As the title says.
I was reviewing the wizard options and took a nice long look at the universalist; after looking at it I though "whoah, why would anyone not play one?" (other than purely RP reasons)
It gets wish and limited wish free of charge. It gets essentially spontaneous metamagic with any metamagic feat they have and a free metamagic feat by 8th level. To add to this, their other spell-like abilities are not shabby either. Now, removing the wishes and changing them to something else would help, it might even be balanced against the others if the caster had to give up 2 school of magic daily to use the abilities.
As it stands however, they get +2 on all saves and +4 to overcome spell resistance, the equivalent of 18 feats (spell focus, all, both spell penentrations). Albeit at 20th level, but it still blows away things like the evokers overcome energy immunity (cast a different type of spell for same effect) or the necromancers conversion to undead (not nearly as wonderful now that they can be sneaked).
So, while I don't want to seem like a flamer, the uiversalist is sending my "munchkinmeter" off the charts.
All of those are very limited per day though. I thought it was nice that the universalist didn't suck compared to specialists, which they have for all time previous.
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All of those are very limited per day though. I thought it was nice that the universalist didn't suck compared to specialists, which they have for all time previous.
Most of what specialists get is limited per day too, and it isn't clear what advantage specialists are gaining by choosing to have prohibited schools. The universalists are seemingly just as (if not more) powerful than specialists, and with no drawback.
Personally, I'd kick the spell-like abilities back a couple levels for universalists - they get a 3rd level spell as a SPA at 8th, rather than 6th. In addition to their multiple-use shield, give them another 1/day 1st level SPA at 4th (identify, maybe) and then move everything else down a notch. This would remove the wish problem too, as it happens.
the one that jumped out was wish I would change this to something like a free recasting of a spell or something.
the one that jumped out was wish I would change this to something like a free recasting of a spell or something.
t just seems that they tried to make the universalist abilities equal with the specialist's, forgetting that the specialists need to not use 2 schools of magic in order to utilize their powers.
I think, from page 17, that it's only the specialist bonus you lose if you prepare prohibited spells.
The options don't look immediately unbalanced to me (well, apart from that free wish thing), but I need to mull them over some more and play with them a bit first.
Even if this is the case, the universalist doesn't have anything to lose and they gain a free metamagic feat that has no such lockout procedure.
I think, from page 17, that it's only the specialist bonus you lose if you prepare prohibited spells.
The options don't look immediately unbalanced to me (well, apart from that free wish thing), but I need to mull them over some more and play with them a bit first.
The universalist is rather strong. At the point you get the 'spontaneous metamagic' ability you can quicken your top-tier spells.
Granted, they're saddled with shoddy spells like levitate and fireball, but once they hit 8th, they become amazing. And of course, using the 3.5 splatbooks with this is just a bad idea. 8th level hits, and bam! Persistant improved invisibility/fly/displacement or what have you. Of course, even with just core, at 8th level the universalist can just use quicken to pull a first turn Nova strike twice per day.
Compared to this, the evoker and conjurer just look sad.
Btw, I can't look things up at the moment. With wish and limited wish granted as (spell-likes?), does he even have to pay the XP cost?
Limited wish and wish need to be replaced with other spells.
The first level Hand of the Apprentice could be rather powerful at 1st level - a 1st level wizard with base 18 Int, +2 for race, +3 for age modifiers gets a 23 Int and can levitate a sword that attacks with +6 to hit and +6 to damage. This tapers off quickly. Not really much of an issue with it, as it gives the wizard a good option to use instead of spells and makes low level more fun.
I don't mind all of the metamagic bonuses and all that jazz, but think wish and limited wish need to be taken out of the equation. These are terrible ideas as spell-like abilities, which have no cost.
Perhaps some limitation could be put in such as "At the start of your day, you must prepare spells of all the other schools to gain your Universalist bonuses. If you are unable to prepare a number of daily spells that is great enough to prepare all of the other schools, you must prepare as many schools as possible." But, I don't think this would work well, as it would limit your spell choices a bit.
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I'm not sure about the daily spells they get, but the ability at level 20 is extremely nice. I don't think they should be this much better (+4) at overcoming spell resistance than all the specialists, especially in their chosen school. Perhaps at level 20 all specialists should get a +2 insight bonus to overcome SR with spells of their specialist school, and universalists gaining the +2 to a school of their choice as well as spells tagged 'universal'.
Limited Wish and Wish once a day as a spell-like ability? HECK YEAH!
As a player..... I'd never do anything else.
As a DM.....can you say automatic house rule?
