This is a question that’s been haunting me recently. While the flavor text of the sorcerer mentions a heritage that grants them their power, and their ability to spontaneously cast magic hints at it, I’m wondering exactly what that heritage really grants.
They still follow the same spell “formulas” as wizards, right? Other than not having to prepare a spell from a spellbook, sorcerers still use all the same spell components and their spells have the same effect as the wizard spells. They’re completely identical.
Is “not having to read a book” really something that comes from dragon-blood?
They can get heritage feats...dragons give feats? I would give them heritage feats where the wizard gets his bonus feats.
Sorry only thing I can think of.
Fizz
It can come from dragon-blood, yes, but also from celestial, fiendish, or elemental blood. The idea is that by being descended from a magical creature, magic becomes instinctive.
Sorcery can also mean other things, like a pact with a fiend for power.
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There's an undercurrent through medieval heroic fantasy that heritage / bloodline / genetics / whatever confer authority and power.
- Artus could pull Excaliber from the stone because he was rightful king of England, but that in turn was because of his bloodline.
- Cúchulainn is not only reared by the greatest warrior, the greatest poet, the most eloquent bard, and so on, he is also the son of the God Lugh.
- Tolkein had greater and lesser races of Man. The Numenoreans are just better people than the folk of Harad, because of their ancestors.
There are other tropes through heroic literature. Perhaps a charactr is a sorcerer because of a pact his mother signed at the hour of his birth, or because of a childhood run-in with the supernatural, or because of an astrological portent. (Wouldn't it be interesting if everyone born on a particular day twnty years ago were able to manifest sorcerous powers?)
It can come from dragon-blood, yes, but also from celestial, fiendish, or elemental blood. The idea is that by being descended from a magical creature, magic becomes instinctive.
Sorcery can also mean other things, like a pact with a fiend for power.
Exactly. I did a complete rewrite of the sorcerer class that is a pretty balanced mix that incorporates spell points, the warlock's eldritch blast, 11 different ancestry options, and the dragon disciple-esque 20th level capstone of "you get a free template". I haven't got a chance to use it just yet, but I REALLY want to... [/self_aggrandizing_threadjack]
The source of power of the sorcerer can be from his heritage (celestial, demonic, draconic, elemental, fey, planar...), but it can also be cultural (race, civilization, pacts) or environmental (setting, specific conditions).
If an arcane spellcaster is living away from civilization, in a remote place or in the wild, then it makes more sense for him to be a sorcerer than a wizard. You can compare him to a druid (nature) rather than a cleric (temple).
He might actually need to be in a specific environment to access his spells.
Or he might use some exotic rituals to cast his spells, like meditation, trance, drugs, special components, amulets, talismans, sacrifices, contact with spirits and so on.
Basically, if the arcane caster is following traditional and academic ways, through guilds, mentors and libraries, that's a mage.
If he's following his instincts and learning on his own, or using magic in a "weird" way, that's a sorcerer.
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Sorry if this isn't what the thrust of your question is about, Fletch, but this is the way I look at the role of sorcerers...
The Sorcerer class is there as a way of representing a spellcaster present in mythology and folklore, but not as strongly represented in RPGs... the spellcaster who has is born to magic, who commands the forces of magic by virtue of who he is, not what he's read and studied.
Whether you're born the 7th son of a 7th son (or 8th of an 8th in Diskworld), or if you have a dragon in the woodpile, or if your birth was midwifed by some fey critter in a sylvan glenn, it suggests you are claiming your power by unlocking it from within. You don't have to spend years of intensive study locked in some tower filled with dusty librams, you need to be out testing yourself so that you can pull the power out of your very bones. You don't need to research the mysteries of the multiverse, you ARE one of the mysteries!
More than just not having to read a book, a sorcerers spells are permenantly ingrained into the brain. Thus they may cast them again and again and again.
So it’s not the spell ability that’s stapled to their genes, it’s the spell formula? It makes more sense when you look at it that way.
I was looking at sorcerers as being able to do what wizards can do but without the book. Seen from the other direction, you could say wizards need a book to do what sorcerers do. Almost as if, many many years back, non-magically inclined peoples saw what sorcerers were doing and did some research to find out how they could do it to.
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Almost as if, many many years back, non-magically inclined peoples saw what sorcerers were doing and did some research to find out how they could do it to.
