A level-appropriate encounter isn't supposed to carry a risk of death. An EL = APL encounter is supposed to eat 20% of party resources, not potentially kill a character. That's why the only chance of PC death should be from incautious play in such a situation.
I interpret it differently: If you have a party of five, and one of them gets knocked off, you've suffered a 20% loss (or a lot less than that, if you get the unlucky sod resurrected, which is incredibly easy to do now that there's no Con-based "resurrection survival" throw).
A lot of effects in 1e (e.g., imprisonment) didn't even grant a saving throw. You were supposed to be cunning enough to avoid them; if you were careless, your luck ran out. Saving throws for everything was a nice addition -- that enabled you to survive through caution, or through luck, and that worked well. Eliminating all "or die" or "or lose" effects -- even if hp damage results -- is too far from the roots, for my taste. Others may prefer it. But see below; this is a big issue, to my mind.
You know, this seems like an exceptionally important branching point in the game; you either have save-or-die effects, or you don't, there's no real way to reconcile one with the other. This isn't something an options sidebar will fix, because it affects adventure design at a very fundamental level. (If sticking your hand in the green devil mouth simply deals 20d6 damage, that's a far cry from losing the limb!)
We all need to be very careful about changes in this model, and make absolutely sure -- through extensive playtesting, not just emotional reaction -- that we're taking it in the right direction.
You know, this seems like an exceptionally important branching point in the game; you either have save-or-die effects, or you don't, there's no real way to reconcile one with the other. This isn't something an options sidebar will fix, because it affects adventure design at a very fundamental level. (If sticking your hand in the green devil mouth simply deals 20d6 damage, that's a far cry from losing the limb!)
What if it was 40d6? Or 60d6? 100d6? Is there any level of damage which basically equates to "instant death" in your opinion?
What if it was 40d6? Or 60d6? 100d6? Is there any level of damage which basically equates to "instant death" in your opinion?
Yes, but it's level-dependent. If you have 100 hp, 20d6 is exceptionally unlikely to kill you. 60d6 is unlikely not to (but why roll 60 dice and add them, when you can just roll one save?)
Also, permanent imprisonment or loss of a limb is worse than death, because you can't just chuck a raise dead on the guy -- but that's a different issue.
Yes, but it's level-dependent. If you have 100 hp, 20d6 is exceptionally unlikely to kill you. 60d6 is unlikely not to (but why roll 60 dice and add them, when you can just roll one save?)
Right, that's exactly my point. Why is it necessary to have the same spell able to kill someone who's nigh-unkillable (500 hp) just as easily as someone much more feeble (50 hp)?
Is there an answer better than "because that's the way it's always been"?
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I learned waaaay back in 1st ed that after a while, piling on damage or stacking up hit points wasn't the focus of the game anymore. It becomes a game of paper/rock/scissors, and that's what the Save or Die effects are all about. Slay Living and Finger of Death are useless against non-living opponents, or living opponents that have the right defense up (Death Ward). For just about every Save or Die (or Save or Suck) effect, there was a countermeasure built into the game. Know your enemy and be prepared, or get ready to have your big rock covered with an even bigger sheet of paper. To me, if you get to the point of even having to roll that save, you've failed.
But even if Save or Die is destined to, well, die, then we've got to find something better than 10hp/CL. Now those spells are cookie-cutter duplicates, different in name only. *yawn* I prefer leaving them in, and barring that, make it a two-save effect, requiring two failed saves to die outright.
For just about every Save or Die (or Save or Suck) effect, there was a countermeasure built into the game. Know your enemy and be prepared, or get ready to have your big rock covered with an even bigger sheet of paper. To me, if you get to the point of even having to roll that save, you've failed.
Wow. Guess my group failed last night. We went into the lair of a "physician" who we expected to be a wizard/necromancer type but turned out to be a bard... and then we found a wizard/necromancer type... and then we opened a door into this room we couldn't scout out before hand. Had no way of knowing what was behind door #3... and lo' an' behold, there was a cleric who rushed our fighter with a Slay Living spell.
Y'know, sometimes, you don't know what's behind door #3. This seems to happen a lot to my gaming group... we'll have a rough idea of what we're getting into, but the specifics of what level or what classes the bad guys have aren't known until we get into the fight. At that point it's a little late to say "Yeah, I could have countered it."
As it was, I convinced the GM to download Alpha 3 so he could use the revised Slay Living spell... and so saved our Fighter from an instant death.
During the time we were waiting for the download and confirmation of what the new slay living does, we talked about our own experiences with save or die/suck spells. One of the guys recalled a game session where he drove 30 minutes to get to the location, then in the first round of combat was trapped in a Force Cage (no save, no ability to do anything) and spent the next 6 hours on the couch twiddling his thumbs while the rest of the group gamed. (I noticed that Force Cage now has a saving throw).
But even if Save or Die is destined to, well, die, then we've got to find something better than 10hp/CL. Now those spells are cookie-cutter duplicates, different in name only. *yawn*
As opposed to the previous versions of Finger of Death and Destruction, which differed wildly in their effects.
