It Starts (Splatbooks)


4th Edition

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The Exchange

Tatterdemalion wrote:
crosswiredmind wrote:
WotC never said anything about ending the publication of splat books.
They did comment on splatbook releases. Contrary to their claims, the release rate doesn't yet seem to be diminishing.

Huh? They said they were planning to have fewer splat books in 4E when compared to 3E. In order to call them on that we would have to compare X splat books in 3E and X+1 splat books for 4E.

So far we see one (possible) splat book. So far they have lived up to their statement.


crosswiredmind wrote:
Tatterdemalion wrote:
crosswiredmind wrote:
I see one splat book in the first 7 months - how is that a continuous stream?

One in the first four months -- 4/e releases in June, Martial Power releases in October.

Given there's no release schedule past October yet, the numbers don't look promising. And the trend doesn't match well with WotC's statements on the subject.

What trend? One splat book is not a trend.

I think people are including Tome of Treasures in their definition of splatbook (although technically it's not). The "trend" seems to be that they are releasing generic sourcebooks (not campaign specific) just a couple months after the core books. Time will only tell if they have something planned for Nov. and Dec.

The Exchange

Aberzombie wrote:
DMcCoy1693 wrote:
Aberzombie counted in D&D for dummies in his counting.

Yeah, I'm not sure why I counted that one. Seems to me that any self-respecting gamer wouldn't touch that book with a standard 10' pole.

I also note that they have 2 FR books coming out. I can't help but think those won't be the only ones.

Actually I buy every D&D for Dummies book. I chuck 'em on my coffee table for when regular people come over. I've had a bunch of people pick them up and start reading them while I was doing diaper duty and when I came back asked some questions. 2 times I had someone ask to borrow one and 1 person now games. I also keep the 30th anniversary thingy on the table when company comes over.

I use them to try to generate interest in others.


Aberzombie wrote:
DMcCoy1693 wrote:
Aberzombie counted in D&D for dummies in his counting.

Yeah, I'm not sure why I counted that one. Seems to me that any self-respecting gamer wouldn't touch that book with a standard 10' pole.

I also note that they have 2 FR books coming out. I can't help but think those won't be the only ones.

I seem to get one for my birthday every year from some friends of mine. I wonder if they are trying to tell me something....


Pat o' the Ninth Power wrote:
ManPig wrote:
What is a "splat book"?
A book with extra options and details for some subset of the game. "Splat" refers to the asterisk wildcard, as in "The Complete *" to refer to an unspecified entry in the series.

Hmmm I always thought it referred to the fact that they throw the book against the wall (the consumer base) and see what sticks.


Fake Healer wrote:


Actually I buy every D&D for Dummies book. I chuck 'em on my coffee table for when regular people come over. I've had a bunch of people pick them up and start reading them while I was doing diaper duty and when I came back asked some questions. 2 times I had someone ask to borrow one and 1 person now games. I also keep the 30th anniversary thingy on the table when company comes over.
I use them to try to generate interest in others.

That's actually a brilliant use for those books. I had no opinion one way or the other when it came to the "D&D for Dummies" titles (they did a few for 3rd didn't they). But it might be worth picking up just to get a few people I know who are mildly curious a little more interested.

The Exchange

Aaron Whitley wrote:
Aberzombie wrote:
DMcCoy1693 wrote:
Aberzombie counted in D&D for dummies in his counting.

Yeah, I'm not sure why I counted that one. Seems to me that any self-respecting gamer wouldn't touch that book with a standard 10' pole.

I also note that they have 2 FR books coming out. I can't help but think those won't be the only ones.

I seem to get one for my birthday every year from some friends of mine. I wonder if they are trying to tell me something....

If you would just read it they might stop....;P


crosswiredmind wrote:
What trend? One splat book is not a trend.

OK, fine, there's not trend.

However, an nearly-immediate release of a splatbook is inconsistent with their previous assurances.

If you took a moment off from splitting hairs and defending WotC's every utterance and action, you might see my point.

I'm not an idiot, I'm not rabidly hostile to WotC, and I don't loathe 4/e and dread its release. Quite a few of my points, and those of others, are fairly reasonable. Your opinions and comments notwithstanding.


