Does anyone know if Paizo has any plans to alter or fix this PRC. It is OGL, specifically from the DMG. What it lacks is unique mechanics or flavor. It basically is a Fighter's BAB with continued spellcasting advancement. Other than that, it serves no purpose. Any ideas?
Well, it's there to fix fighter/wizard multiclassing. If it has any mechanics or flavor that are not "this is a multiclassed fighter/wizard", it's straying from its purpose.
Now, I'll agree that it's less than perfect at its role. I'd make it a fifteen-level class, and reduce the spellcasting entry requirement to 1st level arcane spells, and balance that by swapping the BAB to cleric. Effectively, you'd get to "gish" effectively earlier in your career than with the current eldritch knight, and still have the same effective long-term BAB.
Then I'd probably come up with some minor "you got your arcane in my warrior" powers along the line, but very mild ones compared to wizard powers because this would already have the BAB/HP/saves improvement over wizard.
This is all assuming no magic solution to spell progression for multiclassers suddenly appears; if it does, I'd probably just drop the Eldritch Knight entirely.
The "unique mechanics or flavor" of the eldritch knight is the full BAB and 9/10 arcane spellcasting progression. No other PrC (except for the broken abjurant champion) grants full BAB and (almost) full arcane spellcasting progression. The only change I'd make would be to increase the HD to d8, but otherwise the PrC is fine IMO.
An alternate "gish" would be the battle sorcerer in the SRD.
Compare the Eldritch Knight to the [Illithid] Slayer from the XPH or the SRD. It's got the same BAB, saves and caster/manifester progression, as well as a load of class abilities. Doesn't really make the Eldritch Knight look worthwhile.
Ilithid slayer and abjurant champion are the two most broken PrCs ever devised. I know this because I foolishly allowed them in a fit of generosity, and pretty soon every character in the campaign was one or the other. Comparing EldKt to these travesties of classes is like comparing the cleric class to the cleric's god.
With regards to the EldKt, I'm with Dragonchess Player 100%. Bump the HD to d8 (because the wizard and sorcerers now have d6's), or even d10 (because of the HD/BAB standardization), and you're good to go.
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Eldritch Knight is just fine as is. If anything I would increase the hit dice as others have said to bring it in line with the other changes to hit dice seen in PRPG. Having a full base attack progression along with 9/10 caster progression is simply awesome. I also agree that the Abjurant Champion is broken. The most common build I see from it is...
Swashbuckler 3 (to get your melee damage increased by your int bonus)/Fighter 1 (for the bonus feat and the extra +1 to BAB needed to qualify for entrance)/Wizard 2 (for arcane spells and one more +1 BAB)/Abjurant Champion 5 (for all the cheese)/Eldritch Knight 9 (to finish up).
In that instance you get a figther/wizard with a BAB of +19, Spellcasting as per a 15th level Wizard with an effective CL of 19th due to Practiced Spellcaster. Using Greater Mage Armor and Shield, you get a base AC of 30 not counting Dex. Since you are modifying Melee damage with Int you don't have to put anything in strength and can have a high Dex. It isn't uncommon for characters with this combo of classes to have AC's in the mid to high 40's by 10th level. Take the Arcane Strike feat and all your melee attacks can be further bumped up with a +8 to attacks and +8d4 damage per attack, and that is even if you don't treat the Arcane Strike as a free action. Get a spell storing keen rapier and you have a weapon you can store an orb spell in that also threatens a crit on a 15-20 and has its attack bonus modified by dex (thanks to the swashbucklers free combat expertise) and damage modified by int (also thanks to the swashbuckler).
If you want to see just how ridiculously cheesy this is, read PH Dungeons Savage Tide Campaign Journal. One of his players (Argent) is this exact build. You can also sub in a few levels of Argent Savant and you can increase those Force based magical armor spells by another +2 each. I like the premise behind the abjurant champion, but they need to increase the entrance requirements, reduce the spellcasting to every other level or change the base attack to the cleric or something to make it less broken.
