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After posting some initial thoughts on another thread, I thought that this might be sufficiently different to justify a thread of its very own.
I'm a big fan of the fighter class. I play a lot of fighters, so I'm very conversant with the classes deficiencies. I have a very difficult time taking fighter 5th because the level simply sucks. No feats, no ability score adjustments, no saving throw adjustments - only a measly +1 to BAB. The fighter in principle, though, is cool. It is a class that really takes advantages feats - and feats are arguably the greatest single feature of 3rd edition.
So, what is wrong with the 3.5 fighter? How does the Pathfinder Alpha fix these problems? How to make the figter truly worthwhile? I will attempt to answer these questions below, offering my opinion on the matter. And of course, I'm open to refutation, dialogue, and comments.
Problems with the 3.5 Fighter
1) Lack of flexibility relative to other classes in some aspects
2) Lack of signature abilties
3) Easily overcome by magic even from very low-level casters
4) Little ability to impact the game outside of combat
5) 'Combat Strait-jacket' - most useful ability is to perform full attacks as frequently as possible.
Further explanation follows:
1) The fighter is designed to be good at combat - but only in one way. A fighter has heavy armor proficiency and is designed to be most effective when taking advantage of it. A high-dex fighter doesn't work well when built as a single class fighter. Choosing the path of a fighter/rogue or swashbuckler is more effective, in large part because the fighter has few skills that offset the disadvantages of less effective armor. A rogue wears light armor, but makes up for the fact by having skills like Tumble that allow the rogue to avoid attacks of opportunity when getting into position or being forced to retreat. Without tumble or other method of protection or retreat, a fighter that enters into melee is almost always committing to a slug-fest - pitting his impressive AC and the damage from a full attack against the monster. Without the impressive AC that the fighter is designed to support, he quickly finds himself overwhelmed by creatures that are low CR but high strength and constitution - particularly creatures that have limited mobility and are easily dealt with by ranged attacks. While a fighter can be built with a variety of manners (ranged, disarming, tripping, etc) - no combination seems as effective as the heavy armor/full attack every round fighter build - at least overall. Compare this to the choices that other classes have. A cleric can serve as an effective front-line fighter with spells such as Divine Power and Bull's Strength, or as a healer, or as a conjurer bringing in allies to assist the party. The wizard can focus on battlefield control with wall spells, or direct damage with evocations, or a summoner, or a generalist with a pocket full of tricks in every department. So, while clerics and wizards (and even the rogue) are faced with a variety of choices in combat - the fighter usually comes to the optimal choice - full attack. This is not to say that the fighter doesn't have choices, but most of the time the choice is suboptimal regarding survival for the party.
2) Signature Abilities - The 3.5 fighter has access to Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization. I always take these feats if I am of the proper level (but part of that is not having any better choices at that point). None of these abilities seem particularly special. Worse, (and I'm not alone in this), many houserule giving other classes access to these abilities since they're only feats, and don't seem particularly 'tied' to the fighter class. If weapon focus represents training with the weapon in the first place, why can't a rogue or cleric or wizard continue to train with that weapon and achieve the level of success that the fighter can? At the same time the fighter is working on specialization he is also working on blind-fighting, or improved trip, or great cleaving - how is that different from the cleric praying more fervently for spells? While feats are nice, they don't seem unique to the class. Compare to the rogue, who gets evasion at 2nd level, trapfinding, uncanny dodge, and the sneak attack progression (usually considered equivalent to feats - UA offers a rogue variant that trades sneak for feats on a one-for-one basis). And the abilities for a high level rogue are awesome. My point here is that feats, while cool, don't feel special since every class gets feats, but not every class gets an animal companion, or spell-casting, or evasion. The small number of fighter only feats aren't equivalent to any of the other classes special abilities, so we're simply weighing the number of feats gained versus the number of feats and special abilities that other classes have.