Billzabub wrote:
Which really makes it appealing to go with a rules system like Castle & Crusades which has some flexibility in allowing people to easily convert across systems.

<TROLL> I guarantee you I will have no problem converting 4e material to Hero. </TROLL>

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Fake Healer wrote:


Actually I buy every D&D for Dummies book. I chuck 'em on my coffee table for when regular people come over. I've had a bunch of people pick them up and start reading them while I was doing diaper duty and when I came back asked some questions. 2 times I had someone ask to borrow one and 1 person now games. I also keep the 30th anniversary thingy on the table when company comes over.
I use them to try to generate interest in others.

You are a genius. I will have to pull that one.

The Exchange

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Fake Healer wrote:

Actually I buy every D&D for Dummies book. I chuck 'em on my coffee table for when regular people come over. I've had a bunch of people pick them up and start reading them while I was doing diaper duty and when I came back asked some questions. 2 times I had someone ask to borrow one and 1 person now games. I also keep the 30th anniversary thingy on the table when company comes over.

I use them to try to generate interest in others.

huh. That works?

I withdraw my "waste of paper" comment then.


Whimsy Chris wrote:

I don't think anyone thought WotC wouldn't publish occasional splatbooks or sourcebooks. But I think many of us thought the majority of that material would be absorbed by the subsequent PHBs that were well thought out and playtested (maybe not to the extent the first 3 core will be, but to some extent). But with the implied release every month of a sourcebook, I foresee good ideas poorly developed, game breaking material, inconsistencies across various sourcebooks, and more confusion that will scare any newcomer to the game. I had hoped (apparently incorrectly) that we had moved past all that.

I don't think it was naivety to think otherwise - I just assumed that WotC planned to get our money in other ways (such as "had to have" material on DDI, or updates on campaign settings every year, or absolutely essential PHB sequels, or more minis, or their own version of Adventure Paths, or something else.)

Bingo!

As ever,
ACE


josh hamilton wrote:
Barbarian and Druid are semi confirmed for the PHB 2. Both will use the 'nature' power source.

WHAT?! no druids in the PHB!?!?!?!?!? so how many classes are there?

Liberty's Edge

crosswiredmind wrote:

Geeks like to have the newest and the coolest of whatever they are into. Most gamers are geeks. The grognards and the luddites don't want the newest or the coolest. They revel in the outdated or well worn.

The market has a whole lot more geeks than grognards. If it did not then game shops would not stay in business. Heck - Games Workshop has shown that the geek factor is alive and well with multiple editions of Warhammer Fantasy Battle and 40K plus the rehash of the same figures for each new edition.

I hate to say it but we will buy new stuff all the time - even when the old stuff still has life left in it.

I would like to point out that I don't really fit into either category. I certainly consider myself a gamer, and I particularly enjoy Dungeons and Dragons. While I certainly have some 'geeky tendencies' (of which I am proud) I do not live in my mother's basement. I have a wife, a child, a decent career, and am generally fulfilled and satisfied.

Nor would I consider myself a Grognard. I was born in 1979, and so while I did play a little 1st edition, I grew up on 2nd edition, and had no trouble switching to 3rd and 3.5.

I did not switch to 3rd edition because it was new. I switched because I considered many of the core mechanics to be improvements. I also switched to 3.5 for the same reason, and I thought the production values were higher (compare my Sword and Fist to my Complete Warrior).

However, I'm very happy to buy for the edition that I like. Because I'm concerned that the edition I play may not survive, there is a good chance that I'll have ALL the books (not by WotC) in short order. Since the announcement of the cancellation of Dragon and Dungeon magazine I have not purchased a single WotC product. But I have been playing quite a bit in that time. And I've likely INCREASED my gaming spending.

Paizo is the largest recipient of my gaming dollar. I have the first 5 Pathfinder volumes, and more on the way. I have the Chronicles subscription as well (which has included item cards so far). I have the Gamemastery modules (like 10 of them now, at $15/pop or so). I bought the City of Brass boxed set ($100) and Ptolus ($100). I bought a TON of Green Ronin products at the Paizo sale. I've bought 3 flip mats, 3 map card packs (inns, temples, and one other). I've bought a few hundred dollars in Reaper Minis. And some other stuff I can't think of right now.

