It's just simpler. Sure you could max the same number of ranks, but dabbling one skill point here and another couple there is a big pain. I always just dumped max ranks into class+int bonus skills anyway just so I wouldnt have to deal with it. It is also far simpler when creating characters above first level, partiularly at high level to just say that you have (class+int)(x16) skills to distribute rater than (class+int)(x4)+(class+int)(x15). i approve the change. Simplicity is best for newer players and players who aren't as into the game to be posting on Paizo Forums =). I cant tell you how many times a player asks me how many skill points they have to spend when making a character, I explain the formula, and they look at me blankly until I say: ok... its 32.
I guess I just don't understand the entire problem with the X4 at first level? Is the math hard? I just have never seen a problem with it and though I understand the compromise that Jason took with the Alpha rules I just find it silly.
I'd pretty much thought the same myself, but oh well... it's either added complexity or choice depending on how you look at it...
I always raise the skill points for all classes by 2. I just prefer games in which problems are not solved by beating on something with a weapon.
With the skill ranks replacing x4 at 1st level though, the extra hp or skill rank in the Beta will probably be a must have. Keep in mind though: EVERY player at starting level that takes a 2+ Int skill ranks per level class will likely go for the favored class benefit and choose the extra skill rank.
Or has the starting level skill ranks problem already been fixed in the beta? I haven't posted in a while.
If skills go back to x4 at 1st level or become a minimum of 4 + Int modifier, and the favored class rule is removed, there might be more fulfillment in the roleplaying aspect and possibly less paperwork.
What exactly is the problem you see there? It's not as if the removal of the x4 multiplier at first level makes a charcter's skill values worse. A first level Pathfinder character with 1 rank in a skill has the same total skill bonus than a 3.5 first level character with four ranks.
What exactly is the problem you see there? It's not as if the removal of the x4 multiplier at first level makes a charcter's skill values worse. A first level Pathfinder character with 1 rank in a skill has the same total skill bonus than a 3.5 first level character with four ranks.
Only if it's a class skill. Characters that invest heavily in cross-class-skills have much less skill points to do that.
Appart from that, I really like the changes to the skill-system.
But that has nearly nothing to do with the Favored Class bonus.
Also the other reason for dropping the x4 at first level comes with the +3 to class skill and the 1 to 1 cost of cross class. So now with 1 skill point you get a +4 bonus in first level. in 3,5 you could have 4 as well since it was Level +3 max ranks. I think is a good simplification. Doing the math also you end up with less skill points, but there are also less skills to use those points in. In the process also favors characters taking non class skills just because the process seems to pay off right away instead of half ranks here and there.
As for the favor class. I do think favored class is an unnecessary, for role-playing characters that have a good reason for their multiclass seems like a necessary felling of loss, and for game sharks the planned benefit of their overkill multiclass is better than the hit point or skill loss.
Well, since cross-class skills don't appear to take double skill points any more, by 5th-level you would have 8x skill points and 4.0 ranks. Instead you now have 5x skill points and 5 ranks (and +3 to all your trained class skills), which is already an improvement.
I guess I just don't understand the entire problem with the X4 at first level? Is the math hard? I just have never seen a problem with it and though I understand the compromise that Jason took with the Alpha rules I just find it silly.
The X4 1st level skill points isn't really a math problem, clerics, paladins, sorcerers, Fighters will start with 8,rogues 32 etc
The trouble is generally the inbalance, any player who starts the game with a character with low skill points (2 for example) is severely hampered skill wise. The Wizard is the one exeption as his prime stat being intelligence balances out( a bit!!).
Even worse any character who starts out with a low skill character (e.g fighter ) who then turns high skill point class(e'g rogue) end up with vastly different skill points from a PC who does the same class levels but takes the Rogue first.
1st level fighter\1st level Rogue =16 skill points
1st level rogues\1st level fighter=34 Skill points
A difference of 18 skill points from the same levels. As stated above the player will suffer for choosing a low skill class at ist level and this you go high skill class every time despite character concept.
Personally I was planning on giving all PC's 'background skills of 3x4=12' then 1 level of skill points as per the 1st level class plus 4xIntelligence bonus.
I cannot see why this wouldn't make a nice compromise and give PC's better options for character building.
To bring this thread back on topic from discussing the skill system (I like the new one, by the way, though I need to get used to 1 point buying +4 the first time and cross-class skills have improved), let's discuss possible reasons to discard favored classes. In another thread, I said:
Hrmm. I should add that the Alpha version of favored class may need tweaking. It depends upon intent.
Under the old (3.0/3.5) rules, favored class said 'If a Dwarf Multi-classes, he's probably multi-classing a fighter.' That might not be what the name sounds like it does, but that's what the rule said.