3) The fighter has an achilles heel - low saves. A fighter usually doesn't have the ability scores to have a high wisdom. Choosing between a 13 Int (combat expertise) and Wisdom (+1 Will Saves) is a tough choice. Let's agree that it is a rare fighter that has an ability modifier of better than +1 in the Will or Reflex save department. Let's assume 5th level characters for a moment. The fighter has a +1 or +2 Reflex and Will Save. The DC against a 3rd level spell is probably 17 (10+spell level +4 for ability modifier). A simple Hold Person spell has a 75% chance to disable our fighter - rendering him helpless. The fighter will frequently sit out battles if targeted by effects that reduce mobility or enchant the target. Confusion, dominate monster, etc, are extremely scary to a fighter (and the rest of the party). The smart wizard dominates his fighter at the beginning of the day to allow oppposed checks when trying to force him to act against the party. This is not fun for the player.
4) Outside of combat the Fighter is useless or worse. He can't be stealthy (at least not in armor), he can't gather information or make diplomacy checks (at least not well). He has no knowledge skills, and even with maximum ranks in swim he's afraid of drowning. The armor check penalty for heavy armor is usually enough to overcome his ability modifier - and if the DCs are in line with challenges for the party, the fighter usually has to suffer. Of course, he can take off the armor and he'll really shine when climbing the cliff - until he is attacked. I think it is pretty obvious that if you're not killing something and the DM isn't allowing good role-playing to replace skill checks, the fighter is fairly useless. The most un-even match is having a fighter type try to guard something - anything. Without spot and listen as class skills, a 3rd level rogue will usually be able to sneak past a 10th level fighter without difficulty.
5) Full Attacks or useless - This isn't 100% true, but usually the damage you deal on a full attack is the most useful function you can perform. Disarm attempts, etc, can be useful, but at the risk of losing your weapon? The only thing more useless than a fighter outside of combat is a fighter in combat unarmed. Even with spiked guantlets none of the feats or abilities they've chosen are likely to be of use.
Pathfinder Alpha does fix some of these problems. At least to a degree. It gives the fighter class abilities that are distinct from feats. The use of combat manuevers makes some actions that weren't as good better choices. The weapon training can certainly increase the damage potential. However, I don't think it goes far enough.
What should the fighter be?
The fighter should have some choices. Do all fighters need heavy armor? If they don't use heavy armor could they have some other special ability? What kind of special abilities could they have without giving them magic or abilities that shouldn't be available to other party members.
The first thing that should be addressed is skills. Most skills aren't particularly related to combat. Why do fighters know how to climb, but not know how to dance? If it is simply being strong, that is represented by the ability adjustment. Somehow all fighters were shoe-horned into a narrow mold on skill selections. That should be revised. Rogues have TONS of skills and TONS of skill points. They can do a bunch of things well. I don't think Fighters should be as good at as many things as a Rogue is. But I do think that the fighter should have more choices. If you increase the number of class skills but do nothing with the number of 'skill points', you create variety in the fighter rather than a strait-jacket. Now, 2 skills per level is probably too few. I think the fighter should have at least 4. (Heck, most classes should have at least 4. Wizards especially, even with the high intelligence, they want to put a lot into esoteric knowledge, and they should). I'd actually like to suggest 6 skill points for the fighter, and +2 skill points (or the equivalent) for every other class. And allowing a few more class skills won't hurt. Nothing to step on anyone's toes - but Acrobatics for sure, Diplomacy, Perception, even Stealth. Not every fighter will choose these skills, but there will be less 'cookie-cutter skill choices'.
Without addressing the achilles heel, we can't go much further. Fighters are too weak to magical opponents. They can't see invisibility, they can't resist saves. They need to have a signature ability that deals with this. I'd suggest giving them two bonuses - the first is a bonus to one saving throw of their choice. This would work like the Swashbuckler's Reflex bonus (they end up with a +9 at 20th level, instead of a +6 or +12). Why isn't there a 'medium' save? This would make the fighter a little better at avoiding becoming disabled, and the fighter wouldn't always be the choice for any spell that doesn't require a fortitude save.
I think that SR of some kind while wielding a weapon would be a cool signature ability and deal with this problem quite well.
