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After playtesting three games - all wizard players wanted to take Universal specialization.
I asked why this is?
They felt - that having to give up two full schools of spells just to get their abilities each day is too punitive.
I am beginning to agree with them. Compare to a sorcerer: they get their special bloodline abilites regardless of what spells they cast each day.
I now see their point. I can understand a loss of one school to specialize in one - but two does seem excessive and memorizing any spell from either of those two schools robs them of their specialized abilities.
Anyone have a different take on this? I don't mind if you do; just curious if I'm out in left field on this thought.....
Robert
I now see their point. I can understand a loss of one school to specialize in one - but two does seem excessive and memorizing any spell from either of those two schools robs them of their specialized abilities.
I agree, but I'll take it a step further. I think the Universalists powers are good enough that even if the specialists didn't have to give up any schools it would be slighter better than any of the specialist choices.
The universalists powers need to be toned way down in order to balancing losing 2 schools.
Hey guys - I think you're a bit mistaken about this.
Specialist wizards only lose their specialist *Power* (1st level), not their specialist Abilities (2nd level and on), when they memorize from a prohibited school.
It probably needs to be better clarified, but they aren't imbalanced. This is why the Universal school lost its 1st level power - "always" lose it to speak. This means the non-Universals are a little *more* powerful, since they get the *option* of getting that 1st level power.
Hey guys - I think you're a bit mistaken about this.
Specialist wizards only lose their specialist *Power* (1st level), not their specialist Abilities (2nd level and on), when they memorize from a prohibited school.
It probably needs to be better clarified, but they aren't imbalanced. This is why the Universal school lost its 1st level power - "always" lose it to speak. This means the non-Universals are a little *more* powerful, since they get the *option* of getting that 1st level power.
Ok, this is a bit more balanced but I still think the abilities a universalist picks at higher levels are quite a bit better than the abilities of any of the specialists. Also, compare the default sorcerer (arcane bloodline) to the universalist wizard - the wizard abilities are much better than the sorcerers.
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Hey guys - I think you're a bit mistaken about this.
Specialist wizards only lose their specialist *Power* (1st level), not their specialist Abilities (2nd level and on), when they memorize from a prohibited school.
It probably needs to be better clarified, but they aren't imbalanced. This is why the Universal school lost its 1st level power - "always" lose it to speak. This means the non-Universals are a little *more* powerful, since they get the *option* of getting that 1st level power.
You're right - that does change things a bit.... :-)
Thanks for clarifying.
Robert
Ok, this is a bit more balanced but I still think the abilities a universalist picks at higher levels are quite a bit better than the abilities of any of the specialists. Also, compare the default sorcerer (arcane bloodline) to the universalist wizard - the wizard abilities are much better than the sorcerers.
Though I do think the Universal powers are strong, they are a broad even strength, while most of the specialist powers are focused and very powerful (Evocation annulling Energy Immunity? Wow).
I haven't looked at it really closely, but the "Arcane" sorcerer looked pretty darn strong. And remember, the non-specialist wizard had a *lot* to make up for - I don't think I saw someone play a non-specialist wizard in all of 3rd edition.
All in all looks pretty interesting for all, which one ends up stronger, hard to tell... but then.. how many 3rd edition Abjurers do you know?
You're right - that does change things a bit.... :-)
Thanks for clarifying.
Robert
Sure thing :)
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I haven't looked at it really closely, but the "Arcane" sorcerer looked pretty darn strong. And remember, the non-specialist wizard had a *lot* to make up for - I don't think I saw someone play a non-specialist wizard in all of 3rd edition.
Actually, not to divert the topic - but in my experiences of those I've gamed with - just the opposite occured. I think a specialist was about 10% of the wizards I saw - rarely did I find someone who felt that the benefits of being a specialist outweighed or even equaled to losing all access to two schools of spells and items.
Robert
I haven't looked at it really closely, but the "Arcane" sorcerer looked pretty darn strong. And remember, the non-specialist wizard had a *lot* to make up for - I don't think I saw someone play a non-specialist wizard in all of 3rd edition.