;-)
Y'know, sometimes, you don't know what's behind door #3. This seems to happen a lot to my gaming group... we'll have a rough idea of what we're getting into, but the specifics of what level or what classes the bad guys have aren't known until we get into the fight. At that point it's a little late to say "Yeah, I could have countered it."Somebody hand your group a divination spell or four. Seriously, not knowing what's behind door #3 is a failure on the players' part.
There aren't any 3rd level divination spells that allow you to see through a door (that I'm aware of anyway). And, as far as I can tell, Scrying would be the best hope... but that requires knowing the creature behind the door. So, if you don't know who is behind door #3, you won't find out with scrying.
Arcane eye is fine... but requires a hole for the eye to pass through. And, it's limited on the information it provides.
honestly, I just don't see much use in divination prior to level 7 in this case. And, as my group was level 6, we had no way of knowing what was behind door #3. Unless someone can point to me a specific spell that would have worked in this instance (against a cleric with a high will save, btw).
...especially since the save-or-lose spells aren't being changed, and are just as bad.And there's the real problem. Otto's Irresistible Dance might as well be a save or die... correction, a die spell (no save allowed). There isn't any real difference between being dead, and being incapable of actually participating in combat while things can still do stuff to you to make you dead.
As a player, it's fun to cast them on BBEG from time to time... but, I agree, not a particularly fun spell for an interesting encounter. (at least not after that initial chuckle)
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This is going to be one of those issues that play style has a huge impact on. My groups tend to dislike save-or-die, both when having them thrown at them, and WHEN USING THEM. That's because if the wizard uses a big, tough 7th-level spell, and a foe saves, nothing happens (for most, though admittedly not all SoD spells). That causes them to be frustrated when they only get one real action a round (a spell), and it does nothing at all to help. Most non-SoD spells are likely to have some impact even if your foe makes a save, allowing you to make some contribution to the game.
Spell Resistence already gives a lot of higher-level foes options to completely ignore the spellcasters. In my own games, we avoid SoD on top of that.
I don't see this as something that can't be solved with house rules, though. There are still going to be lots of companies making adventures, some will assue SoD, others won't.
And the idea that if you have to roll the save you've already failed is clearly to me an artifact of play style. There's nothing wrong with that style, but it's far from universal.
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Y'know, sometimes, you don't know what's behind door #3. This seems to happen a lot to my gaming group... we'll have a rough idea of what we're getting into, but the specifics of what level or what classes the bad guys have aren't known until we get into the fight. At that point it's a little late to say "Yeah, I could have countered it."Somebody hand your group a divination spell or four. Seriously, not knowing what's behind door #3 is a failure on the players' part.
Ding ding ding! Squirrelloid for the center square and the win!
In addition to listening at the door...
Clairaudience/clairvoyance - S/W 3
Detect Thoughts - S/W 2
Augury - C 2In order of usefulness from best to worst.
Only detect thoughts allows a save of those three on the Cleric's part, and the save doesn't prevent you from detecting there are thoughts there, just from reading those thoughts.
But none of those spells tell you what's behind door #3! They show you that someone is behind door #3... and you might be able to guess at class levels... but is a cleric in full plate going to look different than a fighter in full plate or a paladin in full plate? Detect thoughts only gives you number of beings, not location, and a chance to stun the caster. Using any of those methods, we would have known that someone was behind the door... we would still have opened the door, the cleric would still have charged up and surprised us with a Slay Living spell.
Edit: Just noticed Clairaudience is a 10 minute casting time... there's no way you're going to use that before every door you come across. Forget any buff spells of minute based durations. And what happens if what ever is on the other side of the door hears you outside casting the spell!?!
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Save or Die / Save or Suck spells are way too good in 3.5. I changed all death effects to 2d6/level on a failed save (putting them all in line with Disintegrate), and it worked really well in Living Planar.
The reason they're too good is that they scale faster than equivalent damage spells. For example, you can either shoot a 1000 dragon with a fireball for 1d6/level or with a save or die for 1000 points of damage... a huge disparity in power.
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The reason they're too good is that they scale faster than equivalent damage spells. For example, you can either shoot a 1000 dragon with a fireball for 1d6/level or with a save or die for 1000 points of damage... a huge disparity in power.
Or turn it to stone, or plane shift it, or polymorph it, or make it dance for a while.... seriously, just piling up hit points and ramping up the damage has always stopped around "name" level in D&D. It has always been the case that you don't beat the big nasty with damage once you are in double-digit levels, why should it change now?
And if your party can only cast 3rd level spells and the DM is throwing CL9+ foes at you with Slay Living spells, a lack of efficient divinations might not be your biggest problem.
I agree save or die spells must stay in. The main reason I came to look at Pathfinder was as an alternative to 4E.
This is very bad I think
We have already taken away some of the lethaity of the game with adding more healing now we are taking away Save or Dies
I think this is very bad and make me fell like this game is going "soft" on the characters
this really lowers the threat of death for characters
I agree, and it also puts pathfinder a step closer to 4th edition.