I think that this could be an entierly valid way to view it in a campaign! I actually like that quite a lot, may not play in every setting, but it's a neat idea!
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The dragons were first. They were magic incarnate, casting spells instinctively. The elves, coming later, saw the magic of the dragons and studied it, eventually mastering the complex energies. Thus Dragons were the first sorcerers. Elves were the first wizards.
Humanity has learned the art of magic from the elves. But a rare few are born with draconic blood and find themselves able to tap into these energies like the magical beings they are descended from.
IIRC that is basically the Kingdom of Kalamar take.
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That seems like an entirely logical way to take it. Certain beings can just naturally channel magical energies, and as a result of some dragon out for a booty call thousands of years ago, certain people can channel that energy as well. Other people wanted this power, and they found that they could accomplish it through study and hard work.
That's how I see it, but I would say that it was so long ago that no one really knows the origins of wizardry, so everything is speculation
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This is a question that’s been haunting me recently. While the flavor text of the sorcerer mentions a heritage that grants them their power, and their ability to spontaneously cast magic hints at it, I’m wondering exactly what that heritage really grants.
They still follow the same spell “formulas” as wizards, right? Other than not having to prepare a spell from a spellbook, sorcerers still use all the same spell components and their spells have the same effect as the wizard spells. They’re completely identical.
Is “not having to read a book” really something that comes from dragon-blood?
Players Handbook 3.5 quote
Sorcerers create magic the
way a poet creates poems, with
inborn talent honed by
practice. They have no books, no
mentors, no theories—just raw
power that they direct at will.
Some sorcerers claim that the blood
of dragons courses through their veins.
That claim may even be true in some
cases—it is common knowledge that certain
powerful dragons can take humanoid form and
even have humanoid lovers, and it’s difficult
to prove that a given sorcerer does not have
a dragon ancestor. It’s true that sorcerers
often have striking good looks, usually
with a touch of the exotic that hints
at an unusual heritage. Others
hold that the claim is either an
unsubstantiated boast on the
part of certain sorcerers or
envious gossip on the
part of those who lack
the sorcerer’s gift.
Arcane Spells;
Like it says in the book the sorcerers have in born power which surges through their family lines which could hint to some breeding nature. Now depending on the DM and their preference they can claim that the family line has hints of Fey, Dragon, or any other spell casting race.
The way that I describe Arcane is to refer it like a living organism, something that can be controlled and manipulated. The PHB refers to it as a gift; something not all can do so naturally. This means that a person can control these abilities that flow through them with basic natural knowledge, like the way a bird knows to flap their wings not to fall, they learn as they grow.
Wizard vs Sorcerer
A Wizard a mimic to a Sorcerer, studying in replace of natural talent. The spells require the components to create that effect, or to focus the needed energy. So to cast these spells that is what is required no mater if you are a Wizard or a Sorcerer. Now with the talent you can justify it by stating that the wizards learn what natural knowledge to a Sorcerer is. It is possible for anyone in D&D to do magic if they understand the ways of using/ manipulating the arcane.
I don't see it as spell formulae at all. That's what wizards use. A wizard pours over a book, using advanced calculations and theorums and organized bodies of knowledge to unlock the mysteries of the arcane. Wizard spells may well read like chemical or mathematical equations, their written rituals may look like schematics and blueprints for architectural and engineering projects. They are ordered, almost scientific in their notation and approach.
Then there is the sorcerer. Unlike the wizard's carefully formulated fireball, the sorcerer just sucks up a glowing ball of power from the world around him and throws it at you. The wizard reads his careful equation for verbal components. The sorcerer's words are totally different, and he didn't learn the phrases so much as discover them in his mind one day. Though they speak in a strange language, the wizard effectively says "Now casting: fireball; Final phrase: one mole of bat guano reacts with one mole of sulfur to yield one spell of fireball; coordinates: X- 35, Y- 52, Z- 29." The sorcerer, also speaking in that odd language, just says "Gimme some fire!" He's discovered, felt in his bones and his heart, the power that burns within bat crap and he wrenches it out by pure force of will.
Further, the standard description of spellcasting and spell preparation shows that a wizard actually takes minutes upon minutes to cast a single spell. They simply arrive at a breaking point, which they stop at and save the final trigger until later. A sorcerer, on the other hand, does not go through that preparation. Their entire spellcasting process takes but a smattering of seconds. They don't use the same spell activation sequence as a wizard; they don't use an activation sequence at all.
