God. That book was terrible. 'Mercurial Fullblade' mean anything to anyone here?
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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God. That book was terrible. 'Mercurial Fullblade' mean anything to anyone here?
My personal favorites from that book were the Halfing Outrider without a BAB progression and the feat that gave you an extra standard action whenever someone provoked an AoO. I also loved when WotC claimed that neither of these were mistakes.
I got so burned buying that entire set of splatbooks right before they flipped editions. NEVER AGAIN.
It still rubs me the wrong way even now.
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I count 11 books (3 of which are deluxe repeats)Ok, ignore all the minis, dungeon tiles, adventures, and deluxe repeats (and the dice, screen, etc). Nothing but the books. That's 8 books in 5 months or 1.6 books per month.
I don't see that as a reduction.
I only see 7 - assuming Tome of Treasure is a hardback.
God. That book was terrible. 'Mercurial Fullblade' mean anything to anyone here?
Mercurial Fullblade - An exotic weapon meant to wholly and unabashedly "give fighters' an edge" over spellcasters, especially when the over-sized and heavy traits and the keen special ability are added on. See also "Sharpened Pool Table" and "Buster Sword" for further examples.
That aside [threadjack][rant] I HATE the term "splatbook". I get so sick of hearing "Oh, you pulled that from some splatbook, no wonder it's broken..." I prefer to think of my campaign world as being more diverse then other people's. [/threadjack][/rant]
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Ok, ignore all the minis, dungeon tiles, adventures, and deluxe repeats (and the dice, screen, etc). Nothing but the books. That's 8 books in 5 months or 1.6 books per month.
I don't see that as a reduction.
So, we've got the core 3, 2 settings books, 2 splats and a D&D for Dummies book that nobody will buy.
Core 3 every year has already been promised, so we'll call those alright. Especially in year 1.
2 FR books? Well, I'd prefer to just see the one. Not really sure what a player's guide to the realms is going to offer me that shouldn't already be in the Campaign Setting. Again, we were promised one campaign setting per year, so we're still within expectations.
Tome of Treasures--new MIC? If they can resist the urge to put new rules crap into it and just have a book of items, I'll be alright with it. Start cramming in weapon crystals and you don't get my money.
Martial Power. It's the only real splat on the books right now, and they did manage to wait a whopping 3 months for it. I'm almost proud of them. If they can hold things to 1 true splat per quarter, I can live with that. Not holding my breath.
D&D for Dummies? Complete waste of paper. I'd happily see this one stricken from the calendar.
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This means bringing in those classes that we 'passed over' in the PHB I
You keep saying 'we.' (Other posts as well as this one, I just picked it because it kinda jumped out at me here.) I'm pretty clueless as to who is working on 4E, other than Mike Mearls, but are you one of the designers? 'Cause that would be cool... We could ask more direct questions about power sources and the like!
I got so burned buying that entire set of splatbooks right before they flipped editions. NEVER AGAIN.
It still rubs me the wrong way even now.
Tome and Blood was good. Defenders of the Faith and Masters of the Wild were both...adequate. Song and Silence was just kinda lame. Sword and First was the only one that seemed to utterly lack not only playtesting, but also copyediting.
For those who did not get the reference, a Fullblade was a two-handed exotic weapon that did 2d8 damage. A Mercurial fullblade had a 19-20/x3 crit. Or was it 18-20/x3? I can't recall.
You keep saying 'we.' (Other posts as well as this one, I just picked it because it kinda jumped out at me here.) I'm pretty clueless as to who is working on 4E, other than Mike Mearls, but are you one of the designers? 'Cause that would be cool... We could ask more direct questions about power sources and the like!
LoL
I didn't notice that myself. I am not one of the designers... I guess I just still see D&D as OUR game... hrmm... I will ahve to think about this one.
Sean Mahoney
Martial Power. It's the only real splat on the books right now, and they did manage to wait a whopping 3 months for it. I'm almost proud of them. If they can hold things to 1 true splat per quarter, I can live with that. Not holding my breath.
However, if you include the Tome of Treasure, they are already producing sourcebooks just 2 months after the 3 core books are coming out. That over 800 pages we have to get used to before they begin throwing more at us in what appears to be monthly expansions (Sept: Tome, Oct: Martial and Nov. and Dec. aren't revealed yet). Doesn't look hopeful to me.
I had somehow gathered the impression they would be doing just a PHB, DMG, and MM each year, with other products focusing mainly on adventures. If there's going to be a huge proliferation of character option source books (again!) it's just that much less likely I'll "upgrade" when the time comes.
Why do you think they messed with the rules so much? The more change, the more splat books you can sell. I don't think it will be any less than during 3e times.
In fact, it will be more: They introduce a power source, they do a splat bookf or it. Then they do a book for the next power source, and a splat book for that one.