Under the Alpha rules, the free HP says 'Dwarves should be fighters (or clerics)'. Any other choice seems slightly suboptimal. That matches the name 'favored class' better, but it doesn't match the incentives of the old rule, I thought it worth mentioning.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Going back to the OP's post:
With the skill ranks replacing x4 at 1st level though, the extra hp or skill rank in the Beta will probably be a must have. Keep in mind though: EVERY player at starting level that takes a 2+ Int skill ranks per level class will likely go for the favored class benefit and choose the extra skill rank.
I don't think this is true. If someone is playing a fighter, paladin, etc. who doesn't have the ability scores to put a high amount in CON, I can easily see them taking the extra hp to get the extra combat edge and last longer in a fight. SOME players will want to diversify and get the extra skill points, but certainly not ALL. Also, wizards get 2 skill points per level, but with their high INT bonus, are very unlikely to take the skill points instead of hp.
On the other end of the spectrum, I think that some of the more skill based classes are just as likely to go for skill points instead of hp. As and example, I recently made a druid, and decided that at first level at least, and probably for the next several, I'd take the extra skill points, since I wanted to fill that role a bit better than what I could do with my base allotment. After getting a few skills that are of secondary importance up to a decent amount, I will likely switch to hp.
I think that the one class that's likely to "automatically" pick one option over the other is the rogue, with their high skill points already, and the consolidation of skills, they're more likely to take the hp than any other class.
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I would still much prefer to see the Favored Class concept supported by Racial Feats that provide bonuses to standard features of a races favored classes than by any sort of automatic bonus or penalty. Converting aspects of the Racial Paragon substitution levels from Unearthed Arcana (which essentially do this same thing in 3.5) would be a good place to start, and Racial Feat lists could be vetted by individual DMs based on what they felt would be appropriate for any individual game.
Especially with the higher feat selection you now get in Pathfinder, Favored Class could have as much (or as little) impact on a game as you like, and could be expanded on almost limitlessly based on what a player can imagine and/or a DM would allow.
Favored class really isn't necessary anymore; what's definitely unnecessary is requesting that every player chooses their favored class upon character creation. Character creation takes long enough; the goal should be to streamline it, not complicate it further.
Also, with no more favored classes... one less element to explain to new players.
Also, as Alpha3 stands, if non-PHB classes are used in a campaign, non-human/half-elves are at a disadvantage, as no demi-human has, say, Swashbuckler as a favored class.
Removing favored class streamlines the game.
-Matt
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Also, as Alpha3 stands, if non-PHB classes are used in a campaign, non-human/half-elves are at a disadvantage, as no demi-human has, say, Swashbuckler as a favored class.
-Matt
Actually that's not true. First I'd challenge that not having as many options is a disavantage. It's not the same flexibility to be sure, but as long as the classes are balanced, it shouldn't be an issue. Also, if your DM introduces other class options, he can just as easily assign them as additional favored class options for the core races.
I would still much prefer to see the Favored Class concept supported by Racial Feats that provide bonuses to standard features of a races favored classes than by any sort of automatic bonus or penalty. Converting aspects of the Racial Paragon substitution levels from Unearthed Arcana (which essentially do this same thing in 3.5) would be a good place to start, and Racial Feat lists could be vetted by individual DMs based on what they felt would be appropriate for any individual game.
Another option might be looking at some of the racial substitution levels and converting them over to feats. (I was a big fan of racial sub levels, although the idea was poorly executed in some instances.)
Also, as Alpha3 stands, if non-PHB classes are used in a campaign, non-human/half-elves are at a disadvantage, as no demi-human has, say, Swashbuckler as a favored class.
Frankly, what happens to non-core classes isn't much concern to me, and I don't think it needs to be a big consideration in game design. If a DM wants to incorporate that stuff then he needs to sit down and put the work into it. Essentially all non-core stuff, including all WotC splatbooks, are all house rules now.
Maybe it makes more sense for elves to have a favored class of scout as opposed to ranger? If your campaign has seagoing halflings I could totally see them having swashbuckler as a favored class instead of rogue, or perhaps rogue and swashbuckler. That's your DM's call (or your call if you are the DM). Nuking a game mechanic because it affects optional rules is not cool.
Favored classes help differentiate the races. The fact that humans and half elves have favored class 'any' is definitely a racial advantage, much like sleep resistance and darkvision are racial advantages for the elf and the dwarf.
If you want to 'streamline' your game then just remove races altogether, stat everyone up like a human but you can use whatever mini you want and call it a dwarf or an elf. Removing the skill system and feats also streamlines the game. The point is... streamlining isn't always the best thing for the game system.