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Does anyone know if Paizo has any plans to alter or fix this PRC. It is OGL, specifically from the DMG. What it lacks is unique mechanics or flavor. It basically is a Fighter's BAB with continued spellcasting advancement. Other than that, it serves no purpose. Any ideas?
I think it needs minor fixes only. I would agree with later posters that a bump to D8 is in order since the wizard has been stepped up to the D6.
I was always very partial to the spellsword class abilities, and perhaps simply giving a "reduce arcane spell failure by 5%" at every even level would add some of the special "flair" the class seems to be missing. Or, for a contrasting approach, you could target two specific levels and give the ability to wear light armor & ignore arcane spell failure, and later upgrade the ability to medium armor. If folks think that this is too much, make sure that no caster level is gained when each of these abilities are added, making eldritch knight an 8/10 caster class in exchange for the armor ability.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Hmm, so taking ideas and slapping together.
Eldrich Knight.
Proficiency in all Martial Weapons.
Caster level 4th
Combat casting (why not?)
Good BAB, d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, good fort and will saves.
1st level no caster level, but gain ability to cast in light armor/light shields.
2nd-5th level full caster progression.
6th level cast in medium armor, no caster level.
7-10 full caster progression.
So lets say, fighter 1 wizard 4 EK10 would have at level 15:
BAB +10
Fort +10, Ref +4, Will +11
Caster level 12
Cast in Light and Medium armour, light shields w/o penalty.
at 20th level, lets say Fighter 2, Wizard 8, EK10
BAB +13
Fort +12, Ref +5, Will +13
Caster level 16
Not bad, I think.
Matthew, no disrespect to your build (which looks like a fantastic starting point for a new prestige class), but for a straight, no-frills Ftr/Wiz I'd personally rather play the EldKt as written -- better BAB, better spellcasting, and I could potentially use the Pathfinder arcane armor feats and twilight mithral armor to cast in full plate (rather than be limited to medium armor).
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Matthew, no disrespect to your build (which looks like a fantastic starting point for a new prestige class), but for a straight, no-frills Ftr/Wiz I'd personally rather play the EldKt as written -- better BAB, better spellcasting, and I could potentially use the Pathfinder arcane armor feats and twilight mithral armor to cast in full plate (rather than be limited to medium armor).
None taken. It was just off the top of the head. Full BAB and d10 HD might be just fine since the figher is more flexible.
Edit: I also wasn't looking to twilight. most of my critters are based on flat 3.x SRD or now pathfinder.
None taken. It was just off the top of the head. Full BAB and d10 HD might be just fine since the figher is more flexible.
Cool. For what the EldKt tries to do (combine classes, but without any other flavor), it's probably better with the full BAB and 9/10 casting. But like I said, what you've posted could be a terrific seed for a really good "gish" PrC, or even a base class (have you looked at Monte Cook's mageblade, in Arcana Evolved?) Anyway, I wouldn't abandon it just yet, if I were you!
Edit: I also wasn't looking to twilight. Most of my critters are based on flat 3.x SRD or now pathfinder.
You are a wise man. Sometimes it seems like splatbook spells and magic items have given us nothing but headaches.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I take that as a high compliment coming from you KE.
I thin k if I was revamping the KE, I'd still stick with 8/10 maybe cut the weapons down to 2 martial. That way a battle sorcerer could get in with one feat, an elf 0, which keeps the archtype of the elf/gidh. Same for outsiders. Also a fighter 1/Wiz 9 EK 10 would have 9th level spells, a Battle Sorc 10/EK 10 would have 9th level spells, but everyone else would be lacking the goodies. I don't have a problem with that myself.
We have an OGL Gish with up to level 4 spells in the advanced player's manual, I wrote up my arcane legionary and spell stalker to give us a gish and a rogue/sorcerer with up to level 6 spells.
I don't mind the sword wielding mage archtype. Everyone thinks of Gandalf, even though he was an outsider in game terms.
Do you think the EK should give proficiency wth armour or that the gish to be just keeps what he already knows?
