It's dead, Jim........
You aint kidding.
Heh. Watcher's real name.
"Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor not a civil right's activist!"
There's been a lot of vanities to be tossed in bonfires here. Anybody who thinks they're staving off the death of civilization and self-exression at the hands of depersonalizing corporate despotism, right here at Paizo.com.. might want to step back and revaluate.
Self-censorship is a good thing. Its what keeps a lot of married men married, after all. :-)
Greg
QFT!
I say AMEN and HALLELUJAH, brotha!
But not so loud, our wives are in the next room. :-)
We certainly want your opinion. We value the opinion of all of our customers and our history on these boards and our history with our products SHOWS that we value opinions.What we don't value are people personally attacking one another. Its not the spirit of these boards and never has been.
Why do you keep repeating that to me? Look again: People are telling me to go away and calling me childish. Maybe not to my face, but it's not just a personal attack if someone names names.
And no, I don't want you to reprimand your defenders because they're defending you too rudely. I just want this to be clear.
EDIT: There was a post here, and if it gets replied to.. so be it...
But I changed my mind. I want no part of keeping this thread going.
I am hoping that we can get back to the way our messageboards were before the whole 4e schism. Perhaps I am being naive, but I am hoping that moderation will become something that happens only rarely. Just to let people know, we HAVE moderated in the past. It just wasn't very often and probably wasn't noticed that much. The 4e threads have gotten toxic. We needed to fix this. If we get back to good old fashioned discussion, then you won't notice that there is moderation, because we won't need it.
Feel free to like or not like a game, a decision by a company, whatever. But do it without attacking people or making disparaging comments. You can talk about why you think that the powers of 4e make it feel like WOW to you. You can talk about how 3.5 bogs down at high levels. Just don't say it in a way that feels like you are attacking somebody or some company, or making it sound like they are retarded or eat feces. You can get a point across without being mean about it. Really, you guys are THAT good. I believe in your writing prowess.
You guys know that I have always been an advocate for free speech. I really believe in letting people say their piece. I just want it done in a respectful and civil way. I fought against using moderation on the 4e boards, and got us to compromise by putting my sticky asking people to be civil. But that obviously didn't work. So now we are trying this. I don't like it much, but I like the way our 4e boards have been going even less. So we are going to try this as the lesser of two evils and hopefully get back to the cool messageboards that we were. Take a look at the Rise of the Runelords boards to see how cool this place can be. They have been invaluable for me as I prepare to run that as my next campaign. Goblin song mp3...priceless!
-Lisa
You wouldn't have this problem if you simply announced what version your future products would assume. Once that happens half the community will simply move on. If you choose 3.5, then the 4.0 lovers will move on to the WoTC board and DnDinsider. If you choose 4.0, the 3.5 fans will move on to whatever community fills that void. You can't have your cake and eat it to here. Stringing people along like you have has caused peopely to become anxious. When people get anxious they get mean and that is what has happened here.
This is a mess of your own creation. Don't blame the oommunity, blame your lack of sincerity. I am sure that you have already decided which version you are planning to go with and that the announcement has been held up so that you can sell our of the printings of material you have in inventory. You can blame WoTC for being late on releasing 4.0, but that excuse is getting old. I saw 4.0 at DnDXP and know enough to decide which version I want to support. I have a good idea of whether or not it can support your products as well.
Removing posts is like kidnapping political dissidents in the middle of the night and silencing them. This was a fairly free board until recently. Sooner or later you'll make your announcment and people will calm down. In the meantime your just going to have to live with people spewing their opinions and insulting each other in the process until you do.
Take some responsibility here. When politicians insult the community they represent they get voted out of office. Or resign like client 9.
I'm confused.
We've asked folks to be civil in 1/38th of our messageboard and people are fleeing for the hills? After we asked nicely for folks to be civil, they continued to be less-than-civil, so we cleaned up 1/38th of our messageboard and asked everyone to please rethink their approach to lacking civility in that 1/38th of our messageboard. Yes, that means light moderation. On 1/38th of our messageboard.
