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(I wasn't sure where to post this, but I figure it is mostly new rules ideas, so I posted it here.)
Currently the PRPG Sorcerer is underpowered compared to the Wizard, a problem it suffers from in 3.5 as well. It is also still very similar in flavor, even with the various bloodlines. The idea I have is to turn the Sorcerer into something akin to the Battle Sorcerer variant in Unearthed Arcana.
Firstly, increase the Sorcerer's BAB to 3/4 per level, thereby increasing its hit die to a d8. Additionally, allow the sorcerer to cast spells in light armor without an armor check penalty. Perhaps fill in one of the dead levels with an increase of this ability to Medium Armor, or even Heavy Armor (although I am unsure whether the better armor types make the class to powerful).
Giving the Sorcerer a light or one-handed martial weapon prof also increases the combat capability. This would also allow for a minor reworking of some of the Bloodline feats, allowing a few combat feats to sneak in.
Unlike the Battle Sorcerer variant, it might not be necessary to decrease the known spells and spells per day of the Sorcerer, the class already runs far behind the Wizard in spells known and in spell levels.
The finished class has sufficient flavor and mechanical difference from the wizard, and is more powerful than the original Sorcerer, although I am unsure of whether it is in line with the Wizard, or any of the other classes, for that matter. One major problem this suffers from is backwards compatibility. If this or a similar concept were to be used, the Sorcerer would be the class that is hardest to update a PC or NPC in. What do you guys think?
I would like to see the sorcerer get a bit more "rogueish" too.
But medium BAB and D8 is too much I think.
I would go with light armor prof. (with or without casting penalty - I don't care) and an increased numnber of skill points (4).
And since I am strongly for the use of weapon groups over the usual weapon profs, I am for giving them one group more than the wizard.
BUT the most important thing:
Give Sorcerers their spell levels like every other full caster!
(2nd SL at 3rd lvl, 3rd SL at 5th lvl, ..., Spell level X at Class level 2X-1)
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As I've said on multiple other threads, I too proposed:
a) light armor proficiency
b) skill point increase to 4+int
c) medium BAB (3/4)
d) metamagic use doesn't increase casting time
e) bonus feat: Eschew Materials (if not already)
f) one extra spell known per spell level
Reasoning:
a) As a sorcerer's magic is innate, derives from possibly a supernatural being or from a strong influence of magic, it implies that the magic cast is closer to a spell-like ability. Over generations (or whatnot) the effect gets a tad mild, and in the end the sorcerer's spell casting isn't as good as a spell-like ability's. Whereas a sorcerer would cast a spell with a quick flick of a wrist.
b) Since a sorcerer does not need to spend weeks, months, or even years studying magic theory, she could do farm work at the crops or attend to stage shows and so on. A sorcerer's life is much more free, thanks to her innate abilities. A broken mug? Mending, no problem! They simply have more time to themselves. Now that there are no cross-class skills, a sorcerer with Profession (Farmer) would be a viable choice for a role-player.
c) Pretty much same as above; a sorcerer isn't bound to have 'all theory', but can instead go hunting with his fellows or whatnot.
d) A debate spoken about maybe too much. It's a really minor issue; removing the increase in casting time gives the sorcerer an image of greater power, the ability to shape magic more towards specific power than a wizard can.
e) Partly the same reasoning as in a). Deriving the spell casting from a supernatural ancestor, and the magic comes from within, not from petty materials. The exception comes with powerful magic which requires costly components.
f) This would be just to prevent a sorcerer being a one-trick-pony, having 4 slots on some level, and being able to cast only one particular spell at that level.
Personally I don't feel like a sorcerer, at least with these changes, should have the spell progression be transformed into a regular (wizard) type. Instead, with these modifications the sorcerer would definitely have a 'new' touch to it. There does lie a danger, however, as some people would become rebels and still use the house ruled version of their "ideal" sorcerer.
It appears as if there is no real way of creating a sorcerer that would please all. The above suggestions would make a sorcerer a viable choice for me at least (provided that warmages and beguilers keep out of PRPG for the time being.)
