[Sajan is] the iconic monk. He'll show up in Pathfinder 13, I suspect, along with the iconic barbarian, the iconic druid, and the iconic mystery character whose role has yet to be announced.
Well, as a party of four that group wll be almost unplayable without an arcanist-type for group smackdown and utility magic. However, all the core arcanist classes are already accounted for. Could be
Paizo thinking of adding its own arcanist-type core class?We currently know the races of 10 of the 12 iconics announced so far. The only OGL PC races not represented are gnome, half-elf and half-orc.
I think half-orcs will be represented for their badass appeal to cover art, but they suck at classes requiring intelligence or charisma, so its more likely that the racially-unidentified druid iconic will be a half-orc.
Both gnomes and half-elves make solid arcanists. Half-elves make for sexier cover art, but I'm going to place my bet on 12 being a gnome. Paizo has already promised that even if it switches to 4th Ed it will introduce its own mods for PC gnomes, suggesting specific plans. Further, the have more of their own flavor and are preferred for arcane characters over half-elves by character optimizers, who see half-elves as being the most combat-weak race.
My bet is that 12 will be a gnome arcanist in a new core class Paizo introduces.
Half. Orc. Psion.
Frag sexy. If I want sexy, I'll look at my wife. I'm not going to get into the "You need classes A, B, C, and D or else you can't play" arguement, but in all honesty, I hope Paizo rocks the boat by making the mystery iconic something truly special and not a "He's here to fill [Blah] spot".
The 12th Iconic should be evil!
This is partially an easter egg reference to Dr. Who, who has 12 Incarnations (regenerations), and according to one special episode, I think the 12th was supposed to be evil...
The Druid will be a gnome, James Jacobs himself said it somewhere I believe, I saw it coming too, a druid really sets their whole nature and the fey theme so well in Golarion, and thats what the iconics have done so far, established the tone and flavour of their race/country/class.
Also I wouldn't bet on half-orcs, again its been said there won't be any and JJ himself doesn't like them, nor do they sell covers stupendously well. Thoguh it'd hard to resist anything Wayne Reynolds has drawn.
My money is on a cleric of a wildly different, maybe evil or dodgy faith, or a specialist wizard, maybe a conjurer, that'd be cool, probably not an evoker, as Seoni is themed towards flashy evocation magic.
EDIT: Oh and the 12th will almost certainly be human, Golarion is human dominated, very much so, and neither of the half-breed races are very common or particularly iconic as far as the world goes.
I thought I heard one of the iconics was a Female Gnome Druid.
There are 11 classes in the PHB right? So the 12th iconic is going to have to be a repeat or a new class Paizo has up its sleeve.
Im guessing you are right about the need for an arcane caster to create a nice balance. Baybe the 12 class is a Wizard Specialist.
I vote for a human Swordsage.
I vote for a human Swordsage.
I don't think they are OGL content.
I vote for a female dwarf sorcerer. She and Merisiel can hang out and trade stories.
I vote for a human Swordsage.I don't think they are OGL content.
I know they're not OGL. I still want one though...
The Druid will be a gnome, James Jacobs himself said it somewhere I believe, I saw it coming too, a druid really sets their whole nature and the fey theme so well in Golarion, and thats what the iconics have done so far, established the tone and flavour of their race/country/class.
Also I wouldn't bet on half-orcs, again its been said there won't be any and JJ himself doesn't like them, nor do they sell covers stupendously well. Thoguh it'd hard to resist anything Wayne Reynolds has drawn.
My money is on a cleric of a wildly different, maybe evil or dodgy faith, or a specialist wizard, maybe a conjurer, that'd be cool, probably not an evoker, as Seoni is themed towards flashy evocation magic.
EDIT: Oh and the 12th will almost certainly be human, Golarion is human dominated, very much so, and neither of the half-breed races are very common or particularly iconic as far as the world goes.
Assuming the druid is a gnome and there won't be any half-orcs, then Twelve will probably be a half-elf or newly introduced race. If human, then eight of the twelve iconics will be human, which I find unlikely.
