Combine further:
- Geography & History
- Dungeonering & Nature (aka anything that has to do with beasts and monsters)
- Religion & Planes (where do the gods live?)
- Local & Nobility
- Disable device & Theft
- Climb & Jump (now under Acrobatics) & Swim into Atheltics
- Escape artists & Acrobatics into Acrobatics
- Ride & Handle animal
Keep it simple
That's not a bad idea at all. I'd probably keep Athletics and Acrobatics separate, to maintain some sort of balance between skills, but in general broader skill groups (and maybe some way to allow specialization within them) seems like a progressive change.
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While the consolidation I've seen so far is pretty much more than I would have wanted, it's doable and retains a lot of the old skill system flavor. I really don't want skills consolidated further, and would like to weigh in with either keep the new systemn as is or add back in a few of the old skills.
I fear every class knowing every skill sooner than later. Skills, like feats, spells, class abilities and the like should not necessarily be something everyone can do equally. Consolidating skills further limits customization and would require less skills per class less soon everyone has ranks in all skills.
-DM Jeff
I would rather consolidate skills than use those dreaded skill synergies. Why not keep it simple? And above all do you genuinely differentiate your characters through your skill score (i.e.: look, I have a better swim score than you....ah!ah!) or rather through the feats?
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I look at a character overall. Skills, feats, and magic all have a equal footing in the game as an aoverall character's effectiveness. A wizards spells may be powerful but he can't hide or tumble as well as a rogue or perform great combat manuevers like a fighter. So his spells give him some of these abilities but his primary choice is to use larger damage spells and use those buffs on his friends. Skills should not be the main thing that makes a character a character, but should be something that is considered.
I agree with a couple of your suggestions - I agree on escape artist into acrobatics, and for climb/jump/swim into athletics. Dex into dex, strength into strength.
However, I would like to pull search -out- of perception, and keep trapfinding a separate skill than spot/listen. Otherwise, a number of classes can replace half the rogue's role in a dungeoncrawl - finding and avoiding traps. I don't think that a druid, monk, or barbarian being the party trap spotter on a dungeoncrawl is really in genre.
I think that adding new skills isn't compatible with simplifying the skill system. I'd lean toward simplification and away from adding new skills frequently - one every four or five levels, unless you spend a feat?
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I agree. Synergies were cool at first, but that's because I accepted the huge list of skills and built in redundancies. Since then, I've been working on my own on a consolidated skill list. I may be stroking my own ego here, but I think I did a darn good job with consolidations. Check out my .pdf collection: Lost in Translation.
I'm for skill streamlining in order to make skill choices be equal. As was said, Spot vs. Forgery for a rogue was sort of a no brainer. That being said, I still have a hard time justifying Knowledge (Geography) over Perception. Knowledge checks in general are nice, and important, but not equal. Knowledge (Arcana) always seems (in my experience) to come up more often than Knowledge (Nobility). I've never even had someone take Knowledge (Nobility) except for purely role playing reasons. I'm fine if that's the case, but that can be tied into Diplomacy, or another Knowledge check. Also, it seems silly to me that someone can identify poisonous berries with a Knowledge (Nature) check, but can't actually help someone with Survival look for them. I think that giving all Knowledge checks something that can be done practically, i.e. combining Knowledge (local) which at present only allows a really small area of expertise, as in one town or county, with Gather Information into Streetwise. I think that was a good change. Combining Knowledge (Nature) with Survival. Knowledge (Engineering) could be combined with Disable Device for just an Engineering or Mechanics skill. To keep rogues as the go-to trap expert, it could be made so that while a Wizard might be able to disable a clock, or carriage with an Engineering check, only a Rogue can disable a trap with a DC higher than 20.
In summation: I believe all skills should be made equal, and at present: Knowledge (Geography) doesn't compare with Perception.
I've been considering this, and I'd really like to see the skill consolidated thusly:
Appraise*
Acrobatics
-Balance
-Escape Artist
-Tumble
Athletics
-Climb
-(Fly?)
