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A few ideas about where to go from here:
Barbarian
I've mentioned this elsewhere, but give them d10 HD and some form of bonus hp/level system.
Bard
Simplify bardsong or make some of its features more powerful. I would say the biggest sticking point is the whole "singing in combat" deal.
Bardsong You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to your bard level and when not engaged in other activity, doing so requires 10 minutes. When engaging in combat, the bard can choose to activate the effects of bardsong on any allies that were present at the preperation. Etc, etc...
Druid
Have the druid choose animal companion or wild shape. Make both better and wild shape available earlier. Far less book-keeping and more personalized.
Monk
Big fan of the monk fighting styles from Unearthed Arcana.
Paladin
A holy warrior should have good will saves! Give Paladin's good will saves! Never liked the flavour of mounts, would not miss them.
Sorcerer
A sorcerer is already hindered by spells known, no specialization, and metamagic casting time: give them a wizards spell progression. Getting 2nd level spells at level 4 is unfair...according to the rules, my 3rd level sorcerer has 5 magic missiles per day and I may realistically expect to fight a CR 5 creature?
Keep up the great work!
I think 3.5 the sorcerer has skill problems, class bonus problems, and flavor problems.
Skill problems - In 3.5, sorcerers only had one Charisma skill (Bluff) as a class skill, even though Charisma was their key stat! Also, sorcerers only get Knowledge (arcana) as a class skill, even though many of the prestige classes require a knowledge skill.
I house ruled that sorcerers could pick one charisma skill and one knowledge skill in addition to Knowledge (Arcana), and have those be class skills. I did this because the default skillset limits when sorcerers can prestige class, which is important because of...
class bonus problems - Sorcerers don't lose any class features by taking a prestige class, not even the one bonus feat per five levels that wizards get. I wouldn't mind sorcerers being destined for prestige classes to emphasize their individualism, but their skillset limits that.
flavor problems - Sorcerers didn't feel different enough from wizards to me. I gave 1st level sorcerers a bonus feat similar to Eschew Materials - not only do sorcerers not need components normally, they spend XP instead of GP at a 5 GP: 1 XP ratio.
I think 3.5 the sorcerer has skill problems, class bonus problems, and flavor problems.
And yet, they rocked! Pretty funny what you said, but unfortunatelly it is true, I thinks Wizards (company) when designing the sorcerer overestimated the power of spontaneus casting; it IS very strong indeed, but not a reason to handicap the sorc that much.
"Spell progression? He already has spontaneus casting, make him progress slower. Skill Points? He´s got spontaneus casting, giv'im less skill points and less skills. Bonus Feats?? He´s got spontaneus casting, no bonus feat for'im."Giving sorcs 4 skill points, a simple starting bonus feat such as Eschew Materials and some bonus feats or some simple special abilites along the way wouldn´t hurt... really.
And yet, they rocked!
This is true - I played a 3.0 sorcerer and had a great time, and one of my current players has had two sorcerer characters.
I think that sorcs can be an ideal gateway into D&D 3.x magic for new players, because there's no 'what do I memorize today' work and the 'what do I cast this round' list doesn't change until you level.
I think that the same mechanic could be used to create a simpler cleric, too, but I'm not sure the favored soul is the right answer.
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I say give them eschew materials and a bonus bloodline or heritage feat at first level. Lose the familiar in lieu of using metamagic feats spontaneously. Give them bonus feats every five levels like the wizard. Have these be metamagic and heritage/bloodline types of feats. Also give them more skills. Have familiar acquisition come from a feat that wizards and sorcerers can choose.
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I'm worried that the monk's continued d8 hit die suggests that they are not getting a full BAB progression, and that this will simply contribute further to the "flurry of misses" problem that they have...
The monk is, arguably, the 3.5 clas most in need of upgrading and "fixing." I am extremely curious as to what is planned for it.
A few ideas about where to go from here:
Barbarian
I've mentioned this elsewhere, but give them d10 HD and some form of bonus hp/level system.
Sorry, but what the diff? So what if they get a D12? If you give them bonuses via class, then they will probably just end up tougher any way. Seriously D12 isn't really a problem.
