ok heres my first take on it.IMHO white necromancers are about healing and such so here is my take on it.
White Necromancy School
Specialist Bonus:
Spontaneous Casting: A white necromancer can channel stored spell energy into healing
spells that she did not prepare ahead of time. The necromancer
can “lose” any prepared spell that is not an orison in order
to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure
spell is any spell with “cure” in its name).
Caster
Level Ability
1st Rebuke Death (Su): You can touch a creature as a standard
action, healing it of 1d4 points of damage plus 1 for every
two caster levels you possess. You can only use this ability
on a creature that is below 0 hit points. If you touch an
undead creature with this effect, it is shaken for a number
of rounds equal to your caster level..
2nd Cure Light Wounds (Sp): You can cast cure light wounds 1/
day per 2 caster levels you possess
4th Lesser Restoration (Sp): You can cast lesser restoration 1/day.
6th speak with dead (Sp): You can cast speak with dead 1/day.
8th Healer’s Blessing (Su): You can emit a 30-ft. aura of healing
for a number of rounds per day equal to your caster level.
You and your allies within this aura gain fast healing equal
to 1/4 your caster level as long as they remain in range.
This fast healing only applies to damage caused after the
aura began. These rounds do not need to be consecutive
10th Mass Cure Light Wounds (Sp): You can cast mass cure light
wounds 1/day.
12th Undeath to death(Sp): You can cast undeath to deathd 1/day
.
14th Greater Restoration (Sp): You can cast greater restoration 1/day.
16th mass cure moderate wounds [sp] cast mass cure moderate wounds 1/day
18th mass cure serious wounds (Sp): You can cast mass cure serious wounds 1/day.
20th Mass Heal (Sp): You can cast mass heal 1/day.
and now a spell list
White Necromancy
Oth
• Disrupt Undead: Deals 1d6 damage to one undead.
• Touch of Invigoration: Touch attack removes fatigue from target target.
1st
• Remove Fear: Suppresses fear or gives +4 on saves against fear for one subject + one per four levels.
• Chill Touch: One touch/level deals 1d6 damage and possibly 1 Str damage.
• Ray of Enfeeblement: Ray deals 1d6 +1 per two levels Str damage.
• Cure Light Wounds: Cures 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5)
• Necrotic AwarenessF: Sense encysted subjects[lLM]
• Deathwatch: Reveals how near death subjects within 30 ft. are.
• Detect Undead: Reveals undead within 60 ft.
• Hide from Undead: Undead can’t perceive one subject/level.
2nd
• Blindness/Deafness: Makes subject blinded or deafened.
• Command Undead: Undead creature obeys your commands.
• False Life: Gain 1d10 temporary hp +1/level (max +10).
• Spectral Hand: Creates disembodied glowing hand to deliver touch attacks.
• Cure Moderate Wounds: Cures 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10).
• Delay Poison: Stops poison from harming subject for 1 hour/level.
• Gentle Repose: Preserves one corpse.
• Hold Person: Paralyzes one humanoid for 1 round/level.
• Remove Paralysis: Frees one or more creatures from paralysis or slow effect.
• Restoration, Lesser: Dispels magical ability penalty or repairs 1d4 ability damage.
• Spawn Screen: You resist being transformed into an undead spawn if slain.[SC]
• Stolen Breath: Subject has wind knocked out of it[SC]
3RD
.*Cure Serious Wounds: Cures 3d8 damage +1/level (max +15).
*Halt Undead: Immobilizes undead for 1 round/level.
• Remove Curse: Frees object or person from curse.
• Remove Disease: Cures all diseases affecting subject.
Speak with Dead: Corpse answers one question/two levels. Disrupt Undead, Greater: As disrupt undead, but1d8 damage/level.
4TH
• Animate Dead M: Creates undead skeletons and zombies.
• Bestow Curse: -6 to an ability score; -4 on attack rolls, saves, and checks; or 50% chance of losing each action.
Cure Critical Wounds: Cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +20)
. Death Ward: Grants immunity to death spells and negative energy effects
Neutralize Poison: Immunizes subject against poison, detoxifies venom in or on subject.
Restoration M: Restores level and ability score drains..
5TH
• Magic Jar F: Enables possession of another creature.
• Symbol of Pain M: Triggered rune wracks nearby creatures with pain.
• Waves of Fatigue: Several targets become fatigued.
Cure Light Wounds, Mass: Cures 1d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Disrupting Weapon: Melee weapon destroys undead.