The fact is, I don't expect to begin spending less on 3.5 products, and may continue to ramp up my spending. It certainly looks like a viable market to me (though I am admittetly looking in from the outside).

Now, while some people don't believe it, I don't feel compelled to switch to 4th edition. There is no benefit to me to do so. The rules don't seem to appeal to me (from what I've seen). I don't need major changes to the rules to have fun. I manage to run combats fairly smoothly and quickly, and I don't want to fit more of them into my game sessions. I like the fact that the mechanics are consistent, and when they're silly, I fix them.

I think there could have been more streamlining of 3.x, but that's been taken off the table. So, I'll keep working on it myself, and our group will have all kinds of 'new' material by changing the mix (supplements allowed) and the rules (we love alternate classes/race rules, etc.).

So, while you can certainly speak for yourself (and maybe a lot of Geeks), there are certainly gamers that don't need the newest thing but still spend a lot of money buying new product. Like me.

Dark Archive

I am beginning to realize that the more I hear about 4th edition, the less I care.


This development bums me out. I thought one PHB per year was a smart solution the splatbook problem. Guess not.


DMcCoy1693 wrote:
CEBrown wrote:
First, the reason we won't see MANY modules is simple - except in a few VERY rare cases, print modules are a loss item

While that is true, WotC also knows that people remember adventures. That is more valuable then anything else. Its essentially advertising. If Paizo didn't do GMMs/APs, do you think many would really be considering their setting? I don't. Their adventures are kicka$$ and that's the biggest reason why I am seriously looking at the PCGaz and CS. Adventures are a low cost, easy to incorporate into an existing game way of checking out a company. Not sure if you'll like the nFR? Buy Scepter Tower of Spellgard. It'll probably showcase some major differences between the old setting and the new.

While adventures are a loss item, they're also a form of advertisement that the customer pays for.

Actually, I haven't seen a Wizards adventure in 3.0/3.5 that I liked. They were all awful. Paizo was doing a job ten times better. Goodman Games was doing a job ten times better. Only the old classic adventures TSR made were really any good in that regard.


DMcCoy1693 wrote:
CEBrown wrote:
First, the reason we won't see MANY modules is simple - except in a few VERY rare cases, print modules are a loss item

While that is true, WotC also knows that people remember adventures. That is more valuable then anything else. Its essentially advertising. If Paizo didn't do GMMs/APs, do you think many would really be considering their setting? I don't. Their adventures are kicka$$ and that's the biggest reason why I am seriously looking at the PCGaz and CS. Adventures are a low cost, easy to incorporate into an existing game way of checking out a company. Not sure if you'll like the nFR? Buy Scepter Tower of Spellgard. It'll probably showcase some major differences between the old setting and the new.

While adventures are a loss item, they're also a form of advertisement that the customer pays for.

Right - which is why Hasbro WILL put out some...

My guess is probably one print "mega-module" (hard cover, $30 book) per quarter and 1-2 modules a month in PDF form through the Dungeon e-zine. Possibly 1-2 smaller print modules a year specifically to advertise a new setting or product - or to tie in the latest miniatures release into the RPG more solidly.

They'll rely on third party publishers for anything beyond that, since the OGL sounds like it's more geared towards releasing adventures and VERY carefully designed supplements than anything else.

Dark Archive

Balabanto wrote:
Actually, I haven't seen a Wizards adventure in 3.0/3.5 that I liked. They were all awful. Paizo was doing a job ten times better. Goodman Games was doing a job ten times better. Only the old classic adventures TSR made were really any good in that regard.

"The Red Hand of Doom" is pretty good, I assure you. Oh, just take a look at its authors. ;-)

The Exchange

Tatterdemalion wrote:
However, an nearly-immediate release of a splatbook is inconsistent with their previous assurances.

What previous assurance?

Tatterdemalion wrote:

If you took a moment off from splitting hairs and defending WotC's every utterance and action, you might see my point.

I'm not an idiot, I'm not rabidly hostile to WotC, and I don't loathe 4/e and dread its release. Quite a few of my points, and those of others, are fairly reasonable. Your opinions and comments notwithstanding.

I am not sure what your point actually is. I see a bit of hyperbole about a disturbing trend with a flood of splat books. I am not sure how i am supposed to read that as a reasonable point?