The monk is, arguably, the 3.5 clas most in need of upgrading and "fixing." I am extremely curious as to what is planned for it.
Talk for yourself, the players I've heard, the Monk is, on the contrary, a very powerful class; and for myself, I have seen it in game and indeed it is. The so called "mage-killers" have earned their title well.
With all the dependency of magical gear in 3.5, the monk is one of the classes that could go by very well without them (in comparison with other classes).They have all good saves progression, and with a good Dex and Wis and a decent Con; he is likely to resist all spells cast at them; when fighting a monk one should already consider the "saved" effects of the spell.
He needs no magical weapon to hit magical creatures, for his attack are already considered magical at certain levels; they don´t depend on armor for a high AC; they move fast, which gives them a lot of advantage on battle...The list goes on, you know the class.
Try to review it more carefully and/or playtest it more; for unless I've missed something huge during all these years, I cannot understand how you could say he needs upgrading.
I think I would like to see the Warlock and the Sorcerer combined, or something to that effect. Faeruns Silver Fire maybe, something that would give the Sorcerer a magical edge over the Wizard, for sheer power, will keeping the Wizard more flexible.
Monks do need a bit of improvement on their ability to hit, maybe something along the lines of a Fighters weapon focus and greater weapon focus, there are feats already to improve their damage if you know where to look (Monster Manual pg304- Improved Natural Attack, monks unarmed strike is considered a natural and a manufactured weapon by the rules), so that's fine.
A bonus on grapples would be nice as that's heavily in their flavor, maybe Improved Grapple as a bonus feat?
Rogues got all sorts of spell-like abilities added to their repretoire.
I personally hated it, why does it HAVE to be the Arcane Trickster style, what if I don´t want my Rogue to be a spellcaster, I´d have to multiclass then?? Weird hu... If someone wants the Arcane Trickster, let them take their Wiz or Sorc level, get a prestige class whatever. I like the idea of the Rogue being able to do it on his own without spells, that´s what´s cool... soon everyone is going to be casting spells... We already have Knights (paladins) and Wild Hunters (Rangers) casting spells... even the singers cast spells... Let´s just wait for the Fighter and the Barbarian now.. then it´s complete. What´s that? Harry Potter?
I loved the idea of Pathfinder RPG, it got me all anxious for finally fixing D&D, I had (still have... ok) hopes it was getting close to what I dreamed of; it wouldnt be perfect, of course, it has to suit other peoples needs, not only my own (that´s why there are house rules, right); but was getting close enough... now they come with everyone casting spells... Soon the beggar will teleport to you to beg for money..
Talk about boring. The Fighter has no more options than he had before, just the usual 'beat it 'til it dies' attitude.
hahahahahahaha...rsrs.. lol.... I gotta read this again after a couple bears.. it´s gonna be even funnier...
Try to review it more carefully and/or playtest it more; for unless I've missed something huge during all these years, I cannot understand how you could say he needs upgrading.
I have seen high level monks tear up opponents. By mid to high level, their flurry BAB is equal to their base BAB. Combine this with Weapon Finesse and a high Dexterity you have someone who is hard to hit and can hit fairly regularly.
The weakness of a monk is the lack of ability to bypass and DR other than magic, admantine, and lawful. Against most devils, a monk will hit DR everytime. The d8 hitpoints can also be a problem for a melee class.
The monk is, arguably, the 3.5 clas most in need of upgrading and "fixing." I am extremely curious as to what is planned for it.Talk for yourself, the players I've heard, the Monk is, on the contrary, a very powerful class; and for myself, I have seen it in game and indeed it is. The so called "mage-killers" have earned their title well.
With all the dependency of magical gear in 3.5, the monk is one of the classes that could go by very well without them (in comparison with other classes).
They have all good saves progression, and with a good Dex and Wis and a decent Con; he is likely to resist all spells cast at them; when fighting a monk one should already consider the "saved" effects of the spell.
He needs no magical weapon to hit magical creatures, for his attack are already considered magical at certain levels; they don´t depend on armor for a high AC; they move fast, which gives them a lot of advantage on battle...The list goes on, you know the class.
