Acrobatics - Moving Past an Opponent's Square p.22

[Ask a Shoanti]

I am enjoying Pathfinder Alpha – thanks for making it publicly available and including us in the process.

Here is a small suggested design change. The change is respecting the second use of the Acrobatics skill: moving past opponents without drawing attacks of opportunity (p.22).

Currently the skill is resolved through the use of rolling over a static DC of 15. It’s easy to remember and easy to resolve.

But this has three collateral effects which I think might be avoided:

At higher levels success becomes a near certainty. At level 10 rogue (13 ranks) with a 14 Dex (+2 modifier) only ever fails on a 1. There is minimal risk and excitement.

Conversely at lower levels PCs would be relatively unwise to try it. The chance of success is low to average and the consequences are quite serious with a PC’s relatively low hit points.

There is no difference in the risk of tumbling past a level 1 commoner and a level 20 fighter.

Suggestion:

Change the Acrobatics DC to 10 + the BAB of the opponent whom is getting tumbled past. Hence tumbling by an orc at level 1 the DC is 11. Moving past a 5th level fighter is DC 15, and moving past a 20th level fighter is DC 30.

Similarly the DC for moving through an opponent’s square could be DC 20 + BAB.

P.S. Apologies to anyone who has already posted this idea somewhere already but I missed it. I am sure this is a house rule already somewhere.

[Locke1520]

Ask a Shoanti wrote:

Conversely at lower levels PCs would be relatively unwise to try it. The chance of success is low to average and the consequences are quite serious with a PC’s relatively low hit points.

Actually right now with the forced max skills a 15 DC is very doable for a level 1 PC. It's only an 11 on the die roll for a trained character.

[Craig Shackleton]

I agree that low-level characters can usually succeed on an acrobatics check if they are built for it at all.

And at high levels the auto-success is worse than Aska suggests, since skill rolls are not auto-fails (unless that has changed in Pathfinder).

Having played many tumblers in 3E, I personally feel that the tumble effect should work more like the mounted combat feat. Your tumble check should become your new AC for the attack of opportunity, unless your base AC is higher. Rather than negating the AoO at all.

I also feel that tumble is an awesome enough skill that it didn't need combining, but that's probably a separate issue.

It definitely needs some kind of scaling regardless.

[Phil. L]

I agree with the first poster. I like the BAB option for Tumble checks.

[Andrew Phillips]

After running an encounter with a Dragon today and once again watchng the PCs just tumble up and around the beast into flanking positions;

I think a DC of 10 plus base attack bonus should work well or maybe even 15 plus the base attack bonus given the likelyhood that the PC will be slightly more effective in the PAthfinderRPG.

[Miscreationist]

On a related note, I was trying to convert a character's skills using Table 5-3 (p. 20 of 1.1) and didn't see the Tumble skill listed as being rolled into Acrobatics. Sure enough it is and it makes sense that that is what the new skill should be, but it wasn't listed so it may be something that was just overlooked on that handy table.

[YULDM]

Your suggestion to add the BAB of opponent to DC remind me of another rule...

The COMBAT MANEUVER!

Maybe "TUMBLING" should follow the same mechanics... like Bull Rush, Trip and grapple...

On the battlefield, you can do those things:

- Attacking (melee or ranged or spells)
- Defending (means: having an AC!)
- Moving (simple deplacement)
- Maneuvering (getting a tactical advantage over an opponent)

Maneuvering includes:
- Bull rushing an opponent (changing opponent position to gain an advantage)
- Tripping/Disarming (giving a disadvantage to opponent)
- Grappling (controlling the opponent)
- Overrunning/Tumbling (get to an advantageous position)

... all using the new CMB rules

What do you think?

[Forever Man]

I've posted this before, in another thread, but I happen to like it, so I'm posting it here as well.

I don't think the old Jump skill should be included in the new Acrobatics skillset, just Balance & Tumble should.

I think the old skills of Climb, Jump & Swim should be incorporated into a new skillset called Athletics, this way Fighters can be good athletes and still have a knowledge skill, and still be good at listen or spot.

;^)

[Andrew Phillips]

YULDM wrote:

Your suggestion to add the BAB of opponent to DC remind me of another rule...

The COMBAT MANEUVER!

Maybe "TUMBLING" should follow the same mechanics... like Bull Rush, Trip and grapple...

On the battlefield, you can do those things:

- Attacking (melee or ranged or spells)
- Defending (means: having an AC!)
- Moving (simple deplacement)
- Maneuvering (getting a tactical advantage over an opponent)

Maneuvering includes:
- Bull rushing an opponent (changing opponent position to gain an advantage)
- Tripping/Disarming (giving a disadvantage to opponent)
- Grappling (controlling the opponent)
- Overrunning/Tumbling (get to an advantageous position)

... all using the new CMB rules

What do you think?

Great Idea, first I must say that I am one of those "don't change much" posters, but the Combat Maneuver system is one of the "big changes" that I do like simply because it gives us a single system to handle more complicated combat situations but does not invalidate old feats.

So adding Tumbling to the list of combat maneuvers is great and includes the BAB in the calculation which I think is important, as I posted above.

Mechanically it should work like Feint, as in the DC is equal to 10+CMB+Dex(maybe?).

Here's hoping someone notices this thread, the boards have gotten too crowded since the Alpha, and most folks aren't following the format requested by Jason B.