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I was flipping through the spell section of the PHB today, getting some stuff ready for my game this morning. As I was I somehow ended up comparing polar ray and scorching ray and I began to wonder, why is scorching ray a 2nd level spell and polar ray an 8th level spell? Sure polar ray doesn't cap out like scorching ray does, and as you advance it becomes more powerful, but at lower levels polar ray would actually be a less powerful spell than scorching ray. I think that polar ray should be demoted so that it is accessable at lower levels for those who want to make a specialist wizard who focuses on ice and cold spells.
But the Pathfinder version of Polar Ray does 1d4 Dex drain. That makes it worth an 8th level spell slot, right guys? Guys?
[crickets chirping]
But the Pathfinder version of Polar Ray does 1d4 Dex drain. That makes it worth an 8th level spell slot, right guys? Guys?
[crickets chirping]
Yes, it very much does. It takes a 4th level Restoration spell (with 100 gp component cost) to heal ability Drain. Quite potent - especially if you would be able to maximize or empower the whole spell.
As for Ice/cold themed - have Sleet storm and Ice storm and Cone of Cold, and Chill touch.
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But the Pathfinder version of Polar Ray does 1d4 Dex drain. That makes it worth an 8th level spell slot, right guys? Guys?
[crickets chirping]
Had not seen that. My game today is just straight 3.5. With the added 1d4 Dex drain it is certainly a higher level spell although I'm still not sure about 8th. That means you have to wait until 15th level to take it. Mayby 4th or 5th, but not 8th.
I think that hogarth was making a joke. In straight 3.5 polar ray has been used as an example of the most underpowered spell in the entire game. If you want an interesting read about polar ray and evocation spells in general check out the Damage spells should be lower level post back in the alpha release one combat and magic section. Polar ray was bumped in power for the pathfinder beta, but it "may" still need a little refinement to find the powering up it needs to make it an effective 8th level spell.
Again... polar ray deals drain damage at range in the Beta; quite a bit more hard-core than mere damage from a touch spell.
That said... I think touch of idiocy is too powerful as it is, and polar ray is still too feeble; the OP has a valid point.
I quite agree Touch of idiocy is too powerful, even if it had a saving throw it would be strong - compare with Bestow Curse. However for this comparison it is important to note that it does not even deal damage, merely a penalty.
Polar Ray may be mentioned as an underpowered spell, but running my high/epic game it was *the* single most effective spell I would ever use, b/c it lacks a saving throw. When I had 11th level slots available, they would be maximized polar rays.
Of course, Meteor Swarm is fixed now so the damage stacks and the proliferation of rings of universal greater energy resistance won't impact that as much (no pun intended).
Polar Ray, with the new drain damage, could manage as a 7th level spell instead of 8th - closer to the spell it came from (Freezing Sphere), but it will get used as is.
I know its not SRD (although its an archmage ability too), but the Reach Spell feat gives Touch of Idiocy 30' range for +2 spell slot levels. So slot level 4 for that at range...
Well, actually . . .
Polar Ray, with the new drain damage, could manage as a 7th level spell instead of 8th - closer to the spell it came from (Freezing Sphere), but it will get used as is.
Giving Polar Ray a Medium range would be huge for it.
Simply, though... it's got SR, it's subject to elemental resistance... bleh. Maybe make it into a Mini-Meteor Swarm, as in give it a secondary area-of-effect effect? Everything within 10' of the impact point suffers a movement penalty for one round?
-Matt
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Weird, I would have sworn that was CD or something...I know its not SRD (although its an archmage ability too), but the Reach Spell feat gives Touch of Idiocy 30' range for +2 spell slot levels. So slot level 4 for that at range...
Well, actually . . .
It is. The version presented on d20srd.org is the Deities and Demigods version. Not sure if Paizo can adapt that to core play, as it requires divine abilities.