Try to review it more carefully and/or playtest it more; for unless I've missed something huge during all these years, I cannot understand how you could say he needs upgrading.
I am with him
I saw a 25th level monk kill every thing it could find in a fight with1 25th fighter,1 25th level cleric,1 25th level sorcerer they didnt kill anything as much as he did.
now the only non-PHB feat he had was ring the bell he single handly killed 2 25 HD red dragons in 5 rounds.they couldn't touch him he was walking death....never again will I accept monks are weak.
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Take a 12th level human monk and a 12th level human fighter. Build them both according to the guidelines for the "Destroyer" package in the PHB2 including the standard gear listed for their level. (It is NPC-level gear, but since it applies equally to both of them, it doesn't change the results.)
Here's the fighter's attack line:
Melee +2 greatsword +23/+18/+13 (2d6+15, 17-20/x2)
Here's the monk's:
Melee +1 unarmed strike +15/+15/+15/+10 (3d6+5, 20/x2)
Starting to see the problem?
Now put them each in front of a glabrezu, and relatively typical enemy at their level (CR 13). The glabrezu has AC 27, DR 10/good, and a grapple mod of +30 (as opposed to the monk's and fighter's grapple mods of +17 each), just in case you were getting any ideas. Excluding criticals, which clearly the fighter will be getting many, many more of, the fighter averages ~21 hp of damage per full attack against the glabrezu. The monk... does ~7.5 hp of damage per full attack.
The monk is only 1/3 as effective as the fighter - and we all know that the fighter is not exactly the most powerful class in 3.5. I fully admit, the monk has some things going for it in that they are damned hard to kill - but when you get down to it, they can't actually do anything. Even their so-called "mage killer" capabilities are functional only as long as the mage in question can't cast either freedom of movement or something like divine power. And otherwise, they're... useless.
I'm hoping Pathfinder changes this.
The weakness of a monk is the lack of ability to bypass and DR other than magic, admantine, and lawful. Against most devils, a monk will hit DR everytime. The d8 hitpoints can also be a problem for a melee class.
Oh god, so he has a weakness! Yeah, it is unfair indeed, how monstrous of them to design the monk with such a flaw! So let´s give them d10 HD and the ability to bypass everything.. that should solve it.
No, really, EVERY class has its weaknesses, and I dare say, the monk is the one with the least.
One to thing is to like the class and want to play a nice monk character; other thing is to want it without a bit of flaws so that it shines like a god amongst all other.
I've committed such a mistake before in Wizards of the Coast Forums about 4th ed back when we didnt have all this information. They had already said they would hold back the wizard firepower, make him more versatile, use spells more often but put him about side by side on the damaging scale with other classes. I argued this was wrong, that the wizard should be more powerful with his spells, that they studied for so long, fought so hard to get there, had to live through all those meek first levels, etc... But I've missed the point of "fairness", they were designing the classes to be balanced, so that no one would shine more than the others. And, THAT, was the important thing, it would help everybody have more fun.
So, I say it again; in a "mechanical" point of view, reading the rules and playtesting it, seeing it in play; has showed me the monk is already buffed up enough. It has many strong points that far make it up for its weakness (which every class should have).
Please, all I say here (or type.. ) is within my point of view, from my experiences with the game, I am not stating I am right... I am sure others had different experiences that could lead them think the monk is somehow "weak".. and.. I would like to see how they came to it.
I saw a 25th level monk kill every thing it could find in a fight with
1 25th fighter,1 25th level cleric,1 25th level sorcerer they didnt kill anything as much as he did.
now the only non-PHB feat he had was ring the bell he single handly killed 2 25 HD red dragons in 5 rounds.they couldn't touch him he was walking death....never again will I accept monks are weak.
lol.... hahahaa.. I love when I find funny stuff to read.. where do you find to write these "I saw a 25th level monk kill every thing it could find in a fight with"... lol...