I find it exceedingly unlikely that the four pregen PCs for a fifteen level Adventure Path would go through the whole campaign unable to cast any arcane magic or something very similar.
The 12th Iconic should be evil!
This is partially an easter egg reference to Dr. Who, who has 12 Incarnations (regenerations), and according to one special episode, I think the 12th was supposed to be evil...
The Valeyard, do you mean, Watcher?
Sounds about right!
The 12th Icon should be an evil hellknight, more dedicated to law than evil...
And they can usher in a new starting hellknight character class!
Creative Director
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I find it exceedingly unlikely that the four pregen PCs for a fifteen level Adventure Path would go through the whole campaign unable to cast any arcane magic or something very similar.
I've actually seen plenty of groups do fine without arcane casters. They're not as critical as most people seem to think. That, combined with the fact that we don't necessarily build our iconics to match specific adventure paths or to build specific parties (for AP4 we'll probably mix it up even more; that AP's group could well be Seoni, Ezren, Lem, and Sajan, for example), means that we don't necessarily HAVE to have an arcane caster for the 12th spot.
**Stuff that made me happy**
Woo! Let's hear it for non-traditional party dynamics! "Roles" suck anyway... ;-)
There's plenty of usable material out there.
And they could introduce one class that isn't quite used yet: specialist wizard. Maybe an a runelord's apprentice woke up from 10.000-year-long stasis and trying to cope with this world.
There's plenty of usable material out there.
And they could introduce one class that isn't quite used yet: specialist wizard. Maybe an a runelord's apprentice woke up from 10.000-year-long stasis and trying to cope with this world.
Or a dwarven MageSmith!
Oh, that's right... J.J. is exnay on the dwarf-ay.
a Psion would be cool but with no mention of Psionics anywhere i can find i find it hard to imagine that they would add one.
It would kind of be like adding it "Because we can" and not in character to the world.
a Psion would be cool but with no mention of Psionics anywhere i can find i find it hard to imagine that they would add one.
It would kind of be like adding it "Because we can" and not in character to the world.
Not quite!
:D
Per Mighty Mike McArtor, the hardback Campaign Setting will have a Psionic Spread to help with psionic PCs!
Aboleths deep under the sea are psionic!
The Darklands are haunted and hunted by Intellect Devourers (though they may not be a featured villain in Second Darkness)
We've been told that the setting may never be dripping with psionics, but there will be a place for it.
Too bad there is no love for the half-orc. A half-orc psion would be pretty cool, I believe that something like:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rod_gallery/86340.jpg
Would sell as many copies as something with a picture of an old guy that looks like a cross between Kris Kristofferson (sp?) and Sean Connery.
I've actually seen plenty of groups do fine without arcane casters. They're not as critical as most people seem to think.
Really? My experience has been different.
That, combined with the fact that we don't necessarily build our iconics to match specific adventure paths or to build specific parties (for AP4 we'll probably mix it up even more; that AP's group could well be Seoni, Ezren, Lem, and Sajan, for example), means that we don't necessarily HAVE to have an arcane caster for the 12th spot.
Your party compositions in the first two APs suggest that you have been intentionally party building.
Valeros - Seoni - Kyra - Merisiel (Tank-Arcanist-Healer-Skillmaster) could only be a more traditional composition if Seoni had been a wizard instead of a sorceror.
Seelah - Ezren - Karsh - Lem is less usual, but still a balanced party. You've got a clearcut arcanist and a tank, two skillmasters, and healing duties split between three characters with cure spells on their class spell lists. A tough slog for the first level or two , but once they can afford healing spell trigger items they should do well in a variety of situations.
Sajan - "Brunette Sonja" - Gnome Druid has a healer, a skillmaster, and a tank -- and all three should be solid melee combatants. What they don't have is arcane magic or a solid ranged combatant. If it were in the OGL a warlock would be the perfect fourth for this group.
While you could certainly throw your iconics together randomly, many combinations would be horrible -- your example of Seoni, Ezren, Lem and Sajan, for instance, would be abysmal at low levels.
Here is the breakdown so far of what we have. I hope I didn't miss any of them, or mislabel the names.
