We've heard of the Tome of Treasures. Now we've got Blood and Fist or Complete Warrior for 4th edition:
If you want to live in a world where D&D only has the core rulebooks there's a very short window to play. One advantage to being an 'early adopter' I guess.
|
We've heard of the Tome of Treasures. Now we've got Blood and Fist or Complete Warrior for 4th edition
I had somehow gathered the impression they would be doing just a PHB, DMG, and MM each year, with other products focusing mainly on adventures. If there's going to be a huge proliferation of character option source books (again!) it's just that much less likely I'll "upgrade" when the time comes.
What is a "splat book"?
Maybe it's a book of short stories. Poetry?
What is a "splat book"?
A book with extra options and details for some subset of the game. "Splat" refers to the asterisk wildcard, as in "The Complete *" to refer to an unspecified entry in the series.
EDIT - there is nothing at that link that states it is a splat book BTW
160 pages, appropriate splat size
Calling it an expansion of the rules, focusing on martial only ...
Sounds like a splat to me.
Which is probably a major reason they're doing a fourth edition to begin with - how much longer could they really keep pumping out a splat book a month for 3.5e? As I posted somewhere or other a couple of months ago, they're not interested in publishing adventures anymore. Look at Eberron - there's something like 5 published adventures, 12 or 15 rule books, and 30+ novels.
Which is probably a major reason they're doing a fourth edition to begin with - how much longer could they really keep pumping out a splat book a month for 3.5e?
Ding, Ding, Ding.
Why come up with something new when you can reprint the old, slightly updated?
I hope nobody actually beleived there wouldn't be splat books. As long as they sell WOTC will print them. 4th edition will be marketed in the same manner....splat books gallore. They may put more emphasis on modules and other odds and ends as well this time around. DI will cover the computer end, nothing's changed. For those who want to buy it great....many will purchase everything and when they do, a significant population of these gamers won't buy into 5th edition because they already spent their money over the coarse of the 4th edition run. Which by the way is the exact same reason many of us playing 3.5 aren't interested. We already chose to buy a huge sum of books. Each edition makes it harder and harder for the game to survive yet another edition. Bleeding the market is eventually going to catch up with the game if it hasn't already.
|
Which is probably a major reason they're doing a fourth edition to begin with - how much longer could they really keep pumping out a splat book a month for 3.5e?Ding, Ding, Ding.
Why come up with something new when you can reprint the old, slightly updated?
That is a good thing.
You can only have so many expansions before they start looking like retreads or they start becoming more munhckin-esque.
EDIT - there is nothing at that link that states it is a splat book BTW
Umm...it says "Rules Expansion" right next to the title. I thought that was the very definition of a splatbook.
As far as I'm concerned, anything beyond the initial books necessary to play the game is splatbook. It might be a new monster book, psionics, DMG II, whatever. Although in the past I always thought folks referred to splatbooks as those they just printed which fell flat as in poorly done books in order to publish something.
I think what they said is that the PHB, DMG, and MM out each year would be considered "core". They are still committed to putting out at least a book a month. So it's 3.0/3.5 all over again.
This is what I don't get. What does it really mean to be a "core" book? Is it for the RPGA? After the initial release of PHB, DMG and MM isn't everything else just a "splatbook" of some flavor or another. If they are colling the other "core" just so they can leave a few things out of the PHB and put them into PHBII then that just irritates me. NOt that I'll be converting anytime soon since I have too many modules to run still and they are in 3.5 and I don't have the time to convert. I guess it just means that when I do finally convert there will be several "core" books and a multitude of "splatbook" avaliable.
Which is probably a major reason they're doing a fourth edition to begin with - how much longer could they really keep pumping out a splat book a month for 3.5e?Ding, Ding, Ding.
Why come up with something new when you can reprint the old, slightly updated?
How much of what we'll see in the 4E supplements do you think will be retread of the 3.0/3.5 supplements? I'm wondering if they'll just take some older campaign supplements, rip out the old crunch, insert new crunch, mix up the artwork a bit then *presto*, a brand new supplement! =(
|
|
I hope nobody actually beleived there wouldn't be splat books.
Wait! You mean they actually ARE going to do splat books?!? WTF! I was sure that 4E would see an end to that nonsense!! Those rat-bastards!
Please!, Please, please please, say it isn't so. Tell me everything will be all right.
*sniff*
|
|
Each edition makes it harder and harder for the game to survive yet another edition. Bleeding the market is eventually going to catch up with the game if it hasn't already.
I agree with everything you said except this. Geeks like to have the newest and the coolest of whatever they are into. Most gamers are geeks. The grognards and the luddites don't want the newest or the coolest. They revel in the outdated or well worn.