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The first level Hand of the Apprentice could be rather powerful at 1st level - a 1st level wizard with base 18 Int, +2 for race, +3 for age modifiers gets a 23 Int and can levitate a sword that attacks with +6 to hit and +6 to damage. This tapers off quickly. Not really much of an issue with it, as it gives the wizard a good option to use instead of spells and makes low level more fun.
I re-read Hand of the Apprentice, and you are right. It's a great alternative to a wizard shooting his crossbow when he's out of spells, but the bonus to damage is too much. I recommend offering the bonus to hit, but that's it.
And as a DM, I wouldn't let a 1st level character start with an age modifier granting +3 to Int ... just the way I am.
Something else to consider. Hand of the Apprentice works like mage hand, with an extra option to fight for you. So, what Str factor does the Hand of the Apprentice have if you keep the +6 to damage?
Director of Games
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Hello All,
After reading a large number of posts on the subject (and talking it over with fellow staffers), I am starting to agree with many of you.
Here are some of the shifts I am considering.
8th Lv - This power is usable once per day per two levels of the caster.
14th Lv - Plane Shift 1/day
20th Lv - Meteor Swarm 1/day
There is another option, and that is to greatly alter how wish and limited wish function. These spells are high on my list of spells to be altered (by toning them down a bit and removing the XP cost). Such changes might make them a more even spell to have in these slots.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
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8th Lv - This power is usable once per day per two levels of the caster.
Would this limit:
Any time you use this ability to apply a
metamagic feat that increases the spell level by more than
1, you must use an additional daily usage for each level
above 1 that the feat adds to the spell.
still apply?
If not, it doesn't really solve anything. But if it does, then I think it should be fine. I am not certain since I don't have the SRD in front of me to double check. But it should be fine.
Ya know jason this school does seem strong sense u have to give up nothing for it either give specialist something else or cut back power for universal alot i would think.
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There is another option, and that is to greatly alter how wish and limited wish function. These spells are high on my list of spells to be altered (by toning them down a bit and removing the XP cost). Such changes might make them a more even spell to have in these slots.
I wouldn't change the spells -- they aren't horribly broken, and to keep as much backwards-compatability as possible, I'd rather see the footprint for changes be kept as small as possible. Better to just tweak your Universal Wizard abilities.
Just my 2 farthings ...
Hello All,
After reading a large number of posts on the subject (and talking it over with fellow staffers), I am starting to agree with many of you.
Here are some of the shifts I am considering.
8th Lv - This power is usable once per day per two levels of the caster.
14th Lv - Plane Shift 1/day
20th Lv - Meteor Swarm 1/dayThere is another option, and that is to greatly alter how wish and limited wish function. These spells are high on my list of spells to be altered (by toning them down a bit and removing the XP cost). Such changes might make them a more even spell to have in these slots.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
8th level change isn't really any different, depending on what feat you're using. In some cases its actually worse in terms of sheer power. Original version, you could quicken two spells. This version, you can quicken four.
14 & 20. Like levitate and fireball, these are very... arbitrary selections. Nothing about any of these spells says 'universal' to me. Mostly its spells I actually don't want, so if the point is to dissuade someone looking at the generalist, I suppose thats... good. In a way? But it doesn't look like a happy solution.
I highly recommend doing things to both wish spells. As is they are a problem. Or rather, a collection of problems.
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8th Lv - This power is usable once per day per two levels of the caster.
14th Lv - Plane Shift 1/day
20th Lv - Meteor Swarm 1/dayThoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
I really like the 20th level Universal ability makes him good at all spells like they should be
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I really like the 20th level Universal ability makes him good at all spells like they should be.
8th Lv - This power is usable once per day per two levels of the caster.
14th Lv - Plane Shift 1/day
20th Lv - Meteor Swarm 1/dayThoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
I agree, the 20th level ability should stay the same. I think the change to the 8th level ability and the changes to limited wish and wish should definately be made, but as a player I like the flavor of Master of all Schools.
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I agree, the 20th level ability should stay the same. I think the change to the 8th level ability and the changes to limited wish and wish should definately be made, but as a player I like the flavor of Master of all Schools.I really like the 20th level Universal ability makes him good at all spells like they should be.
8th Lv - This power is usable once per day per two levels of the caster.
14th Lv - Plane Shift 1/day
20th Lv - Meteor Swarm 1/dayThoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Strongly seconded, but if you find the 20th level one to be too powerful, please just cut it in half instead of removing it (+1 DC, +2 v SR) or trading it. It just fits better than another spell...
If you do get rid of the wish, please use JJ's suggested "any one spell you know" option.
FP
The spells selected were chosen because they are iconic wizard powers.
Yes but, iconic wizard powers tend to be oconic because they are effective. No, the universalist should not be ineffective, but his effectivness should mostly come from the fact that he can use every spell without losing his powers.