I would love to be able to have a better dialogue but it seems that I am always having to react to rants rather than reason.

If you are not hostile towards Wizards, and you do not loathe 4E then perhaps you points would be better understood if they were no wrapped in the language of hostility and loathing.

Sczarni

TerraDave wrote:

Dungeons of Dread booster (D&D Miniatures Product): April 8 2008

D&D Miniatures Game Starter (D&D Miniatures Product): April 15, 2008

Keep on the Shadowfell: Adventure H1: May 20 2008

Player's Handbook: Jun 6, 2008

Dungeon Master's Guide: Jun 6, 2008

Monster Manual: Jun 6, 2008

DDI pay month 1 : June

TerraDave wrote:

Against the Giants: A Dungeons & Dragons Miniatures Huge pack: Jul 15, 2008

Dungeons & Dragons Character Record Sheets: Jul 15, 2008

Halls of the Giant Kings: Dungeon Tiles: Jul 15, 2008

Dungeons & Dragons Premium Dice: Jul 15, 2008

Thunderspire Labyrinth: Adventure H2: Jul 15, 2008

Dungeons & Dragons for Dummies: July 21, 2008

DDI pay month 2: July

TerraDave wrote:

Dungeon Master's Screen: Aug 19, 2008

D&D Icons: Gargantuan Dracolich (D&D Miniatures Product) Aug 19, 2008

Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide: Aug 19, 2008

Pyramid of Shadows: Adventure H3: Aug 19, 2008

DDI Pay Month 3: Aug

TerraDave wrote:

Forgotten Realms Player's Guide: Sep 16, 2008

Scepter Tower of Spellgard: Adventure FR1: Sep 16, 2008

Tome of Treasures (Suplement): Sep 16, 2008

DDI Pay month 4: sept

TerraDave wrote:

Dungeon Master's Guide - Deluxe Edition: Oct 21, 2008

King of the Trollhaunt Warrens: Adventure P1: Oct 21, 2008

Martial Power (Rules Expansion): Oct 21, 2008

Monster Manual - Deluxe Edition: Oct 21, 2008

Player's Handbook - Deluxe Edition: A 4th Edition Core Rulebook: Oct 21, 2008

Urban Lairs: DU1 - Dungeon Tiles: Oct 21, 2008

DDI Pay month 5: Oct

now you need to recalculate the splat-suppliments because DDI is splat in my mind

The Exchange

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Cpt_kirstov wrote:
now you need to recalculate the splat-suppliments because DDI is splat in my mind

Well, you're welcome to recalculate it for yourself, but I suspect that your definition of "splatbook" is significantly broader than most people's. I would personally be shocked if DDI contained more than half of the content one usually found in the paper versions of Dungeon and Dragon magazines.

So, if you're considering DDI to be splat, then you should consider Dungeon and Dragon as a splat apiece. By your definition, WOTC is clearly keeping up it's "promise" to reduce supplementary content.

Liberty's Edge

Fake Healer wrote:
Aberzombie wrote:
DMcCoy1693 wrote:
Aberzombie counted in D&D for dummies in his counting.

Yeah, I'm not sure why I counted that one. Seems to me that any self-respecting gamer wouldn't touch that book with a standard 10' pole.

I also note that they have 2 FR books coming out. I can't help but think those won't be the only ones.

Actually I buy every D&D for Dummies book. I chuck 'em on my coffee table for when regular people come over. I've had a bunch of people pick them up and start reading them while I was doing diaper duty and when I came back asked some questions. 2 times I had someone ask to borrow one and 1 person now games. I also keep the 30th anniversary thingy on the table when company comes over.

I use them to try to generate interest in others.

Youse smarter than the average bear.


Everything is core.

Buy it b&~$@es, buy it all!

*slaps self

Errr.... sorry for that outburst guys.

It's just a game guys...

*bell rings in the grotty recesses of Kruelaid's drug addled mind.

Hey wait a minute.