How much of what we'll see in the 4E supplements do you think will be retread of the 3.0/3.5 supplements?
Ideas-wise? As much as they can, maybe more.
I didn't notice that myself. I am not one of the designers...
SUUUUUUURE. We believe you. DOGPILE!!! Lets get some answers about it.... ;)
I only see 7 - assuming Tome of Treasure is a hardback.
ToT is 224pp. I think that would probably be a hardback.
Aberzombie counted in D&D for dummies in his counting. I didn't bother to recount and just went off his numbers and subtracted out the deluxes. And either way, you're still looking at an average of 3 books every 2 months.
Stating other variables, just for clearity sake:
Time frame: June-Oct. April and May can't be counted since we're not counting adventures. 5 months.
The core books cannot be discounted since they are now a yearly thing.
Anyone know what differentiates the various Deluxe Editions from the Regular Editions? Is this a change in cover gimmick or some horrible content difference gimmick?
Amazon shows the same page count for the Deluxe editions, so I imagine it's just the change in cover thing (leather bound and all that crap) just like they did with 3.x.
Content change would probably be going too far - they'd have to defend themselves against the angry mob and bodyguards aren't cheap nowadays.
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I only see 7 - assuming Tome of Treasure is a hardback.ToT is 224pp. I think that would probably be a hardback.
Aberzombie counted in D&D for dummies in his counting. I didn't bother to recount and just went off his numbers and subtracted out the deluxes. And either way, you're still looking at an average of 3 books every 2 months.
Not sure how that ratio works out. 7 books in 7 months with 3 in the first - so 4 in 7 months.
Is there something I am missing?
They introduce a power source, they do a splat bookf or it. Then they do a book for the next power source, and a splat book for that one.
While I think you are right on here, I also think we could see party role splatbooks too... Complete Controller and the like (and by complete we mean... well, not complete as there will be plenty more).
Sean Mahoney
First, the reason we won't see MANY modules is simple - except in a few VERY rare cases, print modules are a loss item
While that is true, WotC also knows that people remember adventures. That is more valuable then anything else. Its essentially advertising. If Paizo didn't do GMMs/APs, do you think many would really be considering their setting? I don't. Their adventures are kicka$$ and that's the biggest reason why I am seriously looking at the PCGaz and CS. Adventures are a low cost, easy to incorporate into an existing game way of checking out a company. Not sure if you'll like the nFR? Buy Scepter Tower of Spellgard. It'll probably showcase some major differences between the old setting and the new.
While adventures are a loss item, they're also a form of advertisement that the customer pays for.
Not sure how that ratio works out. 7 books in 7 months with 3 in the first - so 4 in 7 months.
Is there something I am missing?
I eliminated the adventures so that means June to Oct only. 5 months.
The 3 core books are going to be yearly so discounting them is not realistic. Not anymore. You could for other editions. Not this one.
For those that thought that 4e would see less books, think again (Source Link):
You'll note that this doesn't include the preview books and there's only 3 things listed for the first 5 months of the year and nothing the last 2 months. Anyone that thought that 4E would have a reduction in the quantity of WotC books is kidding only themselves.
I'm not planning on switching to 4th, but the I will say the continuation of the Dungeon Tiles and D&D Icons and miniatures (of which I knew would continue) makes me happy. As long as I'm able to use these items in my games I'll happily purchase them. I can't imagine WotC tying these items to 4th edition in such a way that they are unuseable for other editions, and other rules sets. And if they did, they'd be rather silly. So while I'm not on board for 4th as far as books and mechanics, I'll still be buying items from Wizards
but the I will say the continuation of the Dungeon Tiles and D&D Icons and miniatures (of which I knew would continue) makes me happy. As long as I'm able to use these items in my games I'll happily purchase them. I can't imagine WotC tying these items to 4th edition in such a way that they are unuseable for other editions, and other rules sets.
Well we know the mini cards will have 4E stats on the back. As far as the minis game itself, we know that they're going to be using DDM 2.0.
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Well we know the mini cards will have 4E stats on the back. As far as the minis game itself, we know that they're going to be using DDM 2.0.
That's what makes me hesitant to continue buying minis. If many of the new ones are brand new to 4E, and only have 4E stats, then it'd be a waste of money to buy them. Of course, I'm hoping some are just new sculpts of old monsters.
The Iconics are another story. I can't wait for that dracolich!
Hmm... not sure how I feel about this... Though to be fair, the Underdark sourcebook (for FR), the Miniatures Handbook, and the Book of Exalted Deeds all came out in October 2003, just 3 months after the 3.5 PHB, DMG, and MM came out (July 2003). That November, the Complete Warrior and Draconomicon came out. Going back to 2000, the 3.0 PHB came out in August, the DMG came out in September, and the MM came out in November.. The first non-core rulebook, the Hero Builder's Guidebook, came out in December, followed shortly thereafter by Sword and Fist in January.