Instead of metamagicing, might you instead allow the wizard to cast spells not on his list 1/day per 2 levels, with higher level spells taking up more uses (2 uses/level)
Seing as it is a "Universalist", perhaps leave some of the levels open to allow the player to determine which ability to include from a range of possibilities.
I realize that most DMs and Players could probably work this one out anyway, but I see it this way: The Universalist Wizard is to the wizard class what Humans are to races.
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I've only given the schools a fairly cursory look so far, but I think the answer to this problem probably lies with "wish" itself. I think flavor-wise, "wish" makes sense for the universalist -- its basically tapping raw magic to do ... anything. The spell just needs to be toned down a bit and some of the endless loops and other wackiness limited or eliminated. Nerf it!
As I've said on another thread, my favorite way to handle the generalist wizard would be to give them the limited wish and wish only for the purposes of duplicating spells, not item creation, money-generation, stat enhancing, etc.
Universalist is to strong as a Spell-like ability it is way to abuseable for creating magic items with Wish since the spell-like ability negates any experience point costs.
PC can make a 25,000 gp items one day without the crafting feat or enhance an existing item. Day two enhance it. Day 3 enhance it again.
That is without the nonsense of exceding the standard Wish parameters and Wishing for a Fully Charged Luck Blade or a Ring of 3 Wishes or Two Candles of Invocation.
Agree better to treat it as an "Arcane" Miracle for spell duplication only no Greater Miracles without the PC paying the experience point costs..
As I've said on another thread, my favorite way to handle the generalist wizard would be to give them the limited wish and wish only for the purposes of duplicating spells, not item creation, money-generation, stat enhancing, etc.
I am a big fan of this idea. A "Universal" wizard should be all about flexibility. The 18th level school power could be:
1) The duplicating spell elements of wish, or
2) The ability to cast a spell of ANY level, as long as it is a spell that is in the wizard's spellbook. This means it could still be a 9th level spell but limits selection and rewards the universal wizard for collecting a wide variety of spells. I think this would also require that the wizard pay all component costs, since the flexibility of choosing any spell is already such a benefit.
Also, my players and I don't like ANYTHING that takes away XP. We have already removed the XP costs for crafting magic items, and lo! finally the PCs are crafting items, something that has never happened at my table before. Thus, I would really like a new, toned-down version of Wish, regardless of whether it stays as the Universal power.
Thanks,
O
Couple of quick notes.
The usage rules still apply (spending 4 uses for quicken for example), even though the number of uses is halved.
The spells selected were chosen because they are iconic wizard powers.
Just some thoughts.. keep rollin...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
I can't remember *any* time, let alone the last time I saw someone use or even choose Levitate.
Fireball.. pretty much isn't iconic for 3e.
Planeshift? Not often. only if the story really requires it or the dm really doesn't mind the party literally going off the map.
Meteor Swarm... like fireball, this is just a poor choice with whats out there, even just in the core rules.
Globe of invulnerability I can sort of see, but I dislike the duplication of abjuration. (Similarly air and weather domains are treading on each other a lot).
Teleportation makes sense.
Prismatic wall? Sphere maybe, but Wall is 'that other prismatic spell'
I don't understand the complaining about wish and limited wish - the universalist can cast them already at those levels. It's just "one extra spell" like all the Web 1/day etc etc abilities. Unless you houserule that a wizard can't take wish as a normal ninth level spell, I don't see the problem.
Furthermore I don't like replacing them with meteor swarm et al - those aren't universalist spells, they're evocations.
I don't understand the complaining about wish and limited wish - the universalist can cast them already at those levels. It's just "one extra spell" like all the Web 1/day etc etc abilities. Unless you houserule that a wizard can't take wish as a normal ninth level spell, I don't see the problem.
Furthermore I don't like replacing them with meteor swarm et al - those aren't universalist spells, they're evocations.
The issue is that as a spell-like ability, they do not require XP to cast.
Personally - Limited Wish 1/day is fine - not going to get items out of it or anything. And there are *so* few Universal spells to grand.
Making Wish into "Any 8th level or lower spell" would be pretty reasonable.
Level 20 power needs to be at least halved. Even then it would be equivalent to 9 feats.
I also don't think the Universal school should get a power, since it doesn't give up anything for it. But besides that, a metamagic feat at first level is close to useless ("Ummm.. I take Quicken.", "Why?", "Cause I'll use it in 6 or 8 levels.").
I'd agree with keeping Wish, but making it for spell-duplication only. That really seems to fit the flavor of Universalists truly being universal casters.
personally, as I have stated before, I think that the universalit needs complete rewrite.
