I think this is precisely the right place for this discussion at the moment for several reasons.
I'd really prefer the website feedback forum remain a place where people can report bugs in the operation of the website itself.
oh okay. I just thought maybe it should be there since it's never really been about 4E.
Could this thread be moved to "website feedback"?I think this is precisely the right place for this discussion at the moment for several reasons.
I'd really prefer the website feedback forum remain a place where people can report bugs in the operation of the website itself.
I can see that, since this forum is really the only one that had issues (and as such, is really not an example of the messageboards as a whole). The issues were here and the people who post here should be aware.
But really, guys, we don't need much moderation. We're almost all responsible people who can control ourselves when it matters. If our posting insulting comments might reflect poorly on Paizo itself, I think it starts to matter. We know, I think, when we cross the line. Sure, it's fun to vent and go off sometimes, but we know when we do it. And we know when we shouldn't be hitting the "Submit Post" button.
I don't foresee any problems. There are some really classy people here. And if anyone that's not a regular Paizo poster should happen to read this, please understand that Paizo is a great place to hang your hat--and this is coming from a huge pro-4E poster.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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No, but it sounds fun. I'm all for it. ;) (Sorry OP)Can anyone see this thread going the way of that other thread last year (for the life of me I can't find it or remember the OP), where we all discussed the OP's post in a semi-civilised manner quite eloquently, then after about 3 pages it just degenerated into 16 pages of the best drivel I have ever seen and participated in EVER!
Man that thread was good while it lasted
I remembered what the Thread was about and found it... here is a linky
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Gary never leaves.
True story: I left work last night and Gary was in the parking garage on one of his routine thinking strolls.
I got to work this morning and Gary was still in the parking garage!!!
Seriously, he never leaves.
It is a rare day indeed when Gary's car is not there both when I arrive and when I leave.
...too bad I'm completely off topic.
Gary sleeps in his car.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Gary sleeps in his car.Gary never leaves.
True story: I left work last night and Gary was in the parking garage on one of his routine thinking strolls.
I got to work this morning and Gary was still in the parking garage!!!
Seriously, he never leaves.
It is a rare day indeed when Gary's car is not there both when I arrive and when I leave.
...too bad I'm completely off topic.
Is it a Nissan Sentra... apparently you can play D&D in them ;)
Also it sounds like the OP never bought a paizo product all through 3E, but now wants to buy 4E products from a company that hasn't decided to go with 4E, and threatening not to give possible future patronage to Paizo.I agree. It feels like some people have joined these forums in the last few months just to stir things up, on both sides of the debate, but more on the pro-4e side than not. And in doing so they reduced the enjoyment of the whole of the messageboard here.
Odd. I get the opposite impression and I have a working theory on why I get that impression.
Essentially we already know that forums like En World and WotC pretty much stifle those who are anti-4E which pretty much means that those who want to voice their displeasure have only a limited number of places they can do so and here is probably the single largest community of anti-4E posters on the net. Hence those who are not particularly happy with 4E naturally gravitate here.
I'm not really sure why pro-4E posters would show up, though Cross Wired Mind clearly has, since there is rarely much actual debate on 4E on this board. The majority of threads are actually on the topic of whether or not 4E is going to blow chunks and whether the most recent revelation from WotC regarding 4E supports or does not support that primary argument.
While nothing of this argues against civility, civility on the internet is often smothering and is then overrated. ENWorld is the best/worst example. It is always easier to be "civil" when you are "for" something. This dynamic makes it all too easy, under the cover of an enforced "civility" for the "fors" to quiet the "againsts." This is precisely what has happened on ENWorld.
Now this I agree with which is one of the reasons this part of the board is seen by many as being very negative. As a bastion of the anti-4E crowd its difficult to see how it could be any other way. Its generally difficult to say 'I think X blows chunks' in a positive fashion (though I suppose its possible).
If you wouldn't feel comfortable looking at someone face to face, in the eye, and saying it to them there, don't post it online.
If that is the measure to go by... My posts will be more "honest" to my true nature - and get a bit uglier.