Actually, not to divert the topic - but in my experiences of those I've gamed with - just the opposite occured. I think a specialist was about 10% of the wizards I saw - rarely did I find someone who felt that the benefits of being a specialist outweighed or even equaled to losing all access to two schools of spells and items.
Robert
First - a note of clarification. You lose the specialist bonus ability/power... not the first level school power... if you prep. spells prohibited to you. For an abjurer, for example, they give up resistance 5 to an element, but still get shield as a spell like ability however many times per day if they prep. a prohibited spell.
I've tended to play more specialists in 3.5 than not... because that extra spell per level per day was quite a bonus (particularly at lower levels, where using the crossbow was always something you were doing by the end of the day).
Now I can't see why anyone would play a specialist. The powers the specialists get to specialize aren't near as good as the spell per day per level they give up (but then again, they are only specialists now as long as they choose to be). Basically, every wizard is now a universalist that can pick from 7 different chains of abilities... with I think the clear winner here being the universalist (being able to quicken cast a 9th level spell at level 17 on a whim isn't too shaby, imho).
The universalist gets some really nice abilities. Really nice, as in broken nice. I think they shouldn't get all the awesome powers they get, like the 8th and 20th ones.
One more problem all have, though, is that the 2nd level abilities don't increase at all with level. Shield's not bad at 20th still, but Summon Monster 1? Come on.
Universalists outshine the Evoker in Evoking, I think. Free Metamagic (even only some levels/day) is a bit "über".
About scaling of powers over levels, I've argued the same thing here:
and Uncle Monkey here:
well, as I have in my shaneless plug, I scaled the 1st level abilities so they are a bit more powerful, but not overpowering. Here's a sampling:
Enchantment
2nd – charm person 1/day per two caster levels you possess. At 10th level, this changes to charm monster.
Necromancy
2nd - ray of enfeeblement 1/day per two caster levels you possess. Unlike normal, the Strength penalty induced by this ray of enfeeblement increases by one for every three caster levels you possess beyond 5th, up to a maximum of 1d6 + 10 at 20th level.
Transmutation
2nd – enlarge person, reduce person, expeditious retreat, jump or feather fall 1/day per two caster levels you possess. You choose one of the above spells at 2nd level, and choose an additional one for every 5 caster levels you possess. When you activate this ability, you may choose to use any of the above spells as long as you have chosen them previously for this ability, and then cast the chosen one as a spell-like ability.
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First - a note of clarification. You lose the specialist bonus ability/power... not the first level school power... if you prep. spells prohibited to you. For an abjurer, for example, they give up resistance 5 to an element, but still get shield as a spell like ability however many times per day if they prep. a prohibited spell.
And I still say losing that is a big pill to swallow - in exchange for giving up two full schools; which further exacerbates the draw towards Universal that players are having.
I believe if you limit specialists to losing only ONE school of spells, you might see more people take advantage of specialists and not lean towards the universal wizard so much.
Another question: Do specialists wizards still receive an extra spell to memorize at each level?
Robert
No, they don't get any extra spells. Same thing for domains. The SLAs replace the bonus slots. Okay, Universalists get the SLAs for free, but you know what I mean. ;-)
What I find curios, too: Diviners only had to choose one prohibited school in standard 3.5, to make up for their somewhat lacking bonus spell selection.
If this is seen to be balanced, then in PRPG, Diviners should get some sugar, too:
- either buff divination spells or
- or give them only one prohibited school
- or buff their powers (except for two first level powers, they're are even substandard, I think).
The third option would be best, I think, as option a.) is difficult to implement and option b.) always felt like an admission of design failure.
No, they don't get any extra spells. Same thing for domains. The SLAs replace the bonus slots. Okay, Universalists get the SLAs for free, but you know what I mean. ;-)
What I find curios, too: Diviners only had to choose one prohibited school in standard 3.5, to make up for their somewhat lacking bonus spell selection.
If this is seen to be balanced, then in PRPG, Diviners should get some sugar, too:
- either buff divination spells or
- or give them only one prohibited school
- or buff their powers (except for two first level powers, they're are even substandard, I think).The third option would be best, I think, as option a.) is difficult to implement and option b.) always felt like an admission of design failure.