The abilities that Paizo has suggested - weapon mastery and armor mastery - do well to increase the damage that the fighter can deal. Why not just give them a bonus to damage with every weapon - they are fighters after-all. After looking through feats, why not allow a fighter to treat any weapon they are proficient with as though it were one die higher (so a d6 shortsword does a d8 for them). That would be a signature (non-feat) ability to make some other classes jealous. To avoid cherry-picking, you could instead make it a blanket +1/3 levels, without tying it to a specific weapon. They would be good with EVERY weapon, not just one.
This would also address the problem of a favored weapon. A fighter doesn't want to use any other weapon they find once they've chosen their weapon focus feat. If the bonus to damage applied to any weapon, but they had other 'signature abilities' with their chosen weapon, I think it would work out well.
I've certainly gone on too long, and I certainly have more, but let me step aside, let others step in, and then I'll come back after work tomorrow.
DDMW that was awesome, thank you for taking time to write up all the ideas that I just don't have time to put down.
I've always wanted to love fighters, but it's finally just no fun for me around a table. In pbps it's not so bad because there is a good deal more in character interaction that does not depend on social skills, but even then it sometimes depresses me to see what my character can't do, and how few effective options he has.
So Paizo please look into a way for rounding out fighters out a little.
Director of Games
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Thanks DeadDM,
You bring up some good points. I too feel that the fighter could use a bit more "umph". Some of these issues reside in other chapters (some feat pick ups), but some reside in the class.
As noted elsewhere, I do have one goal that I am trying to stick with the fighter. A bit of simplicity. The fighter needs to be an easy class to play, so as to be a good fit for casual and new players. That said, I want to make sure it has the versatility to keep pros interested and excited.
More work to be done...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
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I'm very happy that you're trying this, and I certainly hope that with all the feedback your very active community will provide, you'll get it as close to perfect as humanly possible.
I do think a simple class is important, particularly for new players, but a simple class can still be exciting. I think the rogue class is a perfect example - none of the abilities are hard to figure out, determining when they apply if fairly easy, and little math is used.
I will certainly be providing more feedback on the combat feats. Those are much more complicated than the current feat structure. In my group I have two players who I am certain will be unable to manage actions that require a multi-round progression of actions.
I think it is interesting that about half of what you've done with the initial release is exactly the way I've done things - and the other half is very different than I have or would have. I'll certainly try to keep my thoughts in the proper places - and in a few weeks we'll start actually playtesting the Alpha Rules and providing 'official feedback' from the game sessions.
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The first D&D character I ever played was a fighter named Gideon (who retired at the ripe old level of 28). That was back in ‘86 or ‘87 using the Frank Mentzer version of the Basis D&D boxed set. The reason I bring this up is because I have a big soft spot for fighters, and I really want to see this class be able to hold its own and not be the fifth wheel that its commonly seen as. So, here are some of my thoughts....
One of the fighter’s problems is that it’s not very flexible in representing different, common warrior archetypes (especial the “swashbuckler” and “aristocratic warrior”), and that’s an issue that desperately needs to get addressed.
Step one in addressing this is by expanding the fighter’s class skills. Swashbucklers really need Acrobatics, Deception, and Diplomacy, while Aristocratic Warriors (knights, samurai, et al.) need Diplomacy and Knowledge (nobility). Upping their skill choices at first level to 4 + Int modifier wouldn’t hurt, either.
Step two is class abilities. Aristocratic warriors don’t really need anything here. However, swashbucklers could use some love. The Armor Training ability is nice, but there also needs to be an option for unarmored fighters.
Now, the issue of balance and power level, I feel, can be corrected with combat (and fighter-only) feats. The core 3.5 feats don’t really increase the fighter’s power potential to nearly the same degree as arcane or divine spells. The higher the level required to access a feat, the higher its impact/power needs to be. High-level feats need to be truly scary–if a fighter has to be at least 18th-level to meet the requirements of a feat, that feat needs to have a similar impact to a 9th-level spell. And for powerful feats, don’t be afraid to make them usably only x per encounter/day/whatever.