The point being that, even though game-mechanic-wise, a fireball is a fireball no matter who casts it and it always does the same thing, in-game there is a huge difference between how a sorcerer goes about the casting and how a wizard goes about the casting. They do not use the same words, gestures, or processes; the sorcerer doesn't just know how to do what a wizard does, sans the book. The end result is the same, but the route is totally different. And this difference in style, or rather the ability to ustilize it, is passed down through bloodlines.
Exactly. I did a complete rewrite of the sorcerer class that is a pretty balanced mix that incorporates spell points, the warlock's eldritch blast, 11 different ancestry options, and the dragon disciple-esque 20th level capstone of "you get a free template". I haven't got a chance to use it just yet, but I REALLY want to... [/self_aggrandizing_threadjack]
I'm interested in your rewrite, since I just did an alternate magic system of my own.
Saern: You may be interested in my magic system. Linky
Unlike the wizard's carefully formulated fireball, the sorcerer just sucks up a glowing ball of power from the world around him and throws it at you.
You’ve hit on exactly the reason that I’ve been pondering the difference. There’s this assumption that sorcerers just pull magic out of the air, but in practice they’re still using all the mumbo jumbo that wizards are. You can argue that the words or gestures aren’t the same, but they’re still using words and gestures.
I do, however, like your take on the spell trigger. I’ve seen it before and appreciate the concept that a wizard studying a spell is actually “pre-casting” it for later activation. Perhaps a good compromise here is to say that that “pre-casting” is actually the summoning of thaumaturgic energy (or something equally nerdy) that they can then apply to the spell when they cast it. While it can take up to 15 minutes for a wizard to summon this energy (the longest it will take for a wizard to memorize a spell according to the PHB), the sorcerer’s genes/blood/pact/whatever give him a ready supply of this thaumaturgia. PLUS, the sorcerer doesn’t have to ‘key’ the energy to a specific spell when he channels it like a wizard does.
So while both the wizard and the sorcerer can know a spell’s formula (ie gestures and components and what not), it’s how they gather the spell energy that separates them. Hell, by this rational, even the common fighter could understand a spell formula, but without the ability to gather the energy, it doesn’t do him any good.
A sorcerer's abilities, then, come not from inherent knowledge of a spell, just a ready pool of spell energy. He'd still have to learn the "formula" and use it to cast the spell.
To continue, then, the idea that wizards are just trying to emulate sorcerers, I can see an ancient wannabe saying “hey, I’ve done all the chanting and hand waving, how come my fur and amber rod aren’t shooting out lightning?” and the sorcerer would say “well, did you tap your inner well of thaumaturgic energy?”
And the wannabe wizard would go “The what, now?”
Exactly. I did a complete rewrite of the sorcerer class that is a pretty balanced mix that incorporates spell points, the warlock's eldritch blast, 11 different ancestry options, and the dragon disciple-esque 20th level capstone of "you get a free template". I haven't got a chance to use it just yet, but I REALLY want to... [/self_aggrandizing_threadjack]I'm interested in your rewrite, since I just did an alternate magic system of my own.
Ross, shoot me an e-mail: SprAmazd@yahoo.com
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The power comes from the sorcerers' Midichlorian count!
(kidding)
[on topic]
I thought the book Johnathan Strange and Mr. Norrell had a great depiction of the differences and dissensions between innate (sorcerers) and hermetic (wizards) magic.
Hell, by this rational, even the common fighter could understand a spell formula, but without the ability to gather the energy, it doesn’t do him any good.
You mean like a fighter with cross-class ranks in Spellcraft?
You mean like a fighter with cross-class ranks in Spellcraft?
Or Knowledge (Arcana).
You mean like a fighter with cross-class ranks in Spellcraft?Or Knowledge (Arcana).
Hey, yeah. Sharp catch, you two.
That'd be great if the figher was all "hey, that looks like a sleep spell he's casting" and the sorcerer went all "what? [counterspell]"
You can argue that the words or gestures aren’t the same, but they’re still using words and gestures.
So? No offense, but I'm not sure why this is a sticking point. Professors of the Humanities and the Sciences both conduct research and write papers which adhere to scholarly procedures and requirements; yet the Humanities and Sciences remain totally different approaches to knowledge. A musician without any formal schooling still reads music with the same bars and notes as a Juliard graduate.