Raise Dead M: Restores life to subject who died as long as one day/level ago.
Symbol of Sleep M: Triggered rune puts nearby creatures into catatonic slumber.
Wrack: Renders creature helpless with pain.[SC]
6TH
• Create Undead M: Creates ghouls, ghasts, mummies, or mohrgs.
• Symbol of Fear M: Triggered rune panics nearby creatures.
• Undeath to Death M: Destroys 1d4/level HD of undead (max 20d4).
Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass: Cures 2d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Heal: Cures 10 points/level of damage, all diseases and mental conditions.
Spectral Touch: Your touch bestows one negative level/round[SC]
7TH
• Control Undead: Undead don’t attack you while under your command.
• Symbol of Weakness M: Triggered rune weakens nearby creatures.
• Waves of Exhaustion: Several targets become exhausted.
• Cure Serious Wounds, Mass: Cures 3d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
• Regenerate: Subject’s severed limbs grow back, cures 4d8 damage +1/level(max+35).
• Repulsion: Creatures can’t approach you.
• Restoration, Greater X: As restoration, plus restores all levels and ability scores.
• Resurrection M: Fully restore dead subject.
• Symbol of Stunning M: Triggered rune stuns nearby creatures.
8TH
Clone M F: Duplicate awakens when original dies.
Cure Critical Wounds, Mass: Cures 4d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Heart of StoneFX: Exchange your heart with stone heart to gain damage reduction, resistance to energy for 1 year.[SC]
9TH
Astral Projection M: Projects you and companions onto Astral Plane.
• Heal, Mass: As heal, but with several subjects.
.
• Soul Bind F: Traps newly dead soul to prevent resurrection.
• True Resurrection M: As resurrection, plus remains aren’t needed.
TY I liked it needs some work not alot of non evil nerco spells .
Making Healer Wizards? No offense, but if you give this as a specialist wizard grouping, then you're just asking for a broken caster. I know the intent, but White Necromancy should not be healing; it should be Necromancy spells that do not create, help or control undead. For example:
2nd - Chill Touch (scaring them away)
4th - False Life (like the normal, this is a fun, useful, and non-undead spell)
6th - Vampiric Touch (like False Life)
etc.
I see White Necromancy as you houseruling in a few other spells for spells on the Necro Specialist list that have to do with undead (like Create Undead) or ones that are too overly death-y (like Horrid Wilting). It seems better as a houseruled thing than an official school or specialty.
I dont see how its broken but as I said its a first draft more then anything.The way I see it as there the other side of the coin.they deal in life and healing ,not harm and death
I dont see how its broken but as I said its a first draft more then anything.The way I see it as there the other side of the coin.they deal in life and healing ,not harm and death
I understand what you're trying to do, but no matter how much they're dealing in life and healing, a Cleric can do that better, so why not be one?
I see the problem being a Wizard who Fireballs an enemy and then proceeds to heal others; it takes over too many roles that other classes are meant to have. Even the 1st level ability is the Healing Domain ability, if I am not mistaken. You are trying to make a Red Mage at the same power level as the Wizard, which is inherently impossible (Red Mages able to cast spells at the same level as Wizs and Clrs are too powerful, as I know from experience).
yep I took it from healing domain.and the cleric spells are very limited but I do see your point as well but to me it makes sence that they deal in healing . But any ideal to tone them down or make in more in line I would be happy to hear.
I think cure spells should (again) be divine necromancy spells.
Summoning (Healing) only makes moderately sense if you have a plane of positive energy, which I guess almost no cosmology currently around has.
And inflict spells allready are necromancy spells, though they also summon negative energy from the negative energy plane.
Cure spells are a good example, why necromancy is the power over life and death. Death ward is another necromancy spell that protects from the magic of undeath.
I disagree with your idea on a conceptual level.
I've never viewed a white necromancer as a healer, per say. They're still necromancers, and one of the defining elements of the specialization is that it deals specifically in death energies and dark magics. I think this should remain. It's how they apply these energies, their intent in utilizing their magic, that seperates them from the traditional necromancer.
Whereas a traditional necromancer may create and control undead, a white necromancer focuses on destroying them. Whereas a traditional necromancer may set out to steal or destroy abilities and skills, a white necromancer sets out to cure, and in some cases even buff, these factors.
Even though it deals with death magic, the necromancy school itself should be neutral. It's how the magic is used by the specialist that defines them, not the magic itself.