I'd rather try my best to "play nice," rather than post in a manner I am comfortable with talking to people face to face, and eye to eye.
Does anyone know what happened to the members of the smurf squad who ruthlessly squished a firefight about railroading on one of the Savage Tide threads? Maybe Paizo needs a community of smurf peace-keepers who descend en masse on out-of-control-threads, thoroughly disrupting the arguements by discussing smurfy things.
Then again, I'm not sure if 'whenever a bad arguement starts on our boards it gets derailed by (mostly) happy wee blue folk' would be how Paizo might want to be represented. ;-) (Is that the knowing wink emoticon thingummy?)Edit:
Thoughts, Mr. Frost?
I believe I know the trhead your talking about, A poster showed up and complained that Savage Tide did not have big enough dungeons and he felt rail roaded.
If we are talking about this thread I have to say I felt the manner it was handled really was not in the best interests of those that were discussing Savage Tide. The OP was rather rude but, buried in there, was an interesting point on adventure design that I felt would have been worth debating. Instead the interesting points worth debating were essentially drowned out by an army of little blue guys.
Does it actually have to be said?You forgot "No Vomit Guy".I wouldn't worry about any moderation, guys. It's obviously going to be light and only in regards to the standards as listed at the top of the 4E forums.
No personal attacks against other members, companies, and messageboards.
That's a pretty simple standard to hold ourselves to. I don't think it will interfere in any way, other than that, when we get emotional, we won't be hitting the "Submit Post" button on that long rant telling off some other person for being an idiot, or whatever.
Actually, I think it does.
I never liked the idea of vomit guy myself... But it was an attempt at humor. There are comedians I don't like, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to perform. I don't get the real draw of stuff like Ren and Stimpy, Bevis and Butthead, or even Jackass... But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be shown.
I'm not really sure why pro-4E posters would show up
Because we love paizo? I've got a pile of paizo adventures I won't get to in 3.5 (guaranteed) that I want to start converting to 4E and see what other people think. I want to continue my subscriptions (to everything) from Paizo even after I abandon 3.x to play 4E (or an entirely different system, if it disappoints) entirely.
I don't want to fight about 4E. At all. I want the intelligent and cool discussions (and oh, the user created gems!) I had on the Shackled City board, but with things like 'So, in Burnt Offerings, how many goblins do you think this encounter should turn into?' and 'Are any of these areas too confined for 4E?' and 'What would be some good Golarion specific feats/powers/classes?'.
I'd love for both sides (pro/anti) to be able to just shut up about system _opinions_ and concentrate on rules discussions and using 4E with paizo products. I think that essentially won't happen until we know what Paizo is doing. I completely blame WotC for botching their handling of the GSL on getting that information... but what are we going to do?
Gary sleeps in his car.Gary never leaves.
True story: I left work last night and Gary was in the parking garage on one of his routine thinking strolls.
I got to work this morning and Gary was still in the parking garage!!!
Seriously, he never leaves.
It is a rare day indeed when Gary's car is not there both when I arrive and when I leave.
...too bad I'm completely off topic.
I new it!
My general view (and it is pretty supported by the poll) more of the Charter Subscribers and Charter Superscribers fall into the anti-4E crowd; though I haven't done any hardcore counting it's just the feel I seem to get.
Even if true I don't think it would really impact my point.
I'm not really sure why pro-4E posters would show upBecause we love paizo? I've got a pile of paizo adventures I won't get to in 3.5 (guaranteed) that I want to start converting to 4E and see what other people think. I want to continue my subscriptions (to everything) from Paizo even after I abandon 3.x to play 4E (or an entirely different system, if it disappoints) entirely.
I don't want to fight about 4E. At all. I want the intelligent and cool discussions (and oh, the user created gems!) I had on the Shackled City board, but with things like 'So, in Burnt Offerings, how many goblins do you think this encounter should turn into?' and 'Are any of these areas too confined for 4E?' and 'What would be some good Golarion specific feats/powers/classes?'.
