A magic weapon has a 50% chance + 10% per point of enhancement bonus to deal damage normally.
I like the idea. Given that you need a magic weapon to have *any* chance of hitting an incorp. opponent, I'd probably make it 40% +10% per point of enhancement bonus. Ditto for armor. This means even +5 weapons/armour have a 10% chance of failing.
Not so sure about the spells thing though...
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OR you get rid of the % garbage that's been stinking up the place since most of us stopped playing AD&D years ago and give them an AC bonus for being incorporeal.
THEN make ghosttouch weapons add + tohit and damage to equal out the AC that Incorporeal creatures get.
You know, I was against % for things like concealment too, but then I had my mind changed over in another thread.
I like the idea of 40 or 50% + 10% per +. It makes sense. Maybe for spells, base it on the level of the caster, not on the level of the spell, otherwise the caster is going to have to burn all her high-level spells (even if their effects are overkill) just to get penetration.
OR you get rid of the % garbage that's been stinking up the place since most of us stopped playing AD&D years ago and give them an AC bonus for being incorporeal.
*nods in agreement*
Incorporability is often unbalancing, as offense and defense against incorporeal opponents are almost completely unrelated to those against corporeal opponents.
Either eliminating the whole idea (pro: getting rid of the army of spectres/shadows hiding and travelling in the ground) or at least bring the combat abilities in line with others (DR or AC boni + bonus on attack rolls) (pro: no fluff/tactic change).
I was really happy when they removed the DR issue of requiring +# or better weapons to bypass, and just made it "magic", and doing this re-introduces the mechanic. I don't think it makes any sense for a weapon, no matter how supernaturally sharp, to strike something that isn't material, regardless, whatever. It doesn't matter. You're using a material object. It is an immaterial being. The 50% miss chance is used to allow people a chance if they aren't fully prepeared for the fight. It's a stretch at the best.
A 50% miss chance isn't an horrific ordeal. It's an obstacle to be overcome, usually by a wand of moon blade.
I don't think the hit bonus of a magic weapon is solely a matter of "sharpness" any more than a spells ability to hit or damage is. It's the magic in the weapon that increases your chance / makes it possible. It makes sense for arcane energy (even if contained in a material focus -- a sword for example) to hit an immaterial (and probably arcane) being. Magic weapons can hit certain creatures because the weapon is magic, not just sharp. A bonus to hit noncorporeal creatures is a good idea, but it would be nice to keep the percentages out of it and rely on the d20. As other posters have noted, the percentage thing gets messy, involving as it does another roll / mechanic.
The suggestions, while interesting, aren't a good return on investment as they add more steps/calculations to a combat without any real gain. If the campaign has a heavy concentration of undead the PCs will make an effort to get ghost touch weapons and armor. If you allow the Magic Item Compendium there are armor and weapon crystals which confer ghost touch like bonuses for modest cost. If incorporeal undead are rare then a few fights will be more difficult and likely memorable. I like the 50/50, I always have plenty of d6s on hand. I'd rather not get involved with variable miss chances for each PC based on their weapon bonus or spell level. Besides, even with a d12 undead are pretty fragile since they lack a con bonus. The incorporeal miss chance makes them a viable threat and spares them from being swiftly dispatched.
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OR you get rid of the % garbage that's been stinking up the place since most of us stopped playing AD&D years ago and give them an AC bonus for being incorporeal.
THEN make ghosttouch weapons add + tohit and damage to equal out the AC that Incorporeal creatures get.
and what about those of us who learned to play with 3.5 and like percentile rolls. Personally I'm kinda bugged at attempts to get rid of the other dice rolls. If I always wanted to use the same type of dice I'd play GURPS or WoD. I like every opportunity to use all of the polyhedrons in my collection. Heck I'm bummed I have no use for my D5 as it stands.
To avoid annoying my players, who often get tragically bad rolls when fighting anything undead/incorporeal, I just use the rule 50% miss chance (from being incorporeal) = 50% damage. It stops somone doing a great, lucky hit for awesome damage, and then being told "you do 0 hit points" roll after roll after roll.
It also makes bookkeeping much easier, and a player still has fun doing a lucky hit for 32(=16 damage) than unlucky hit after unlucky hit doing absolutely nothing. I like it, it's pretty simple.