I'm sorry to see everyone go. I'm also sticking by the fact that if you can't talk about 4E without personally attacking other members or insulting other companies in the industry, then this probably isn't your board.
Your 1/38th of the messageboard falls flat. That 1/38th probably sees at least a third of the activity on this board. People want to discuss 3.5/4.0. I'm sure the item card boards don't get this much love.
Your post simply supports the opinion of many of the members of this community that this is no longer a place for them to express their opinions.
Will you be happy with a board that you consider civil with less traffic. I wonder how that will effect your revenue or translate into traffic for this site?
I hope your willing to stake your job on it, because that is what you have done.
Troll, Troll, Troll
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This is a mess of your own creation. Don't blame the oommunity, blame your lack of sincerity. I am sure that you have already decided which version you are planning to go with and that the announcement has been held up so that you can sell our of the printings of material you have in inventory. You can blame WoTC for being late on releasing 4.0, but that excuse is getting old. I saw 4.0 at DnDXP and know enough to decide which version I want to support. I have a good idea of whether or not it can support your products as well.
For a troll you often talk a lot of sense.
However, this time I think you are missing the point. Paizo are interested in the terms of the 4th edition licence, not the rules.
They haven't seen the licence, so they can't decide whether it will be in their best interests to sign it.
If I was in their position, I'd be particularly interested in how it meshes with the OGL. There have been any number of wild rumours on this topic.
For a troll you often talk a lot of sense.
However, this time I think you are missing the point. Paizo are interested in the terms of the 4th edition licence, not the rules.
They haven't seen the licence, so they can't decide whether it will be in their best interests to sign it.
If I was in their position, I'd be particularly interested in how it meshes with the OGL. There have been any number of wild rumours on this topic.
Why would you want to work with a company that can't even deliver something as simple as a licensing agreement. To me this shows great weakness. I'd go off an create my own products and make some real money. That takes courage and I see no spine when I see no announcement.
I wouldn't be surprised if there is some back room dealing going on over this. Maybe Paizo becomes the "official adventure producer" for WoTC or something like that.
The only reason why Paizo hasn't made an announcement yet is that they will be going to 4.0. Once they do that half the posters on this board who happen to be the majority of those whose posts were deleted will move on and take their dollars with them. Then those who continue to play 3.5 will lump Paizo with WoTC in the greed/dishonest crowd. Paizo will say its simply business, but thats not going to make anyone happy. People vote with their dollars and Paizo, like a politician, is betting that there are more voters for 4.0. Of course, like a politician they don't want to take any ciriticism for holding an unpopular position with their constituants.
I hope I'm wrong, but until I am proven otherwise, I'm sticking with my story.
Troll, Troll, Troll..........................Troll!
Senior Software Developer
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Troll, Troll, Troll..........................Troll!
Tim, I'm curious. Sometimes you end your posts with "troll, troll, troll" and sometimes you don't. Are you actively trying to take part in the conversation, or is the "troll, troll, troll" an indication that you're trying to derail conversation?
It's a shame that there isn't some middle path. Another message board I'm on that has some ...interesting posters has the ability to put folks on probation: they can read the forums but can't post. It's used in place of a ban or outright deletion to give people some time to cool off. Often *both* sides in a particularly heated debate will be put on probation for a day or three. In addition, the reason for the probation is available to *everyone* to see (it's like this for bans, too).
I think that transparency is key to making it work. Yes, probations or banning are censorship, but it's censorship based on the dynamics of the forum. Each online forum is a pretty unique community if you're doing it right, and like any community it's going to have its own set of mores. The only way for people to know what that particular forum considers egregrious offenses is to see what has been banned/probated/censored in the past. You build a much better picture of where the line is, and because it's open to everyone to see, people don't have really any excuse for being an ass.