I'd gladly take comment on the ideas above.
I suggested this exact same thing somewhere else. To me the sorcerer is already turning into a gish with all the bloodlines granting melee-type attacks. And really that makes since we already have combat-divine classes (Paladin, Ranger, Druid, and Cleric isn't that bad). I think a core gish class would be great. Plus, if it was gish, I think you could get away with not bumping the spell progression.
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Its good to know that other people see this in a similar way that I do.
I think that increasing the number of skill points a Sorcerer earns would be a great idea, making it easier for a party to remove itself from the Fighter_Cleric_Wizard_Rogue standard.
Since both primary divine casters a relatively useful in combat, it would be very nice indeed to see an arcane caster filling the gish role. I have always house ruled in changes to the Sorcerer class make it different from the Wizard, but only really though about the gish idea after seeing the PRPG sorcerers many melee abilities. There seems to be a great demand for a gish class in dnd, since so many appear in the various splat books.
These types of changes go against one of the main design goals of PRPG, backwards compatibility.
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I think turning the sorcerer into a full gish is a little much, and unlike a lot of the people on these boards, I think that leaving the sorcerer staggered in spell progression is a good idea. I hear lots of complaints online about how underpowered the sorcerer is compared to the wizard, and I simply think it's not true. Sorcerers are by far the preferred arcane casting class in my local play group (one guy prefers wizards, but he's outnumbered by about 20 who don't) and I've seen them be remarkably effective. They are slightly weaker in some ways, but spontaneous casting is a big deal.
Leaving them staggered a level behind other full casters fulfills a major thematic issue as well: sorcerers aren't trained spellcasters, they're able to use magic through a quirk of genetics. They should be slightly less competent at magic than wizards, though not enough to make them overall weaker, and I think that their better weapon selection and now bloodline abilities make up for a lot of the difference.
While I think that giving sorcerers light armor proficiency and allowing them to ignore light armor's arcane failure would be a very cool ability that would definitely bring them up to par with the other spellcasting classes, I'm not certain that it entirely makes sense thematically. I've always kind of seen sorcerers as "commoners + spellcasting mutation", and I'm not sure how I would work light armor proficiency into that view. Of course, there's always the quick rationale that since sorcerers aren't "pure" spellcasters, they've had to pick up other tricks to stay alive, rogue-like.
Jeremy Puckett
Ok heres my thoughts
*Add light armor feat
*Allow casting in light armor because of there unique arcane nature
*Expand bloodline feats at levels 1/3/6/9/12/15/18 and capstone at 20
*Bloodline spells at 2/4/5/7/8/10/11/13/14/16/17/19 chosen from a list
*Eschew Materials at 1st
*Bloodline feats at 1/6/12/18
*change known spells to this list you get spell levels at 4/6/8/10/12/14/16/18 like normal
*0th 4/4/4/5/6/6/6/7/8/8/8/9/10/10/10/11/12/12/12/13
*1st 2/2/3/3/4/5/5/6/7/7/8/9/9/10/11/11/12/13/13/14
*2nd 1/2/2/3/4/4/5/6/6/7/8/8/9/10/10/11/12/
*3rd 1/2/2/3/4/4/5/6/6/7/8/8/9/10/10/
*4th 1/2/2/3/4/4/5/6/6/7/8/8/9
*5th 1/2/2/3/4/4/5/6/6/7/8
*6th 1/2/2/3/4/4/5/6/6
*7th 1/2/2/3/4/4/5
*8th 1/2/2/3/4
*9th 1/2/3
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*Add light armor feat
*Allow casting in light armor because of there unique arcane nature*Eschew Materials at 1st
Definitely agree with this. I have *never* understood how you justify a spontaneous caster needing material components, except as a power limiter, but even then, it isn't much of one.
I've always thought it should be easier for sorcerers to use the metamagic feats than wizards too, wizards have to work for every ounce of power, where as a sorcerer's power should grow as he grows in "strength", he learns less new tricks, but the ones he does know, just get more and more powerful....
