Hello! I figured I would start this, since it was my suggestion.
The goal is two-fold here first it is to give Jason and the rest of the Paizo crew a genuine gauge as to how many of the players and DMs wish to use Psionics in their games using the Pathfinder RPG system. Secondly it is to provide them with insight on their player base as to how and what we think should be included in a seperate Pathfinder Psionics Handbook.
note: weird, tried posting this before but it didn't go through. @_@
Ok, I will add my feelings about Psionics in here (I fear you won't like em):
In general I really like psionics. I like the idea of mind over body and the activation of unused brain potential, etc.
BUT I don't like this mixed up with magic. There is just neither the need for it nor is it a good idea (in regards to flavor)
Everytime psionics where introduced IN ADDITION to magic, there were always trouble and problems.
If I wan't to play FANTASY, I wan't magic and no psychics running around.
BUT I might like to see a (fantasy?) setting where psionics REPLACE magic, maybe something in combination with eastern stuff (think about monks as psychic warriors...)
That's my point so far. It's quite hot in my city right now and I can't think that clearly right now, so I hope you got my point...
Ok, I will add my feelings about Psionics in here (I fear you won't like em):
In general I really like psionics. I like the idea of mind over body and the activation of unused brain potential, etc.
BUT I don't like this mixed up with magic. There is just neither the need for it nor is it a good idea (in regards to flavor)
Everytime psionics where introduced IN ADDITION to magic, there were always trouble and problems.
If I wan't to play FANTASY, I wan't magic and no psychics running around.
BUT I might like to see a (fantasy?) setting where psionics REPLACE magic, maybe something in combination with eastern stuff (think about monks as psychic warriors...)That's my point so far. It's quite hot in my city right now and I can't think that clearly right now, so I hope you got my point...
On a general principle I do not dislike your opinion. I respect it actually.
I think of Psionics as magical and as much a part of Fantasy as magic is. I think of psionics as another form of magic. To me there are Divine, Arcane, and Psionic magic.
To explain a bit more and so that I might clarify what I mean is, I looke at Psionics as a different type of magic much like different cultures may use different ways and different means of using tools that they have at their disposal. Not every culture develops using the same tools as another.
The one issue where I do have a problem with psionics is the power and complexity of some of the abilities. A lot of abuse can come and has come from that and I think it's a big reason of why a lot of people dislike it.
I would love to see psionics in PF. I've been a manifester of one sort or another in several other campaigns and prefer them to casters. The only reason I'm not playing a manifester in the Rise of the Rune Lords campaign I'm currently in is because there was nothing stating that psionics existed in the game world.
I have no major issues with the current psionic mechanic other than some of the damaging powers and their power point costs (Don't worry, I won't drag the level/damage cap argument into this thread).
What I would like to see is less psionic versions of arcane and divine spells and more augmentation options for powers based on the type of manifester. For example, a telepath should be able to use Read Thoughts better than a nomad who spent a feat to gain the power. I feel that this would help better differentiate psions of varying disciplines from one another.
What I don't want to see is a psionic equivalent of the PF specialty wizard or cleric's spell-like abilities gained by level. Manifesters are not spellcasters and therefore should be treated differently. There's no need to mirror the wizard or cleric in this respect.
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I would like to see a side by side comparison of a OGL SRD 3.5 Psion against any of the Pathfinder Characters to see how the power shapes up. Once that is done, it would be easier to see what suggestions could be made.
If this has been done, please provide a link please so it can be viewed and reflected upon in this thread.
My thought is that the Pathfinder character will come out ahead, but seeing it in print might be for the best.
Thanks in advance if anyone is working on this.
I have no major issues with the current psionic mechanic other than some of the damaging powers and their power point costs (Don't worry, I won't drag the level/damage cap argument into this thread).
What I would like to see is less psionic versions of arcane and divine spells and more augmentation options for powers based on the type of manifester. For example, a telepath should be able to use Read Thoughts better than a nomad who spent a feat to gain the power. I feel that this would help differentiate psions of varying disciplines from one another.
I agree with you here. Most of the classes are constructed well as a base to work from. The only real concern for me is clarify-ing some of the powers to curtail abuse as much as possible. Aswell as try to tweak the damage/level cap to be equal to other casters.