Also, some anti-magic training feats would be cool, in keeping with fighters and the spirit of D&... er, the Pathfinder RPG. I mean, in a world of magic, there’s gonna be some group of warriors that are going start teaching methods and tricks to deal with magic-using opponents. :D
Lest this be nothing but suggestions and criticism, I think the fighter in the alpha rules is a great start, and I look forward to recreating Gideon (with his trusty two-handed sword of flaming) under the new rules and taking him for a spin in Golarion. :)
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Ideally, the Fighter should have an option to trade in his Medium and Heavy armor proficiencies for some sort of 'Unfettered Dodge' Feats that requires him to not be wearing Heavy (or Medium) armors, but gives him an appropriate Dodge bonus to AC to represent his nimbleness.
Give up Hvy Armor, get a Feat that gives a +2 AC dodge bonus. It's not as much as you'd get from wearing the armor, but it might have some other advantage, like adding that +2 bonus to rolls to Parry blows (assuming that some sort of Parry mechanic is added to the game), or being doubled when the character goes on Total Defense or something. The armored Fighter should always have the higher AC, and the options to have magical armor too boot, but the lightly armored Fighter is no longer quite so hapless by comparison.
I'm all for giving the fighter a 4+Int mod over the 2+Int mod.
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Here's a few suggestions for imporving the fighter. Some of these have already been stated, but I'll compile a list for reference. I don't advocate applying all of these changes. This is just brainstorming.
Begin the fighter BAB at +2 or +3, this will keep the fighter the best character in combat but still let other combat characters shine when their special abilities are in effect. Baseline, the fighter will be better, but, for instance, when a barbarian rages or a paladin smites, they will still have the advantage.
Add for the fighter only a damage or AC bonus of 1/2 fighter class level. The AC bonus should be a dodge bonus.
4+Int skills and a few Dex based class skills would not overpower the fighter.
Allow thr fighter to make all iterative attacks at full BAB.
Eliminate the Weapon Specialization feat chain. Make these feats fighter class abilities at the appropriate level.
Here's a few suggestions for imporving the fighter. Some of these have already been stated, but I'll compile a list for reference. I don't advocate applying all of these changes. This is just brainstorming.
Begin the fighter BAB at +2 or +3, this will keep the fighter the best character in combat but still let other combat characters shine when their special abilities are in effect. Baseline, the fighter will be better, but, for instance, when a barbarian rages or a paladin smites, they will still have the advantage.
Add for the fighter only a damage or AC bonus of 1/2 fighter class level. The AC bonus should be a dodge bonus.
4+Int skills and a few Dex based class skills would not overpower the fighter.
Allow thr fighter to make all iterative attacks at full BAB.
Eliminate the Weapon Specialization feat chain. Make these feats fighter class abilities at the appropriate level.
I must disagree with three of these:
A +2 starting BAB would entice almost every character to take 1 level of fighter. (I certainly would, if I expected to spend any time in melee at all.) Their +1 is fairly tempting as it is, actually.
Although I would have to see some playtesting to be sure, allowing all iterative attacks at full BAB strikes me as scarily overpowered. And it would only compound a problem brought up by DDMW, which is that full-attacking is nearly always the default (and pretty boring) strategy for fighters.
Changing the Weapon Specialization feats to special abilities would make little substantive difference, since only fighters can use them currently anyway. Plus it doesn't make much in-game sense to me - other classes ought to be able to get good with a particular weapon with enough practice (again, as DDMW already said).
However, I agree that the fighter skill list must be expanded. 4 + Int sounds about right, and I generally agree with the skill choices that have been mentioned already.
I think Shadewest makes a good point that extra bonuses should only apply to damage (rather than both attack and damage). Fighters don't have that much trouble hitting things, but any time I play a martial character I eventually get frustrated with the relatively static damage as I advance. (Increased Str and reasonable magic items can't really keep up by themselves.)
I'm less sure about the dodge bonus to AC, and I definitely don't think it should be that high. I think I prefer Alpha's armor training ability - but perhaps one should have the option to choose "none" as an armor type.
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You're right. I hadn't thought about cherry picking for the BAB. Other folks in other threads have mentioned a dislike of iterative attacks altogether, so it looks like some kind of damage improvement is on the right track. The Armor Training /Weapon Training in Alpha is a little slow to tempt me. Perhaps if a player could choose which boost he gets at each level, I'd be more interested.