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Necromancy, like the Illusion school, is really a 'proud nail' like no other.
If I summon creatures from Heaven, Arcadia, Olympus, Hell, Nirvana, Limbo, Gehenna, Acheron, the Abyss, etc. It's Conjuration. If I summon demons, Conjuration. Angels, Conjuration. Lawful bugs that cure wounds and build stuff really fast, Conjuration. Chaotic frog-people that inject you with pellets that turn you into other frog-people, Conjuration. Undead, ConnnNecromancy!
If I conjure up energy from another plane, such as, say, the Positive Energy Plane, it's Conjuration. If I conjure up energy from the Negative Energy Plane, it's Necromancy?
If I animate objects, it's Transmutation. If I animate an object that used to be a living tree, it's *still* Transmutation. If I animate an object that used to be a person or animal, it's Necromancy?
If I make you happy, it's Enchantment. Sad? Enchantment. Angry? Enchantment. Horny? Enchantment. Hungry? Enchantment. Sleepy? Enchantment. Scared? EnnnnNecromancy?
Necromancy, as a School, doesn't actually have a 'thing.' It's just a collection of Evocations, Conjurations, Transmutations and Enchantments that have some sort of 'dark, scary, dead people' theme.
All it really is doing as a 'school' at that this point is making sure that Enchanters can do anything to your mind except make you scared and Transmuters can animate anything that wasn't once a person and Conjurors can summon up anything that isn't undead.
Illusion is much the same way, a hodge-podge of phantasms from Enchantment, light-manipulations from Transmutation, shadow conjurations from Conjuration and light/darkness creating abilities from Evocation, loosely flung together and pretending to be a school of magic. Illusion and Necromancy are 'theme schools,' collections of powers from other schools tossed into their own pseudo-school, they aren't, in 2E parlance, 'schools of effect.'
The whole 'white necromancy' thing is just a further subdivision of an already dubious and unnecessary category.
Backwards compatibility requires that it remain, but dividing it into two different sub-versions of Necromancy would just defeat the purpose. The class options should be usable for either branch, and any starting power, for *any* School (not just Necromancy) should be one of two or three different options. Necromancer A might have a healing touch, 'helping the body to fight the forces of death,' Necromancer B might have a pet Skeleton, and Necromancer C might be able to query the freshly dead.
Similarly, Conjuror A might be able to whip up small material objects, while Conjuror B has the ability to summon up a Familiar, and Conjuror C can summon fog or something.
thanks for the input guys let me rework this and take two .
ok guys round 2 . spell list is mostly the same with a few spells added.
Necromancy School
Specialist Bonus:
Any attack in which you deal damage to undead you get
an extra +1 to damage per caster level
Caster
Level Ability
1st Grave Touch (Su): As a standard action, you can make a
melee touch attack that deals 1d6 points of cold damage
+1 for every two caster levels you possess. Creatures
damaged by this attack automatically fail all stabilization
checks made within 1 minute of your touch.
2nd Ray of Enfeeblement (Sp): You can cast ray of enfeeblement 1/
day per 2 caster levels you possess.
4th False Life (Sp): You can cast false life 1/day.
6th Vampiric Touch (Sp): You can cast vampiric touch 1/day.
8th Sleep of the dead[SP] Once per day you may destroy your HD
In mindless undead this has a range of 5 ft per caster level
10th Waves of Fatigue (Sp): You can cast waves of fatigue 1/day.
12th undeath to death {sp} you can cast undeath to death 1/day
14th Finger of Death (Sp): You can cast finger of death 1/day.
16th Horrid Wilting (Sp): You can cast horrid wilting 1/day.
18th Energy Drain (Sp): You can cast energy drain 1/day.
20th Undead slayer{sp] you can cast maximized undeath to death 2/day
spells
White necromancy 2
0th
• Disrupt Undead: Deals 1d6 damage to one undead.
• Touch of Fatigue: Touch attack fatigues target.
1st
• Cause Fear: One creature of 5 HD or less flees for 1d4 rounds.
• Chill Touch: One touch/level deals 1d6 damage and possibly 1 Str damage.
• Ray of Enfeeblement: Ray deals 1d6 +1 per two levels Str damage
*Deathwatch: Reveals how near death subjects within 30 ft. are.
Detect Undead: Reveals undead within 60 ft.
Hide from Undead: Undead can’t perceive one subject/level.