*clatter clatter google clatter:

Just A Game by Triumph
Wizards of a modern age cast spells of electric power
But the corporate strings that make them dance
Lead up to an ivory tower
There sit the fates in solitude, far from the public eye
No one ever sees them smile and nothing makes them cry
Welcome to the kingdom, the land of bought and sold
A world of real-life fantasy where truths are seldom told
Try hard to remember all that glitters is not gold
You can pay the piper, but you cannot buy his soul
CHORUS:
It's just a game, you're in it all the way
It's just a game, don't let yourself slip away
It's such a shame, I heard somebody say
It's just a game, and all I can do...is play
What you do choose, now, what do you believe, now
Who are you gonna trust?
All you dreams and fancy schemes
Just crumble into dust
Calm and cool and computerized to calculate and collect
We wait and watch and wonder
Just which puppet they'll select
Like the moth, too near the flame,
Who learned his truth too late
We're all too deep into the game
That is the master of our fate
The poets and the pipers have got their motives
And you've got yours, no doubt
And so the game continues
That's what it's all about...
CHORUS

Prophets, man, totally prophetic type prophets.

Sczarni

evilvolus wrote:
Cpt_kirstov wrote:
now you need to recalculate the splat-suppliments because DDI is splat in my mind

Well, you're welcome to recalculate it for yourself, but I suspect that your definition of "splatbook" is significantly broader than most people's. I would personally be shocked if DDI contained more than half of the content one usually found in the paper versions of Dungeon and Dragon magazines.

So, if you're considering DDI to be splat, then you should consider Dungeon and Dragon as a splat apiece. By your definition, WOTC is clearly keeping up it's "promise" to reduce supplementary content.

Some issues of dragon I did consider SPLAT, most I didn't, but if what we've seen from DDI so far is any indication 1/2 of DDI is going to be web enhancements of the splatbooks

The Exchange

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Well, we've been told that the DDI will contain web supplements. However, I think it's unrealistic to compare those 5-10 page (yes, I'm guessing) addons to 160-page sourcebooks. Every indication I've seen about DDI is that unless the virtual tabletop is a far superior peice of technology to the website itself, the DDI will be grossly overpriced and under-contented.


Just wait a few months. Their (WotC) announcements will be splat light, splat heavy or somewhere in between.

Oh and for fun, it shall now be known as diet splat or D&Diarrhea.

The Exchange

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
ArchLich wrote:
Oh and for fun, it shall now be known as diet splat or D&Diarrhea.

Ah, man. Has WotC started cooking with Olestra?

Sovereign Court

DMcCoy1693 wrote:

For those that thought that 4e would see less books, think again (Source Link):

You'll note that this doesn't include the preview books and there's only 3 things listed for the first 5 months of the year and nothing the last 2 months. Anyone that thought that 4E would have a reduction in the quantity of WotC books is kidding only themselves.

And yet here's Pathfinder for this March:

Pathfinder #7 and #8 = $27.98
Guide to Korvosa = $17.99
Harrow Deck = $15.99
Pathfinder Chronicles Gazetteer = $17.99
Classic Monsters Revisited = $17.99
Total = $97.94 (before shipping)

So... WOTC is "bad" for putting out so many things each month while Paizo is "good" for doing the same. Now, Paizo is much better quality, but I have a feeling it's going to get really expensive towards the middle of the year...

Pete

Liberty's Edge

Rules supplements often result in bloat. The chronicles products are rules light and may be system neutral.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Pete Apple wrote:
So... WOTC is "bad" for putting out so many things each month while Paizo is "good" for doing the same.

Difference is this: WotC, if you want to convert over your existing game to the new edition and were only using the PHB/DMG/MM before, you need to have PHBI/DMGI/MMI/PHBII/Arcane Power (guessing the bard is going to be in there) and whereever else they put 3.5 phb classes/races. So in short, while these are "wants" they're closer to "need". If you don't want to buy anything beyond the inital core 3, you can make up the rest. But will it be underpowered or will it be broken, will it have the right feel, will it have enough feats, will it have spells that are appropriate? Generally, it won't get any of these ... "right." Players will notice that their character is not useful enough or to useful So buying additional books is more of a need then a want.

Paizo, With a few adventures, you can get enough sense of the world that you can make up the rest. If all you own is the RotRL player's guide and 2 GMM adventures (and I'd argue you don't even need that much), your players won't notice. Do you "need" harrow deck to play Pathfiner Chronicles correctly? No. Do you "need" item cards? No. Do you need Pathfinder? No. If you want a campaign on The Isle of Terror, will pathfinder even help you? Only minimumly (god descriptions and similar).