Bear in mind that there's no longer a requirement for Diviners to prepare divination spells, ever, or even know any. So it just comes down to their school abilitieis versus everyone elses. I think their specialist power is very good, as is their 1st-level ability.
No, they don't get any extra spells. Same thing for domains. The SLAs replace the bonus slots. Okay, Universalists get the SLAs for free, but you know what I mean. ;-)
Yeah, I'd rather see Universalists get fewer spell-like abilities; maybe every 4 levels like a domain.
Here's my version of a Universalist "specialty":
Level 1: Hand of the Apprentice
Level 2: Detect Magic at will (yes; it's lame on purpose)
Level 4: Spectral Hand 1/day
Level 8: You get the ability to swap out a prepared spell for another spell you know of the same level as a standard action. The maximum number of spell levels which can be swapped out per day is equal to your wizard level/2.
Level 12: Contingency 1/day
Level 16: Limited Wish 1/day
Level 20: Master of All Schools
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Bear in mind that there's no longer a requirement for Diviners to prepare divination spells, ever, or even know any. So it just comes down to their school abilitieis versus everyone elses. I think their specialist power is very good, as is their 1st-level ability.
I agree that the Diviner has one of the best specialist powers and his 1st level power is great as well. In fact their first level power is one of the few that scales quite well. Unfortunately I think those are the rest of the school powers are a mixed bag and rather weak compared to some of the other schools.
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I would favor having specialist wizards choose one 'banned' school, but making it so that they cannot prepare spells from that school.
They should be able to use wands and magic items from the prohibited school if they can succeed on a use magic device check just as if it were not on their spell list.
I don't like having to worry after I have a spell on my list which school it is, since sometimes they aren't obvious. Sending, for example. I know it is evocation, but everytime I think about it, I don't think of it as an evocation spell. So, if I were a specialist with evocation as a banned school, I might 'prepare' this spell without realizing the school, and therefore might use my specialist abilities when I should not.
If the school is REALLY banned, it won't be in my spell book and the chance of an error like this are greatly reduced.
Personally, I would like to see the "banned schools" brought back into the game, but make it a single school instead of two. In return, I would like to see the bonus spell per spell level in your chosen school returned also. Yes, this means SLA abilities and 1 bonus spell per spell level :)
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I would favor having specialist wizards choose one 'banned' school, but making it so that they cannot prepare spells from that school.
They should be able to use wands and magic items from the prohibited school if they can succeed on a use magic device check just as if it were not on their spell list.
This truthfully was the point I was trying to make when I started this thread.
I too believe one banned school is sufficient - and not being able to learn/know/cast from that school at all is fair. In return, the school powers that PF has created are awesome and a great addition - but for losing the ability to cast the other school, the wizards should still be able to have one additional spell per level to memorize. THAT should be the one advantage that specicialists get over universal. That way even though universal wizards have cool and powerful abilities, they do not get the extra memorized spell per level.
And of course wands/scrolls of banned schools should not be allowed (with the exception of course being that use of UMD).
Robert
All of these ideas are great from a gaming rules perspective - each sines in slightly different ways. But do any of them actually present a "specialist"? It seems that by prohibiting two schools, it forces the player to actually choose more spells from their professed speciality.
By getting to choose spells from any school, the Universalist has a strong advantage as shown by all the comments here. I'd rather see a weakening of the Universalist's special abilities (as they're really powerful) than making the specialist stronger. The two school prohibition, seems like a perfectly good trade-off. Don't think of it as a punishment, try something like: "If I have the cake, I can't have the ice cream." Each day you choose to have the special ability OR you can choose to memorize a spell (or more) from those two schools.
I like flavor.
Does anyone have any actual playtest feedback on how this pans out around the table? I'm playtesting some Pathfinder stuff in my homebrew, but nobody is playing a wizard. I'm keen to hear some actual in-game reports of how it affects specialists.