1. I think if I was revamping the KE, I'd still stick with 8/10 maybe cut the weapons down to 2 martial. That way a battle sorcerer could get in with one feat, an elf 0, which keeps the archtype of the elf/gidh. Same for outsiders. Also a fighter 1/Wiz 9 EK 10 would have 9th level spells, a Battle Sorc 10/EK 10 would have 9th level spells, but everyone else would be lacking the goodies. I don't have a problem with that myself.
2. We have an OGL Gish with up to level 4 spells in the advanced player's manual, I wrote up my arcane legionary and spell stalker to give us a gish and a rogue/sorcerer with up to level 6 spells.
3. Do you think the EK should give proficiency wth armour or that the gish to be just keeps what he already knows?
1. Seems like that would work nicely, actually -- you cut down the caster level by 1, but also reduce the entry requirements. Lets people start doing what they really want to do as quickly as possible.
2. Where can I find this Advanced Players Manual? Sounds like it would definitely be worth a look!
3. Hmmm... I see what you mean. It was OK before, but now you've docked the entry requirements, so it needs adjusting. Was initially pondering something along the lines of being able to use the 1st level bonus feat as a high-efficiency light/medium/heavy armor proficiency, but I intensely dislike giving away feats 3 for 1. Maybe the class could give light and/or medium, and you'd have to buy medium and/or heavy? Can't think of an elegant solution there, offhand; I'll really have to think about that one.
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2. Where can I find this Advanced Players Manual? Sounds like it would definitely be worth a look!
The Advanced Player's Manual was part of Green Ronin's supplementary d20 line, the same one that gave us the Advanced Bestiary. It's a decent book, but not up to the (admittedly very high) standard of the Bestiary. The class he's referring to is the thanemage, an arcanist-warrior built along the lines of the paladin and ranger, though they do admittedly get cantrips. Personally, I'm not a fan of the class - much like the paladin and ranger, the spells aren't really the focus of the class, which is a) disappointing for players who really want a spellcaster/fighter, and b) bad for the class, because what's left is rather painfully uninspiring.
The Advanced Player's Manual was part of Green Ronin's supplementary d20 line, the same one that gave us the Advanced Bestiary.
Thanks for the info. I've become curious about the Bestiary after seeing it cited in seemingly nearly every stat block in Pathfinder--maybe I'll have to snag them both and take a peek.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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The Advanced Player's Manual was part of Green Ronin's supplementary d20 line, the same one that gave us the Advanced Bestiary.Thanks for the info. I've become curious about the Bestiary after seeing it cited in seemingly nearly every stat block in Pathfinder--maybe I'll have to snag them both and take a peek.
Don't maybe, do. I'll agree about the Thanemage not having spells as their main schtick.
I kind of see three levels of caster type.
Tier 1: Cleric, Cloistered Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer, Battle Sorcerer, Psion, Wilder. Get 9th level spells by 20th level.
Tier 2: Bard, Psychic Warrior, get level 6 spells/powers more combat ready.
Tier 3: Paladin, Ranger, Thanemage. Spells top out at 4th level, not many spells. Much more combat ready.
I'd like to see a Tier 2 divine, and a tier 2 gish. Another tier 3 spontaneous caster would be nice too.
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I kind of see three levels of caster type.
Tier 1: Cleric, Cloistered Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer, Battle Sorcerer, Psion, Wilder. Get 9th level spells by 20th level.
Tier 2: Bard, Psychic Warrior, get level 6 spells/powers more combat ready.
Tier 3: Paladin, Ranger, Thanemage. Spells top out at 4th level, not many spells. Much more combat ready.
I'd like to see a Tier 2 divine, and a tier 2 gish. Another tier 3 spontaneous caster would be nice too.
I'd agree with all three of those suggestions. The duskblade is a variant on the tier 2, inasmuch as it only gets 5th level spells, but has caster level=class level, and more than just a tiny handful of spells/day; it's also pretty much accepted as a really good example of how to do a base-class gish. Similarly, the favored soul is a spontaneous divine tier 3. Now, naturally both of those are WotC's property, but they show the need in the base class set as it stands.