Have you noticed that rogues can choose a combat trick feat as a rogue talent ability? If we want to keep fighters viable, that really should go. We don't need another class stepping on the fighter's toes while trying to make fighters a viable class.
All of the base classes (except for rogues) need access to more skills or skill points (if Paizo goes back to that way of thinking). Fighters get the worst of it, but clerics and wizards aren't really that much better off (and of course, then you have sorcerers :(
Alternate combat styles is a possibility, but a fairly tight reign must be kept over them to make sure you minimize discrepancies between the various styles and a loss of game balance (in most campaigns spell resistance is a much more useful ability to a fighter than increased ability to control and use a mount in combat).
If we want the Fighter to be able to mimic many different roles, then may I suggest some kind of "fighting school" tree.
For example, all fighters begin with proficiency in light and medium armor. Those fighters that choose the Armored Juggernaut school gets Heavy armor proficiency at 1st level. At later levels, he gains bonuses with medium or heavy armor.
A fighter that chooses a swashbuckling style would get other abilities.
I will admitt that I am not sure how easily it would be to go this route.
The swashbuckler style fighter has always been a problem for the fighter class to handle, but I think PFRPG offers some interesting possibilities.
One is allowing the exchange of armor proficiencies for class skills, feat, and/or special abilities. For example, if you give up heavy armor proficiency, you acquire acrobatics as a free trained class skill. If you also give up medium armor proficiency you gain dodge as a bonus feat. If you also give up light armor proficiency you gain a monk's AC bonus, but it may be based on any one mental stat (so wisdom, intelligence, or charisma as appropriate for your character concept). This bonus would also apply to your ability to CMB to resist special manuevers.
Just a thought.
If we want the Fighter to be able to mimic many different roles, then may I suggest some kind of "fighting school" tree.
For example, all fighters begin with proficiency in light and medium armor. Those fighters that choose the Armored Juggernaut school gets Heavy armor proficiency at 1st level. At later levels, he gains bonuses with medium or heavy armor.
A fighter that chooses a swashbuckling style would get other abilities.
I will admitt that I am not sure how easily it would be to go this route.
Edit: And Epic Meepo beats me to the idea (and it is better written too).
Here is the Fighter a friend and I came up with. We playtested it against monsters of its level vs. an equal CR, so we know its balanced. Its part of the Frank and K Tome series we wrote:
Fighter
"I've seen this kind of fire-breathing chicken-demon before. We're going to need more rope. Also a bigger cart."
The Fighter is a versatile combatant who is able to actively disrupt the activities of his enemies. Fighters represent plucky heroes and grizzled veterans, but they always appear to surmount impossible odds. Which means in retrospect that the odds weren't all that impossible. At least, not for someone with a Fighter's talents.
Playing a Fighter: Fighters are often handed to beginning players in order to help them learn the ropes. This is a cruel practice that dates back to when the Fighter was explicitly a weak class that players were forced to play to the (quit proximate) death if for whatever reason they didn't roll well enough on their stats to play a real character. The Fighter described here is not the hazing ritual of old, but it is a more complicated character than many others, being the non-magical equivalent to the Wizard. Beginning characters should probably be given a Barbarian, Conduit, or Rogue character to introduce them to the game mechanics of D&D.
A Fighter has an answer for virtually any circumstance and a great deal of adaptability and flexibility, and benefits greatly from being played by a player who actually knows how far a Roper's strands or a Beholder's rays reach. The Fighter character is archetypically a character who uses her opponent's limitations against them, and it really slows down play if the player needs to have those limitations explained during combat. As such, a full classed Fighter is recommended for experienced players of the game.
That being said, a level or two of Fighter can give some breadth and resilience to almost any martial build, and makes a good multiclassing dip even (sometimes especially) for inexperienced players.
Alignment: Every alignment has its share of Fighters, however more Fighters are of Lawful alignment than of Chaotic Alignment.
Races: Every humanoid race has warriors, but actual Fighters are rarer in societies that don't value logistics and planning. So while there are many Fighters among the Hobgoblins, Dwarves, and Fire Giants, a Fighter is rarely seen among the ranks of the Orcs, Gnomes, or Ogres.
