I honestly don't keep up too much with these messageboards, so I may be reinventing the wheel.
Last night, while playing the PRPG with my group, we noticed one change with the races: two favored classes. I guess this was done so as not to limit certain races too much, and we understand this; in fact, our group supports the idea. However, we had some issues with what the favored classes were.
Humans and Half-Elves: It's fine with us that they kept their choosing of but one favored class from the whole list. No problems here.
Dwarves: Here is our first problem. Now, we understand why they got Cleric as their second favored class, but we really think that Paladin fits much, much better. They keep much of the martial flavor that way. In addition, with the addition of one of these two as a favored class, our group now agrees that they should get -2 Dex, not Cha (it makes more sense anyways).
Elves: Wizard and Ranger are perfect. No complaints here.
Gnomes: Bard and Sorcerer are perfect for the race that is most proficient in innate magical talents and gets a Charisma bonus. Bravo!
Halflings: Rogue is of course natural to the halfling, but we thought it might be nice if they didn't have Wizard; it feels like these races should be different enough not to have to copy one anothers' favored classes. However, we couldn't think of a btter alternative, so we decided it would be fine.
Half-Orcs: Naturally, you kept Barbarian, which is great for Half-Orcs. However, the Cleric one seems like it was only put in there becasue they get a Wis bonus. We suggest nixing the Cleric favored class and making it Druid. there isn't another race with Druid, it fits well with the "savage" idea, and their ability score help support the idea, especially with the changes to Wild Shape.
I like the 2 FCs as well. However, I agree that the Halfling Wiz is a wee bit odd. On the other hand, I really like the Cleric for Dwarves and Half-Orcs. For Dwarves, it's often presented this way; I mean, remember Eberk from the PHB? For Half-Orcs, it gives them a not-savage alternative, though Fighter might be better (but they seem to want at least one magic class for each).
I like the 2 FCs as well. However, I agree that the Halfling Wiz is a wee bit odd. On the other hand, I really like the Cleric for Dwarves and Half-Orcs. For Dwarves, it's often presented this way; I mean, remember Eberk from the PHB? For Half-Orcs, it gives them a not-savage alternative, though Fighter might be better (but they seem to want at least one magic class for each).
There's no reason why Druids and Barbarians have to be wild; you can have illiterate, violent people in the city, and people who tend to parks and such. Still, Paladin gives a martial bent for dwarves, although you have a good point with the fact that Paizo wants a magic class for each, or so it appears.
There's no reason why Druids and Barbarians have to be wild; you can have illiterate, violent people in the city, and people who tend to parks and such. Still, Paladin gives a martial bent for dwarves, although you have a good point with the fact that Paizo wants a magic class for each, or so it appears.
I guess I can agree with you on the Dwarf side. Still, I see no reason why having the Half-Orc be Ftr/Bbn is bad. Besides, a urban "park" Druid is a silly idea, and violent people in the city are still fighters.
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Dwarves: Here is our first problem. Now, we understand why they got Cleric as their second favored class, but we really think that Paladin fits much, much better. They keep much of the martial flavor that way. In addition, with the addition of one of these two as a favored class, our group now agrees that they should get -2 Dex, not Cha (it makes more sense anyways).
Hmmm... I disagree with you there. I never liked that penalty to DEX in AD&D, since it just didn't make sense -- dwarves are gruff, not clumsy, and therefore I think the CHA penalty is justified. Besides, DEX penalty would make dwarven fighters and rogues far less competent and enticing to play -- especially at low levels. And I have never, ever played dwarven paladins, but I *have* played a few dwarven clerics and fighter/clerics. So cleric feels as a more natural fit for dwarves, at least as far as I'm concerned.
Halflings: Rogue is of course natural to the halfling, but we thought it might be nice if they didn't have Wizard; it feels like these races should be different enough not to have to copy one anothers' favored classes. However, we couldn't think of a btter alternative, so we decided it would be fine.
I agree -- I never thought that halflings would care much for wizardry and this feels so odd that I think I'd almost any other class except the barbarian. Why not ranger? Some halflings are overcome with wanderlust, so it wouldn't be too far-fetched. BTW, I wouldn't mind seeing Halflings lose that INT bonus and getting +2 to CHA instead.
Half-Orcs: Naturally, you kept Barbarian, which is great for Half-Orcs. However, the Cleric one seems like it was only put in there becasue they get a Wis bonus. We suggest nixing the Cleric favored class and making it Druid. there isn't another race with Druid, it fits well with the "savage" idea, and their ability score help support the idea, especially with the changes to Wild Shape.