There seems to be an unsightly amount of inevitable pressure to get ghost touch weapons/armor and force spells as a precaution. To alleviate that pressure while maintaining the usefulness of ghost touch property and force spells, here is a proposed solution.
My group loves the Ghostwalk book/setting which involves a lot of Ghost Touch items and incorporeal foes, so we've got quite a lot of experience with these rules.
In all honesty it's the difference between prepared or not that makes a difference to the encounter. So if the PCs are expecting ghosts etc. they tend to do well as there are other ways they can compensate without Ghost Touch items.
The miss % on attack rolls is balanced fine, it simply takes longer for the PCs to resolve the fight. If anything, the difference a suit of Ghost Touch armor makes is much larger. Most incorporeal creatures don't have stellar attack rolls, so without the AC bonus it's wiser to try to keep your opponent at range - not so easy when they can float right through stuff!
I'd vote not to change these rules. If the DM is throwing a lot of incorporeal monsters at the PCs then the PCs should either get some Ghost Touch treasure or splash out on the kit they need, e.g scrolls of force spells, Ghost Touch manacles, Ghost Touch weapons and armor etc.
Peace,
tfad
Seems to me that this is an idea that increases player character power and makes the game more complex. But I think that we should not be giving more power to players -- the alpha rules already do that. I think we should not be making the game more complex -- simple systems are more elegant.
::laughs and puts on old curmudgeon hat::
I remember back in the day when if you needed a +2 weapon to hit a spectre or a fire elemental, you had ZERO chance to do damage with a lesser weapon. At low level, if we had to fight a wererat, the one guy with a silver dagger got to fight, and the rest of us slung silver pieces at it, because there was no sweet sweet damage reduction -- if all you had was a plain sword, you could not touch that rat!
And if you got hit by poison, you saved or DIED! First level light spell in your eyes? BLINDED! Nonlethal damage against trolls? NO SUCH THING! We fought hard odds against a deck stacked to screw us, and we liked it! You namby pamby kids these days! 'Boo hoo! My 50% miss chance is too hard! I roll bad!' Cry me a time machine, so I can take you all back to when real heroes duked it out with truly deadly foes, and still won! Or went down swinging!
::takes off old curmudgeon hat, hoping everyone else is laughing too::
Seriously, what's wrong with a simple 50% miss chance?
Mechanistically, trading a 50% miss chance for a simple half damage does not increase player power, nor is it more complex. That's an idea we could use. Still. in the interest of backward compatibility and keeping the new game like the existing one, I'm still not convinced that half damage is an improvement over a 50% miss chance.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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At low level, if we had to fight a wererat, the one guy with a silver dagger got to fight, and the rest of us slung silver pieces at it, because there was no sweet sweet damage reduction -- if all you had was a plain sword, you could not touch that rat!
::takes off old curmudgeon hat, hoping everyone else is laughing too::
Seriously, what's wrong with a simple 50% miss chance?
Mechanistically, trading a 50% miss chance for a simple half damage does not increase player power, nor is it more complex. That's an idea we could use. Still. in the interest of backward compatibility and keeping the new game like the existing one, I'm still not convinced that half damage is an improvement over a 50% miss chance.
There's a lovely explination of the miss chance mechanic in KQ (1 or 2 I think) Basically it's set as the great equalizer. Nanoc the Knight could have a +5000, abiltiy to smash through armour with ease, but if he can't touch it, he can't hit it.
As to the silver piece thing. I had a 2e rogue with Balastic attack as a wild talent. as a matter of style always threw silver pieces. Everyone thought it funny, until we fought the werewolf.
I'd vote to keep the miss chance, but allow for feats, abilities, magic and items that can reduce it. A bonus to AC DOES NOT equate to the usefulness and difference that a miss chance confers to creatures.
Blind-Fight, for example, would be a lot more useful if it also worked against incorporeal creatures as well. Another feat that worked off blind-fight to help reduce miss chance would be welcome.
There are already several spells and magic items that help against incorporealness; ghost touch, force spells and items and the like already exist. I believe there is also a feat to make spells effective against incorporeal beings - Reach spell, I think it is.
One question we've had come up, and I'm not sure which way to rule. Since Bracers of Armor are created with the Mage Armor spell, do they provide their protection against incorporeal attacks? Nothing in the item description indicates it does, just that it provides an armor bonus.