Adding more psionic type magic that is unique would be very welcomed.
I think Psionics would work in a fantasy setting if you start with the premise that Psionics is just a form of spellcasting that does not require material, somatic, or verbal components.
So a Psionisist is just a different kind of spellcaster, much in the same way a Bard casts arcane spells but they ALL require verbal components. A fantasy Psion could be an "arcane" caster whose spells do not have V,S,or M components. Obviously this gets us far away from what the 3.5 Psion is, but I think we need to do that anyway to make the Psion palatable for Pathfinder, otherwise people can just keep using their existing Psi books.
In short the my Psion would a spontaneous caster class that has no spell components expect mental focus and a unique spell list.
I'm just curious as to why we can't keep the Psionic rules as they are and import them into Pathfinder?
Psionics is in the SRD as OGL content, is it not? From my experience with Psionics in 3.5e, it's a fairly balanced mechanic.
And if we want to maintain backward compatibility, we don't want to come up with entirely new mechanics for psionics.
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So.. why exactly would Psionics not fit with Pathfinder as it stands? As far as I can see all it would take is a few skill tweaks and maybe some problem powers tweaked in line with the spells that were changed (polymorph, etc).
I'm just curious as to why we can't keep the Psionic rules as they are and import them into Pathfinder?
Psionics is in the SRD as OGL content, is it not? From my experience with Psionics in 3.5e, it's a fairly balanced mechanic.
And if we want to maintain backward compatibility, we don't want to come up with entirely new mechanics for psionics.
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So.. why exactly would Psionics not fit with Pathfinder as it stands? As far as I can see all it would take is a few skill tweaks and maybe some problem powers tweaked in line with the spells that were changed (polymorph, etc).
I am with yeah there I don't see a need to redesign them.
I'm just curious as to why we can't keep the Psionic rules as they are and import them into Pathfinder?
Psionics is in the SRD as OGL content, is it not? From my experience with Psionics in 3.5e, it's a fairly balanced mechanic.
And if we want to maintain backward compatibility, we don't want to come up with entirely new mechanics for psionics.
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So.. why exactly would Psionics not fit with Pathfinder as it stands? As far as I can see all it would take is a few skill tweaks and maybe some problem powers tweaked in line with the spells that were changed (polymorph, etc).
That IS the idea. Just tweaks to make everything more clear rules wise so that nothing can be abused. The classes work for the most part just fine as is. I guess I was not clear enough in the opening, it's just to show support and also to list what we want to see in a Psionics Handbook. Of course we want the open content in there. But it's not like we can't add any extras as a bonus.
The goal is mostly just tweaking psionic manifestations and any feats to be more inline with already been changed in the PFRPG. Possibly adding new content and most of all, showing support for Psionics.
I apologize if I wasn't clear enough before.
The goal is mostly just tweaking psionic manifestations and any feats to be more inline with already been changed in the PFRPG. Possibly adding new content and most of all, showing support for Psionics.
I don't think there's really a need to include/update/tweak every psionic classes either. As previously mentioned in another thread, a niche part of Golarian could have a psionics but doesn't necessarily need to include psions, wilders, psychic warriors, and soulknives.
It could be that long lost society had developed psychic powers over the centuries in order to better fend off ancient psionic menace. This could be easily represented by simply having psychic warriors and core classes with the wild or hidden talent feats and doesn't entail including the wilder, psion, or soulknife classes.
My big beef with psionics is the feats like Up the Walls, Deep Impact, Mental Leap and the like. You just wouldn't see these sort of feats tied to being able to cast spells, why are they okay if you throw psionics in (but don't have a psionic class)?
And then the anti-psionic feats like Hostile Mind...Why introduce a system that a couple of feats practically allow you to shut down its users?
And then, there is the Annulus...
I concur with the fellow earlier. I see arcane, divine, and psionic FX with areas where they overlap. Personally, I ran psionics as a branch of magic. Did Up the Walls cause problems? Yes, it did.
But the breakage of a few feats doesn't invalidate the entire effort. One of the reasons I'd like to see psionics in base-book PF is it WOULD be balanced with the rest of the classes and abilities.
If that means that some air gets let out of the psion's tires, I can live with that.
