RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4
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This line from "sneak attack":
The rogue... "must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach."
is the text about vitals just flavor guidance for the DM or does it actually come into play? Can a rogue not sneak attack creatures of Size X? Is this defined better somewhere else in the rules?
It isn't better defined, but as a DM I'd apply it (for instance) if the rogue readied an action to strike when a monster used a natural attack with reach, since they would only be able to reach the striking appendage, which is not a 'vital spot'.
It isn't better defined, but as a DM I'd apply it (for instance) if the rogue readied an action to strike when a monster used a natural attack with reach, since they would only be able to reach the striking appendage, which is not a 'vital spot'.
What if it was a bite attack? I think the head counts.
I think its a bit weird to allow sneak attacks on undead, as the point is that they dont *have* vital spots, so I was wondering something much along the same lines.
If Undead *do* have vital spots, how do you decide what counts? Take a Gibbering Mouther, for example. Apparently sneak-attack-able, but very amorphous and strange, much like an ooze in many respects (no vital points, not sneak-attack-able).
I dont like that its kind of DM jurisdiction on a lot of these things, I really wish the rules would spell out more clearly when sneak attack is a legitimate option. Most of the time if a character is in-reach (w.in 5 feet, normally) you would think they could pick out a vital spot... on a medium sized creature. What about large? Huge? Colossal? Can a rogue sneak attack a collossal red dragon? Its really freaking big! You cant reach it's head or its heart, only its legs and tail really, but that really should be made explicit if it is indeed the case?
Or, maybe this refers to positioning? It would make sense to a degree, say if a kraken is attacking with its tentacles at long range, the rogue cant sneak-attack a tentacle. But for the most part, this is covered by the *reach* rules, if the rogue can reach the 'squares' that the kraken occupies, it can sneak attack, right? Cause... that's body, not tentacles (tentacles are in the 60 ft reach that it has, not the squares it occupies).
I just dont know, I wish it were clearer.
I agree with the bite. I was thinking more of claws and tentacles.
If you can reach its body (i.e. its squares) and it is a sneak-attack-able type, then I'd allow it. Even on a Storm Giant or something you're knee-high to, the Achilles Tendon is a big deal.
What if we thought about sneak attack damage more as being like bleed damage than simply striking a vital spot. Fer instance, a rogue could do additional damage to a great big beastie simply by opening up a major vein.
A slash to the jugular, for example, would be far more debilitating than a slash to the nearby shoulder. Sneak attacking a skellington could involve placing your blade between the bones (ie "I guess you won't be needing that knee cap") and so on.
I encourage other DMs to challenge their players with describing in RP terms how they're sneak attacking their target.
I'm not sure how to answer when the "can't reach vital spot", but I have this advice for sneak attacking undead.
Shoot zombies in the head.
I'm not sure how to answer when the "can't reach vital spot", but I have this advice for sneak attacking undead.
Shoot zombies in the head.
Yeah, but what do they always use? A shotgun. Although it's kind of a silly example, I'd argue that in those movies (which arent even dnd, but hey, I'll go with it) the characters aren't doing sneak attack damage, they're just doing a *lot* of normal damage.
hehe, anyway. erm, ok, so I admit I'm also worried about balancing encounters. The rogue is one of the more popular classes to play, most parties have one. And personally, I really like undead as monsters, I like using them. And I've noticed... well, they don't have a lot of hit points, and allowing sneak atacks on undead makes them considerably weaker. Undead were balanced with their low HP precisely because they had immunities to crit hits and sneak attacks. If the rogue manages one good attack with a bajillion d6s of extra damage, that creature is pwned, no matter what it is. This is especially deadly because the rogue does lots of damage with each single attack, (unlike the monk, for example, with a lot of attacks but relatively low damage on each), allowing it to blow past DR easily.
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This line from "sneak attack":
The rogue... "must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach."
is the text about vitals just flavor guidance for the DM or does it actually come into play? Can a rogue not sneak attack creatures of Size X? Is this defined better somewhere else in the rules?
I rule it as "if you can share a space with the creature, you cannot reach its vitals". If the creature is big enough to step under, you cannot effectively strike the vitals. That means two size-categories larger than the rogue, so a huge creature cannot be sneak attacked in melee (unless, say, it was prone or other circumstances arose). Now, certain feats (like hamstring) do work in this case, but for the most part, no.
Contributor
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I always assumed the intent of that rule was for scenarios like a human on the ground fighting a storm giant... you can't sneak attack his foot (although I understand that their are important arteries and support tendons in the ankle). The thing about reach makes sense though too... and came up in a game I played. We were being attacked by a giant squid, and the DM ruled that I couldn't sneak attack its tentacles, which were grappling another PC, and I couldn't reach its body from where I was, because the thing's reach was 30 feet or something.
Of course, that was D&D, not Pathfinder. It's also possible that this is an artifact from the OGL that shouldn't apply any more.
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And I've noticed... well, they don't have a lot of hit points, and allowing sneak atacks on undead makes them considerably weaker. Undead were balanced with their low HP precisely because they had immunities to crit hits and sneak attacks.
One of the less-noticed but rather important changes in Alpha 3 is the fact that all undead use their Charisma score instead of their Constitution score to calculate their hit points (pg 127). Thus, most non-mindless undead will see a hp boost that should serve to at least partially offset the change to sneak attacks.
This is something that, sadly, the DM will have to consider on an instance-by-instance basis. Even an attack-by-attack basis.
Some monsters are *tall*, others are BIG but squat, still others are just.. there. (krell? lookin at you).
What qualifies as "in reach of a vital spot" is going to have to be a decision the DM makes based on the position of the PC and the critter each turn.
Because D&D largely ignores facing (and facing would be great in this specific example), I would probably go what was already said- if something is attacking with reach and you can't get to the "body" then you can't SA it.
Blanket rules contrasting PC size vs Monster size I probably wouldn't use, because of the vast disparity in size types. (huge tall? huge long? does it have legs? You can walk under it, and it's MALE.. can you strike a vital spot? etc..)
-S
And I've noticed... well, they don't have a lot of hit points, and allowing sneak atacks on undead makes them considerably weaker. Undead were balanced with their low HP precisely because they had immunities to crit hits and sneak attacks.One of the less-noticed but rather important changes in Alpha 3 is the fact that all undead use their Charisma score instead of their Constitution score to calculate their hit points (pg 127). Thus, most non-mindless undead will see a hp boost that should serve to at least partially offset the change to sneak attacks.
Lesser known indeed! Ok, I totally didn't even see that. Very well then, I suppose I withdraw complaint about sneak attacking undead. Still wish for a bit more official clarity with when you can and can not reach vitals.
Personally, I assumed that the line about vital spots being out of reach meant that you couldn't sneak attack creatures with limbs which can be attacked, like a hydra.