Up front here: this is not a complaint. Your work so far has been awesome. It's just... it might be time for a change.
Looking back at the APs, I see a recurring theme. Shackled City: schizo celestial orchestrates a generations-long scheme to escape imprisonment. Age of Worms: Kyuss' thousands-of-years-long plan to achieve godhood and cast the world into writhing darkness is about to hit paydirt. Savage Tide: although Demogorgon's plot to transcend his nature is a recent thing, it has roots going back a long long time. Rise of the Runelords: a wizard asleep for ten thousand years seeks to escape and reconquer his kingdom. Curse of the Crimson Throne: well, I'll avoid big spoilers, but it's got another ancient villain trying to resurrect itself. Second Darkness... the "second" in its name kinda speaks for itself, no?
Why not throw the PCs up against something new in the world, an unprecedented and unknown evil that they can't just research because it's never been seen before?
Creative Director
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Up front here: this is not a complaint. Your work so far has been awesome. It's just... it might be time for a change.
Looking back at the APs, I see a recurring theme. Shackled City: schizo celestial orchestrates a generations-long scheme to escape imprisonment. Age of Worms: Kyuss' thousands-of-years-long plan to achieve godhood and cast the world into writhing darkness is about to hit paydirt. Savage Tide: although Demogorgon's plot to transcend his nature is a recent thing, it has roots going back a long long time. Rise of the Runelords: a wizard asleep for ten thousand years seeks to escape and reconquer his kingdom. Curse of the Crimson Throne: well, I'll avoid big spoilers, but it's got another ancient villain trying to resurrect itself. Second Darkness... the "second" in its name kinda speaks for itself, no?
Why not throw the PCs up against something new in the world, an unprecedented and unknown evil that they can't just research because it's never been seen before?
Curse of the Crimson Throne's main bad guy actually ISN'T an ancient villain trying to resurrect itself, actually. There's an ancient villain involved, sure, but the adventure's not about him. It's about someone who uses that ancient villain's legacy to do some pretty evil things.
And the big bad guy in Second Darkness won't be an ancient evil trying to come back from ancient roots either.
We ARE trying to mix things up; that's why we went with a human BBEG for Runelords, after all.
You wanna mix things up reeeaaaall good? Do an adventure path with a gnome is the big bad end duder...Don't exactly see gnomish super villians very often.
Curse of the Crimson Throne's main bad guy actually ISN'T an ancient villain trying to resurrect itself, actually. There's an ancient villain involved, sure, but the adventure's not about him. It's about someone who uses that ancient villain's legacy to do some pretty evil things.
And the big bad guy in Second Darkness won't be an ancient evil trying to come back from ancient roots either.
We ARE trying to mix things up; that's why we went with a human BBEG for Runelords, after all.
Coolness, I look forward to seeing what you do with 'em. :) Sorry for the misjudgements.
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Personally, I think ancient evils tend to be more of a cornerstone of the genre as opposed to recent, untested evil villains. One of the qualities that gives the ancient villain a greater aura of threat/danger to the PCs is the timelessness of being having either lived through many ages of the world or having been completely from another time. The newer evil just tends to lend itself to being considered a lower threat and tends to either have at it's root something much older or is empowered by something older (an evil relic, a cabal of dark priests of a dead god, etc).
Mr Jacobs, I for one would like to applaud the steps you and the team are taking to diversify the BBEG's for both Pathfinder and the Gamemastery modules.
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And that fact that though the Runelord's used supernatural powers, their cruelty and sin were not some otherworldy power, just the worst excesses of human nature. That makes Karzoug as evil if not more so than even Demogorgon, if not quite in the same league.
An ancient or secret BBEG is more portable into homebrews and non-Golarion games. The past can be buried in places (and times) that aren't detailed in a homebrew or published setting. Villains that are current and well-known generally have a much greater impact on the current setting, which makes their plots more difficult to integrate.
That said, I occasionally want to see current and well-known villains. When creating homebrew settings I look for these elements as world building blocks. I prefer Iuz, Sammaster, Szass Tam, the Lord of Blades and even Vanthus Vanderboren over Karzoug or Kyuss. I think players find more satisfaction in spoiling the plots of an enemy who has a highly visible, direct and negative impact on their character's surroundings.
I am very much looking forward to Curse of the Crimson Throne. :)
Don't exactly see gnomish super villians very often.
That's because they're just too good. They don't do amateurish plots like openly raising a buzzillion skeletons and trying to take over the world with them (only to be stopped by 4 1st-level clerics with high charisma and extra turning). They're usually doing the power behind the throne/shadow government thing. About 80% of Golarions nations are in fact ruled by gnomes!