I'm currently playing 2 wizards... a level 11 Wiz 3/Master Specialist 6/Initiate of the Seven Veils 2. I made it through most of those levels before the Alpha rules came out... so I don't have any spells from "prohibited" schools in my spellbook (let alone prepared). The shield 5 times per day or whatever it is is a nice bump to AC. The Resistance 5 to one energy type hasn't been of any use in 4 sessions. The second level ability... that standard action for a +1 Deflection to AC for everyone within 10' for 1 rnd... I'll never use. At this level, everyone has rings of protecion, and there's always something better to do with my turn than guess that we're going to get attacked.
There is no spell like ability at level 3 for wizards. And since I multi-classed out as soon as I could, I don't have any other benefits of being an abjurer. Compared to the extra spell / level / day... my character is a lot less powerful.
I never had a problem with losing 2 schools for the extra spells per day. Doing it this way, means that you are only a "specialist" to the extent you prefer one line of school powers over another. Effectively, all specialists are generalists. There's no reason for an abjurer specialist to even prepare abjuration spells anymore if they don't want to.
My other wizard is a generalist... because the generalist's school powers are too good to pass up (metamagic for free? yes please)
I have a game going right now with an abjurer that started with alpha 1. I honestly didn't read the rules carefully enough when I first started the campaign and by the time that I noticed that specialists didn't gain the bonus spell each level I didn't really care (I have felt that the wizard always got the short end of the stick in abilities, especially at lower levels; therefore, the extra spell per level plus the bonus abilities [abilities being tied to the wizard level and bonus spells not] worked to balance that out]. So far it has worked pretty good [I even kept the restriction of total ban on prohibited schools]. The character is now an abjurer 5/red wizard 2 and doing well [the loss of rapid transit is looming in the horizen but that is what happens when your prohibited schools are illusion and conjuration].
Actually, under the pathfinder ruleset, there's no reason not to pick up teleport. You can forgo energy resistance for a day when you need to cross the continent.
Personally, I would like to see the "banned schools" brought back into the game, but make it a single school instead of two. In return, I would like to see the bonus spell per spell level in your chosen school returned also. Yes, this means SLA abilities and 1 bonus spell per spell level :)
The problem is that there are two philosophies in play here. On the one hand, wizards (at higher levels anyway) are one of the most powerful classes out there, so in that sense they don't need to be made more powerful. So by that token, giving specialist wizards some extra spell-like abilities as well as a bonus slot is overpowering. On the other hand, it looks like the goal is to give a reason for players to take 20 levels of wizard instead of prestige classing out. By that token, something needs to be added to specialist wizards.
My personal thought is that generalist wizards need to get fewer benefits; specialists don't necessarily need more.
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Personally, I would like to see the "banned schools" brought back into the game, but make it a single school instead of two. In return, I would like to see the bonus spell per spell level in your chosen school returned also. Yes, this means SLA abilities and 1 bonus spell per spell level :)The problem is that there are two philosophies in play here. On the one hand, wizards (at higher levels anyway) are one of the most powerful classes out there, so in that sense they don't need to be made more powerful. So by that token, giving specialist wizards some extra spell-like abilities as well as a bonus slot is overpowering. On the other hand, it looks like the goal is to give a reason for players to take 20 levels of wizard instead of prestige classing out. By that token, something needs to be added to specialist wizards.
My personal thought is that generalist wizards need to get fewer benefits; specialists don't necessarily need more.
While I agree that they do become very powerful, I look at these factors:
Specialists should get their bonus spell slot - universalists - or generalists should not. Specialists should only be prohibited from one school.
IMO, the wizard is no more powerful than a sorcerer - but here where the rules are favoring the sorcerer:
The sorcerer doesn't have to lose spellcasting to any school - let alone two. Sorcerers do not lose access to any of their class powers for learning specific spells. And finally the spell-like abilities of the wizards class features are based off of charisma! - forcing wizards to have a stat that is the focus-point of a sorcerer; in contrast there are no abilities of the sorcerer that have to rely on intelligence.
IMO the wizard is getting the shaft in favor of the sorcerer.
Robert
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I know this goes back a ways, but I miss how specialist wizards' spells were just a bit harder to save against. I believe in 3.0 they got a +2 to their DC's for targets to save against the specialists' spells from their specialized school. In earlier editions I believe there was a similar mechanic. I like the logic that if someone specializes in a school of magic, their speciallity spells are harder to save against.