Right now, I think a lot of the problem is stuff is just disappearing into thin air. I know I've been confused by a number of threads where posts just disappeared with no marker or anything. I only noticed it when people below the suppressed line had responded to the post prior to the removal and the quote was still there. You want to rein in the flaming and threadcrapping? Fine--rein in the people doing the posting. Prevent them from posting for a bit, and let them (and everyone else) SEE that they're being punished for being jerks and asses. THAT'S how you moderate without coming off as being censoring, because people start to figure out where your line is.
Moderating a forum, particularly one as active as this one is, is *not* an easy or fun task, as numerous posters have pointed out. But it is necessary, because the moderators are responsible for maintaining the "culture" of the forum. Right now, Paizo's falling down on that--just "disappearing" things you don't like works in the short term, because hey, the inflammatory stuff is gone. But it backfires in the long term, because people don't know where the line is and they get paranoid about it and end up leaving or reducing their participation for fear of the banhammer.
I'm *not* for a complete lack of moderation. People *will* be jerks on the internet, and if you don't control them they *will* overrun your forum. But you can't pander to the thin-skins, either, because that kills (as someone else noted) the passion and involvement people have--forums and such are a place where you're supposed to be a bit over the top. If the load on Paizo's staff is too high, perhaps consider adding some volunteer mods from the community for particular areas that attract flames.
It seems to me that there's two things missing: a technical ability to cool people off through probation or something similar and a willingness to moderate in the open so that the line is visible.
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Senior Software Developer
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We do not disappear posts without leaving an explanation in the thread. If posts are missing and there's no explanation, it's almost certainly one of a few known messageboard bugs which I am trying to fix.
We also do have the ability to give someone a timeout. We've used it precisely once.
[edit]Yes, on the day we started the moderation of this forum we removed a bunch of stuff from a lot of older threads and didn't leave notes, but that was mainly because there was just so much crap to deal with. Going forward our policy is to be open and always leave a note.
I am also a bit disturbed that the censorship thing seems to have been driven by the marketing guy, Joshua.
What bothers me about this statement, Aubrey, is it doesn't allow me to just be some guy who works for Paizo who didn't like that the 4E sub forum was turning into a place that very few people wanted to visit. (Which is the truth.) You may see this as censorship, I see it as us asking people to play nice.
I agree, Josh, I didn't want to visit the 4E forum. But of course there's no more asking, is there. And as a marketer you must admit that the way we see it is what matters.
How you see things worries us. Dead Horse wasn't even posting and the alias was silenced. I understand one of Razz's posts got suppressed without it having broken the rules, and maybe there are others. Some steps were beyond the limits you stated yet they were controlled, so don't you worry that excessive censorship/suppression/control/silencing (choose your word) will make Paizo a place where people don't want to visit?
...so don't you worry that excessive censorship/suppression/control/silencing (choose your word) will make Paizo a place where people don't want to visit?
Yep.
And have you seen any moderating outside of this sub-forum in the last six months?
Troll, Troll, Troll..........................Troll!Tim, I'm curious. Sometimes you end your posts with "troll, troll, troll" and sometimes you don't. Are you actively trying to take part in the conversation, or is the "troll, troll, troll" an indication that you're trying to derail conversation?
I have the same curiosity. If this is an attempt to derail the conversation ... I only write about trolls, I don't feed them.
If they're serious questions, then I'm willing to discuss them.
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People vote with their dollars and Paizo, like a politician, is betting that there are more voters for 4.0. Of course, like a politician they don't want to take any criticism for holding an unpopular position with their constituents.
They're a business. Do they really have any choice but to follow the revenue?
We do not disappear posts without leaving an explanation in the thread. If posts are missing and there's no explanation, it's almost certainly one of a few known messageboard bugs which I am trying to fix.
We also do have the ability to give someone a timeout. We've used it precisely once.
[edit]Yes, on the day we started the moderation of this forum we removed a bunch of stuff from a lot of older threads and didn't leave notes, but that was mainly because there was just so much crap to deal with. Going forward our policy is to be open and always leave a note.