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Contributor
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Personally, I have no problem with that release schedule. The core 3 in June, FR gets 2 books (hopefully there be more behind the scenes stuff in the Campaign book if they're doing a Player's guide that early) and 6 adventures? Plus a book of magic items and the first power source splatbook. Not bad for the first 6 months. Not everyone will buy the adventures or the FR books, D&D for Dummies is a cute niche product, so there's 2 books in 4 months that might be "must haves"? I'd have to take a look back at 2003 to see what came out with 3.5, but I suspect it was pretty close (especially with the rapid release of the Race series).
Edit: Evil Genius beat me to the punch and looked it up.
I really just don't see a problem with this. They said that future books would have the Paragon and Epic character paths, so that's likely what most of this book is, as well as a few new classes. Seems reasonable to me. I would have thought people would prefer this to the option where all new content is only available through the DDI.
I would have thought people would prefer this to the option where all new content is only available through the DDI.
People were looking at 1 PHB/DMG/MM per year as all WotC would do for splats. But with this release schedule, they see that that is not true and WotC has full plans on a continuous stream of splats.
but the I will say the continuation of the Dungeon Tiles and D&D Icons and miniatures (of which I knew would continue) makes me happy. As long as I'm able to use these items in my games I'll happily purchase them. I can't imagine WotC tying these items to 4th edition in such a way that they are unuseable for other editions, and other rules sets.Well we know the mini cards will have 4E stats on the back. As far as the minis game itself, we know that they're going to be using DDM 2.0.
Having the 4th edition stats on the back of the cards is fine. I'm just not going to let the mini's know what version of the game I'm using them for until it's too late. :-D
As long as Wizards doesn't have men to kick me stupid for using these items with older editions (and different games entirely) then I'll not sweat it. (And as long as the mini's never find out: I see a Lilliput scenario happening in my apartment if those things ever came to life)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Amazon shows the same page count for the Deluxe editions, so I imagine it's just the change in cover thing (leather bound and all that crap) just like they did with 3.x.
Thanks for the info. It also looks like ENWorld has confirmed and has posted the following news regarding the deluxe editions:
Leather or some other deluxe cover material, gilded edges, ribbon book mark, etc..."
Does anyone ever buy the deluxe books? Those always strike me as a waste of money, but the frequency with which they are published suggests that they are good sellers.
Anyone know what differentiates the various Deluxe Editions from the Regular Editions? Is this a change in cover gimmick or some horrible content difference gimmick?
In 3.5 the deluxe editions:
-Cost $75 each-Were leatherbound, gilded edged, and have a ribbon
-Contained errata corrections, but otherwise were the same content.
However, these books are coming out only 4 months after release (and therefore will most-likely not have time to have all errata included (since they probably have to go to press in July, or at the latest, early August).
I *do* like the 3.5 versions, but the errata corrections being in there is a big part of the value for me - YMMV.
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I would have thought people would prefer this to the option where all new content is only available through the DDI.People were looking at 1 PHB/DMG/MM per year as all WotC would do for splats. But with this release schedule, they see that that is not true and WotC has full plans on a continuous stream of splats.
I see one splat book in the first 7 months - how is that a continuous stream?
Does anyone ever buy the deluxe books? Those always strike me as a waste of money, but the frequency with which they are published suggests that they are good sellers.
Well, they do have the advantage of making it less likely that another player at your table will accidentally put your PHB in his bag and take it home since yours will look distinct.
I think they also really appeal to the 'collector' out there... I must admit that while so far I have resist the siren call of buying them (and still haven't bought the 3.5 core books), they do call to me.
I did have one guy in my group (left recently) who had a collector's PHB and loved it like his baby...
Sean Mahoney
Does anyone ever buy the deluxe books? Those always strike me as a waste of money, but the frequency with which they are published suggests that they are good sellers.
My friend has the Deluxe PHB. He didn't buy it, but traded a bunch of cards for store credit and picked it up with that.
As long as Wizards doesn't have men to kick me stupid for using these items with older editions (and different games entirely) then I'll not sweat it.
This would be a pretty fun job... I think I will quit my current career and see if I can break into this field... <runs off looking at the Hasbro jobs page>
Sean Mahoney
As long as Wizards doesn't have men to kick me stupid for using these items with older editions (and different games entirely) then I'll not sweat it.This would be a pretty fun job... I think I will quit my current career and see if I can break into this field... <runs off looking at the Hasbro jobs page>
Sean Mahoney
Damn!
I'm going to have to watch my back for you now Sean Mahoney! Now that's TWO things to worry about: my miniatures rebelling, and Sean Mahoney coming to kick me stupid. Just do me a favor and have a distinguishing characteristic, like say a sombrero, so I can at least make an attempt at escape before the kicking commences.