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I have been running RotRL with the alpha soon to be beta rules :)The one thing I did with the skills is bump up skill points. I was inspired by the hit point boost and it works well. I am using the no multiplier at first level. no double cost for cross class, +3 when you first put a rank in a class skill. the only difference is all classes with base 2 bump up to 4, 4 to 6, 6 to 8, and the rogue holds at 8 points. When my habitual Rogue player cried foul. I simply pointed to the H.P. rule, and showed him that while most classes got a bump the "warrior" classes stayed where they were. I think this gives the classes who have always needed a little help in the skill department the help they needed. it is versatile enough that dabblers can put a point here or there for flavor, and players feel rewarded for putting points in class skills. One player said "So now I don't have to figure up first level points and then worry about cross class cost two. I just put my 6 points where I want, and get a bonus if they are class skills. Nice!" I know since I have boosted the points just a bit I am getting players that are spending an occasional point in a skill for pure role play reasons where before for many the too few points were to precious to squander, and the double cost for cross class skills was prohibitive. I think it works well, but thats just me. If anyone else gives it a try I would love to hear feedback on what you think.
I remember playing D&D with the Basic/Expert rules. Then all Halflings were Thieves (Rogues), all Dwarves were Fighters and Elves were Magic Users (Wizards).
I suppose, but I may be mistaken, that the favoured classes exist as a legacy of those rules and to add to the race concept.
Favoured classes should stay but, as it has been pointed out, in different campaigns the specific favoured classes may need to vary. It's all about the flavour of the game in the end. Even if it's plain old vanilla.
The problem with the current mechanic for favored classes is that it punishes playing a Dwarf Wizard, for example. Under the 3.5 rules there was no penalty for that unless you multiclassed.
Please don't reply saying it doesn't punish the Dwarf Wizard, it rewards the Dwarf Cleric. That's false. The baseline race is human, and pretty much every human character will get his favored class bonus just about every level. This means losing that bonus is a punishment. If playing a non-cleric, non-fighter dwarf is automatically suboptimal, then they are being punished.
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What if, instead of making other races pick one of two classes as a favored class, they instead got both classes as favored classes, while humans, half-elves and other more flexible races got to pick any class, but only one?
It wouldn't mkae every race as good for every class, but it would no longer be a straight "one is better than the other" situation, and it would support the concept that demi-humans tend to multi-class better in their traditional niches.
Some stuff
I just wanted to point out that at first glance your avatar looks remarkably similar to the avatar in the post above yours... it's kind of disturbing. ;)
The problem with the current mechanic for favored classes is that it punishes playing a Dwarf Wizard, for example. Under the 3.5 rules there was no penalty for that unless you multiclassed.
Please don't reply saying it doesn't punish the Dwarf Wizard, it rewards the Dwarf Cleric. That's false. The baseline race is human, and pretty much every human character will get his favored class bonus just about every level. This means losing that bonus is a punishment. If playing a non-cleric, non-fighter dwarf is automatically suboptimal, then they are being punished.
You make a fair point. The thing is whether favoured class is associated with a penalty (XP penalty) or with a bonus (extra hp or skill) it is a game mechanic and is as such easily amended or dropped altogether.
The more significant issue is what was the favoured class rule intended to achieve? I don't know if there are any designers notes specific to this issue but it would help to evaluate how successful it has been but in any event it is clear there is plent of discontent.
I think favoured class is meant to work on two levels.
One is to enhance campaign flavour by encouraging characters to match certain races and classes. Saying not only "halfling make good rogues" and "dwarves make good fighters" but also "dwarves don't make good wizard/rogues" however they could make single class wizards or rogues or fighter/wizards or cleric/rogues. But this is just about the feel of the gane and can be easily modified for any campaign.
Secondly, favoured class is intended to stop min/maxing and level dipping in a way that breaks the game. Reading the message boards it seems like there is real concern that the rules should prevent this kind of play.
The question is whether the favoured class rule achieves either of these. If it doesn't what are alternatives. I haven't seen any put forward only the suggestion to drop favoured classes.
NB I am relatively new to the message boards and am not that acquainted with all the ongoing dicussion.
Actually, one idea might be to take away the human bonus skill points. A human is almost always in their favored class, so they'd get them right back, while another race can only get them by taking a preferred class. This would make it feel more like the favored class is being rewarded, rather than non-favored being punished.
(Humans would need to get some other racial bonus to offset the change, though.)
Secondly, favoured class is intended to stop min/maxing and level dipping in a way that breaks the game. Reading the message boards it seems like there is real concern that the rules should prevent this kind of play.
The question is whether the favoured class rule achieves either of these. If it doesn't what are alternatives. I haven't seen any put forward only the suggestion to drop favoured classes.
I don't think favoured class achieves achieves this goal. Many of the worst offenders as far as builds go rely on only one or two base classes. PrC, feats, spells, and racial abilities can be just as much a factor in creating over-the-top characters as base class combos. Furthermore, to stop minmaxing you'd have to take away racial ability adjustments altogether. (And, btw, they already help to function as a favoured class mechanic, by giving you certain higher stats which are more useful for some classes than others.)
Edit with some examples to clarify: anyone playing a changeling is probably looking at rogue or bard because of the Disguise and social skill bonuses, regardless of what its favoured class is. Anyone playing a druid is automatically going to gravitate towards races with a Wisdom bonus.