medium rider.
It also seemed completely arbitrary to me. If i were to assign them a cohort level based on how powerful they really are (or are supposed to be based on their CR), I would first count down from PC class level. The leadership table assumes a character with only class levels, not factoring in gear, which you add, based on the feat's terms. So i would compare a monster's CR (since monsters normally don't have gear) with the class level -3 (since an NPCs CR is equal to its class level -1 with heroic npc gear/-2 with basic npc gear or -3 without gear).
So in my mind Cohort level=Monster's CR +3 should get you pretty close to an appropriate power level.
have you considered charm monster and the ride skill
Spell Gate and a good offer for the service.
3) If a dragon takes levels in Sorcerer is there anything saying it must take the Draconic bloodline? While it makes sense it gains little mechanical benefit.
A quick skimming of the thread and I didn't see any answers to this question so here's my 2cp
I don't believe there is any rule requiring them to take the draconic bloodline. Infact I don't think there's even a rule saying they'd have to take there own color if they did take the draconic bloodline. So in theory you could have a silver dragon with levels of red dragon sorcerer. Obviously pretty silly but technicly allowed
If I were DMing I'd probably let them select something else as long as it were theamaticly appropriate. For instance I'd definitely allow the Arcane bloodline.
However something worth nothing is that while dragons gain spells "as a sorcerer" based on their age I can see it being a matter of some debate weather those natural sorcerer "levels" would stack with real sorcerer levels.
Just a thought. As in all things something worth discussing with your DM before you get too many eggs in a particular basket.
- Torger
However something worth nothing is that while dragons gain spells "as a sorcerer" based on their age I can see it being a matter of some debate weather those natural sorcerer "levels" would stack with real sorcerer levels.- Torger
I, personally, would allow the sorcerer levels to stack, as the relative power level of a dragon compared to, say, the Kirin, is definitely not in favour of the dragon. A young Crystal Dragon has a cohort level of 14 (CR 6), and the Kirin has a cohort level of 13 (CR 13, and a free Wish once a week!)
Infact, the dragon is a poor choice, from an optimization POV. But then the bragging rights and boost to ones rep might make up for it.
They stack Torger. Whenever a monster has innate casting from a class it stacks with the actual class level for the purpose of spells.
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There are limited ways to do this by paizo rules. The absolute best way to do this is to convince your dm to allow the dragon rider from super genius games (link posted above). Its balanced by using a template similar to the animal companions for the dragons, and the more powerful dragons require the rider to use actions to allow them to act with more then a move action, its elegant, and you get to ride a dragon at first level (even if its a relatively weak dragon at the time).
The trouble would be convincing myself. While I generally like SGG, I did purchase that pdf when it was first released and it really didn't jive with me. That was a few years back so I may have a look at it again (it's probably had a few updates in that time) and see if it looks better the second time around.
have you considered charm monster and the ride skill
The idea of enchantment effects has been presented a few times but I really don't like it. If I were a Good-aligned character I would think the idea of mind control would be pretty awful at the very least. And if I were an Evil character I'd rather just use normal Diplomacy to work together (assuming it's an evil dragon with similar goals).
If you could find a plane other than the material plane with dragons you could use a scroll of planer ally...
Your GM might allow it.
They stack Torger. Whenever a monster has innate casting from a class it stacks with the actual class level for the purpose of spells.
I certainly think they should and would be happy to see that in print. Do you have a source?
- Torger
There are limited ways to do this by paizo rules. The absolute best way to do this is to convince your dm to allow the dragon rider from super genius games (link posted above). Its balanced by using a template similar to the animal companions for the dragons, and the more powerful dragons require the rider to use actions to allow them to act with more then a move action, its elegant, and you get to ride a dragon at first level (even if its a relatively weak dragon at the time).The trouble would be convincing myself. While I generally like SGG, I did purchase that pdf when it was first released and it really didn't jive with me. That was a few years back so I may have a look at it again (it's probably had a few updates in that time) and see if it looks better the second time around.
It has been revised, though there isnt a dramatic change in the class, but dont forget it stacks with every other 'pet' class to one extent or another. You could take one level and then go cavalier, druid, wizard, sorceror (with familiar), ranger, nature oracle, etc. All of those will continue to advance your dragon to one degree or another if your end goal is not fitting with the straight class.
They stack Torger. Whenever a monster has innate casting from a class it stacks with the actual class level for the purpose of spells.I certainly think they should and would be happy to see that in print. Do you have a source?
- Torger
All spell class stack with themselves so when a monster has innate spell casting abilities they are added to what the monster already has. That is a general rule. In order for dragons or any other monster to not work that way you would need a rule to say they don't stack when they are given actual class levels on top of the innate class levels.
Here is the general rule.
Step 2: Add Class Levels
............................Next, add the class levels to the monster, making all of the necessary additions to its HD, hit points, BAB, CMB, CMD, feats, skills, spells, and class features. If the creature possesses class features (such as spellcasting or sneak attack) for the class that is being added, these abilities stack. This functions just like adding class levels to a character without racial Hit Dice.
Step 2: Add Class Levels
............................Next, add the class levels to the monster, making all of the necessary additions to its HD, hit points, BAB, CMB, CMD, feats, skills, spells, and class features. If the creature possesses class features (such as spellcasting or sneak attack) for the class that is being added, these abilities stack. This functions just like adding class levels to a character without racial Hit Dice.
I must have missed that somehow.
Thanks for the source. Good to see.
- Torger