Oh, yeah, thanks for the support. I had a similar experience once, I wasnt running the game nor playing it, just watching it as I read other stuff... well, the 20th level monk didnt just kill 90% of the npcs in that adventure, it basically did the whole thing by himself, literally. Because of a "Prismatic Wall trap" somewhere in the middle of the adventure, the group got separated in two: Monk on one side, everyone else on the other. He decided to go on ahead, scouting and fighting what he could while the rest teleported back to town to get all the spells needed to remove the Wall.. by the time the group joined up with him, he was at the "final scene" already (and thus leaving a trail of dead beasts) and had killed almost all of the Big-Bad-Final-BosseS (yeah, Demon lords, elder beholders, Ancient Lichs, some Spiritual Dragons ya know, your everyday school bully).
I'm hoping Pathfinder changes this.
Me too... (no offense man, really, please)
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Sorry, but what the diff? So what if they get a D12? If you give them bonuses via class, then they will probably just end up tougher any way. Seriously D12 isn't really a problem.A few ideas about where to go from here:
Barbarian
I've mentioned this elsewhere, but give them d10 HD and some form of bonus hp/level system.
My observation is not really about the d12 per se, but the fact that in Pathfinder every class has its HD tied to BAB except the barbarian. I think it would streamline things, and I would rather gave extra hp than damage reduction anyway.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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My observation is not really about the d12 per se, but the fact that in Pathfinder every class has its HD tied to BAB except the barbarian. I think it would streamline things, and I would rather gave extra hp than damage reduction anyway.Sorry, but what the diff? So what if they get a D12? If you give them bonuses via class, then they will probably just end up tougher any way. Seriously D12 isn't really a problem.A few ideas about where to go from here:
Barbarian
I've mentioned this elsewhere, but give them d10 HD and some form of bonus hp/level system.
Something like this:
Barbarian Toughness (EX) Even when a Barbarian is not raging, the seething fury boils beneath, making him move an instant faster, a little bit tougher than normal. For every level of Barbarian, the character receives 2 bonus hitpoints.
A few ideas about where to go from here:
Barbarian
I've mentioned this elsewhere, but give them d10 HD and some form of bonus hp/level system.
Since you are standardizing HD based on BAB progression, Barbarians should be d10. In recompense how about DR 1/- at 1st level and every three levels.
Bard
Simplify bardsong or make some of its features more powerful. I would say the biggest sticking point is the whole "singing in combat" deal.
I really think that the ability should be renamed Bardic Performance and that Perform(Oratory), Perform(Poetry), Perform(Sing), Perform(Chanting)be viable options to activate Bardic Performance. Secondly, I can see Perform(Dance) and Perform(pick an Instrument Group) as viable also as long as it is combined with some spoken action. Performance(mime) definetly out :-)
Bardsong You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to your bard level and when not engaged in other activity, doing so requires 10 minutes. When engaging in combat, the bard can choose to activate the effects of bardsong on any allies that were present at the preperation. Etc, etc...
No opinion on this one.
Druid
Have the druid choose animal companion or wild shape. Make both better and wild shape available earlier. Far less book-keeping and more personalized.
Shapechanging is one of the CoDzilla concerns, so making it more powerful might not be balanced.
Monk
Big fan of the monk fighting styles from Unearthed Arcana.
I like the idea of fighting styles but the monk still is an odd fit when you consider the rest of 3.5 is basically Occidental Pre-Industrial.
Paladin
A holy warrior should have good will saves! Give Paladin's good will saves! Never liked the flavour of mounts, would not miss them.
Agree on saves but the Paldin has always been in my mind associated with Galahad or a Carloginian so the mount should stay. However, how about adding in free feats/abilities that are appropiate to Mr Knight in Shining Armor ontop of that Special Mount.
Sorcerer
A sorcerer is already hindered by spells known, no specialization, and metamagic casting time: give them a wizards spell progression. Getting 2nd level spells at level 4 is unfair...according to the rules, my 3rd level sorcerer has 5 magic missiles per day and I may realistically expect to fight a CR 5 creature?
How about the fact that even a specialist wizard (paizo version) at 5th level can at most cast 9 spells (assuming high ability scores and excludin cantrips) and sorcerors (3.5)casts 12. And the sorceror may have less spells known but doesnt have to prepick his spells. I haven't played a wizard since 3.0 came out because the versatility of the sorceror seems so much more powerful to me.
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Improved trip.