That's fantastic to hear, then. A couple of questions:
Why don't you use the timeout feature more? I suspect most of the posts that are vitriolic are so because the poster is writing in the heat of emotion, rather than some kind of systematic attempt to be a jerk/troll. Giving particularly "energetic" posters a timeout for a while might be an easy way to cool down heated discussions without forcing censorship.
Is there any way to collect these reasons somewhere for everyone to see? Obviously this is easier if they're tied to timeouts or bans rather than just being a mod snip in a particular thread. I bring it up because I think if there's no way to centrally look at moderator activity it makes it much harder to get a sense for where the line is. I don't read every thread, generally, so the odds are I'm going to miss someone being a jerk and getting slapped down for it.
Also, as a general note for people posting: take responsibility for your words and think before you hit that post key. Are you being a jerk? Are you responding to that other guy's points, or are you calling his mother fat (or both at the same time)? Are you angry about the person's post and that's why you're posting? If so, maybe you should cancel and step away from the thread for a while. Come back later when you've got a bit cooler head, and post then. I suspect your post will be better quality and you'll avoid seeming like a lout. Doesn't mean you have to take crap from someone, just that you should weigh your words before putting them out there.. because they're yours and reflect on you.
This applies double to people who are passive-aggressive and snarky to others who are obviously passionate and emotionally involved in something: you know what you're doing, and if you don't the first couple of times you get a blistering response should clue you in. You're equally at fault in things, and I hope the moderators keep a sharp watch for you as well as the frothers.
...so don't you worry that excessive censorship/suppression/control/silencing (choose your word) will make Paizo a place where people don't want to visit?
Yep.And have you seen any moderating outside of this sub-forum in the last six months?
'Yep' was the answer. That makes me happy. Although I still wonder WHY some things have been censored.
AND, even though I said nothing about the last six months, you have mysteriously asked the question so I will reply:
Before things went nuclear, Gary would just warn someone and the problem was, by and large, solved. When something totally crazy went up, Gary locked the thread, and EVEN erased one of my posts. For example, after the mags were canceled a guy started a thread proposing a protest at Gencon. It was really over the top and so I replied to him suggesting that he immolate himself in front of the WotC shop - tactless but hilarious I thought - HE was being an idiot so I thought I'd be one too. I laughed deeply over it. I understood why: Paizo did not want demonstrations against WotC organized on their forums. My post was disappeared because it was... black. After that, occasional thread locks and warnings have occurred, mostly for obvious reasons.
So yes, I have seen very limited moderating going back farther than 6 months.
Why don't you use the timeout feature more?We issue warnings to people before we resort to that. That usually does the trick.
I guess I should have asked "why haven't you used it more in the 4e forum more often?"
It seems like we went from "please be civil" to removing threads and deleting posts in one pop.
Why don't you use the timeout feature more?We issue warnings to people before we resort to that. That usually does the trick.
I guess I should have asked "why haven't you used it more in the 4e forum more often?"
It seems like we went from "please be civil" to removing threads and deleting posts in one pop.
January 4th we asked people to be civil. This was in response to months of folks not being civil.
March 12th we put the hammer down.
That hardly qualifies as "one pop". :-)
I guess I should have asked "why haven't you used it more in the 4e forum more often?"It seems like we went from "please be civil" to removing threads and deleting posts in one pop.
January 4th we asked people to be civil. This was in response to months of folks not being civil.
March 12th we put the hammer down.
That hardly qualifies as "one pop". :-)
Um.. I might be misunderstanding, but that is one pop: you put up the warning thread and then a couple of months later started removing threadsn and deleting posts.
I guess I was just expecting something along the lines of:
* Put up "please be civil", give it a week or three
* No/inadequate response: start issuing warnings and timeouts
* Warnings/timeouts not producing desired levels of civility, change sticky to "Be civil or you're gone" and then give it a few days or a week (while still doing warnings/timeouts)
* No/inadequate response: drop the banhammer
...which is considerably more than one pop. I'd also have no problem with reducing the delays/wait for response to a couple of days on things. This may in fact have occurred, but I didn't notice it.