2nd
• Blindness/Deafness: Makes subject blinded or deafened.
• Command Undead: Undead creature obeys your commands.
• False Life: Gain 1d10 temporary hp +1/level (max +10).
• Ghoul Touch: Paralyzes one subject, which exudes stench that makes those nearby sickened.
• Scare: Panics creatures of less than 6 HD.
• Spectral Hand: Creates disembodied glowing hand to deliver touch attacks.
3rd
• Gentle Repose: Preserves one corpse.
• Halt Undead: Immobilizes undead for 1 round/level.
• Ray of Exhaustion: Ray makes subject exhausted.
• Vampiric Touch:Touch deals 1d6/two levels damage; caster gains damage as hp Speak with Dead: Corpse answers one question/two levels.
4th
Bestow Curse: -6 to an ability score; -4 on attack rolls, saves, and checks; or 50% chance of losing each action.
• Contagion: Infects subject with chosen disease.
• Enervation: Subject gains 1d4 negative levels.
• Fear: Subjects within cone flee for 1 round/level.
• Death Ward: Grants immunity to death spells and negative energy effects.
5th
• Blight: Withers one plant or deals 1d6/level damage to plant creature.
• Magic Jar F: Enables possession of another creature.
• Symbol of Pain M: Triggered rune wracks nearby creatures with pain.
• Waves of Fatigue: Several targets become fatigued.
• Disrupting Weapon: Melee weapon destroys undead.
6th
• Circle of Death M: Kills 1d4/level HD of creatures. .
• Eyebite: Target becomes panicked, sickened, and comatose.
• Symbol of Fear M: Triggered rune panics nearby creatures.
• Undeath to Death M: Destroys 1d4/level HD of undead (max 20d4)
7th
• Control Undead: Undead don’t attack you while under your command.
• Finger of Death: Kills one subject.
• Symbol of Weakness M: Triggered rune weakens nearby creatures.
• Waves of Exhaustion: Several targets become exhausted.
8th
• Clone M F: Duplicate awakens when original dies.
• Horrid Wilting: Deals 1d6/level damage within 30 ft.
• Symbol of Death M: Triggered rune slays nearby creatures.
9th
• Astral Projection M: Projects you and companions onto Astral Plane.
• Energy Drain: Subject gains 2d4 negative levels.
• Soul Bind F: Traps newly dead soul to prevent resurrection.
• Wail of the Banshee: Kills one creature/level.
ok guys what ya think this time?
Actually, as an alternative replacement for healing, why not give them the ability to transfer hit points from themselves to others? Just as a touch and a standard action, give them the ability to pass as many hit points as they possess (or less than that, if they wish) to whomever they are touching. It allows them to smite undead, heal living, and not really infringe on Clerics. It's also a single ability, and a good back-up for situations (as an example) where the Cleric is down.
It seems to fit the concept behind necromancy well; rather than channelling positive energy, the necromancer would be manipulating life energy.
I think such an effect would best be achieved through a new spell (or spells, if you would like having tiers of power for the effect), rather than an ability.
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Actually, as an alternative replacement for healing, why not give them the ability to transfer hit points from themselves to others?
That's a pretty cool idea. It could be beefed up slightly by having the Necromancer take nonlethal damage (but heal lethal damage), allowing him to recover somewhat more quickly from using this ability.
I think an interesting twist for white necromancy could be accelerated aging for immediate benifits. The aging could be figured in a proportional manner to avoid elves and dragons casting them wily nilly (in fact they would give up more for in the grand scheme of things)
By it's very nature this type of Necromancy would have a limited shelf life, but you could give 'overpowered' effects for the spell level. It could be interested to start adventuring with a spry youth and within a year of hard adventuring, have a long-bearded grognard telling you how things were better in his day... 12 months ago...
Example:
Time Heals All Wounds
Level: Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes
Creature touched gains Fast Healing 10.
Component: 1/10th of your life.
Mind you I think that one is too strong, but it's only a thought.
Why not just give cure spells to sorcerers/wizards?
This is a repost from another thread i posted to:
Whether, a character is the common image of an wicked and vile necromancer or a "enlightened necromancer" (a term thrown around in many 2nd edition books) is more a function of character concept, background and style of play than it is anything in mechanics. Both have the same powers/spells. What seperates them is the how and why they use them. An enlightened necromancer could easily animate the body of an executed criminal seeing using the body as a servant to be fitting. Or unleash enervation on a bandit leader so that even if he escapes he may very well be less of a threat.