I'd love for both sides (pro/anti) to be able to just shut up about system _opinions_ and concentrate on rules discussions and using 4E with paizo products. I think that essentially won't happen until we know what Paizo is doing. I completely blame WotC for botching their handling of the GSL on getting that information... but what are we going to do?
Oh I agree with you but its so far been essentially impossible to discuss such things here - and in truth even if it were possible we don't really have anything to discuss until the rules come out.
I know it has already been mentioned, but when I read this:
Talk about 4th Edition here. Politely.
Why do I get the Real World intro going through my head?
...when people stop being polite, and start being real.
Now I am wondering if these boards will feel real to me anymore... :-/
Does anyone know what happened to the members of the smurf squad who ruthlessly squished a firefight about railroading on one of the Savage Tide threads? Maybe Paizo needs a community of smurf peace-keepers who descend en masse on out-of-control-threads, thoroughly disrupting the arguements by discussing smurfy things.
Then again, I'm not sure if 'whenever a bad arguement starts on our boards it gets derailed by (mostly) happy wee blue folk' would be how Paizo might want to be represented. ;-) (Is that the knowing wink emoticon thingummy?)Edit:
Thoughts, Mr. Frost?
I believe I know the trhead your talking about, A poster showed up and complained that Savage Tide did not have big enough dungeons and he felt rail roaded.
If we are talking about this thread I have to say I felt the manner it was handled really was not in the best interests of those that were discussing Savage Tide. The OP was rather rude but, buried in there, was an interesting point on adventure design that I felt would have been worth debating. Instead the interesting points worth debating were essentially drowned out by an army of little blue guys.
I seem to recall that someone started another thread for the discussion of the valid points from the original.
I seem to recall that someone started another thread for the discussion of the valid points from the original.
Which did help to some extent but it still was not the best solution as the commentary then got split up among several threads and lacked coherence.
I remembered what the Thread was about and found it... here is a linkyNo, but it sounds fun. I'm all for it. ;) (Sorry OP)Can anyone see this thread going the way of that other thread last year (for the life of me I can't find it or remember the OP), where we all discussed the OP's post in a semi-civilised manner quite eloquently, then after about 3 pages it just degenerated into 16 pages of the best drivel I have ever seen and participated in EVER!
Man that thread was good while it lasted
Not the thread I was thinking of. This was a long rather pointless debate on whether or not a single word should have been used on the cover or not.
Perhaps the lack of coherence made things difficult to follow, but in another case with little or no encouragement at all several threads formed to discuss the OGL/GSL topics, because several posters felt that an aspect of the issue which was pertinent to them was not being given proper discussion on any of the threads already in existence.Which did help to some extent but it still was not the best solution as the commentary then got split up among several threads and lacked coherence.
I seem to recall that someone started another thread for the discussion of the valid points from the original.
I'm not saying that new threads should not spring up to debate relevant topics that maybe are being sidelined on an original thread.
I'm just complaining that the little blue men swarming that occasionally has taken place can drown out a belligerent poster that actually has some worthwhile points. Historically its been possible to drag even a belligerent poster into some kind of constructive debate or some less belligerent poster takes up the banner and carries the discussion forward more constructively. Hence I don't agree that such swarmings are a good policy and want to discourage the practice.
This thread is pretty seriously tl;dr, so somebody stop me if this point's already been made.
The Paizo 4e board is a flamepit, and anybody who claims otherwise is sticking their head in the sand. (Admittedly, folks around here are sufficiently intelligent and articulate that the flaming is somewhat more... subtle than you might find elsewhere.) It seems to be awfully hard to have a civil discussion about 4e with somebody who doesn't agree with you. Why is that?
There's a thing called the "console wars". It's the Blood War of video games; it's existed since time immemorial, will continue to exist until Dennis Dyack's utopian one-console future arrives, and as long as it exists nobody will ever make any real headway against their opponents. In its current iteration, it breaks down like this: You want to buy a video game console. You can buy a PS3, an X-Box 360, or a Wii. Let's say you buy a 360. Here's where this gets fun.