-Jump
-Swim
Craft
-All subskills
Deception
-Bluff
-Disguise (disguise is a sort of bluff - trying to pass yourself off as someone else)
-Sense Motive (for seeing through the deceptions)
Disable Device
-Disarm Trap (Old Disable Device uses)
-Open Locks (A lock is basically a device - If you can use disable device to sabotage a wagon wheel, why not use it open a lock?)
Handle Animal
-Animal Training (Old Handle Animal skill)
-Ride
Heal**
Knowledge
-All subskills
Linguistics
-Decipher Script
-Forgery
-Speak Language
Perception
-Spot/Search
-Listen
-Scent ability
-Touch
-Taste
Perform
-All subskills
Persuasion
-Diplomacy
-Gather Information
-Intimidate ("Intimidation is nothing more than getting your way using your muscles instead of your tongue")
Profession
-All subskills
Spellcraft
-Arcane
-Concentration
-Divine
-Use Magic Device
Stealth
-Hide
-Move Silently
-Sleight of Hand (palming something is an attempt to hide a small object. Pickpocketing is an attempt to "hide" a theft without being seen, heard or felt - thus evading Perception, it's natural enemy)
Survival
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I'd also like to put forth again the idea of grouping skills, but allowing specialization in a skill, which while granting Class skill level bonuses to the selected specialization, gives the character cross-class rankings in the related skill - except no cross-class rankings in "Trained Only" skills (so for example, you couldn't take a Knowledge skill (say Nobility) and gain cross-class ranks in all the other Knowledge skills.
* If I could find a good home for this, it'd go the way of Use Rope
** I'd halfway like to put this either under Profession or Survival
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And above all do you genuinely differentiate your characters through your skill score (i.e.: look, I have a better swim score than you....ah!ah!) or rather through the feats?
Both, skills, or feats.
It really depends on the character concept and what is the focus of the character. I've seen more skill defined characters than feat defined characters. So many people that have a certain type of character take the same feats. (Like a DMM Cleric, Weapon focused fighter, or a Two Weapon fighter.) The skills are what define those characters not the feats.
I think people are going a bit skill consolidation happy. It's beginning to look like the old DM Options books from 2nd edition where we just split each Ability into one or three parts:
Strength: Athletics
Dexterity: Acrobatics, Stealth, Thievery
Constitution: --
Intelligence: Arcana, Craft, Knowledge
Wisdom: Perception, Profession, Survival
Charisma: Animals, Deception, Performance
plus Linguistics
At this point, we should just dump the skill system altogether and institute some sort of "Skill Bonus" to Ability checks to perform certain subclasses of actions.
I respectfully disagree. Consolidating skills (a) waters down the flavour of skill choices and (2) is just power-gaming in disguise. If you combine four skills into one, then you're effectively given everyone four times as many skills, unless you also reduce the number of skill points. That's the one part of the Alpha system that makes sense. They killed the "x4 at first level" thing because having that many skills at every level is just silly if skill purchase is a one-time thing. But to really do that change justice, you'd have to then also at least halve the number of points per level. You don't get to have that one both ways.
Down with power creep!
agreed, no more watering down...
I created a Greater Levels of Skill post earlier.
My system allows characters to gain skill focus without a feat.
Since you're getting more skill points, you don't need to consolidate as much.
I don't understand this opinion that having wanting consolidated skills is powergaming. If you break them up moreso, then you end up with alot of wholly unskilled slobs because they just can't do anything with their small number of trained skills. Or do you consider it powergaming because people would like to avoid having their character's tombstone read "He really liked baking"?
Now, one option is to actually divorce combat skills from noncombat skills, so you shouldn't have to sacrifice power for flavour.
I like what ive seen so far, I think combining certain skills make the game simple and to the point, also allows players certain classes to ahve some skills that count (example the fighter can finally overcome his ACP). I am sure some balancing will have to happen in play testing.