But don't even TRY telling me I can't have an NPC gypsy who always knows the given name of the person she's talking to and gets aches in her bones when there's going to be danger next week. Yes, I could go about that magically; but it still seems psionic to me.
I *do* concur that seeing a mirror of another class is NOT the way I want the psionic to look. But I've no problem with them using the level-slot system that the rest of the FX guys have to use.
Too many ideas to focus, I'll stop posting here.
I actually wouldn't mind seeing psionic limited in effects they can produce in order to solidly their niche. Sticking with the stereotypical psionic themes (i.e ESP, mind control, telepathy, telekinesis, precognition, mind over body, psychokinetics) and limiting the spellcasters' ability in producing those same affects would help in making the manifester more unique and standout.
Thematically, I felt 2e psionics did a great job in this regard and that there was little overlap with magic .
I apologize if I wasn't clear enough before.
I think you were clear enough, I was mostly responding to the others that were talking about changing the Psionics drastically, or saying that it wouldn't be able to fit within the PF class system.
Here's the basics:
- For backward compatibility, we can't change the way psionics work too much. Power points have to stay. Manifester level, overchanneling, etc, has to remain.
- There needs to be a decision whether they want to just keep the same flavour, and the same fanbase, or change the flavour and try and expand the fanbase for psionics.
- If you keep things the same, then import all the same feats and tweak them for balance. If something seems too powerful, or if those that play psionics can give playtest results for those feats or powers and say which are needing tweaking, then that's what should be changed.
- If you want to change things to include a greater fanbase, then tweak the powers list to be more focused on this new theme, and possibly remove some feats that don't fit this theme anymore.
The only problem with this is that you may ruin compatibility with campaigns and modules that use 3.5e psionics.
There are several Feats outside the OGL that allow you to shut down mages pretty hard. I forget their names, but the first one in the chain lets you prevent other casters from casting defensively if you threaten them. And that's the first Feat in the chain.Also, Reserve Feats have similar effects to Psionic Feats, with the major exception being that they depend on having specific spells memorized rather than having specific amounts of Power Points and possibly other restrictions.
Personally, I have come to the realization that Reserve feats are bad/wrong and they won't be making a show in my future campaigns (The last one I did allow Reserve feats, and their use/abuse is the direct reason why they won't be appearing. Great idea, terrible implementation in 3.5).
A feat to disrupt spellcasting doesn't seem to out of line - it mostly sounds like an enhancement of the ready action (i.e., ready action to attack caster when he starts casting a spell). Any of those other feats in the chain you mention would probably be out of line for use in the game, but I'd have to know the specifics to be sure.
However, feats like Hostile Mind seem like a backdoor attempt by WotC to tell psionic nay-sayers "If you really want to make proponents of Psionics pick up their marbles and go play somewhere else, here's a few tools to do so..."
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Overall, I don't have a problem with psionics, but then again nobody's used them in my campaign yet. My only encounter with them has been designing a few psionic-enabled creatures, but I've yet to use them in a full-blown campaign.
Just so you know, I am a big fan of Psionics and the flavor they bring to the game. I took the time to put together a Psionic monk over on the other general thread, which I may end up posting here as this seems to be the place for the ideas about psionics. And may I say I am very excited to see what Paizo is gonna do in that regard. But on to other things.
So most of the problems and complaints I see from the other thread (you know the one) comes from the ‘Nova Effect’. Even James Jacobs mentions it, considering it an unbalancing effect. He would rather see a removal of the point-based system because of this problem. Now he didn’t say what with, and he did say that
If there were a stronger penalty associated with overclocking your powers, I guess I'd be more okay with it is what I'm saying.
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Well how about trying this on for size, a simple little addition to the rules;
Now you may say that players will only pick kineticists to play because of the powers involved. To that I say, is that the only type of players you can find? If all they want to do is blast something, and don’t even look at the others, then they are munchkins anyways.
Regulating the PP expendurture might be needed. Something like…
Some examples of play?
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#2
#3
#4
Will this cut down on the ‘overclocking’ problem? No, but this might.
I think these tweaks would answer some of the problems people have with the system. The first part makes a greater reason for differences between disciplines rather than just a list of powers. The second raises the cost (or lowers the power) of a lot of the straight-out offensive powers, and the third part addresses the Nova Effect, putting some risk to it. These were some of the main arguments made about the present system. Does anyone think this addresses these issues? Can anyone see any backwards-compatibility problems? Individual powers can be worked on on a case by case basis.