(Then again, I've tended to ignore the components in most cases as my real life players don't like reading rules, so it becomes too complicated for them!)
Well in my games sorcerers may add them on the fly at no full round cost.
Unless jason and company pulls some good stuff off that will be my home sorcerer. Well that is it now without the bloodline powers and spells which I will add. Also my home game sorcerers have a spell pool of points. When there pool runs out[like slots] they may fuel it with there own HP'S as subdual damage.
I would kinda like to see some more bloodline abilities, also to intergate alittle of what warlock did. You have armor pros with light and you can cast in it, you have a medium BAB alittle more hp you dont know alot of spells but you can cast them all day long (or just give them more slots). Sorcerer should get alittle more warmage/warlock "ish".
Ok I was bored so i mashed my sorcerer with the pathfinder one..kinda odd but the bloodlines mixed in pretty well
1st=====Bloodline power,Eschew Materials I ,Armored caster 15%
2nd=====Bloodline spell
3rd=====Bloodline power
4th=====Sacrifice the flesh I,Armored caster 20%
5th=====Eschew Materials II , Bloodline spell
6th=====Bloodline Feat
7th=====Bloodline spell
8th=====Armored Caster 25%
9th=====Bloodline power , Bloodline spell
10th====Sacrifice the flesh II , Eschew Materials III
11th====Bloodline spell
12th====Bloodline feat , Armored caster 30%
13th====Bloodline spell
14th====Bloodline spell
15th====Bloodline power , Eschew Materials IV
16th====Sacrifice the flesh III , Armored caster 35%
17th====Bloodline spell
18th====Bloodline feat
19th====Bloodline spell
20th====Bloodline power , Eschew Materials V ,Armored caster 40%
Armored caster: Allows the sorcerer to ignore arcane spell failure. 15% at first level and 5% more every 4 levels there after
Eschew Materials: This allows the sorcerer to ignore material components needed for a spell up to 5 gp in value. This increases every 5 levels. 50gp at 5th,500gp at 10th, 2500gp at 15th and no cost at 20th
Bloodline spells: Each blood line has a set of spells associated with it. You may pick one of any level you may cast from that list.
Sacrifice the flesh Sorcerers may sacrifice there own health to cast spell if needed or pay to cost of meta magic feats without adding to the spells level. Each time you use this you may pay for a spell or metamagic feat's use with your hp. The cost is the level of spell or spell modifier for meta magic x3 at 4th level, x2 at 10th and x1 at16th level.
I will add this very nice list by frank trollman to show what a Bloodline spell list might look like
Aberrant Power
You get power from beyond the spheres, from another world, another time. Your magic is bizarre and strange, outside of what others of your race have experienced.
Cantrips
* Dancing Lights
* Daze
* Resistance
1st Level Spells
* Disguise Self
* Obscuring Mist
* Sleep
2nd Level Spells
* Blur
* Rope Trick
* Touch of Idiocy
3rd Level Spells
* Confusion
* Deep Slumber
* Displacement
4th Level Spells
* Dimension Door
* Evard's Black Tentacles
* Fear
5th Level Spells
* Plane Shift
* Nightmare
* Teleport
6th Level Spells
* Eyebite
* Mass Suggestion
* Shadow Walk
7th Level Spells
* Insanity
* Prismatic Spray
* Teleport Object
8th Level Spells
* Dimensional Lock
* Maze
* Prismatic Wall
9th Level Spells
* Freedom
* Gate
* Prismatic Sphere
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Now with all this i don't know if this is list of known spells is over powered now.