IMO the wizard is getting the shaft in favor of the sorcerer.
Without getting into a Frank Trollman-style flame war, let me just say:
"I respectfully disagree."
:)
My personal thought is that generalist wizards need to get fewer benefits; specialists don't necessarily need more.
I would somewhat disagree. I would rather see some of the SLAs be replaced with utility spells (below is a suggestion).
1st - Hand of the Apprentice
2nd - shield
4th - rope trick
6th - tiny hut
8th - metamagic mastery (I would change this to 1/4 levels)
10th - teleport
12th - contingency
14th - instant summons
16th - Dimensional lock
18th - Refuge
20th - Mastery of all schools
My personal thought is that generalist wizards need to get fewer benefits; specialists don't necessarily need more.I would somewhat disagree. I would rather see some of the SLAs be replaced with utility spells (below is a suggestion).
1st - Hand of the Apprentice
2nd - shield
4th - rope trick
6th - tiny hut
8th - metamagic mastery (I would change this to 1/4 levels)
10th - teleport
12th - contingency
14th - instant summons
16th - Dimensional lock
18th - Refuge
20th - Mastery of all schools
My problem with this method... and the school powers in the Alpha rules is that you give the Wizard spell like abilities that may not be on his spell list! Oh look, I can cast rope trick as a spell like ability, even though I've never studied the spell, never once prepared it, etc.
Something about that seems really wrong to me.
The school powers should be things that either enhance spell casting abilities, or give you a spell as a spell like ability, but leave that spell to player's choice.
Would it really be that hard to come up with 15-20 or so "talents" like the Rogue has to give players a choice as they level up?
Then scratch the specialist bonus abilities and give them back their extra spell per day.
Then scratch the specialist bonus abilities and give them back their extra spell per day.
But if you don't have any fancy abilities for specialists at level 6+, you might as well take a prestige class as soon as possible -- right?
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IMO the wizard is getting the shaft in favor of the sorcerer.Without getting into a Frank Trollman-style flame war, let me just say:
Sorry, but I don't know what that means. I'm sure its some inside joke or esoteric forum lingo, but it is not part of my current vernacular.
I do understand that you disagree. Thats fair enough.
But from my experience, numbers don't lie: and the numbers of everyone at my table from, all three games being played (which is about 14 different people) - as well as the Local Game Store hobby room - there is no one playing a specialist wizard (universal only), and most arcane casters are sorcerers.
And most cite the same reasons why.
In fact in one of our games - the DM just switched to Pathfinder Alpha Rules - the guy playing the dwarven wizard (which has been my favorite race/class combo to play since 3.5 began) decided to switch to an elf because of the Cha mod hit to a dwarf wasn't conducive to the wizards class abilities. I just found that to be wrong. Meanwhile the player who was playing the sorcerer - made out like a bandit!
Robert
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I know this goes back a ways, but I miss how specialist wizards' spells were just a bit harder to save against. I believe in 3.0 they got a +2 to their DC's for targets to save against the specialists' spells from their specialized school. In earlier editions I believe there was a similar mechanic. I like the logic that if someone specializes in a school of magic, their speciallity spells are harder to save against.
Actually that was a 2nd edition benefit - but it was that the specialist recieved a +2 bonus to saves against their spells from their chosen school.
In my homegames since we unanimously felt that specialists didn't get enough for giving up two schools, but also felt that making "higher DCs" to be not a real fair benefit in that not all spell schools had a lot of spell that are dependant on DCs (such as Trans, Adjurer and diviner); so instead we allowed specialists to cast their Chosen school at +1 Caster Level (as the Good or Law Domain did for cleric spells).
Robert
I know this goes back a ways, but I miss how specialist wizards' spells were just a bit harder to save against. I believe in 3.0 they got a +2 to their DC's for targets to save against the specialists' spells from their specialized school. In earlier editions I believe there was a similar mechanic. I like the logic that if someone specializes in a school of magic, their speciallity spells are harder to save against.
I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiment, but there was no boost to DC in 3.0 - only a +2 to Spellcraft checks to learn spells. I believe in 2nd edition there may have been a -1 to saves against a specialist's school spells. Specialists didn't exist before that (other than the Illusionist subclass).