I was looking at the Beta about this issue, and couldn't find anything on how to deal with bonus spell slots due and ability drain. There also wasn't anything about what to do if you have a Feat with an Ability score requirement (say, 17 DEX) that suddenly you don't meet anymore...?
I would tend to be harsh with this myself, nullifying non-qualified Feats, and removing bonus spell slots (randomly for prepared casters), but it should be addressed in the rules somewhere.
During which Chapter's Feedback Focus would this be dealt with, anyways? (Ability/Level Drain in general, not specific spells) As far as I could tell, it was only addressed in the Glossary...
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RPG Superstar 2013
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I have always been a wizard type, and I have never had complaints about polar ray. The high level is because the damage caps higher. Paizo adding a d4 Dex drain makes it a fantastic 8th or 9th level spell. Drop it much lower and we'll all cringe when someone fires it (Fires. ha!) at a salamander.
But, I would go for switching it to 6 or 7 and raising force cage to 8. Cause I have always thought that spell had too much going for it.
Oh, yeah. Any love for changing the abjurer specialist power to something more useful? Like...an insight bonus, maybe? Even just that would be an improvement.
Well, the problem is not only with the polar ray spell being a bit too weak (for an 8th level spell, that is; maybe if it were a 6th or 7th level... or 8th level, but without SR...). The problem is also with the scorching ray being too much powerful. I mean, come on, a 2nd level spell who can deal more damage than a fireball (3rd level spell) ?
Taking as an example a Wizard (Sorcerers, since have the "crippled spell level", do not face this problem at the beginning), at 3rd level you can deal 4d6 damage, which is more d6s than your caster level; and again, this problem appears at 7th (8d6) and 11th (12d6). Yes, a fireball deals up to 10d6 to all creatures inside its area, but it's a 3rd level spell with Reflex(half) saving throw; while scorching ray has the potential to deal even more damage to a single target (and, being a ranged touch without saving throw, can even deal MORE damage to creatures with Evasion or Improved Evasion even with a lousy single 4d6 ray, provided the ranged touch hits - and that usually is not a real problem...). Not counting a lucky 20 on your die roll (!).
Also, as a 2nd level spell, consider how much Metamagic feats you can apply to pump it even more; a Twinned Empowered Scorching Ray (9th level spell, since Twin Spell from Complete Arcane takes 4 slots and Empower Spell takes 3) can deal 36d6 (4d6 per ray, multiplied by 1,5, 6 rays instead of three), which is even more than a Meteor Swarm (32d6 on a single target who takes all 4 meteors on impact and explosion). And, even only with the SRD metamagic feats, you can easily cast a Maximized Empowered Scorching Ray (again, 9th level spell) who deals 108 hp (which is roughly the same average damage of a Meteor Swarm; 32d6 on average deals 112 hp).
If polar ray has to be "pumped up" a little more (or change its spell level to a lower one), scorching ray has to be "toned down" a bit; maybe 3d6 per ray (instead of 4d6)? This would put it in line with the other 2nd level arcane spells...
Polar Ray with 1d4 Dex damage is at best a 3rd level spell. Consider Touch of Idiocy as a comparison, which does much better stat damage, but as a touch, at level 2.
Touch of idiocy imposes a stat penalty and not actual damage. As such, the effects wear off when the spell ends. The effect can be dispeled, which does not require the costly component that restoration requires.
The pathfinder polar ray deals drain damage. Ability drain is a permanent loss. It takes a restoration spell to recover the lost points. Polar ray has no saving throw to negate the damage or even the drain effect, so I think it warrants the 8th level slot now.
a Twinned Empowered Scorching Ray (9th level spell, since Twin Spell from Complete Arcane takes 4 slots and Empower Spell takes 3) can deal 36d6 (4d6 per ray, multiplied by 1,5, 6 rays instead of three), which is even more than a Meteor Swarm (32d6 on a single target who takes all 4 meteors on impact and explosion). And, even only with the SRD metamagic feats, you can easily cast a Maximized Empowered Scorching Ray (again, 9th level spell) who deals 108 hp (which is roughly the same average damage of a Meteor Swarm; 32d6 on average deals 112 hp).