Starting Gold: 6d6x10 gp (210 gold)
Starting Age: As Fighter.
Hit Die: d10
Class Skills: The Fighter's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skills/Level: 6 + Intelligence Bonus
BAB: Good (1/1), Saves: Fort: Good; Reflex: Good; Will: Good
Level, Benefit
1 Weapons Training, Combat Focus
2 Bonus Feat
3 Problem Solver, Pack Mule
4 Bonus Feat
5 Logistics Mastery, Active Assault
6 Bonus Feat
7 Forge Lore, Improved Delay
8 Bonus Feat
9 Foil Action
10 Bonus Feat
11 Lunging Attacks
12 Bonus Feat
13 Array of Stunts
14 Bonus Feat
15 Greater Combat Focus
16 Bonus Feat
17 Improved Foil Action
18 Bonus Feat
19 Intense Focus, Supreme Combat Focus
20 Bonus Feat
All of the following are Class Features of the Fighter class:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Fighters are proficient with all simple and Martial Weapons. Fighters are proficient with Light, Medium, and Heavy Armor and with Shields and Great Shields.
Weapons Training (Ex): Fighters train obsessively with armor and weapons of all kinds, and using a new weapon is easy and fun. By practicing with a weapon he is not proficient with for a day, a Fighter may permanently gain proficiency with that weapon by succeeding at an Intelligence check DC 10 (you may not take 10 on this check).
Combat Focus (Ex): A Fighter is at his best when the chips are down and everything is going to Baator in a handbasket. When the world is on fire, a Fighter keeps his head better than anyone. If the Fighter is in a situation that is stressful and/or dangerous enough that he would normally be unable to "take 10" on skill checks, he may spend a Swift Action to gain Combat Focus. A Fighter may end his Combat Focus at any time to reroll any die roll he makes, and if not used it ends on its own after a number of rounds equal to his Base Attack Bonus.
Problem Solver (Ex): A Fighter of 3rd level can draw upon his intense and diverse training to respond to almost any situation. As a Swift action, he may choose any [Combat] feat he meets the prerequisites for and use it for a number of rounds equal to his base attack bonus. This ability may be used once per hour.
Pack Mule (Ex): Fighters are used to long journeys with a heavy pack and the use of a wide variety of weaponry and equipment. A 3rd level Fighter suffers no penalties for carrying a medium load, and may retrieve stored items from his person without provoking an attack of opportunity.
Logistics Mastery (Ex): Fighters are excellent and efficient logisticians. When a Fighter reaches 5th level, he gains a bonus to his Command Rating equal to one third his Fighter Level.
Active Assault (Ex): A 5th level Fighter can flawlessly place himself where he is most needed in combat. He may take a 5 foot step as an immediate action. This is in addition to any other movement he takes during his turn, even another 5 foot step.
Forge Lore: A 7th level Fighter can produce magical weapons and equipment as if he had a Caster Level equal to his ranks in Craft.
Improved Delay (Ex): A Fighter of 7th level may delay his action in one round without compromising his Initiative in the next round. In addition, a Fighter may interrupt another action with his delayed action like it was a readied action (though he does not have to announce his intentions before hand).
Foil Action (Ex): A 9th level Fighter may attempt to monkeywrench any action an opponent is taking. The Fighter may throw sand into a beholder's eye, bat aside a key spell component, or strike a weapon hand with a thrown object, but the result is the same: the opponent's action is wasted, and any spell slots, limited ability uses, or the like used to power it are expended. A Fighter must be within 30 feet of his opponent to use this ability, and must hit with a touch attack or ranged touch attack. Using Foil Action is an Immediate action. A Fighter may not wait until an action is partially completed before deciding to attempt to foil the action, but must instead attempt to foil an action as it is declared. Note that this means that a Fighter may not foil a Full Attack (because it is not declared until after it has already begun), nor may he foil a move or charge action that began out of range.
At 17th level, Foil Action may be used at up to 60 feet.
Lunging Attacks (Ex): The battlefield is an extremely dangerous place, and 11th level Fighters are expected to hold off Elder Elementals, Hezrous, and Hamatulas. Fighters of this level may add 5 feet to the reach of any of their weapons.