The current way makes "Spell Focus (your school)" a common choice. Forcing the expenditure of a feat is rather fair, given the uselessness of "Spell Focus (Divination)"...
On the original topic, I still see virtually no difference in strength between a specialist and a universalist. The specialists get a power, as long as they don't memorize spells from two schools. The universalist gets no power. Slightly better domain abilities otherwise? Maybe.
Vs. Sorcerers - there really hasn't been much change in the balance of power, 3.5 to PF. Mostly a matter of taste I think. Some decry sorcerers as far too weak, due to metamagic, others sorcerers far too strong for their # of spells and versatile choices.
Sorry, but I don't know what that means. I'm sure its some inside joke or esoteric forum lingo, but it is not part of my current vernacular.IMO the wizard is getting the shaft in favor of the sorcerer.Without getting into a Frank Trollman-style flame war, let me just say:
Sorry, I just meant that we can agree to disagree on this issue; I'm not the type of person who thrives on conflict and internet drama.
But saying that 9 out of 10 people prefer to play sorcerers isn't quite the same as saying that sorcerers are just as powerful as wizards. It could mean that sorcerers are more fun to play than wizards. Personally I find playing a wizard runs out of spells too fast at low levels, and at high levels it's kind of like doing my taxes -- there's a lot of paperwork involved.
But from my experience, numbers don't lie: and the numbers of everyone at my table from, all three games being played (which is about 14 different people) - as well as the Local Game Store hobby room - there is no one playing a specialist wizard (universal only), and most arcane casters are sorcerers.
And most cite the same reasons why.
In fact in one of our games - the DM just switched to Pathfinder Alpha Rules - the guy playing the dwarven wizard (which has been my favorite race/class combo to play since 3.5 began) decided to switch to an elf because of the Cha mod hit to a dwarf wasn't conducive to the wizards class abilities. I just found that to be wrong. Meanwhile the player who was playing the sorcerer - made out like a bandit!
Robert
This has been my experience also, which is why I stated being for giving the specialists back their "+1 spell per spell level". I am the only player in our group that will even touch the wizard class, and after looking over the Alpha rules I'm starting to lean towards a sorcerer instead. Even the DM was like "damn, what's the point in playing a wizard?"
I'm not a fan of the SLA abilities given by the specialists. I would rather the benefits for sticking with your core specialist class be enhancements to your known spells.
For example, for a Conjurer the special benefits should allow the character to do things with their Summoning spells that a sorcerer or "Universal" wizard could not. Things like advancing summoned creatures by 1-2 hit dice, giving them an additional template, granting them additional HP or ability modifiers, granting additional creatures summoned per spell, and extending the duration.
So, as an example for the Conjurer
Specialist ability - AC bonus per Alpha rules (I don't like it though)
1st - Acid Dart
2nd - Summoning spells last an additional 2 rounds
4th - Cast Monster Summoning spells as standard action - 3/day
6th - Summoned creatures gain +1 HD
8th - Dimensional Steps (because it is a cool ability :) )
10th - Can summon 1 additional creature with the Summon Monster spell or treat the spell as maximized when summoning creatures from a lower-level list - 2/day
12th - Summoning spells with a duration of 1/round per level are now 1 minute/level (+2 minutes for the 2nd level ability)
14th - Summoned creatures gain +2 HD (replaces 6th level ability)
16th - Can attempt to Banish (as Banishment spell) all summoned creatures within a 30' radius - 1/day
18th - Summoned creatures can bypass spells that would normally block them such as Protection from Evil or Magic Circle against Evil
20th - Summoning Master (as Alpha document)
Obviously this is just a rough idea, but it focuses on the specialist's chosen field and improves on it, instead of just giving out "random" SLA abilities like Stinking Cloud and Wall of Iron. It would also alleviate the issue of granting spells like Gate or Wish as SLA abilities.
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This has been my experience also, which is why I stated being for giving the specialists back their "+1 spell per spell level". I am the only player in our group that will even touch the wizard class, and after looking over the Alpha rules I'm starting to lean towards a sorcerer instead. Even the DM was like "damn, what's the point in playing a wizard?"