It comes down to WHY not WHAT you do that differentiates between the type of necromancers. Not alignment or class features.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
Is kinda a pet topic of mine, necromancers. I always loved to view them as the kind of wizards that meddle with the energies of Life and Death (Positive and Negative, respectively), two poles that are completely different from the Elements. Allowing them to shift life around from themselves to others and back, or between others, using it to bring corpses to unlife and manipulate the living tissues as well, scaring living creatures by the aura of Death they spread, not by creating artificial emotions. I always put some arcane healing (shifting life around) on a necromancer's list of spells. And I think it only takes some different reasoning and background for this branch of magic to actually feel different, not just be a collection of weird snippets of other schools. :)
While I like what you've done, I don't like the fact that for the most part you only gain SLA for being a specialist. I would much rather see original abilities (But thats just me).
Wizards healing isn't game breaking, it's not even new. As many people have noted, a Wizard conjurer can already heal through the expedient of conjuring up Formians, Energons, or Healing Salves. And while such healing is generally limited to non-combat uses, it is well and truly massive in terms of how much total healing can be accomplished in a day.
And that's fine. Frankly, combat healing is generally speaking really a bad option (Andy Collins and Skip Williams have both admitted as such) Indeed, the reason that Clerics are given so many awesome toys to play with is because combat healing is such a crap thing to do (apparently you're going to be doing some of it anyway, so the rest of your spell slots and combat actions are supposed to be better than what other people have and do).
But it all comes down to the basic fact: Clerics have one of the best Class Chassis in the entire game. Wizards have the absolute worst. If your spells and actions as a Wizard are not substantially better than what a Cleric is capable of, then your character is getting screwed. Healing worse than a Cleric is insulting. Hell, healing as well as a Cleric would be insulting. If you wanted to make a Healer Wizard, he should heal better than a Cleric, by a large margin. Otherwise the fact that a real Cleric has better hit points, armor, saves, special abilities, more spell slots, a better spell learning mechanic, and so on will come back and reduce you to hobo status.
So if you aren't willing to make a Wizard Healer into the party's primary healer - to the point that the party Cleric goes off and does other things - then you aren't willing to make a Wizard Healer that's a playable concept and you should let the entire concept drop. That dog don't hunt.
-Frank
ya know I haven't fooled with this sence the day I thought of it. I do that alot this was something I came up with in like 10 mins and put no real work or thought into it I was bored. But frank brings up some good points and a better healer is worth looking into. This has got me thinking of 3 schools black/white/grey hummm worth some more thought maybe.
Personally, I've always been in the camp of "make the cure/inflict spells necromancy, and make them available to wizards/sorcerers."
Personally, I've always been in the camp of "make the cure/inflict spells necromancy, and make them available to wizards/sorcerers."
But what incentive could exist that would convince a Wizard to actually learn and prepare one? At that point, he'd have reduced himself to being a Cleric with less spells, less resilience and less frills. A wizard spending actual spell slots on cures or inflicts is a hobo.
-Frank
Suppose that there isn't a cleric in the group? And I've also recommended nerfing the cleric class skeleton, of course.
Plus I'm sure that there are a few players out there who take satisfaction in healing. When I played Anarchy Online, I loved playing a doctor, but that might have been because I got to use viruses and a shotgun against my enemies.
Suppose that there isn't a cleric in the group? \
Then you should play a Cleric if you intend to be demoted to healslave.
Seriously. Accepting a Wizard chassis and casting Cleric spells makes you a hobo.
-Frank
I view clerics to wield divine power (power over morale, negative and positive energy, fiends and celestials) and wizards to wield arcane and elemental power (power over the different energies, other realms, and primal emotions such as rage and fear). This is the basic difference in D&D3 between the cleric and the wizard.
There are overlapping areas however. A cleric gains elemental spells such as flame strike, but does so at a later level as not to become the main blaster opposed by the wizard. The wizard gains the ability to channel positive and negative energy as well, but in a more selfish way (such as vampiric touch).
To make a wizard that can heal everyone around him is to greatly destroy the balance between arcane and divine casters. If you want to make a white necromancer (or a grey necromancer as I like to call them), use spells to destroy undead rather than making them and to assault the very life force of opponents (ray of enfeeblement, enervate).
The necromancer ability of Pathfinder Alpha indeed has black necromancy written all over it. However, you could easily make a house rule to change it to one of the following:
- Necromancy Metamagic Catalyst: all Metamagic feats increase spell level by one less than normal with necromancy spells (multiple metamagic on one spell increase spell level by one in total).