Owners of a console have this habit of convincing themselves that the console they bought is objectively better than the console(s) they didn't buy. It makes sense; you've spent several hundred dollars, and the last thing you want is buyer's remorse. To add to the pressure to have retroactively made the right choice, you're also gambling, because a year from now that console may be in the middle of a golden age, or it might be all but discontinued. You're now a soldier in the Microsoft Army; in forums and GameStops far and wide, you'll advocate the 360 and its accomplishments, and deride Sony and Nintendo and their systems and games. And the people who bought PS3s and Wiis are doing the exact same thing. Nobody wants to say "Well, I guess that was $400 down the drain; I should have bought a Wii."
4e has a parallel situation. People are taking sides; only one side has that financial incentive right now, but everybody wants to be right, and if you're right then that other guy is wrong and you should laugh at him because of it.
But there's another layer to this, because you can have a friendly conversation about 4e at your FLGS much more easily than you can here at the Paizo 4e boards. Why is that? Because if you're talking to somebody about 4e in some other context, you can be totally cool because there's nothing at stake. You're just talking. If that fool wants to talk his nonsense about the superior edition, sucks to his ass-mar. But if that same fool is spouting his nonsense on the Paizo boards, then by god you've gotta set him straight and shut him down right now. Why? Because Paizo hasn't decided about what edition what they're going with yet, and if you don't shut that fool up, they might listen to him. And if they listen to him, you don't get to use Paizo products in your game anymore, because they're the wrong edition.
I fail to see why people can't be both real and polite.
To steal a line from one of my favorite RPG supplements:
"Truth and peace can not live under the same roof. When one moves in, the other moves out."
Owners of a console have this habit of convincing themselves that the console they bought is objectively better than the console(s) they didn't buy. It makes sense; you've spent several hundred dollars, and the last thing you want is buyer's remorse. To add to the pressure to have retroactively made the right choice, you're also gambling, because a year from now that console may be in the middle of a golden age, or it might be all but discontinued. You're now a soldier in the Microsoft Army; in forums and GameStops far and wide, you'll advocate the 360 and its accomplishments, and deride Sony and Nintendo and their systems and games. And the people who bought PS3s and Wiis are doing the exact same thing. Nobody wants to say "Well, I guess that was $400 down the drain; I should have bought a Wii."
yup
I have made that exact same argument many many times. Things like this tend to have cult-like tendencies.
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I fail to see why people can't be both real and polite.To steal a line from one of my favorite RPG supplements:
"Truth and peace can not live under the same roof. When one moves in, the other moves out."
That’s a very poetic line (what supplement is it from by the way? It sounds familiar but I can’t place it), but that doesn’t make it true.
People should be able to tell the truth and to express themselves without resorting to rudeness. Many people can do so. Sure, there’s an art to it, it’s not always easy.
We're moderating personal attacks, attacks against other companies in the hobby industry, and insults thrown at other messageboards. If you can't talk about 4E without the above, then this isn't your messageboard.
I don't think I can be much clearer than that.
I think that the above statement is true and I'm glad that Paizo decided to implement it. I don't think it's difficult, I think we just may be out of practice.
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I haven't bothered to read the whole thread, since it is long and I'm paying for the internat access by the minute. While I think the OP raises some valid points, I think his comment that he won't buy Paizo products because some of the people on the boards are aerated about 4E is kind of stupid - Paizo products and the individuals who frequent the Paizo boards are very different things. In any case, the 4E threads are easily avoidable, as (I suspect) most of us do these days apart from a few diehards. Given that the guy has never posted before, seems unwilling to post again given the surprisingly long thread he has engendered, makes me wonder if he is some sort of highly-articulate troll, rather than a serious poster. If he is serious, then I think his position is rather silly, though as an emotional reaction it is understandable to a degree. The 4E threads can be nasty (as can some of the political rants, though mainly in the past) but he obviously hasn't bothered to look beyond them at the rest of the boards. If he had thousands of posts to his name, this would be a real shame. He just has one. So, BarelyCoherent, I suggest you might want to peruse some on the non-4E threads, which are more interesting anyway, and leave the vitriol of the 4E threads to those masochists who enjoy it. And enjoy Paizo products, which are by far the best adventures being published by anyone, anywhere.