*change known spells to this list you get spell levels at 4/6/8/10/12/14/16/18 like normal
*0th 4/4/4/5/6/6/6/7/8/8/8/9/10/10/10/11/12/12/12/13
*1st 2/2/3/3/4/5/5/6/7/7/8/9/9/10/11/11/12/13/13/14
*2nd 1/2/2/3/4/4/5/6/6/7/8/8/9/10/10/11/12/
*3rd 1/2/2/3/4/4/5/6/6/7/8/8/9/10/10/
*4th 1/2/2/3/4/4/5/6/6/7/8/8/9
*5th 1/2/2/3/4/4/5/6/6/7/8
*6th 1/2/2/3/4/4/5/6/6
*7th 1/2/2/3/4/4/5
*8th 1/2/2/3/4
*9th 1/2/3
I do ask that you look this over and see what ya think
Before changing anything else, I would streamline the sorcerers spell levels and spells known:
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Spells per day (like wizard with +2 per spell level)
0__ 5/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6
1st 3/4/4/5/5/5/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6
2nd -/-/3/4/4/5/5/5/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6
3rd -/-/-/-/3/4/4/5/5/5/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6
4th -/-/-/-/-/-/3/4/4/5/5/5/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6
5th -/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/3/4/4/5/5/5/6/6/6/6/6/6
6th -/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/3/4/4/5/5/5/6/6/6/6
7th -/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/3/4/4/5/5/5/6/6
8th -/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/3/4/4/5/5/6
9th -/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/3/4/5/6
Spells known
0__ 4/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5
1st 2/3/3/4/4/4/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5
2nd -/-/2/3/3/4/4/4/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5
3rd -/-/-/-/2/3/3/4/4/4/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5
4th -/-/-/-/-/-/2/3/3/4/4/4/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5
5th -/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/2/3/3/4/4/4/5/5/5/5/5/5
6th -/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/2/3/3/4/4/4/5/5/5/5
7th -/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/2/3/3/4/4/4/5/5
8th -/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/2/3/3/4/4/5
9th -/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/2/3/4/5
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I feel the sorcerer should not gain light armored casting (automatically, though PrC is fine), additional skill points, or medium base attack. Those options are available in the flavor of non-core classes.
What I do think the sorcerer needs is Spell Power. The one ability offered for this is School Power in the Arcane bloodline. A base sorcerer PC's primary concern (IMO) is the DC of his spells. As such, I see the new sorcerer as no more attractive beyond mid-level than it has been, with a single exception.
My suggestion is to work Spell Power into the abilities of all high-level primary casters, including clerics, druids, wizards, and sorcerers. At high levels, the monsters can have up to twice the hit dice (or more) than the PCs, which then adds to their saving throws.
I think Spell Power is a bit of power creep that helps this issue, but if there is a better solution in the Alpha 3 monster creation guide I'm sure I'll like it.
Dracodruid I'm taking your spell list I like it and think my first draft was to much.
so we have
1st=====Bloodline power,Eschew Materials I
2nd=====Bloodline spell
3rd=====Bloodline power
4th=====Sacrifice the flesh I,
5th=====Eschew Materials II , Bloodline spell
6th=====Bloodline Feat
7th=====Bloodline spell
8th=====Bloodline spell
9th=====Bloodline power , Bloodline spell
10th====Sacrifice the flesh II , Eschew Materials III
11th====Bloodline spell
12th====Bloodline feat
13th====Bloodline spell
14th====Bloodline spell
15th====Bloodline power , Eschew Materials IV
16th====Sacrifice the flesh III
17th====Bloodline spell
18th====Bloodline feat
19th====Bloodline spell
20th====Bloodline power , Eschew Materials V
Eschew Materials: This allows the sorcerer to ignore material components needed for a spell up to 5 gp in value. This increases every 5 levels. 50gp at 5th,500gp at 10th, 2500gp at 15th and no cost at 20th
Bloodline spells: Each blood line has a set of spells associated with it. You may pick one of any level you may cast from that list at a +1 DC[ each time this is taken must be a different spell it does not stack].
Sacrifice the flesh Sorcerers may sacrifice there own health to cast spell if needed or pay to cost of meta magic feats without adding to the spells level. Each time you use this you may pay for a spell or metamagic feat's use with your hp. The cost is the level of spell or spell modifier for meta magic x3 at 4th level, x2 at 10th and x1 at16th level.
I will add this very nice list by frank trollman to show what a Bloodline spell list might look like
Aberrant Power
You get power from beyond the spheres, from another world, another time. Your magic is bizarre and strange, outside of what others of your race have experienced.