Array of Stunts (Ex): A 13th level Fighter may take one extra Immediate Action between his turns without sacrificing a Swift action during his next turn.
Greater Combat Focus (Ex): At 15th level, a Fighter may voluntarily expend his Combat Focus as a non-action to suppress any status effect or ongoing spell effect on himself for his Base Attack Bonus in rounds.
Intense Focus (Ex): A 19th level Fighter may take an extra Swift Action each round (in addition to the extra Immediate Action he can take from Array of Stunts).
Supreme Combat Focus (Ex): A 19th level Fighter may expend his Combat Focus as a non-action to take 20 on any die roll. He must elect to use Supreme Combat Focus before rolling the die.
I would be interested in seeing the Weapon/Armor training replaced with some thing like "Martial Training," where Weapon Training, Armor Training and some kind of CMB training (example, a progressive bonus to specific combat maneuvers)are potential options. The capstone ability at level 20 can require a certain amount of specialization within on of the three Martial Training sub categories, and vary depending on the focus of a fighter's Martial Training.
I think Fighter needs to be boosted from the OGL baseline, but I'm not fond of the approach in the PF Alpha 1 release, nor do I agree with DeadDM and most of the posters on this thread about how to accomplish the fighter boost.
Frankly, I think the problem lies not in the fighter class description as written but in the feats they have access to. I don't agree that class abilities are preferable to bonus feats and fighter-only feats. So what if some Monty Haul DMs houserule that nonfighters can take Weapon Specialization? We're talking about rules as written.
First, I think fighters need either more fighter-only feats or existing combat feats be modified so that fighters get an additional boost from them that other classes don't. As an example of the latter approach, Weapon Focus could work as normal for other classes but characters with one level of Fighter could get an additional +1.
Second, scalability is a huge factor. Many feats are hugely advantageous at low levels but become trivial at higher ones. This goes a long way to explain why the Book of 9 Swords Warblade is so much sexier than Fighter; Warblade maneuver/stances scale up like spells rather than provide flat bonusses.
WotC correctly identified this problem, and even worked out a viable fix, but rather late in the 3.x lifecycle. The Combat Form feats in WotC's Players' Handbook II is the perfect model of how, in hindsight, they should have handled most of the combat skill trees. Take a base feat like Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Dodge, or Combat Reflexes, and make it the root of the tree. Make it so that each additional feat using it as a prerequisite not only adds the new feat's advantage, but also boosts the root feat's advantage further, as well as those of most of the other feats in that tree.
Most combat feats that don't fit so well into trees should variabled so that they don't provide fixed bonuses but rather scaled by fighter or character level or BAB.
This approach makes the fighter's bonus feats a lot more appealing. Few feats worth taking at low levels would be seen as a waste at higher ones. And it would provide a method to encourage fighters and other characters to specialize in a combat style without straightjacketing them.
Given that WotC employed this approach a lot with late-added feats like Heritage Feats and Luck Feats, I suspect that they would have employed it themselves if they had been looking to do their own 3.75 instead of 4th Edition. I see it as a very good fix; too bad they didn't follow through.
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Great post, Vexer, and I agree. It's reapproaching and redesigning the fighter feats with an eye to greater dynamics and impact that is going to make fighters a viable, balanced option.
However, other changes that have been suggested like to skills (increasing number of skills and adding more class skills) and adding class abilities with relatively small impact (like the Alpha's Armor Training and Weapon Training) allow the fighter to support more roles and/or add flavor/dynamics to supporting that role.
These two methods, I think, will work together to make the fighter both viable and appealing. :)
The two biggest problems the fighter faces in combat, in my opinion, are his poor defenses and lack of role.
The fighter's saves are too low to resist even low-level spell effects. Usually, they take him completely out of the picture for the combat. We could increase his saves, but a more elegant solution (and one easier to implement during on the fly conversions) is to give the fighter spell resistance equal to 10+fighter level starting at level 4.