[light hearted nonsensical quip, not intended to offend anyone]
I'm not sure that anyone around here knows for certain what the truth regarding 4E is (it not being out yet) so how come it isn't more peaceful? :)
[/light hearted nonsensical quip, not intended to offend anyone]
The truth mentioned doesn't have to be about any external source. I usually take it to mean if someone is being extraordinarily polite (peaceful), they aren't likely being honest about their feelings and opinions (truthful).
That’s a very poetic line (what supplement is it from by the way? It sounds familiar but I can’t place it), but that doesn’t make it true.
Way of the Scorpion. There are more than a couple good little truths in there.
People should be able to tell the truth and to express themselves without resorting to rudeness. Many people can do so. Sure, there’s an art to it, it’s not always easy.
Emphasis mine. Yes people should be able to. But as a sweeping generalization, people need more practice with being truthful (mostly with themselves). Until then, we get what we get.
Is this thread still going on? What for?
Let's put this in perspective for a moment: "Barely Coherent" put together a complete, edited, paragraph spaced, professional quality piece about why people shouldn't harsh on 4th edition as his one and only post. Nobody does things like that except marketing sock puppets. The Original Post is a paid advertisement from Wizards of the Coast, and to treat it as anything approaching a genuine concern or a real opinion is absurd. I've done professional writing before and I can smell it. This piece wasn't written in a BBCode edit box.
Please Do Not Feed the Net Troll!
It is exactly this sort of behavior by WotC personnel which so alienates and offends the established D&D community. When SONY or EA pays people to troll message boards it's offensive and annoying, but it's expected. Now that we've seen that we can suddenly expect this sort of behavior from WotC as well we are hurt. But we've already seen it with the earlier revelation that a bunch of the people like Mousferatu who were spamming optimism for 4e were in fact secretly playtesters and freelancers working on the project.
The memetic warfare is on in full force, don't believe the hype.
-Frank
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Is this thread still going on? What for?
Let's put this in perspective for a moment: "Barely Coherent" put together a complete, edited, paragraph spaced, professional quality piece about why people shouldn't harsh on 4th edition as his one and only post. Nobody does things like that except marketing sock puppets. The Original Post is a paid advertisement from Wizards of the Coast, and to treat it as anything approaching a genuine concern or a real opinion is absurd. I've done professional writing before and I can smell it. This piece wasn't written in a BBCode edit box.
Please Do Not Feed the Net Troll!
It is exactly this sort of behavior by WotC personnel which so alienates and offends the established D&D community. When SONY or EA pays people to troll message boards it's offensive and annoying, but it's expected. Now that we've seen that we can suddenly expect this sort of behavior from WotC as well we are hurt. But we've already seen it with the earlier revelation that a bunch of the people like Mousferatu who were spamming optimism for 4e were in fact secretly playtesters and freelancers working on the project.
The memetic warfare is on in full force, don't believe the hype.
-Frank
As some others have most reasonably posted, let's refrain from disparaging statements about other companies, especially when you have no proof of the accusations you are making. And maybe we should try to refrain from using the term troll to refer to other posters.
Is this thread still going on? What for?
Let's put this in perspective for a moment: "Barely Coherent" put together a complete, edited, paragraph spaced, professional quality piece about why people shouldn't harsh on 4th edition as his one and only post. Nobody does things like that except marketing sock puppets.
This part of Frank's post is worth considering, IMO. The rest does nothing for me.
This piece wasn't written in a BBCode edit box.
I don't really see how this is proof of anything. If I really want to make a point and come off sounding authoritative there is a pretty good chance I do my post in Open Office before cutting and pasting it. As of yet WotC has not seen fit to send me money.
This part of Frank's post is worth considering, IMO. The rest does nothing for me.
This rests on the assumption that there could not possibly be anyone out there that cared enough about 4E to go through the effort of making an articulate post unless WotC was paying for it. I think this is a flawed assumption.