That's the difference. One is more of a "Need;" the other is clearly a "Want."

Dark Archive

Maybe I have some new aspects to this discussion:

1) Putting out the first Splatbook so early: One of the 3rd edition designers (I think it was Monte Cook) said it was an error publishing Tome and Blood so early (sorry no link). As for 3rd TaB the Players have to learn and master a new system before they are able to absorb more new rules and stuff.

That puts me to the next point

2) What is in there? I think this book will contain a lot of material that has not made it into the PHB. I guess we will see a lot of add-ons like new Feats (or the 4th equivalent), maybe some 4th version "Prestige Classes". But I also think we will see some material that will make the people buy it. Swordsage anyone?

Which leads to the next point

3) Will the material be playtested or will it contain the same mix of good and very bad Stuff like TaB, SaF etc.? Well, I guess it will contain some stuff that got a lot of playtesting: The rules that did not make it into the PBH. But there will be some stuff that is not playtested or less playtested. But that will hold true for most of the upcoming Books.

I guess WoC will take the same path as they took with 3rd edition. And why not? £rd edition was a huge success so they naturally hope to have the same or even more success with 4th.
They won't make some of the 3rd mistakes:
1) They will prevent the D20 Trash glut.
2) They will call their "yearly" Books PHB, DMG and MM II, III and so on. And they will purposefully insert Player Favorite material in later Books. Why? Because they want that players and not only DMs buy these Books. And if you want to play a Necromancer you have to buy PHB III, the Druid is in PHB II and so on. After all WoC is there to sell stuff in the first place.

I guess we will see the same Books that were successful in 3rd also in 4th edition. Why change all the Fluff in the first place if not to be able to issue all the Books again.
So in the 4th lifecycle I guess we will see
- A Book about Dragons
- A Book about the Feywild (or whatever it is called)
- A Book about Demons and one about Devils
- And of course a Book about Undead.
- One or more Books that cover the different environments like ice, water, sand, dungeons and cities
- A Spell/Incantions whatever magic is called in 4th Book

and you know that 4th has run its course if you see a rules companion and the 4th equivalent of the elder evils book :-)

All that is not Eviiil, it is simple WoC trying to sell as much books as they can.

Sovereign Court

DMcCoy1693 wrote:


Difference is this: WotC, if you want to convert over your existing game to the new edition and were only using the PHB/DMG/MM before, you need to have PHBI/DMGI/MMI/PHBII/Arcane Power (guessing the bard is going to be in there) and whereever else they put 3.5 phb classes/races.

So... I understand a bit better now. You're going from the position of "converting" 3.5 characters over to 4.0, so you want all the same characters and races covered in the core 3 books with each addition. In which case I agree with you that you'll have to buy more books then before, but that's only because you're going with the "convert" assumption to start with. You could play just with the 3 core books. Just not a bard. I really liked Windows XP too. Sigh.

WOTC has done some sort of market research (one hopes, anyway) and determined that the number of Gnome Bard's just wasn't cutting it, so they pushed those out to later books and included "more better" stuff in the 3 core books.

[Alright, so you tell me, honestly here, singing Gnome with a lute, or hot demon chick that throws fire? Which are the kids going to dig?]

Sovereign Court

Tharen the Damned wrote:

All that is not Eviiil, it is simple WoC trying to sell as much books as they can.

That is so, like, you know, their job, I think. Weird. Just goes to show if all *you* people hadn't bought all those previous splat books in the first place this wouldn't be happening. Thanks alot! :-)

If people stop buying Edsel's, they stop making them.

Dark Archive

Pete Apple wrote:

That is so, like, you know, their job, I think. Weird. Just goes to show if all *you* people hadn't bought all those previous splat books in the first place this wouldn't be happening. Thanks alot! :-)

If people stop buying Edsel's, they stop making them.

It us us that brought the DOOM upon us!

But we have not bought enough Books, we should have bough even more!
Every Player should have bought every Splat Book at least 3 times.
But we did not do it

The Sun is setting and soon darkness will gather.
The long dark night for 3rd has begun.
The pass into oblivion.
But worry not!
The Sun will rise again and a new day will dawn
The 4th since the creation of the GAME....