Scorching Ray suffers from the same problems as Polar Ray: Close range, SR, elemental damage. In my experiences, if you're casting a metamagicked Scorching Ray out of your 9th-level slot, you're going to get a lesson on something called Energy Resistance, which by the way, applies to all three rays.
Another easy way to strengthen Polar Ray would be to preinstall the Piercing Cold feat from Frostburn: have it negate Energy Resistance and deal half damage against targets with Energy Immunity.
-Matt
The pathfinder polar ray deals drain damage. Ability drain is a permanent loss. It takes a restoration spell to recover the lost points. Polar ray has no saving throw to negate the damage or even the drain effect, so I think it warrants the 8th level slot now.
Permanent damage types (vile damage, ability drain, etc.) are typically irrelevant when used against enemies (who generally end up dying anyways). So they mostly hurt PCs instead of NPCs.
Hmmm, seems like I didn't make my homeworks quite well. Empower Spell takes only two spell slots, not three. But this would lead to a straight comparison between Polar Ray and Scorching Ray. The two combos I posted before put the "Uber Scorching Ray" (either the twinned or the maximized version) at the same level of the Polar Ray. Yes, of course we have multiple rays instead of a single, powerful one (and so, energy resistance would be VERY nasty for a scorching ray), but basically we have a 15th level wizard that deals 36d6 vs 15d6 with the same spell (or 108 hp vs 52,5 hp average damage). And the OP is again right.
I still suggest to put the Scorching Ray at least to 3d6 per ray instead of 4d6; in that case, the combos would not be so uber-powerful (for a 2nd level spell, that is); the twinned spell, ~27d6 (3d6 per 6 rays, each ray multiplied by 1.5), and the maximized spell, 81 hp. Still VERY GOOD, I know... but, unless we ALSO deny a character to use more than one metamagic feat PER SPELL (and I don't know if that would be a good idea...) and/or we ban the Twin Spell feat (which comes from a splatbook), that is the best I can think of.
- SIGH - the real problem is that a spell which has no saving throw is basically more powerful if it's of low level (thanks to the appplication of metamagic feats); there are VERY few creatures/spells/things that have total immunity to low level spells (globe of invulnerability, lesser globe of invulnerability, spell immunity and greater spell immunity; and the protective aura of Angels)...
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Hmmm, seems like I didn't make my homeworks quite well. Empower Spell takes only two spell slots, not three. But this would lead to a straight comparison between Polar Ray and Scorching Ray. The two combos I posted before put the "Uber Scorching Ray" (either the twinned or the maximized version) at the same level of the Polar Ray.
Where do you find the Twin Spell feat? I may want to use it someday.
I still suggest to put the Scorching Ray at least to 3d6 per ray instead of 4d6; in that case, the combos would not be so uber-powerful (for a 2nd level spell, that is)
Except it's not a 2nd-level spell anymore. Your combo is a paltry sum for level 15, even more paltry because of the feat investment. A Twinned Empowered Scorching Ray averages to 24d6x1.5, or (12x7)x1.5 = 126. That's nothing compared to the 300 damage/round a melee PC does, and that melee PC doesn't have to worry about SR or Energy Resistance getting in the way.
Scorching Ray is fine where it is, capping out at 12d6. It deals more than Fireball against single targets; something really should.
-Matt
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RPG Superstar 2013
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A couple of points, just for cleanup:
Energy resistance doesn't apply to all scorching rays. Against different targets, yes. But energy resistance ablates the first x damage in a round a creature takes. If its ER is used up during the first ray, it doesn't get any during the other two.
Also, scorching ray requires ranged touch attacks, generally with the worst attack bonus in the game. It can still be a reliable hit, because they are touch, but they can miss. Fireballs and meteor swarms are at much better range, and don't miss. They can even fire around corners in a sense, which the rays can't do. Admittedly, they allow saves.