There are 39 subforums on these messageboards. People come here and enjoy the friendly banter that only exists among RPG enthusiasts - and the nicest people on the internet. The 4E forums here, like EVERY OTHER forums where 4E discussions take place, are filled with impassioned people that care about their game and don't always know the diplomatic way to speak their minds or to allow someone else to have an opinion different than their's. And some of the posters there are just straight up A-Holes or Trolls.
Unlike other forums, Paizo has always fostered an atmosphere of freely expressing yourself, and only step in to either delete a post or give a warning when things turn really, really ugly.
Paizo is a small company who work their ass off to provide the highest quality products you can buy for the money. Their customer service is second to NONE, us writers are only a post or two away to help out when you need to know what the heck we were thinking when we wrote something or to provide some advice on handling posters' campaign specific dilemmas or to help make changes so our modules will work best for each individual GM. And where else does the CEO, the Editors, the Publisher, and the rest of the company staff regularly come to these boards to chat with their customers and potential customers?
Again, let me remind you that Paizo is a small, hardworking company. They simply don't have the time or staff to sit here and babysit these forums to make sure everyone is playing nice. That's what we the community are here to do and we've done so very well for a very long time.
If you found some ugly posts you didn't care for in the 4E forums, then simply don't go there. THERE ARE 38 OTHER SUBFORUMS FOR CHATTING WITH PEOPLE IN A MUCH FRIENDLIER ENVIRONMENT.
To hold Paizo responsible for what people come here and post and coming here to say that you won't be buying their products because of the same reason is something you really need to sit down and reconsider a second or third time because it's very, very...
QFT
Stefan
This rests on the assumption that there could not possibly be anyone out there that cared enough about 4E to go through the effort of making an articulate post unless WotC was paying for it. I think this is a flawed assumption.
This part of Frank's post is worth considering, IMO. The rest does nothing for me.
I am not assuming this post is for any particular purpose, and I did not say it was paid for by WotC, Frank did. Theoretically speaking, someone on Paizo staff who wants Paizo to begin moderating might have written it. I'm not saying I believe that, but I believe Frank's observation that the style of this post smacks of PR manipulation is a fair observation, be it correct or not.
The OP only posted once, doesn't have a sub.... who is he?
I really don't care brother, I'm just saying.
Agreed. I'm gone, dude.
Don't worry too much about this. We don't care if someone says "this game is terrible" or "this game is awesome", as long as they provide some context other than insults, references to bodily fluids, rape, violence, nazis, etc.
So I can't say "This 4e made me so angry I went out, beat up a nazi, raped him and then peed on him while calling him names!" ?
Should I go apologise?
The Original Post is a paid advertisement from Wizards of the Coast, and to treat it as anything approaching a genuine concern or a real opinion is absurd. I've done professional writing before and I can smell it. This piece wasn't written in a BBCode edit box.
Please Do Not Feed the Net Troll!
It is exactly this sort of behavior by WotC personnel which so alienates and offends the established D&D community. When SONY or EA pays people to troll message boards it's offensive and annoying, but it's expected. Now that we've seen that we can suddenly expect this sort of behavior from WotC as well we are hurt. But we've already seen it with the earlier revelation that a bunch of the people like Mousferatu who were spamming optimism for 4e were in fact secretly playtesters and freelancers working on the project.
The memetic warfare is on in full force, don't believe the hype.
I must agree to some degree. The post smells funny.
Gary never leaves.
True story: I left work last night and Gary was in the parking garage on one of his routine thinking strolls.
I got to work this morning and Gary was still in the parking garage!!!
Seriously, he never leaves.
It is a rare day indeed when Gary's car is not there both when I arrive and when I leave.
...too bad I'm completely off topic.
So this is the sort of moderation we're going to see here? Whenever you see something you don't like, the whole Paizo staff and all freelancers pile in here and drown out the original conversation with stories like these?
That's deplorable! ;-P
Way of the Scorpion. There are more than a couple good little truths in there.