The monk has a total +9 to his trip check. The glabrezu, which is Huge, has a +18. Good luck with that.
Stunning fist.
The save DC against the monk's stunning fist (which, actually, he doesn't have based on the build I said above, but we'll let that go for this) is 18. The glabrezu's Fortitude save is +18.
I also wouldn't start being too proud of stunning effects in this fight particularly, because the glabrezu has a 1/day power word: stun SLA, against which the monk has basically no defense.
Axiomatic strike.
Which he also doesn't have, because he a) doesn't have the prerequisite feat and b) it's not in the build I stipulated earlier. Even if he did, however, the additional damage amounts to a total of 10.85 damage per round in addition to the roughly 7.5 damage he was doing already - still less than the fighter is doing, and the monk is burning through stunning fist uses like there's no tomorrow.
Improved grapple.
As previously established, the glabrezu has a grapple check of +30, while the monk has a +17. Also, the fighter has the same grapple check that the monk does, without having had to burn a feat on it.
The Monk can easily reduce the difficulties with striking a foe, and is almost always built in a way to maximize this potential. With four attacks per round, improved trip made them the gods of combat. Throw in some grappling and there wasn't a foe that could stand against them (literally).
Our friend the CR 13 monster against whom the Monk has to roll an ungodly 12 to hit normally on the first two attacks will quickly be prone and probably stunned. More than likely, he'll never get back up again. If there's a problem with that, bear this in mind - gauntlets and brass knuckles are weapons, and can be enchanted as such, and still apply to the Monk's unarmed attack abilities.
Your view of the monk's chances is exceptionally optimistic.
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<snip>I suspect that if you were to count up the gold cost for the magic items you gave to each character, you'd find that the fighter is relatively underequiped.
He shouldn't be - both have the equipment listed for characters of their class and level as described in the Appendix of the PHB2. I don't have my books with me currently, or I could list their gear for you, but the purpose behind using those builds is so anyone who wants to can check me. I also can't be accused of building the characters in order to prove something specific, and there aren't Schroedinger's Character issues where the monk or fighter somehow magically has everything they need to overcome any given obstacle.
Incidentally, I picked the glabrezu as an opponent by simply looking at CR 13 monsters and choosing a non-dragon one that looked like the kind of thing that could show up at just about any game. I didn't review its stats or compare the sample characters to it before deciding to use it. Quite frankly, I didn't need to.
Monk items, iirc, tend to be a bit overpriced. So, I realize the need for the premise you set and I question whether it is fair.
Oh, it absolutely isn't fair, and you are absolutely right about them being overpriced. Why amulets of mighty fists cost three times their weapon counterparts for the same enhancement bonus is beyond me - not to mention that they occupy the same body slot as a periapt of wisdom, just like a monk's belt takes the same slot as a belt of giant's strength. Fixing their equipment costs and compatibilities would be one very useful way of improving the monk's situation.
For the Paladin this is pretty much the Defacto fix most people have gone with. I suggest Paizo takes a look at
this and goes from there.
Druid
Have the druid choose animal companion or wild shape. Make both better and wild shape available earlier. Far less book-keeping and more personalized.
Druids really don't need any more power. If anything I hope they get powered down a bit, they should probably get intermediate fort saves, not good. I will also say I like the PHII variant, but it can be abused with PrCs like war shaper.
My observation is not really about the d12 per se, but the fact that in Pathfinder every class has its HD tied to BAB except the barbarian. I think it would streamline things, and I would rather gave extra hp than damage reduction anyway.Sorry, but what the diff? So what if they get a D12? If you give them bonuses via class, then they will probably just end up tougher any way. Seriously D12 isn't really a problem.A few ideas about where to go from here:
Barbarian
I've mentioned this elsewhere, but give them d10 HD and some form of bonus hp/level system.
Well I disagree, its not really going to speed anything up really. I personally think Druids and Clerics should keep the hit die, but drop to the worst base attack bonus. There is 0 reason other than trying to take the fighter types job for them to have anything except the worst base attack bonus.
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...based on the build I said above...That's what I'm saying. The build is bad, not the class. It's great on fighters, bad on monks. Indeed, the monk class is overpowered. Anybody can say "if you put the wrong feats on a class and give them the wrong equipment and the wrong skills, they suck". Compare them optimized, and the monk is death in any direction.