Anyway, I second the idea of a gnomish supervillain for Pathfinder Adventure Path 4 or so. And let Nick Logue come up with the details!
I prefer Iuz, Sammaster, Szass Tam, the Lord of Blades and even Vanthus Vanderboren over Karzoug or Kyuss.
The Lord of Blades is a great bad guy. He's got freakin' Human Bane Armor Spikes for cyring out loud! What a Kook! Fighting him would be a pain, especially since his environment of the Mournland gives him so advantages.
But he's not all-powerful, so he's sort of a more aproachable, less depressing bad guy. You would think to yourself: "It's going to be a tough fight, but I think we can do this."
With some of the really ultra-powerful BBEGs, as a player I often think: "This guy would be impossible for us to take out except for the carefully crafted weaknesses that were written into the adventure that we are destined to find and exploit."
or "We're going to lose unless the DM cuts us a break or just gets overwhelmed by the difficulty of running a CR 20 bad guy."
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Chief Technical Officer
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You wanna mix things up reeeaaaall good? Do an adventure path with a gnome is the big bad end duder...Don't exactly see gnomish super villians very often.
I hereby categorically deny that the big bad in Second Darkness is a 30th-level gnome bard. (Depending on your definition of "is," of course.)
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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You wanna mix things up reeeaaaall good? Do an adventure path with a gnome is the big bad end duder...Don't exactly see gnomish super villians very often.I hereby categorically deny that the big bad in Second Darkness is a 30th-level gnome bard. (Depending on your definition of "is," of course.)
How about a demon gnome with a magic staff?
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You wanna mix things up reeeaaaall good? Do an adventure path with a gnome is the big bad end duder...Don't exactly see gnomish super villians very often.I hereby categorically deny that the big bad in Second Darkness is a 30th-level gnome bard. (Depending on your definition of "is," of course.)
Sounds more like a 30th-level Lich Gnome Bard, probably with a few levels of Monk
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You wanna mix things up reeeaaaall good? Do an adventure path with a gnome is the big bad end duder...Don't exactly see gnomish super villians very often.I hereby categorically deny that the big bad in Second Darkness is a 30th-level gnome bard. (Depending on your definition of "is," of course.)
So right now he IS a gnome apprenticing to be a bard, and by the time the books are printed he will have gained 2 dozen or so levels in it?
hmmm...gnomish bard/marshal with leadership...standing up on a podium shouting commands and cracking his whip-of-better-morale, surrounded by a pikewall with some arches in the back...
Actually, this makes me want to get ahold of a warhammer ratling model and find some way to convert it into a commissar...
How about a demon gnome with a magic staff?
All those gnome guys claim to have "magic staffs."
Overcompensation, much? They should just go buy little red sports-cars or something. Or maybe a Hummer.
I vote for an evil eight year old genius. You've seen them in restaurants...
It'd be nice to see an AP with not just one BBEG. But a diverse group.
It's been done before sure, and to a greater extent with a BBEG that has a group of minions. But as I've seen with Shackled City and AoW and Rise of the Rune Lords, it all boils down to pretty much Party of X against 1 BBEG.
It'd be nice to see a BBEG group of a Rogue, a couple fighters, a Wizard, and a Cleric. Something to that effect.
....gnomes need not apply. XD I kid!
It'd be nice to see a BBEG group of a Rogue, a couple fighters, a Wizard, and a Cleric. Something to that effect.
So basically a party vs. party campaign?
I vote for an evil eight year old genius. You've seen them in restaurants...
Those aren't geniuses.
Kids and Villains do go together, though: Every villain needs a five-year-old as one of his advisors: Everything the kid figures out within 30 seconds has to be reworked before being incorporated into the Big Evil Masterplan.
Oh, and of course, every villain should have one of his three-year-old grandchildren with him at all times, so when the heroes enter his inner sanctum, the villain asks the heroes if they could explain why they want to hurt grampa. Then they start pontificating, which is the little one's prompt to activate the trap-door to dump the heroes into the alligator pit. Then the pesky heroes are dealt with, and kids really love alligators, and the villain gets to spend quality time with his family. Everybody wins, except those who are dead, but they don't count.
This all reminds me of that story I heard (don't know whether it's true, but it sure is funny): This guy sits in the restaurant when some little brat runs up to his table, sticks his fork into the guys plate, cuts of a piece of his steak and eats it, grinning like the Devil himself.
He complains to the kid's mother, but she tells him that she believes in anti-authoritarianism and doesn't scold her kid for anything.