Most of their customers were going to be people who hate 4th edition and praised paizo for sticking to 3.5
I agree, and it also puts pathfinder a step closer to 4th edition.
Most of their customers were going to be people who hate 4th edition and praised paizo for sticking to 3.5
Then why don't you just play 3.5 then?
I am all for nerfing anything that makes a game less fun. If your idea of fun is to bet everything on one roll of the die, then have fun with your save or die russian roulette. I like tactical, strategic combat mixed with heavy roleplay. I'm for removing save or die spells or altering them to deal damage.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'd mentioned before, one nice thing of 'Finger of hurts a lot' is that failed save aspect.
3.x "Take that evil guy! Destruction!"
*makes save* "Take what?"
3.P "Take that evil guy! Destruction!"
*Makes save* Ouch ouch ouch.
Plus since damage stacks, it assures that the figther's chopping on the dragon is complimented by the Save or Ouch, not
"I've got him now boys! Only 20 HP left!"
*Wizard casts finger of death*
"You couldn't have done that to start with?"
"Sorry, you seemed to be having fun."
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I am all for nerfing anything that makes a game less fun. If your idea of fun is to bet everything on one roll of the die, then have fun with your save or die russian roulette. I like tactical, strategic combat mixed with heavy roleplay. I'm for removing save or die spells or altering them to deal damage.
Remember that fun is relative. Some people jog for fun.
Personally, I dont think i'm completely in your corner on "nerfing" everything that might make the game less fun - thats a bit extreme; BUT for me, the save or die spells make too much of a negative impact to make them overly fun - and so I'm all for making it a save or dmg - and still firmly stand on the notion of a second (Will save this time) to shrug off the spell or die with a second save - I can live with that.
As a DM, who enjoys long campaigns and continuity of the story and immersion with the characters I know that I (and other DMs in my circle) are hesitant to pull that trigger with such spells as it may derail the story or continuity of that story in regards to a specific character in the party - that may or may not be able to be returned to the story (maybe he can but it will be a while since the party is not in a position to restore the character).
I'm running Shackled City right now - what if the Shackleborn character, or the haunted dream aspect or the character that receives the Smoking Eye template is destroyed with one of these - it makes hesistation to use them - they are less fun - and I'm okay with the change - but feel that those wanting them in have a point and I feel a safe middle-ground is FORT save first (damage); WILL save next round - (DIE, or no more affect).
Robert
What about having spells like Finger of Death or Slay Living reduce an character to -1 hit points and he/she begins to die (dying rules) on a failed save? It takes the character immediately out of combat, yet still allows the character some hope of survival. Of course that depends on the stabization roll or a little team work. Even with help, you would not immediately be at 100% without a Heal spell.
I know after building a character up to a high level and to get hit by ones of those spells sucks. It turns your stomach. Yeah you can probably get raised, but you still feel that sickness when that happens. LOL.
I believe the rules for death I prefer to use would work very well with the SoD affects in question.
Death
Weakened- When and if a creature is brought to or below 10% of its maximum hit points the creatures body begins to weaken and at that point is only able to do (1) standard or move action (if both actions are used the creature loses 1 hp). This is due to the total damage done to the creature in question and this penalty can be removed by bringing the creature above 10%. If damage is enough that the creature goes from above 10% or more to death -1hp move straight to the rules on death.
(I thought about attaching a Fortitude DC check to this rule to negate the penalty but due to the percentage rule I found it would not balance out unless it was a set DC, for some classes have more hp than others) maybe though a feat this could be done
Unconscious- This is when the creature is at 0hp and happens either threw damage that brings you to exactly 0 or threw the use of a heal check (stabilized) or any type of healing. The first healing magic (short of a heal spell) used no matter what strength brings the creature to an unconscious state (0hp). When at 0hp if able to the creature falls prone.
Death- Once a creature reaches -1 hp, for all intensive purposes the creature is dead and if able, falls to the ground prone. When the creature’s hp reach -1 its body starts to shut down and soul begins to leave. This happens during the point of -1 and lasts until -9 hit points at which point the creature in question is still able to be saved but only during these 9 rounds. Once the creature reaches -10 hit points true death occurs at which point only magical means (raise dead, etc.) can be used to bring back the creature. This rule holds true unless otherwise stated.
With this rule it does not matter how many hit points you had prior to death for when death occurs you start at -1hps no matter what (a fighter with 21 hit points and a wizard with 2 hit points are caught in a fireball that does 28 hit points damage. The fighter fails his save and the wizard passes hers so the fighter takes full damage and the wizard takes half. Both of the characters caught in the fireball die but instead of the fighter being at -7 and the wizard at -12 they are both at -1 and on their way to true death). Now the party has until -9 to save the characters which give them a chance to revive their characters.
Any damage done after the round that the creature is brought to -1 is added and therefore the creature can still be killed one round after death occurs bring the creature to true death.
A coup de grace can also be done at this time to bring the creature to true death.
Massive damage still applies , bringing the creature to -1.