- Gain 2 negative energy resistance per caster level.
- Gain +2 bonus to saving throws against ability drain, level drain, etc... OR against the abilities of undead in general.
- Undead have a 5% chance per caster level to percieve you as an undead creature. Intelligent undead are allowed a saving throw against this effect (Will DC 10 + caster level + Cha modifier)
- ...
Spell lists should NOT be adjusted, and certainly not by adding healing spells into the mix. Such a thing would severely undermine the cleric's main function.
I view clerics to wield divine power (power over morale, negative and positive energy, fiends and celestials) and wizards to wield arcane and elemental power (power over the different energies, other realms, and primal emotions such as rage and fear). This is the basic difference in D&D3 between the cleric and the wizard.
Since both classes can do all of these, that seems a really weak distinction. 9 times out of 10, they are doing the same thing in slightly different ways.
Flamestrike in particular is only in the cleric list because Gygax sat down and made a list of everything remotely magical in the Old Testament. But, frankly, its 3rd edition now, and blasting spells in combat rank down at the bottom with in-combat healing- once in a while, its a useful thing to pull out of your utility belt, but its seriously marginal compared to what you could do.
Your necromancer school- the metamagic catalyst is bad. Metamagic shenanigans quickly get out of hand, particularly once you start lowering the cost.
The other stuff is almost passable if you're running an entire 'against the undead' campaign, but so situational as to be almost worthless if you aren't.
As to the last- you could, I suppose, make a long argument that the cleric as heal monkey/bot/slave is 'designer intent', and have something of a point. However, its one of the worst ways to actually play a cleric in terms of effectiveness and helping the party. Dropping the monsters as fast as possible will save you a lot more damage (and therefor healing and spells) in the long run.
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I love the idea of necromantic "healing", reversing the process of death. But your build seems to make Necromancers better healers than clerics. I feel that White Necromancy should not even match the clerics healing power, but still exceed that of a druid or bard.
The justification for arcane healing is already in the game: Bards.
I think Necromantic healing should accompany a "downside", like a special class rule that when casting a healing spell the Necromancer loses some hit points, or the recipient of the spell takes a penalty to saving throws for 10 minutes. With a downside, it is easier to give them the clerics list of healing spells without altering levels.
I think Necromantic healing should accompany a "downside", like a special class rule that when casting a healing spell the Necromancer loses some hit points, or the recipient of the spell takes a penalty to saving throws for 10 minutes. With a downside, it is easier to give them the clerics list of healing spells without altering levels.
They already have a downside. They have lots of downsides. They:
- Have less hit points.
- Have worse saves.
- Can't cast in armor.
- don't have heavy armor proficiency or shield proficiency.
- Can use less weapons.
- Can cast less spells per day.
- Have to keep a spell book.
- Don't know all the spells on their list.
- Have only one specialty instead of two.
- Have a worse attack bonus.
- Can't turn undead.
- Can't spontaneously cast cure spells.
Downside? How about the twelve downsides that they have just for getting up in the morning with levels of Wizard instead of having levels of Cleric. Yeah, if the Wizard wasn't casting actual healing spells that were way better than what the Cleric was throwing down with, the Wizard character would be underpowered every time he cast healing spells at all.
-Frank
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Downside? How about the twelve downsides that they have just for getting up in the morning with levels of Wizard instead of having levels of Cleric. Yeah, if the Wizard wasn't casting actual healing spells that were way better than what the Cleric was throwing down with, the Wizard character would be underpowered every time he cast healing spells at all.
This is a slightly different argument that addresses the basic mechanics of the wizard class compared to the cleric class, whereas I was referring plainly to the comparative ability of each class to heal. The build presented above makes Necromancers into better healers than clerics, so from a mechanics standpoint that takes something away from the cleric and his somewhat limited spell list. It follows the argument in the DMG that if you build a class that does something better than a core class (fighter is used specifically), you have made a broken class. Obviously, the necromancer can offset a limited ability to heal by choosing spells such as Timestop that are unavailable to (most) clerics.
From a pure roleplaying standpoint, using the Necromantic arts to heal someone should not function the same way as using divine power. Of course, since my argument is based on roleplaying, I could have also argued that making the material component for a healing spell the finger from a human corpse (or somesuch distasteful item) would be a fine limitation as well.