The fighter is quickly out-damaged by the casters and the rogue. This would be okay if the fighter could have some other meaningful effect in combat. Unfortunately, he can't. The fighter should be able to stand in front of the wizard to protect him for opponents while he makes them explode. However, by the mid levels, enemies can fly, burrow, teleport, or simply run past the fighter to get to the more dangerous casters. The fighter needs a way to either make enemies attack him or make it very inadvisable to not attack him. This could be a goad function of the intimidate skill, additional attacks of opportunity, a marking system which lets the fighter do additional damage if the opponent doesn't attack him, or a variety of other things. Additionally, the fighter should get an increasing bonus to damage (something like 2 x fighter level) to help him keep up with other classes.
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The fighter's saves are too low to resist even low-level spell effects. Usually, they take him completely out of the picture for the combat. We could increase his saves, but a more elegant solution (and one easier to implement during on the fly conversions) is to give the fighter spell resistance equal to 10+fighter level starting at level 4.
Alternately, a Fighter might be able to use his Shield bonus to AC as a bonus to Reflex save vs. AoE spells, or perhaps the ability to block a Ray spell with a special technique, similar to Deflect Arrows.
A Shield-less lightly armored Fighter would, ideally, already have the option to trade out his Med and Hvy Armor proficiencies for a small bonus to AC while lightly armored, and be able to apply this bonus to Reflex saves vs. spells.
Fighters who went the 2-hander route for extra damage, well, they are out of luck, but every choice has it's trade-offs.
The fighter needs a way to either make enemies attack him or make it very inadvisable to not attack him. This could be a goad function of the intimidate skill, additional attacks of opportunity,
I like both of these functions, and would encourage making a 'taunt' function of Intimidate into a move action at base, and provide a feat or class ability that a Fighter can use to 'taunt' as a Swift Action (or even Immediate, if one thinks that he should be able to start talking smack even if it isn't his turn to swing his sword yet).
a marking system which lets the fighter do additional damage if the opponent doesn't attack him,
4E has a lot of good ideas, and I definitely like the idea of pillaging the best of them to make 3.X games more fun, but this one I kinda hate. Perhaps there could be a class based on this, the 'Interdictor' or something, who invokes divine curses on people to restrict their actions, but as a non-magical Fighter ability, this makes not a lick of sense to me.
Additionally, the fighter should get an increasing bonus to damage (something like 2 x fighter level) to help him keep up with other classes.
Even +1 / 2 levels would be neat. +1 / Fighter level would be pretty beefy, and if using Iterative attacks, might even be over-the-top.
I'd love for the Fighter to be able to make single large attacks, rather than iterative attacks, which would help solve some of this. (Add +base weapon die for every five points by which you beat the creatures AC, for instance.)
Granted, the PHB fighter is geared toward heavy armor and either weapon/shield or two-handed weapon combat. That doesn't mean that you can't make a few changes, though. If you wish to have a variant fighter, then make a fighter variant. Below is an OGL swashbuckler (based on the thug in the SRD):
Fighter Variant: Swashbuckler
The swashbuckler is a duellist and rake, one who is adept with both a sharp sword and sharp wits. He has most of the fighter's strengths, along with an aptitude for social interaction. He concentrates on mobility and canny use of tactics and terrain to defeat his opponents, rather than heavy weapons and armor.
Swashbucklers tend to neutral or chaotic alignments.
Class Skills
Add the following skills to the fighter's class list- Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and Tumble. The swashbuckler gains skill points per level equal to 4 + Int modifier (x4 at 1st level).
Class Features
The swashbucker has all of the standard fighter's class features, except as noted below.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Swashbucklers are proficient with simple and martial weapons, light armor, and bucklers.
Bonus Feats
At 1st level, swashbucklers must choose either Combat Expertise or Weapon Finesse as a their bonus feat. Remove Power Attack (and feats in the Power Attack feat chain) from the list of bonus feats available to swashbucklers.
You can take much the same path with the Pathfinder RPG fighter.
I like the idea of trading out proficiency with armor types for skills. Let them choose two skills per proficiency given up, and treat those skills as trained class skills. For example, trading heavy armor prof for know(nature) and Perception. This would give the fighter greater flexibility and allow for different character ideas.
I would also like to see some of the abilities listed by K above as feats that could be taken by fighters only.