They already have a not insignificant advantage in being able to cast every spell on the list without losing their abilities; trying to make their special abilities on par with the specialists while not taking this fact into account is just plain wrong. Make them possess the utility spells, the strange ones that no wizard would normally prepare but are useful anyway. As for metamagic; no, just no. Not all universalists will want metamagic (many but not all); the special abilities of the universalist should be in spell utility and adaptation rather than enhancement.
-Change free metamagic feat at 1st level to free wizard bonus feat at 1st level
-Change the spells to reflect a more "universal" approach that doesn't seem to step on schools like evocation or abjuration.
-Change the metamagic mastery to "spell reparation" 1/day per 2 levels a character may recall a spell he or she just cast, spells of higher than 1st level require a number of uses per day equal to the spells level (ex: 2nd level spell = 2 uses)
-Remove limited wish/wish except for the uses of duplicating spells
-Halve the 20th level bonuses
There is a much simpler fix for this problem. Get rid of the universalist! Since specialists are no longer forced to forego spells from the prohibited schools, there is no need for the universalist at all (and the specialists are more flavorful anyway), so why keep him artificially in the game, where every wizard can act as a universalists if he wants to?
Note: Just to clarify, when I play wizards in 3.5e, I tend to play universalists, because I don't want to lose access to any spells, but with the new specialists this is no longer an issue.
Hello All,
After reading a large number of posts on the subject (and talking it over with fellow staffers), I am starting to agree with many of you.
Here are some of the shifts I am considering.
8th Lv - This power is usable once per day per two levels of the caster.
14th Lv - Plane Shift 1/day
20th Lv - Meteor Swarm 1/dayThere is another option, and that is to greatly alter how wish and limited wish function. These spells are high on my list of spells to be altered (by toning them down a bit and removing the XP cost). Such changes might make them a more even spell to have in these slots.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Having played D&D since the late 70's, I always considered the versatility as the strongest part of the Wizard. I agree with Rhavin that the universalist should not be a metamagic caster and would like to see some different abilities granted that would add to the flavar of a generalist. Such as the reduced time making magic items.
Some Ideas
Ability to copy spells into spellbooks at no cost.
Reduced cost to research spells.
Ability to duplicate a spell somone else just cast.
Recover one spell previously cast upto one level below the max he can cast.
As for additional spells that he can cast 1/d, they should be unspecific but limited to utility spells. (Floating Disc, Tiny Hut) The wizard choosing the spell at time he gains ability.
There is another option, and that is to greatly alter how wish and limited wish function. These spells are high on my list of spells to be altered (by toning them down a bit and removing the XP cost). Such changes might make them a more even spell to have in these slots.
Thoughts?
8th Why wouldn't it always be Quicken which would be 4/day?
Limited Wish and Wish are really great capstones just consider toning them down to spell duplication perhaps with different names Alter Reality and Alter Reality Greater to address the crafting and costly spell duplication abuse.
IMO Plane Shift is bad, in anything but a regular planar campaign the PC has an ability he can't really use. A few choices like Teleport Greater, a powered down Limited Wish for spell duplication, Magnificent Mansion, Shadow Conjuration Greater
I'd prefer to see the generalist and all the specialists get a few choices at L20: Foresight or Shades or Summon Monster 9 or Timestop.
What could be an interesting option for Specialists is when they learn spells in their opposed school they regain the Universalist school. That way the school isn't overpowered and the other schools pick up a few more benefits and a reason to specialize.
I find it to strong since it gives nothing up this is what i came up with It will be refined a bit in time give me ideals if you have them.
no bounse they give nothing up
1st hand of the apprentice
2nd no cost to copy spells into the spell book
4th shield 1/day
6th craft pool for magic items 20x caster level
8th craft magic item is 1/2 normal time
10th reduce spell research by 50%
12th metamagic mastery 1/4 caster levels
14th craft pool is 200 x caster level
16th recast any spell cast 7th level or lower
18th spontaneous caster may give up a spell to cast one 1per INT mod
20th mastery of all schools
thats my ideals would love some feed back I just find the one in alpha to good since you give nothing up for it.
How about instead of Wish or Limited Wish the ability to recall spent spell slots. In other words, if you prepare and cast (say) dispel magic, and that was your last one, but you need it again, you can recall it using the Universalist ability at a given level. I don't know how high a spell level you'd want them to be able to recall (I'm not presently at a place where I can bust out my books and look at them), but as written wish and limited wish are just bizarre and outlandish without restrictions.
I would say replace Limited Wish with "Casting Mastery": 1/day per 2 levels cast 1 spell at +1 Caster Level
Then replace wish with "Spell Reparation": 1/day per caster level, chaneg one prepared spell to another spell memorized, a spell higher than level one uses up more than one daily slot on a one for one basis (3rd level takes 3 uses).