Anyways, I need some sleep…
I like psionics. I am also somewhat concerned on how their balance works with other characters just like I'm concerned that pure-Vancian casting might have similar issues. This doesn't mean I want Vancian magic or Power point manifesting to go away. I just won't be someone who cries out it one or both are replaced with some other form of casting if that works.
All I care about is that it feels similar or the same even if it uses different mechanics, if that makes any sense.
What I think is a problem with psionics is that a psionic character going "nova" can just manifest their most powerful highest level power over and over again. I'm less concerned about augmented powers since, I feel, that even when augmented that they are weaker than non-augmented powers with the same cost.
My idea on how to adjust this is simply add a penalty for manifesting their highest level power. The penalty would be that, until they regain their power points by resting, they number of power points they can spend manifesting a single power is reduced by one (for that class). A 5th level psion could manifest one 3rd level power then, until he rested, could only be able to spend 4 power points per power. He would no longer be able to manifest 3rd level powers that day (barring things that increase the power point limit like overchannel or maybe the Wilder's wild surge).
This limits the number of max powers a psion can do as well as slow down their nova speed for the rest of the day (they are able to spend less points in a round so it would take more rounds to manifest powers).
This is a drop in power however for the classes so I believe it would be appropriate to say that this all the psions have to give up to be able to get nifty PRPG abilities that can be used at will and so on.
There is precedence for at-will effects... things like "If you have focus". Make the Disciplines into more like how the Schools are (special bonuses at certain levels, some at will abilities, etc).
This makes expending your focus that much more dramatic of a drawback too.
What's wrong with 3.5 psionics. Its reasonably balanced, more so than arcane or divine spellcasting are by orders of magnitude.
I'd like to start by reminding folks that I'm a HUGE psionics fan. I mean, just look at my name, Battlemind is the D20 Modern merging of the Psychic Warrior and Soulknife classes.
There was only one beef I ever had with the damaging or psychokinetic/telekinetic powers was... why did the powers mimic Wizardly elemental effects so much?
It seemed to me that (with the exception of pyrokinetic and cryokinetic effects,) the remaining damage types that should be applicable to a psychokinetic attack power (such as Energy Ball, for example) should be Bludgeoning, Slashing, Piercing, and Force, instead of Sonic, Acid* (????), or Electricity.
*: and since when is Acid energy? Seems to me, IIRC, that acids are a function of the PH balance of matter. Or maybe (as the fundies keep claiming) that everything science tells us is wrong...
Drow - Acid was never an energy available to psions using the Energy XXX powers.
I think that a few powers need erratas, that the races and feats might need to be brought "in line" with what Paizo is doing with the basic races and that the classes might need a small overhaul. However, the system is good, generally balanced and works well.
Drow - Acid was never an energy available to psions using the Energy XXX powers.
I think that a few powers need erratas, that the races and feats might need to be brought "in line" with what Paizo is doing with the basic races and that the classes might need a small overhaul. However, the system is good, generally balanced and works well.
Not in the damaging powers, but it was included in *Energy* Adaptation. And again, my former ranks of A+ in science class leads me to wonder why WotC includes ACID as a form of energy???
Actually that was addressed in the Rules Compendium - there is no "realistic" reason why acid damage is treated as energy damage, but as a damage type in terms of game effects it functions in largely the same way. As a consequence, it's balled in.
Personally, I think that if they're going to keep calling it an "energy" effect, it should be renamed something like ENTROPIC or CORROSIVE or something like that.
Mind you, I'm not going to stand on a large podium with a bullhorn and demand that WotC change the terminology, I'm just saying that this is my *opinion*, nothing more, nothing less.
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Psionics and Magic are the twin sisters of the supernatural Mystic Arts.
To me, psionics is just another flavor of the supernatural that is present in ALL genres of speculative fiction regardless of time and/or place. It is another form of the mystic arts that can be found through out the mythologies and histories of the various cultures of the human race.
Magic has many names and comes in many forms. Some who uses this mystic art of may channel the will of their deity to bend reality to their will. Others could use the paraphernalia of a 'High Science' to achieve the same effect. Some were born with the ability to bend reality to their will by manipulating the raw stuff of magic that suffuses and surrounds all things.