Water under the bridge at this point, though, so what can you do?
<---Thug
Troll, Troll, Troll..........................Troll!Tim, I'm curious. Sometimes you end your posts with "troll, troll, troll" and sometimes you don't. Are you actively trying to take part in the conversation, or is the "troll, troll, troll" an indication that you're trying to derail conversation?
I put the "troll, troll, troll" at the end of my posts for Sebastion. He was the first to call me a troll. And since he considers every one of my post a troll post I end it with a "toll, troll, troll"
I don't want to disappoint.
<---parents didn't beat him enough.
As for the "drop of the hammer"... it worked. No more posts are being suppressed.
Eggs were broken - the omelet tastes good.
I like mine with green peppers, onions, mushrooms, sausage, ham, and extra cheese.
Um.. I might be misunderstanding, but that is one pop: you put up the warning thread and then a couple of months later started removing threadsn and deleting posts.
Between the Jan. 4th sticky thread asking all to be civil and the Heavy Moderation Day of Doom XZ-70, as Josh calls it, there were numerous posts by Piazo staffers, most memorably Lesa Stevens (CEO), asking folks to tone it down and be civil. There has never been a time here on the boards where the staff have not been perfectly clear as to what they wanted the "signal to noise" ratio to be. Also, there are the messageboard rules:
Users who participate in our message boards agree to not: make any bigoted, hateful or racially offensive statements; defame, abuse, stalk, harass or threaten others; advocate illegal activity or discuss illegal activities with the intent to commit them. While Paizo Publishing does not pre-screen message content, Paizo Publishing does reserve the right to edit or remove submitted messages or material at any time.
IMO, a long line of handslaps are not needed. I've never had a problem understanding these rules and the intent in which Paizo hosts these boards.
Troll, Troll, Troll..........................Troll!Tim, I'm curious. Sometimes you end your posts with "troll, troll, troll" and sometimes you don't. Are you actively trying to take part in the conversation, or is the "troll, troll, troll" an indication that you're trying to derail conversation?I have the same curiosity. If this is an attempt to derail the conversation ... I only write about trolls, I don't feed them.
If they're serious questions, then I'm willing to discuss them.
Funny how the powers that be on this board raise questions about my conduct. Neither of you responded to my post. You simply made veiled personal attacks at me by questioning my motives. That's an old polical trick to shift attention elsewhere.
Why not address the issue at hand? Afraid? Did I hit a nerve?
I'm not derailing this thread. I think I raised a valid point. The individual who started this thread expressed his dissappointment in where this community is headed. I simply added context to it by pointing out the truth behind the situation. Paizo is either hiding something (switching to 4.0), paralyzed by a decision they are unable to make, or lack the business sense not to upset their customers and pit them against each other.
Timeouts are the domain of the SuperNanny, not the SuperFrosty.
People vote with their dollars and Paizo, like a politician, is betting that there are more voters for 4.0. Of course, like a politician they don't want to take any criticism for holding an unpopular position with their constituents.They're a business. Do they really have any choice but to follow the revenue?
Of course they do, but WoTC doesn't have to decide it for them. There's no reason why they can't determine their own destiny.
We do not disappear posts without leaving an explanation in the thread. If posts are missing and there's no explanation, it's almost certainly one of a few known messageboard bugs which I am trying to fix.
We also do have the ability to give someone a timeout. We've used it precisely once.
[edit]Yes, on the day we started the moderation of this forum we removed a bunch of stuff from a lot of older threads and didn't leave notes, but that was mainly because there was just so much crap to deal with. Going forward our policy is to be open and always leave a note.
That's fantastic to hear, then. A couple of questions:
Why don't you use the timeout feature more? I suspect most of the posts that are vitriolic are so because the poster is writing in the heat of emotion, rather than some kind of systematic attempt to be a jerk/troll. Giving particularly "energetic" posters a timeout for a while might be an easy way to cool down heated discussions without forcing censorship.