Completely agree with you there, since I, too, tend to see Half-Orcs as "outcasts" who are more in touch with their "primal"/savage nature than civilization. However, if the druid is not an option, I wouldn't mind if the other class were the fighter. I'm also *very* concerned about making Half-Orcs pretty much THE race of choice for the cleric class -- in fact, I'm predicting that most clerics people are going to play will be Half-Orcs. And why not? With that sweet +2 bonus to *both* STR and WIS plus cleric as one of their favored classes, there is very little point (from a gamist/powergamer POV) in choosing any other race for a cleric.
And let's not forget that we're talking about the cleric class, which is already the most versatile and powerful combat class in the game -- no need to give them any more "advantages", right?I'm still arguing that Half-Orcs should get +2 to STR and *CON*, because that WIS bonus feels just weird. So they're always alert and on the "lookout" for trouble? Why don't they just get +2 to Perception? That's how it works for all the other races, such as Elves.
Notice though that all races get bonuses to one mental stat and one physical stat. Giving Half-Orcs STR and CON would beg the question of why you'd ever play one as anything other then a tank.
I Like the idea of Druid being a favored class for Half-Orc, It does also fit very well with the idea of a more primitive race and still benefits from the bonus to WIS.
Classes that don't have favored options (not counting Human and Half-Elf) currently: Druid, Paladin, Monk.
The stat bonus on the Halfling doesn't lend itself to Monk but the description of the race does very much so. If Dwarves were given Paladin instead of Cleric, Half-Orcs Druid over Cleric, and Halfings Wis instead of Int and Monk instead of Wizard. These three classes would now be represented. Cleric would now be left in a lurch though.
I don't think it's really possible to have Monk as a fovored class for one of these general races. The idea of a martial-arts person doesn't really lend itself towards any race but a truly niche one, like the buomann.
I really think that Druid should be the second for Half-Orcs, and people seem to agree that this should be true.I really think dwarves should be getting paladin, though it really limits their options spell-casting wise. However, dwarves were never really supposed to be ones for magic. I might agree that Cleric is fine, though.
I don't think it's really possible to have Monk as a fovored class for one of these general races. The idea of a martial-arts person doesn't really lend itself towards any race but a truly niche one, like the buomann.
I really think that Druid should be the second for Half-Orcs, and people seem to agree that this should be true.
I really think dwarves should be getting paladin, though it really limits their options spell-casting wise. However, dwarves were never really supposed to be ones for magic. I might agree that Cleric is fine, though.
Honestly, unless a monk becomes a "brawler," it's an oriental-themed class, and none of the races really fit the orient here. I'm starting to think Dwarves should get a Dex penalty; they may not be clumsy, but they aren't, on average, as nimble, agile or flexible as other races.
Just a suggestion for the alternate Halfling FC - why not ranger? After all they are soposed to be nomadic types that travel often wouldnt a "scout" type class be good for them?
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Nice analysis GN!
Dwarves FC - Paladin + Fighter
I like the idea but it goes against the idea of having one martial and one casting class. Plus, many people just don't see the usefulness of the paladin.
Gnomes: Bard and Sorcerer
As a fellow gnome fan I can see this. It does make the Gnome the only race with 2 casting favored classes though. Plus I've never seen the Bard tie in with gnomes. ??? Sorcerer I thought was a great idea. How about Rogue/ Sorcerer which would give them a martial and a casting role.
Halflings: However, we couldn't think of a btter alternative, so we decided it would be fine.
Personally this is where I think the Bard should be rather than the wizard. Move the mental boost to CHA where it belongs on halfling and sing away. On the other hand the synergy between racial boosts and favored class choices is great here. High dex, high int, low strength, decent CON... perfect for wizards and rogues both.
Half-Orcs: We suggest nixing the Cleric favored class and making it Druid.
This is an awesome idea, I think a great match for the Half Orc.
-- Dennis
I like the 2 FCs as well. However, I agree that the Halfling Wiz is a wee bit odd. On the other hand, I really like the Cleric for Dwarves and Half-Orcs. For Dwarves, it's often presented this way; I mean, remember Eberk from the PHB? For Half-Orcs, it gives them a not-savage alternative, though Fighter might be better (but they seem to want at least one magic class for each).There's no reason why Druids and Barbarians have to be wild; you can have illiterate, violent people in the city, and people who tend to parks and such. Still, Paladin gives a martial bent for dwarves, although you have a good point with the fact that Paizo wants a magic class for each, or so it appears.
Yes, you can have illiterate violent cityfolks.. however they called the class Barbarian, not Beserker and the skill set of the Barbarian is geared toward a wilderness character moreso than a city character.
Unfortunately, Hald-orc fluff implies that they are not generally liked (even if uses can be found for) by Human society... religous orders have always been a haven for the unwanted of society (in a european-centric type culture which DND tends to be)so cleric makes sense.
And my last 2CP Gnomes Bards/Wizard, they are illusionists in my book