What is it about sorcerers having to gesticulate and speak in certain ways that is aesthetically displeasing to you? Perhaps answering that question will provide you with more satisfying results.
What is it about sorcerers having to gesticulate and speak in certain ways that is aesthetically displeasing to you?
Nope, I'm good now. I'm not sure I buy the professors analogy, but talking it out here has helped me see that I was looking at it from the wrong direction.
That'd be great if the figher was all "hey, that looks like a sleep spell he's casting" and the sorcerer went all "what? [counterspell]"
That'd be awesome.
Here's the obvious answer.
Sorcery came first. Wizardry is just an attempt by non-sorcerers to imitate arcane casting through lengthy study.
Because wizardly spellcasting mimics that of sorcerers, almost any spell developed by a wizard can theoretically be "learned" by a sorcerer and vice versa.
In almost every fantasy world, the ability to use magic is uncommon. There are a few frequently used explanations for people to be able to use magic: divine/supernatural gift, innate ability, and study. The sorcerer could just as easily be caster who gains the ability to cast spells through a pact with an elemental, fey, or outsider (which could also be used to thematically alter the available spell list) as one with an genetic tie to dragons, dieties, giants, etc.
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Saern, I do believe that they use the same words and gestures, otherwise it would be impossible to identify the spells being cast by a sorcerer. It's true that they have a natural gift for magic, but I think they have to follow the same rules as everyone else. Wizards learn the the ways to cast spells, Sorcerers instinctively know it. You could never tell a wizard casting a spell from a sorcerer casting a spell unless you saw the wizards spell book.
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In almost every fantasy world, the ability to use magic is uncommon. There are a few frequently used explanations for people to be able to use magic: divine/supernatural gift, innate ability, and study. The sorcerer could just as easily be caster who gains the ability to cast spells through a pact with an elemental, fey, or outsider (which could also be used to thematically alter the available spell list) as one with an genetic tie to dragons, dieties, giants, etc.
See the warlock class
Saern, I do believe that they use the same words and gestures, otherwise it would be impossible to identify the spells being cast by a sorcerer. It's true that they have a natural gift for magic, but I think they have to follow the same rules as everyone else. Wizards learn the the ways to cast spells, Sorcerers instinctively know it. You could never tell a wizard casting a spell from a sorcerer casting a spell unless you saw the wizards spell book.
They follow the same laws of magic and spellcraft, thus Spellcraft identifying the spell, but that doesn't mean they carbon copy each other.
Also, some people don't use Warlocks. Before Warlock was printed, that Achetype went to sorcerors, can still be decided to gain their power from things that are not fiends.
Saern, I do believe that they use the same words and gestures, otherwise it would be impossible to identify the spells being cast by a sorcerer. It's true that they have a natural gift for magic, but I think they have to follow the same rules as everyone else. Wizards learn the the ways to cast spells, Sorcerers instinctively know it. You could never tell a wizard casting a spell from a sorcerer casting a spell unless you saw the wizards spell book.They follow the same laws of magic and spellcraft, thus Spellcraft identifying the spell, but that doesn't mean they carbon copy each other.
Exactly. Look at the rules for one wizard just trying to read another's spellbook. That's between members of the same class. It's not hard to see that magnified when you're talking about different classes.
A wizard can identify a cleric's spells and vice versa. But surely we don't assume those two classes go through the exact same spellcasting methods?
Besides, for me it also has to do with in-game sensibility. If wizards and sorcerers literally only differ by mechanical, meta-game factors, then one or the other lacks a place within the consistency of the game world and should be eliminated.
Sorcerers become supremely dry, boring, and stupid for me, personally, if they are identical to wizards save for the meta-game mechanics of their spellcasting. Oh, and not having a book.
Hunterofthedusk, I get the impression you're offended. I'm not sure why, but let me say I wasn't trying to devalue what you were saying, and offensiveness certainly wasn't my intent. I apologize if you found my replies to be so.
They might not all be based on genetics since it is generally dictated by the the DM with or without input from the the PC. Could be similar to the UA Bloodline feats. Perhaps the PC has an unusual ancestor. The PC might be a throwback to an earlier age. Possibly unusal energies were present at the conception, pregnancy or birth of a child which infused the aura (Charisma based). It could be part of an omen sent by the gods, part of an ancient prophecy or legend.