Even when I give you the feats you mentioned, it still didn't keep up with the fighter. And the equipment list is:
fighter - +2 greatsword, +3 full plate armor, gauntlets of ogre power, cloak of resistance +1, brooch of shielding (and a couple potions that I'm leaving out of this).
monk - amulet of mighty fists +1, bracers of armor +3, gauntlets of ogre power, cloak of resistance +2 (and some one-use items that are also irrelevant).
What's so "wrong" about that? And don't say "the monk should have more," because the fighter has roughly 25.5K gp worth of equipment, and the monk has 23K - unless that 2500 gp is going to make the difference, anything you give beyond that to the monk you have to give to the fighter as well.
Monks ain't overpowered. Anyway, one of the big problems with the monk class is that they have no anything. What do they get at higher levels? SLAs because WotC don't have an ounce of creativity. Skirmish + full BAB + some bonus feats would do monks a world of good, methinks. My personal fix also has them able to enchant their unarmed strikes like the soulknife, but that's just me.
Sweet!
Mike McArtor pestering he Bulmahn on behalf of Rangers and Monks everywhere.
Remind me to send McArtor a bacon green chile cheeseburger and beer .
My name is Shisumo, and I approve this message.
Didn't you learn anything from this years primaries... if you approve the message, it's hard to be believable when you say you don't recall that :-)
Also, new ranger styles are a must in my book. :)
Oh yes - good plan. If you're interested, here are the basics for the ranger tracks I added for my game:
1) Foe Hunter - Bonus favored enemy feats2) Spearfighter - Fun feats with your basic pointy stick
3) Mounted warrior - Riding wars, war pigs, etc.
4) Primal ranger ("Hey, I have claws and teeth!")
On the topic of the Monk class:
The monk IMHO is not overpowered. It just has too many invulnerabilities that doesn't relate well with the class' core ideas. I say let the monk fast-progress his BAB but ditch some of the uber-invulnerabilities, especially the less useful ones, or the less thematically related ones. In other words, pump his attack power but deflate a bit his invulnerabilities.
Regards,
ZOOROOS
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Druids really don't need any more power. If anything I hope they get powered down a bit, they should probably get intermediate fort saves, not good. I will also say I like the PHII variant, but it can be abused with PrCs like war shaper.Druid
Have the druid choose animal companion or wild shape. Make both better and wild shape available earlier. Far less book-keeping and more personalized.
I agree they don't need more power. I do think that players should have the option to choose either an animal companion that improves more as the druid levels in place of wildshape.
Also, I agree that wildshape is overpowered using the standard 3.X shapechange rules. But I do think that if they give up their animal companion, druids should wildshape earlier and more often.
A few ideas about where to go from here:
Bard
Simplify bardsong or make some of its features more powerful. I would say the biggest sticking point is the whole "singing in combat" deal.I really think that the ability should be renamed Bardic Performance and that Perform(Oratory), Perform(Poetry), Perform(Sing), Perform(Chanting)be viable options to activate Bardic Performance. Secondly, I can see Perform(Dance) and Perform(pick an Instrument Group) as viable also as long as it is combined with some spoken action. Performance(mime) definetly out :-)
Good call! I´m not a fan of the bard so I never give it too much thought, but this is a very good and yet simple idea. I actually now wonder why the bard´s performance skills were never taken into consideration when using his bardic abilities... it should be one of the main things. I guess WotC always took Skills as a secondary part of the character; at least for combat issues.
Oh god, so he has a weakness! Yeah, it is unfair indeed, how monstrous of them to design the monk with such a flaw! So let´s give them d10 HD and the ability to bypass everything.. that should solve it.
The weakness of a monk is the lack of ability to bypass and DR other than magic, admantine, and lawful. Against most devils, a monk will hit DR everytime. The d8 hitpoints can also be a problem for a melee class.
Did I say it was unfair? Did I say that it was a flaw? Or did you assume I did. I believe I stated how how tough the monk was before commenting on their only weaknesses (as in trying to point that they are not that weak).