Is there any way to collect these reasons somewhere for everyone to see? Obviously this is easier if they're tied to timeouts or bans rather than just being a mod snip in a particular thread. I bring it up because I think if there's no way to centrally look at moderator activity it makes it much harder to get a sense for where the line is. I don't read every thread, generally, so the odds are I'm going to miss someone being a jerk and getting slapped down for it.
Also, as a general note for people posting: take responsibility for your words and think before you hit that post key. Are you being a jerk? Are you responding to that other guy's points, or are you calling his mother fat (or both at the same time)? Are you angry about the person's post and that's why you're posting? If so, maybe you should cancel and step away from the thread for a while. Come back later when you've got a bit cooler head, and post then. I suspect your post will be better quality and you'll avoid seeming like a lout....
Maybe the moderators should start giving each post a rating like G, PG, PG-13, and R. That way you can filter the messages to make you feel better about yourself when you read generic posts without conviction.
[whipsers] Tim, you forgot your signature sign-off on the last few posts...[/whispers]
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Senior Software Developer
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I asked because I was genuinely curious. My presence in this forum is all about civil discussion. I have no for or against about 4th edition as I am not an avid gamer, and am not involved in the decision-making process for Paizo's products.
Putting "troll, troll, troll" at the end of a post is a red flag that tells me that maybe this person isn't serious about the ideas he's putting forth, maybe he's trying to be provocative so he can watch the flames fly. While that's not precisely verboten here, it's not behavior conducive to good conversation, and makes my spidey sense tingle.
That's why I asked if you were serious. If you left off the "troll, troll, troll" part I probably wouldn't even notice your posts. (Except for the whole "The Real Troll" thing, which also raises a (smaller) red flag.)
<---parents didn't beat him enough.
~WHAP! WHAP, Whap, Whap!~ There! Do you feel better now? ~WHAP~
It is definatly NOT Smurftacular!
Darn tootin' I have been reading your Smurfy posts!
re omlets- you forgot salsa.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Darn tootin' I have been reading your Smurfy posts!
Finally some justification... I was starting to feel dejected that noone was ever reading anything I say =)
Between being a Thread Killer (see my post here about halfway down) and people not replying to me I was beginning to feel sad. =(
re omlets- you forgot salsa.
BAH! SALSA! NO!
People vote with their dollars and Paizo, like a politician, is betting that there are more voters for 4.0. Of course, like a politician they don't want to take any criticism for holding an unpopular position with their constituents.They're a business. Do they really have any choice but to follow the revenue?
Of course they can go and follow the revenue. But I expect them to say so.
You wouldn't have this problem if you simply announced what version your future products would assume. Once that happens half the community will simply move on. If you choose 3.5, then the 4.0 lovers will move on to the WoTC board and DnDinsider. If you choose 4.0, the 3.5 fans will move on to whatever community fills that void. You can't have your cake and eat it to here. Stringing people along like you have has caused peopely to become anxious. When people get anxious they get mean and that is what has happened here.
This is a mess of your own creation. Don't blame the oommunity, blame your lack of sincerity. I am sure that you have already decided which version you are planning to go with and that the announcement has been held up so that you can sell our of the printings of material you have in inventory. You can blame WoTC for being late on releasing 4.0, but that excuse is getting old. I saw 4.0 at DnDXP and know enough to decide which version I want to support. I have a good idea of whether or not it can support your products as well.
Removing posts is like kidnapping political dissidents in the middle of the night and silencing them. This was a fairly free board until recently. Sooner or later you'll make your announcment and people will calm down. In the meantime your just going to have to live with people spewing their opinions and insulting each other in the process until you do.
Take some responsibility here. When politicians insult the community they represent they get voted out of office. Or resign like client 9.
Since he assured us that he isn't just trolling with this, could we maybe get an answer to this?
I think that not answering at all is worse than any anser. It makes people assume the worst.
If you are sore AND disappointed, you are not doing it right!