Psionics is also know by many names but it seems to boil down into one specific form: using the power of the awakened sentient mind to bend reality to its will. Those who use this mystic art may tap into the unbridled fury of raw emotion or use the sheer force of their conscious mind to bend reality to their will. No kowtowing to supernatural beings. No mumbo-jumbo. No slavery to random, dumb luck. Mind over Matter.
One coin. Two sides.
For the most part I think the expanded psionics rules are fine as they are. I'd like to see some of the spell-clone powers removed and more powers that play to the uniqueness of psionics added. I'd also like to see the Soulknife get some love.
That being said I think that if we want to see this done then we are going to have to do it ourselves. I've heard good stuff about the Dreamscarred Press stuff but I haven't had a chance to check it out myself.
Maybe they could do a Pathfinder Psionics Handbook?
SM
The more I think about it, the more I think we're jumping the proverbial gun here. The Paizo guys have basically said that they aren't looking at adding anything psionic into the beta, unless there is an overwhelming response, which, honestly, I can't see happening. Just looking at this thread is an indicator of, while it does have some solid support, it won't be something they will be aiming at for a core book.
Now let's not fret about that, my psionic free-minded allies. One of the major complaints happening from the nay-sayers is that the psionic classes were all overpowered, especially with their ability to continuously shoot off their high-powered stuff, while the wizard gets reduced to playing with their cantrips. If you look at it correctly, though, the new setup for the core classes may help to balance things out more to how they want them. The power-point system may not need to be changed at all. That is not to say that some powers don't need a little tweaking, but that is a different topic.
Besides, by the sounds of it, psionics may be a bit down the priority scale in things that Paizo needs to tackle. What we should probably be doing is playing our adventures, using the same psionic system we all know and love, alongside the new PRPG rules and seeing if there are any good things that we should mention to the Paizo crew, along with all the bad points.
I mean who knows, the Psychic Warrior might become as effective as a regular warrior with the new options given to the core classes. We need to give our favorite classes test-runs within the new dynamics and see how they do. That way, when Paizo starts looking at the Isle of Bengay or whatever it is, and the people of Vudra, the test run is already there, and they can see what conceptually fits into their world. And, hey, if we don't like it, it's all backwards compatible anyways, so nothing to cry over.(Oh, it's Jalmeray, my bad)
Even if they were to change around how psionics works, I probably wouldn't care. Paizo does a fair job of listening to what we have to say, and whatever they come up with is bound to be fun to run with anyways. Maybe it will be a Path system, where you pick a starting power and follow a linear path of powers, with a few branches to that, which are usable a certain number of times a day. Or maybe an elemental system like the oriental spell-system with a mechanic like skills. But remember, they can do that and call it psionics, and we can still use 3.5 psionics too. Let's have fun with it people!
Oh, as an aside, most of the acid-based powers that I've found are based off of Psychometabolism. Don't know if this a for or against for your discssion, but I just thought I should point it out...
I agree with StarMartyr365 100%...
I see psionics as the third type of magic... Perhaps it helps having played Rolemaster, where the types of magic were Essence (arcane), Channeling (divine) and Mentalism (yes, psionics). By the way, Rolemaster bards used Mentalism...
So having a special kind of magic that uses the energies within the caster instead of outside forces does not seems to me "sci-fi" or out of touch with the fantasy genre. A large part of the magics we read about in a lot of books are in fact more reminiscent of psionics, and if it's the fluff that takes back some people, there's nothing easier to change.
In short, I want psionics in Pathfinder, be they core or in its own handbook, and I don't feel the need to redesign the whole system.
Here's something that wad discussed at WotC's 4E message boards, on a thread about psionics.
One really useful concept is that arcane magic, divine magic, and psionics are three co-existent and co-equal mental sources of power. Each has its own individual strengths and weaknesses. Each has unique abilities, abilities it shares with one other power source, and abilities that are common to all three. It can be visualized by the primary color Venn diagram.
If Pathfinder can distinguish arcane magic from divine magic (perhaps renaming the latter as something other than magic), and then distinguish both from psionics, and treat all three equally, it would be perfect for me.