But your point about wizards is agreed with, it is why I think wizards should get domains in the first place.
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But it all comes down to the basic fact: Clerics have one of the best Class Chassis in the entire game. Wizards have the absolute worst. If your spells and actions as a Wizard are not substantially better than what a Cleric is capable of, then your character is getting screwed. Healing worse than a Cleric is insulting. Hell, healing as well as a Cleric would be insulting. If you wanted to make a Healer Wizard, he should heal better than a Cleric, by a large margin. Otherwise the fact that a real Cleric has better hit points, armor, saves, special abilities, more spell slots, a better spell learning mechanic, and so on will come back and reduce you to hobo status.So if you aren't willing to make a Wizard Healer into the party's primary healer - to the point that the party Cleric goes off and does other things - then you aren't willing to make a Wizard Healer that's a playable concept and you should let the entire concept drop. That dog don't hunt.
Frank,
Your arguments seemed to be based around the fact that if the wizard can not heal X amount of damage with Y amount of spell-slots, then the wizard is an inferior choice for a player. But at least it is a CHOICE. Sure, mathematically the wizard will never be as optimal a healer as the cleric, especially in combat, but as you mentioned, out of combat is where most healing should occur.
My point is, that with a White Necromancer, you can now use wands and staffs (and arcane scrolls) that perform healing ability - outside of combat, which requires no sacrifice of daily abilities or class options such as skill points in Use Magic.
Plus, add in the power of item creation feats, and suddenly you have a character who can not only use these items, but create them. Seriously, how many players make a cleric capable of crafting magic rings or staves. I think this is an incredibly balancing factor.
I'll give this some more thought today. And necromancy deals in 3 things really . The wounded ,the dead and the dying no matter how you look at it thats the core. So my thoughts where black necromancy cause thous 3 white necromancy should fix them. Both deal in the same things but in opposite ways.
Necromancy is about the dead. It seems that what you mean by "White Necromancy" is actually "Biomancy". That opens up several new options - like cross breeding, homoluci creation, etc.
Actually, it's about death magic and negative energy, not simply the dead.
Wasn't there something like this in second ed? Good aligned wizard necromancers who made very, very few undead (and treated them like honored friends), and got weak healing magic at higher levels? I think it was a kit presented in an issue of Dragon or something.
Wasn't there something like this in second ed? Good aligned wizard necromancers who made very, very few undead (and treated them like honored friends), and got weak healing magic at higher levels? I think it was a kit presented in an issue of Dragon or something.
It was the "Anatomist" kit, from the Complete Book of Necromancers, or something similar (2nd Edition). It was one of the most fun kits I played. As a necromancer, it was a nice twist, especially since the gaming environment persecuted most clerics as heritics (ala early Dragonlance). "Finding" the bodies on which to experiment and perfect my practice was the only icky thing, that challenged the alignment play.
Part of the problem I would have with the inclusion of a "white necromancer" in the core book or even a peripherla book is it opens a huge flood gate. If the necromancer gets such division and attention then why dont other casters? Evocation and conjuration cover most of the elemental effect, so does each type of elementalist deserve a seperate write-up as some have advocated for a "white necromancer"? I personally dont think so. And there are many more divisions of each school and how they can be used. The floodgate would be every one with a favorite subtype of specialist wizard wanting their pet wizard to get the same treatment.
The main bone of contention I have seen is arcane necromancy's lack of healing and restorative magics. I proposed a possible solution to this i another thread. A feat that allowed a caster to add spells from another spell list to their own spell list. How many would have to be worked out exactly, but perhaps a number of spells equal to the character's casting attribute bonus. This would allow a benign necromancer to add the various Cure X WOunds spells to his list and a malevolent necromancer to add the various Cause X Wounds to theirs. Or a fire specialist wizard to add flamestrike. Could even restrict the spells to being those of schools/domains a character has if you wanted. All without necessitating a sub-class of a sub-class writeup which is what a "white necromancer" would amount to being.
- Weylin Stormcrowe
Said a lot of stuff about Necromancy
I think a better way to do specialist wizards is to do them as conceptual specialist.
For example, a necromancer (specialist) has access to spells related to death and the undeath, regardless of school. Give them detect undead at will at 1st level. Given them access to some clerical spells that ward of death effects, including limited healing.
This helps distinguish specialist from universal wizards by giving them access to typically non-wizard spells. Additionally, the concept path opens the possibility for elementalists wizards.