The guy looks at her for a second, then takes the water pitcher off the table and empties it on the kids head. The kid starts bawling, the mother starts screaming, demanding what he thinks he's doing, and he calmly replies that his parents believed in anti-authoritarianism, too.
Really I would expect to learn that 95% of all events are masterminded by the secret cabal of gnomes. Why even the Runelord's rising was actually a plot by gnomes. The last 5% of course being manipulated by kobolds.
I approve of your ideas, and would like to subscribe to your journal. :)
How about a demon gnome with a magic staff?
Sure. Gnomes have been known to be evil enough to rape demons.
It'd be nice to see a BBEG group of a Rogue, a couple fighters, a Wizard, and a Cleric. Something to that effect.So basically a party vs. party campaign?
Yes something to that effect. Of course one of the party members would be the unifying point of the parties goals. But they should all have solid reasons for working toward their goal together.
Here's a shake up, how about an AP where the players are assumed to be evil. I asked my DM about an evil game starting off at 1st level and he said no, citing that its kind of dumb starting off picking pockets and so forth.
Personally, with the quality work you guys do, I'd love to see your take on a game where the PCs start off as low level BGs and end up being the BBEG.
Thoughts?
Oh, and of course, every villain should have one of his three-year-old grandchildren with him at all times, so when the heroes enter his inner sanctum, the villain asks the heroes if they could explain why they want to hurt grampa.
Great idea. I might apply this to Burnt Offerings:
He complains to the kid's mother, but she tells him that she believes in anti-authoritarianism and doesn't scold her kid for anything.
Some people just shouldn't have kids! I've got two and can usually maintain enough order in a restaurant to avoid completely ruining everyone else's evening. But it's tough to wrangle my kids in a big store like Target, they run all over the place.
Many years ago I worked in a restaurant, and I was amazed at the variability of kid behavior.
I remember one family, dad was an army officer, plus mom and 5 happy kids ranging from 3-8. The kids (all 5) were more polite and better behaved than most of the grown-ups I know. The parents didn't have to yell and the kids weren't bruised and down-trodden. Something to be said for military discipline, I suppose.
I remember another couple with one kid. Cute kid, but hard to handle, kind of a spaz. Spilled her drink the exact second I put it down on the table, literally before my hand was more than a few inches away. I failed my reflex save and it spilled everywhere. Pink Snapple. Then after I brought the pizza, the kid took a big bite and immediately started choking herself and her Dad had to fish a big wad of cheese out of her mouth. Mom and Dad had this overwhelmed look to them.
How about the good guys losing? IE: the Xanth series where a sorcerer attacks the main city and despite the PCs efforts, the sorcerer takes it over. It ended up the sociaty need a change but it wasn't what I was expecting.
I'd love to see that as part of a major plot twist but not the finish to the series.
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You wanna mix things up reeeaaaall good? Do an adventure path with a gnome is the big bad end duder...Don't exactly see gnomish super villians very often.I hereby categorically deny that the big bad in Second Darkness is a 30th-level gnome bard. (Depending on your definition of "is," of course.)
That'll be REALLY interesting if Second Darkness goes 4th edition, which contains neither Gnomes nor Bards =p
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I hereby categorically deny that the big bad in Second Darkness is a 30th-level gnome bard. (Depending on your definition of "is," of course.)
***inserts tongue in cheek***
Perhaps this (30th level character and a gnome bard) is secret acknowledgment by Vic that Paizo is not only switching to 4th edition, but that there also will be gnomes and bards in 4th edition by the time of Second Darkness' release!***removes bloody stump of tongue***
Or. Not.
How about the good guys losing?
Unless it's a campaign where the PCs are bad guys, it stinks. "You done your best. You still lose." Not something Most people would like, I imagine.
...or a love-scorned and heart-broken woman out to end magic! Oh, wait, that's my campaign. How do you stop the BBEG when she is not as evil as just hurt?
Take her out to dinner, great movie, passionate night. No longer love-scorned or heart-broken, and the whole destroying the world motivation is gone.
That'll be REALLY interesting if Second Darkness goes 4th edition, which contains neither Gnomes nor Bards =p
The core books might not (though I hear the gnomes will get a player race entry in the MM4.0e), but should Paizo ever switch, be assured that their world will continue to have bards and gnomes.
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My players haven't reached Nualia yet, so maybe I'll give a cute fluffy little demon baby and see what they do about it. The party is mostly LG, so they are careful to role play moral dilemas. The baby would be 1/2 aasimar, 1/4 elf, 1/4 human, and...tainted somehow.
Ah, so you've seen the state of my kids' nappies, then...