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Pete Apple wrote:
So... I understand a bit better now. You're going from the position of "converting" 3.5 characters over to 4.0,

Its more then JUST converting. You can take any 1st ed module and run it with 3.5 rules and the feel would be the same. More options, updated, sure. But the basic feel of the game is still the same. Feel like: Low level characters are always 2 minutes away from death (aka swingy), spellcasters are not tough people but wield powerful magic, characters are great at some things and totally suck at others and NEED the team. These things Mearls fully admits that 4E design team are taking out of the game. These are things I like about the game and EXPECT when I play a game called Dungeons and Dragons.

And its not just about spending the money. Its also about an assumed world. The 4E world assumes that players have enough interaction with infernal beings that tieflings and warlocks are common, common enough to make it into the PHBI. I don't like that world. Frankly, from a religous standpoint, I don't want to play in a world where that is "common." In a world where it happens but is uncommon, sure. But it should be, IMO, about as common as a Blue psion. In short, raaaaaaaare.

Pete Apple wrote:
[Alright, so you tell me, honestly here, singing Gnome with a lute, or hot demon chick that throws fire? Which are the kids going to dig?]

I'm also against cheesecake in my RPG books. So the "hot demon chick" has 2 strikes against her.

I've been saying it since September and I'll say it again: I'm sure 4E is a fun game, but everything I know about it says that they're taking the D&Dness out of the game. My single biggest problem with 4E is that the name Dungeons and Dragons is on it.


Sebastian wrote:
Does anyone ever buy the deluxe books? Those always strike me as a waste of money, but the frequency with which they are published suggests that they are good sellers.

I finally picked up the deluxes for 3.5 this past Christmas, sold as "remainders".

I think I paid $50 for the PHB (as it's the most sought after), but only paid $20/each for the DMG and MM.

Got me an extra set of the 3 core books, for the same price as the non-deluxe cores...


Brian E. Harris wrote:
Sebastian wrote:
Does anyone ever buy the deluxe books? Those always strike me as a waste of money, but the frequency with which they are published suggests that they are good sellers.

I finally picked up the deluxes for 3.5 this past Christmas, sold as "remainders".

I think I paid $50 for the PHB (as it's the most sought after), but only paid $20/each for the DMG and MM.

Got me an extra set of the 3 core books, for the same price as the non-deluxe cores...

I also got all three deluxe core books eventually, after the price dropped around here. I think I paid €40 for each, instead of twice as much, which was more or less the usual price in most cases.

They look good, have errata, and a second set of core rules is always handy.


Tatterdemalion wrote:
However, an nearly-immediate release of a splatbook is inconsistent with their previous assurances.
crosswiredmind wrote:
What previous assurance?

You've mentioned them yourself -- check your own posts. It's like your brain ignores whatever is necessary to allow you to criticize, correct, or argue.

crosswiredmind wrote:
I would love to be able to have a better dialogue but it seems that I am always having to react to rants rather than reason.

Hardly the first time you've made that thinly-veiled criticism -- but we know you're not calling anyone unreasonable. You've told us so.

Look at your posts. How many are criticisms and corrections? And in the past couple of months, have you once conceded another's point?

Don't lecture about being reasonable.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Pete Apple wrote:

And yet here's Pathfinder for this March:

Pathfinder #7 and #8 = $27.98
Guide to Korvosa = $17.99
Harrow Deck = $15.99
Pathfinder Chronicles Gazetteer = $17.99
Classic Monsters Revisited = $17.99
Total = $97.94 (before shipping)

So... WOTC is "bad" for putting out so many things each month while Paizo is "good" for doing the same. Now, Paizo is much better quality, but I have a feeling it's going to get really expensive towards the middle of the year...

I'm not attempting to argue against your point, but for the sake of accuracy, I'd like to point out that Pathfinder 7, the Guide to Korvosa, the Harrow Deck, and the Player's Guide to Curse of the Crimson Throne (which you left out) are really expected to begin shipping in the last days of February—we're just calling them March because we don't have a guaranteed delivery date yet.