In all, I think this is a good looking group of iconics. I wouldn't be surprised if the 12th were an OGL Psion, or something Paizo creates just for Golarion, like a Hellknight core class, or Pathfinder core class.
- 1 Barbarian "BigSword" Human F
- 2 Bard Lem Halfling M
- 3 Cleric Kyra Human F
- 4 Druid "??" ??Gnome ?
- 5 Fighter Valeros Human M
- 6 Monk Sajan Human M
- 7 Paladin Seelah Human F
- 8 Ranger Karsh Dwarf M
- 9 Rogue Merisiel Elf F
- 10 Sorcerer Seoni Human F
- 11 Wizard Ezren Human M
- 12 Mysterio ?? ?? ?
1st AP
Fighter, Rogue, Sorcerer, Cleric
2nd AP
Wizard, Bard, Paladin, Ranger
3rd AP
Barbarian, Druid, Monk, ???
Males: 5
Females: 5
??: 2
Human 7
Halfling 1
Gnome ?1?
Elf 1
Dwarf 1
Half-Elf 0
Half-Orc 0
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I don't think we'll see a Half-XXX as an Iconic for Golarion, leaving Mysterio up in the air. If the goal is balance between Males and Females and 1 representative of each full-blooded OGL race, the Druid should be a gnome female, and Mysterio a human male.
I'm not advocating that there has to be 6/6 male/female balance, but that is what it looks like right now.
If they would do a poll, I would vote for a Psion personally. "Refugee from the Green Planet", commoner that touched a meteor rock or someone with Aboleth DNA from the big cataclysm that sank Thassilon.... no matter how they become Psionic, they are the Iconic "Other".
"Reycon the human male Psion"
The male female spilt will indeed be 6/6. It's been said already on the boards. I wouldn't bet on a psionic iconic. I reckon it'll be a completely different take on another of the 11 core classes. Psionics are in Golarion as an option, certainly, but not Iconic of the setting.
If they would do a poll, I would vote for a Psion personally.I would hope to be able to use all of the iconics in my game. No psions, swordsages, warlocks etc. need apply.
Since Psions are in the SRD, they could apply even if they are rejected. ;) The swordsages, warlocks are all WoTCs bag, so you have no worries there.
I'd personally like to see a Psion. I might not be Psionics biggest fan (mostly because the Psionics/magic transparency needed to make the game actually go isn't very flavorful), but it'd make for a good 12th iconic.
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I've actually seen plenty of groups do fine without arcane casters. They're not as critical as most people seem to think.Really? My experience has been different.
well... in that vein, my group completed AOW with one death, with a party consisting of : Ranger(bow) Fighter Thief Cleric and Monk ...For the slaughterhouse that AP is if a party that low in spell casting means that they can survive anything if they know when they need to buy consumables like scrolls and potions
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Creative Director
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Your party compositions in the first two APs suggest that you have been intentionally party building.
That's more of a result of us wanting to get the four "classic" roles done with first. For Runelords, that meant the classic fighter/cleric/thief/magic user route. For the second set of four, we sort of did the same thing, but by the time we get to the third, it's really NOT a classic party (barbarian, druid, monk, XXX). But there's not much we can do about that, since we need all 12 iconics. And once we get to AP4, we'll have all 12, in which case picking the best four for the path will be an option. Right now, that's not an option.
That's more of a result of us wanting to get the four "classic" roles done with first. For Runelords, that meant the classic fighter/cleric/thief/magic user route. For the second set of four, we sort of did the same thing, but by the time we get to the third, it's really NOT a classic party (barbarian, druid, monk, XXX). But there's not much we can do about that, since we need all 12 iconics. And once we get to AP4, we'll have all 12, in which case picking the best four for the path will be an option. Right now, that's not an option.
How is this not intentional party building? You guys intentionally designed two parties based on the 'classic' model, but you didn't intentionally design them? I'm confused by what you are saying.
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How is this not intentional party building? You guys intentionally designed two parties based on the 'classic' model, but you didn't intentionally design them? I'm confused by what you are saying.
He's saying that they did them as individuals, and not "We need to fill this role to get past this encounter of PF# X easier."