Damn!
I'm going to have to watch my back for you now Sean Mahoney! Now that's TWO things to worry about: my miniatures rebelling, and Sean Mahoney coming to kick me stupid. Just do me a favor and have a distinguishing characteristic, like say a sombrero, so I can at least make an attempt at escape before the kicking commences.
I'll be the guy with out a shirt on... 'cause I think the retelling will just be more impressive if I don't have a shirt on... on the other hand I should probably go tanning and work out if that is going to the case... hrmm...
And maybe that random string across the torso that Harrison Ford had when shirtless in Temple of Doom. that made him look better for some reason...
Sean Mahoney
Damn!
I'm going to have to watch my back for you now Sean Mahoney! Now that's TWO things to worry about: my miniatures rebelling, and Sean Mahoney coming to kick me stupid. Just do me a favor and have a distinguishing characteristic, like say a sombrero, so I can at least make an attempt at escape before the kicking commences.I'll be the guy with out a shirt on... 'cause I think the retelling will just be more impressive if I don't have a shirt on... on the other hand I should probably go tanning and work out if that is going to the case... hrmm...
And maybe that random string across the torso that Harrison Ford had when shirtless in Temple of Doom. that made him look better for some reason...
Sean Mahoney
I'll keep my eye out for a shirtless guy wearing a string.... fortunately for me, that's not something you see every day... at least where I live.
I see one splat book in the first 7 months - how is that a continuous stream?
1) I use the term splats for any book that doesn't have the base chargen/experience rules in them. Yes I know I use the term incorrectly but oh well. For D&D purposes, I don't count the DMG and MM as splats. Now for 4E I do count the PHBII/DMGII/MMII as splats because IMO, they're splats for all tense and purposes but name.
2) Lets compare how WotC's release schedule for July-Oct of '08 compares with Jan-Apr of '07. I'm counting all adventures, dungeon tiles, minis, etc since they can be used for the RPG. I'm not counting novels/anthologies since they cannot be directly used in the RPG. So note: I am using the same time period back when 3.5 was in full swing and no one had confirmation of a new edition.
'07 Products
April
March
Feb
Jan
Total Products = 13
'08 Products
July
Aug
Sept
Oct
Total Products = 13
Mind you, I took out the D&D4Dummies, Deluxe books, Character sheets, and Screen.
Admit it Crosswired, its obvious that WotC has no plans of slowing down production.
I hope nobody actually beleived there wouldn't be splat books.
Wait! You mean they actually ARE going to do splat books?!? WTF! I was sure that 4E would see an end to that nonsense!! Those rat-bastards!
It has to be a lie. I refuse to believe that we were misled by the pure and virtuous folk at WotC.
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I hope nobody actually beleived there wouldn't be splat books.Wait! You mean they actually ARE going to do splat books?!? WTF! I was sure that 4E would see an end to that nonsense!! Those rat-bastards!It has to be a lie. I refuse to believe that we were misled by the pure and virtuous folk at WotC.
WotC never said anything about ending the publication of splat books.
Analysis of above data
Adventures
07 - 3
08 - 4
Non-Adventures RPG Books
07 - 5
08 - 4
Products useable in the Minis Game (Yes, includes dice)
07 - 5
08 - 5
This to me reads like WotC knows how their customer base buys products and they have full plans on sticking to this kind of schedule.
I don't think anyone thought WotC wouldn't publish occasional splatbooks or sourcebooks. But I think many of us thought the majority of that material would be absorbed by the subsequent PHBs that were well thought out and playtested (maybe not to the extent the first 3 core will be, but to some extent). But with the implied release every month of a sourcebook, I foresee good ideas poorly developed, game breaking material, inconsistencies across various sourcebooks, and more confusion that will scare any newcomer to the game. I had hoped (apparently incorrectly) that we had moved past all that.
I don't think it was naivety to think otherwise - I just assumed that WotC planned to get our money in other ways (such as "had to have" material on DDI, or updates on campaign settings every year, or absolutely essential PHB sequels, or more minis, or their own version of Adventure Paths, or something else.)
I see one splat book in the first 7 months - how is that a continuous stream?
One in the first four months -- 4/e releases in June, Martial Power releases in October.
Given there's no release schedule past October yet, the numbers don't look promising. And the trend doesn't match well with WotC's statements on the subject.
WotC never said anything about ending the publication of splat books.
They did comment on splatbook releases. Contrary to their claims, the release rate doesn't yet seem to be diminishing.
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I see one splat book in the first 7 months - how is that a continuous stream?One in the first four months -- 4/e releases in June, Martial Power releases in October.
Given there's no release schedule past October yet, the numbers don't look promising. And the trend doesn't match well with WotC's statements on the subject.
What trend? One splat book is not a trend.