Tatterdemalion wrote:

Hardly the first time you've made that thinly-veiled criticism...

Don't lecture about being reasonable.

He drives me nuts too, dude. He seems unable to grasp the opinions of others and get perspective on his own.

The Exchange

Tatterdemalion wrote:
Tatterdemalion wrote:
However, an nearly-immediate release of a splatbook is inconsistent with their previous assurances.
crosswiredmind wrote:
What previous assurance?
You've mentioned them yourself -- check your own posts. It's like your brain ignores whatever is necessary to allow you to criticize, correct, or argue.

The assurance I mentioned previously was that there would not be as many splat books as 3E. So far that is still the case.

Tatterdemalion wrote:
crosswiredmind wrote:
I would love to be able to have a better dialogue but it seems that I am always having to react to rants rather than reason.

Hardly the first time you've made that thinly-veiled criticism -- but we know you're not calling anyone unreasonable. You've told us so.

Look at your posts. How many are criticisms and corrections? And in the past couple of months, have you once conceded another's point?

Don't lecture about being reasonable.

I am not lecturing but when I react to someone that screams about a disturbing flood of splat books by pointing out the objective fact - there is just one splat book on the schedule as of now - then I am simply countering hyperbole wit a fact. It's not a lecture when I say that I reply to rants with reason - that is simply stating exactly what happened in this very thread.

The Exchange

Kruelaid wrote:
Tatterdemalion wrote:

Hardly the first time you've made that thinly-veiled criticism...

Don't lecture about being reasonable.

He drives me nuts too, dude. He seems unable to grasp the opinions of others and get perspective on his own.

ad hominem - This is not about me. If you care to address my point rather than some perceived deficiency in my ability to communicate then I will be pleased to address your counter point.

However, if all you want to do is post how you do not like my style of communication then there is nothing more for us to talk about.

Liberty's Edge

I hope they make Complete Fishwife this time. More splatbooks means I might finally get Complete Charcoal Maker, Complete Waddle Dauber, and Complete Linkboy.
And, Sewerscape would be snazzy.


Heathansson wrote:

I hope they make Complete Fishwife this time. More splatbooks means I might finally get Complete Charcoal Maker, Complete Waddle Dauber, and Complete Linkboy.

And, Sewerscape would be snazzy.

Personally, I think a much better book would be "The Complete Book to Catering to Eileen". Leather edition available only.

Liberty's Edge

EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
Heathansson wrote:

I hope they make Complete Fishwife this time. More splatbooks means I might finally get Complete Charcoal Maker, Complete Waddle Dauber, and Complete Linkboy.

And, Sewerscape would be snazzy.
Personally, I think a much better book would be "The Complete Book to Catering to Eileen". Leather edition available only.

"How to Serve Man.....we've translated it....it's...a cookbook!!!"


Don't forget the Elminsters Guide to Inns named after Birds!

Scarab Sages

Tatterdemalion wrote:

Hardly the first time you've made that thinly-veiled criticism...

Don't lecture about being reasonable.

Kruelaid wrote:
He drives me nuts too, dude. He seems unable to grasp the opinions of others and get perspective on his own.
crosswiredmind wrote:

ad hominem - This is not about me. If you care to address my point rather than some perceived deficiency in my ability to communicate then I will be pleased to address your counter point.

However, if all you want to do is post how you do not like my style of communication then there is nothing more for us to talk about.

And yet, there you go talking to him about it. ;)

You have a "debate" style similar to a couple of guys who used to post on the DND-L list. I wonder.......

Anyway, carry on. :)


Heathansson wrote:
EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
Heathansson wrote:

I hope they make Complete Fishwife this time. More splatbooks means I might finally get Complete Charcoal Maker, Complete Waddle Dauber, and Complete Linkboy.

And, Sewerscape would be snazzy.
Personally, I think a much better book would be "The Complete Book to Catering to Eileen". Leather edition available only.
"How to Serve Man.....we've translated it....it's...a cookbook!!!"

It's a shame you won't be able to benefit from the Complete How to Serve Man, your a friggin dog.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Heathansson wrote:
"How to Serve Man.....we've translated it....it's...a cookbook!!!"

Wait, there's some dust on the cover *whipes off dust* "How to Serve Men Dinner"

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