Cantrips
* Dancing Lights
* Daze
* Resistance
1st Level Spells
* Disguise Self
* Obscuring Mist
* Sleep
2nd Level Spells
* Blur
* Rope Trick
* Touch of Idiocy
3rd Level Spells
* Confusion
* Deep Slumber
* Displacement
4th Level Spells
* Dimension Door
* Evard's Black Tentacles
* Fear
5th Level Spells
* Plane Shift
* Nightmare
* Teleport
6th Level Spells
* Eyebite
* Mass Suggestion
* Shadow Walk
7th Level Spells
* Insanity
* Prismatic Spray
* Teleport Object
8th Level Spells
* Dimensional Lock
* Maze
* Prismatic Wall
9th Level Spells
* Freedom
* Gate
* Prismatic Sphere
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Spells per day (like wizard with +2 per spell level)
0__ 5/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6
1st 3/4/4/5/5/5/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6
2nd -/-/3/4/4/5/5/5/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6
3rd -/-/-/-/3/4/4/5/5/5/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6
4th -/-/-/-/-/-/3/4/4/5/5/5/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6
5th -/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/3/4/4/5/5/5/6/6/6/6/6/6
6th -/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/3/4/4/5/5/5/6/6/6/6
7th -/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/3/4/4/5/5/5/6/6
8th -/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/3/4/4/5/5/6
9th -/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/3/4/5/6
Spells known
0__ 4/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5
1st 2/3/3/4/4/4/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5
2nd -/-/2/3/3/4/4/4/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5
3rd -/-/-/-/2/3/3/4/4/4/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5
4th -/-/-/-/-/-/2/3/3/4/4/4/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5
5th -/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/2/3/3/4/4/4/5/5/5/5/5/5
6th -/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/2/3/3/4/4/4/5/5/5/5
7th -/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/2/3/3/4/4/4/5/5
8th -/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/2/3/3/4/4/5
9th -/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/2/3/4/5
Now I'M not sure on the armor casting should i work on it or rip it out?
Dracodruid I'm taking your spell list I like it and think my first draft was to much.
Be my guest.
Everyone take a look in here!
Ok I took out armor caster Also added a +1 dc to bloodline spells
I think this looks ok now may have to fool with it a bit more
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I really don't agree with everyones opionion that the Sorc is underpowered. Since the addition of bloodlines the Sorc is right along with a wizard. Most of the first level bloodline talents have the sorc. being able to do damage with touch attacks. However, I do think that eschew materials is an interesting idea, maybe even add a flaw system for Sorc who has to have materials. I also like uping the skill selection for the Sorc. I have a player actually says that he prefers Sorc over wizards. Besides the wizard is usually a pompus jerk, while the Sorc. is charismatic hero who everyone loves.
Well, I personally don't find Sorcerer underpowered. I merely wish more skill points and spells known for it be more versatile! Currently the problem of a sorcerer is its one-trick-pony-ness.
Eschew Materials just because, well, a sorcerer casts spontanously. I imagine one in my head as one who doesn't get his hands dirty with bat guano.
Eschew Materials just because, well, a sorcerer casts spontanously. I imagine one in my head as one who doesn't get his hands dirty with bat guano.
LOL. We adopted Eschew Materials as a free bonus feat for sorcerors as a house rule after a particularly memorable encounter with a bat swarm, after which my fire sorceror literally stopped to gather some necessary spell components.
The only reason I could possibly see for Sorcerers not having Eschew Materials is if in the world history the sorcerers originally trained the wizards.
I have to agree that perhaps that making it more in the fray class may be a good option. I would agree that higher BAB and possibly light armour. Though if it is designed as a "gish" class (where the heck does that term originate from?) I beleive that the slower progression of spells should remain.
Oh and ummm...Corrupting Touch under Infernal Bloodline needs revamping. Its not exactly useful, since it doesn't last long enough to cast the enchantment spell that it supposedly makes the victim more vulnerable too.
Sorcerer as the Arcane Psychic Warrior (Kind of), I like.