You match the sentiment exactly of most of the people I know in this area.
I'm not a fan of the SLA abilities given by the specialists. I would rather the benefits for sticking with your core specialist class be enhancements to your known spells.For example, for a Conjurer the special benefits should allow the character to do things with their Summoning spells that a sorcerer or "Universal" wizard could not. Things like advancing summoned creatures by 1-2 hit dice, giving them an additional template, granting them additional HP or ability modifiers, granting additional creatures summoned per spell, and extending the duration.
So, as an example for the Conjurer
wrote:
Specialist ability - AC bonus per Alpha rules (I don't like it though)
1st - Acid Dart
2nd - Summoning spells last an additional 2 rounds
4th - Cast Monster Summoning spells as standard action - 3/day
6th - Summoned creatures gain +1 HD
8th - Dimensional Steps (because it is a cool ability :) )
10th - Can summon 1 additional creature with the Summon Monster spell or treat the spell as maximized when summoning creatures from a lower-level list - 2/day
12th - Summoning spells with a duration of 1/round per level are now 1 minute/level (+2 minutes for the 2nd level ability)
14th - Summoned creatures gain +2 HD (replaces 6th level ability)
16th - Can attempt to Banish (as Banishment spell) all summoned creatures within a 30' radius - 1/day
18th - Summoned creatures can bypass spells that would normally block them such as Protection from Evil or Magic Circle against Evil
20th - Summoning Master (as Alpha document)Obviously this is just a rough idea, but it focuses on the specialist's chosen field and improves on it, instead of just giving out "random" SLA abilities like Stinking Cloud and Wall of Iron. It would also alleviate the issue of granting spells like Gate or Wish as SLA abilities.
That is excellent Brett. I am in full agreement with you! Save for a few minor tweaks of the specifics, I think this is exactly in the right direction for these types of abilities. Almost like a prestige class devoted to the specialty school. I hope the powers-at-be see this post. I think this is the perfect way to address the specialty schools! Very well done, Brett.
Robert
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I think the problem comes down to this. In 3.5 Generalist vs. Specialist was a tough choice. Could could cast extra spells per day or have access to every spell in the book.
In Paizo generalists are getting roughly the same number or abilities as the specialist. In particular the specialist bonus, the trademark different between generalists and the rest, come off as very unimportant.
And when comparing the generalist SLAs to the others, it comes up pretty darn well so you are seeing a lot of generalists.
Which makes my arguement for me: add back the extra spell slots to the specialists.
Then they have a reason to be more attractive to people.
Robert
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So a player I know recently approached the specialist wizard issue with the following:
His Transmuter (with conjuration school of his prohibited schools) memorized Mage Armor - thus preventing him from having the special ability from his transmutation school (the +4 to one of his stats).
He then cast the mage armor at the beginning of the adventuring day and then stipulated that since he no longer has it "memorized" he can now use the ability from his specialty.....
Is that the way it works?
Robert
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I'm not a fan of the SLA abilities given by the specialists. I would rather the benefits for sticking with your core specialist class be enhancements to your known spells.For example, for a Conjurer the special benefits should allow the character to do things with their Summoning spells that a sorcerer or "Universal" wizard could not. Things like advancing summoned creatures by 1-2 hit dice, giving them an additional template, granting them additional HP or ability modifiers, granting additional creatures summoned per spell, and extending the duration.
Brett - would you be willing to contact me off-list via email; I would love to bounce some ideas off you in regards to fleshing out these types of specialty school abilities for the other schools as well.
[SirKicley AT yahoo dot com]
Robert
Email sent :)
Of course, I'm very fond of the Conjuration specialists, so that school comes pretty easy for me to come up with ideas. Transmutation and Evocation shouldn't be too hard to come up with similar ideas. My biggest problem will be with schools like Divination, Enchantment, and Illusion as I just haven't been very drawn to those schools in the past.
I hope the Paizo writers have seen or are looking at this thread as this is a pretty big sticking point for me when it comes to specialists. Of course, I can always work with my DM and house rule different abilities, but I just REALLY hate the idea of static SLA spells, especially spells that the character might never have bothered learning/casting in the first place.