Finally, the scorching ray affects at maximum three dudes. If you apply the same range of metamagic, you get roughly the same results. Twinned and empowered, you get 104 points.
The spells can be designed for equitable damage, but have advantages and disadvantages that ensure they aren't the same spell. Doesn't much matter how much damage your fireball does against 17th level rogues. Against a CR 17 flight of manticores, fireball is the only way to go.
It is. The version presented on d20srd.org is the Deities and Demigods version. Not sure if Paizo can adapt that to core play, as it requires divine abilities.
It shouldn't make any difference, given that, while its listed in the divine section, its only a metamagic feat with no prerequsites. Its not much different than the standard feats listed in the psionic section, at least to my way of thinking, but I could be wrong.
A couple of points, just for cleanup:
Energy resistance doesn't apply to all scorching rays. Against different targets, yes. But energy resistance ablates the first x damage in a round a creature takes. If its ER is used up during the first ray, it doesn't get any during the other two.
Also, scorching ray requires ranged touch attacks, generally with the worst attack bonus in the game. It can still be a reliable hit, because they are touch, but they can miss. Fireballs and meteor swarms are at much better range, and don't miss. They can even fire around corners in a sense, which the rays can't do. Admittedly, they allow saves.
Finally, the scorching ray affects at maximum three dudes. If you apply the same range of metamagic, you get roughly the same results. Twinned and empowered, you get 104 points.
The spells can be designed for equitable damage, but have advantages and disadvantages that ensure they aren't the same spell. Doesn't much matter how much damage your fireball does against 17th level rogues. Against a CR 17 flight of manticores, fireball is the only way to go.
Not to mention that you can much more effectively "nuke from orbit" with a fireball spell. I never really gave the range much thought until I had a group run into a sea serpent on the open waters, and had a sorcerer fly backwards blasting the thing from a distance, over and over again, completely safe from it as it fought the rest of the party, which he couldn't have done with scorching ray.
Where do you find the Twin Spell feat? I may want to use it someday.
Twin Spell is on the Complete Arcane.
Energy resistance doesn't apply to all scorching rays. Against different targets, yes. But energy resistance ablates the first x damage in a round a creature takes. If its ER is used up during the first ray, it doesn't get any during the other two.
Actually, this was how energy resistance worked in 3.0. In 3.5, it works more or less like DR against energy damage; energy resistance absorbs damage from every attack. I'm well aware that the d20 SRD lists "ignore some damage of a certain type each ROUND" under the header "Special abilities and conditions", but in the header "Types, Subtypes and Special Abilities" it says "Resistance to Energy (Ex): A creature with this special quality ignores some damage of the indicated type each time it takes damage of that kind (commonly acid, cold, fire, or electricity). The entry indicates the amount and type of damage ignored."
This is obviously an error which was never corrected; the Beta in fact applies the "Energy resistance = Energy DR" as above in every application of the special ability; see for example the description of the Energy Resistance Armor bonus on pag.342: "The armor absorbs the first 10 points of energy damage per attack that the wearer would normally take (similar to the resist energy spell)."
I think Skip Williams may have even discussed this a bit in one of his Kobold Quarterly columns, if I remember correctly.
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It shouldn't make any difference, given that, while its listed in the divine section, its only a metamagic feat with no prerequsites. Its not much different than the standard feats listed in the psionic section, at least to my way of thinking, but I could be wrong.It is. The version presented on d20srd.org is the Deities and Demigods version. Not sure if Paizo can adapt that to core play, as it requires divine abilities.
Hmm. You may have a point there. The Feats part of DD says "Deities may select these feats" but it doesn't actually have "divine rank" in the prerequisites, which means it is open for anyone.
PRPG should nab some of them, definitely Power Critical, Divine Might, Extra Music, Fleet of Foot, and Eyes in the Back of Your Head.