Wrapped into a ton of lies, just as it behaves for the Underhand.
Let's put this in perspective for a moment: "Barely Coherent" put together a complete, edited, paragraph spaced, professional quality piece about why people shouldn't harsh on 4th edition as his one and only post. Nobody does things like that except marketing sock puppets. [remaineder of post snipped for space.]
-Frank
Frank, do you realize that you are just proving the OP right? This is exactly the kind of attack he's talking about.
You aren't adding to the depth of the discussion with this post, you're just making unfounded accusastions about the OP, attacking both him and WotC. You're accusing them both of extreamly unethical behavior, with absolutly no eveidence what so ever.
And why? Because the post was well written? How many people on this board write for a living? Should we discount them as well?
Because he typed it up in word first? I woudl bet many of the posts on this board are written in something other then the BBcode box. People don't like losing their posts do to forum hickups. That does not mean they are corprate espionage.
Post count? He says in the post he is new to Paizo. That was the point of his post, the content of the 4E boards surprised him as a new potential customer, and turned him off the website in general. Even if you don't beleive his story, he could also be a regular forum user posting under another screen name so that he doesn't get flamed to death under his regular name.
One way or another, his points are valid. The tone of this subboard is way, way below the rest of Paizo's forums. But because 4th Edition is the next big thing, anyone looking for infomation about it and new Paizo products will come here and read these threads, and they do not give people a good impression of Paizo.
Your accusations on the other hand are completely unsupported.
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Frank, do you realize that you are just proving the OP right? This is exactly the kind of attack he's talking about.
You aren't adding to the depth of the discussion with this post, you're just making unfounded accusastions about the OP, attacking both him and WotC. You're accusing them both of extreamly unethical behavior, with absolutly no eveidence what so ever.
This is exactly what I was afraid of what would happen when the hue and cry concerning this issue went up yesterday. I have been posting on the internet before there was an internet (remember the BBB days?) and I have seen this sort of self-defeating behavior many times before. First, a vocal minority complains that they feel threatened or worse yet insulted (gasp!) by a point of view. Complaints are raised and because of our (well the US's) extreme issues of sensitivity to all insults, real or imagined, policies are put in place to try and please everyone. And then more complaints are raised, as Teiran does here, that have no real basis. How is Frank personally attacking anyone with this post? He is stating what he believes is the case and references that WotC has had well-publicized cases of trying to manipulate perception about 4e. No one is being personally attacked. Saying that the post may be the result of a marketing sock puppet attacks no one, you simply do not like the message. It is a valid point and one that more than just Frank shares.
As an aside, I didn't think it was marketing ploy, but whatever. I am glad the issue was raised though because to think that it doesn't happen is foolish to me. In fact WotC clearly has used their forums and partial wavers to their NDA to inaccurately portray the true thoughts of the community concerning 4e. Thus on this basis alone, Frank's post is viable, even if you found it otherwise.
What is this place becoming?
What is this place becoming?
It is becoming like almost every other place on the internet.
Sanitized.
The stark white background has new meaning now.
I would add more... But I get the feeling the Paizo forums isn't the place to discuss it.
What is this place becoming?
A forum full of self-appointed moderators?
Oops..was that an insult? I'm not sure anymore.
I'm actually surprised so many of you aren't smelling a tinge of fish on the air. I'm not saying there are fish... I'm just saying there is evidence of the possibility of fish.
The OP's very first, only, and untended post looked more professional than any post I've ever seen by anyone on Paizo. I am so willing to entertain cynical theories.
If the OP continues for at least a month to post replies rather than just OPing, continues to post with consummate quality, and posts to threads not involving behavior modification in regards to 4e discussion (a topical generator of much propaganda on both sides of the issue), then we have our new resident novelist. Conspiracy theories' inherent, irrational weakness is the way they fill in blanks with absolute and unproveable answers--so I won't fill blanks, but if the above actions don't take place I'd condider the possibly a sock puppet of some type. People really do create and use sock puppet folks. It happens every day.
So, OP, come back here and defend your brilliance! ;)