The market has a whole lot more geeks than grognards. If it did not then game shops would not stay in business. Heck - Games Workshop has shown that the geek factor is alive and well with multiple editions of Warhammer Fantasy Battle and 40K plus the rehash of the same figures for each new edition.
I hate to say it but we will buy new stuff all the time - even when the old stuff still has life left in it.
Each edition makes it harder and harder for the game to survive yet another edition. Bleeding the market is eventually going to catch up with the game if it hasn't already.
Which really makes it appealing to go with a rules system like Castle & Crusades which has some flexibility in allowing people to easily convert across systems. Notice, also, all of Wizards talk about how conversion from 3.5e addition is pretty much impossible. Of course it is, and I'm sure that's on purpose. Whether that's cynical on my part or just clever business on theirs, if people want to play 4e, they'll have to buy 4e stuff.
I hope nobody actually beleived there wouldn't be splat books.Wait! You mean they actually ARE going to do splat books?!? WTF! I was sure that 4E would see an end to that nonsense!! Those rat-bastards!
Please!, Please, please please, say it isn't so. Tell me everything will be all right.
Eileen said: Allright Aberzombie, everything will be all right! I heard that the splatbooks are each going to dedicate a chapter to how characters can avoid danger and death for the pitfalls of everything else the book contains. So yes, everything is going to be OK. As far as crying, don't be ashamed. It shows your sensitive, and that is hard to find in an undead these days.
*sniff*
** spoiler omitted **
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
|
I hope nobody actually beleived there wouldn't be splat books.Wait! You mean they actually ARE going to do splat books?!? WTF! I was sure that 4E would see an end to that nonsense!! Those rat-bastards!
Please!, Please, please please, say it isn't so. Tell me everything will be all right.
*sniff*
Please note: the above is an attempt at humor and sarcasm.
Very sarcastic, and very humorous. Well done!
(I was hoping they'd wait about a year before releasing the first splat book, though...)
(I was hoping they'd wait about a year before releasing the first splat book, though...)
Schoolgirl.
Just funnin' ya Larry.
Well, call me crazy, but this time round, it'll just be the Core Books- I'm not splatting my credit card all over again.
On a quasi-related note, GW have announced that they are ending their Black Industries Line, thereby ending their WHFRP and new 40K Dark Heresy RPG products. The reason? Because while both lines did really well, there's just a lot more money in novels (kinda similar to what a previous poster noted about Eberron). I'm sure if Hasbro could do something similar, they would.
Each edition makes it harder and harder for the game to survive yet another edition. Bleeding the market is eventually going to catch up with the game if it hasn't already.I agree with everything you said except this. Geeks like to have the newest and the coolest of whatever they are into. Most gamers are geeks. The grognards and the luddites don't want the newest or the coolest. They revel in the outdated or well worn.
The market has a whole lot more geeks than grognards. If it did not then game shops would not stay in business. Heck - Games Workshop has shown that the geek factor is alive and well with multiple editions of Warhammer Fantasy Battle and 40K plus the rehash of the same figures for each new edition.
I hate to say it but we will buy new stuff all the time - even when the old stuff still has life left in it.
Allow me to fill in the blanks on my statement...what I was trying to convey is that with each edition folks who really get into it and purchase a lot of those books are less likely to continue with future editions because they already spent their money. This doesn't mean everyone by any means. As we fans age, we see things from a different point of view (I am generalizing here) and the lure of buying into a new edition decreases overall. For those that never fall into this category, great, I a glad that they continue to enjoy the latest thing that comes out. I do think that many people who dropped 1-3 thousand on 3rd edition are less likely to buy 4th edtion. Those that spend that kind of money on 4th edition are overall, less likely to want to purchase 5th edition, and so on. That is what I meant by bleeding the market, nothing more. For those who like to and can afford to enjoy the latest edition after edition, nothing wrong with that at all.
edit: I don't know how much supplemental material is available to the games you mentioned. If a game provides a significantly less amount of support products, then yes, people are far more willing to accept forthcoming edition after edition. Heck, if I spent only a coupld hunderd dollars on a new edition, the money wouldn't even be an issue for me either. Spending what I did however is. So it depends upon how much you spent and what your comfort range is for buying. The more you buy of the previous edition, overall, the less comfort range one has.
|
|
I hope nobody actually beleived there wouldn't be splat books. As long as they sell WOTC will print them. 4th edition will be marketed in the same manner....splat books gallore. They may put more emphasis on modules and other odds and ends as well this time around. DI will cover the computer end, nothing's changed. For those who want to buy it great....many will purchase everything and when they do, a significant population of these gamers won't buy into 5th edition because they already spent their money over the coarse of the 4th edition run. Which by the way is the exact same reason many of us playing 3.5 aren't interested. We already chose to buy a huge sum of books. Each edition makes it harder and harder for the game to survive yet another edition. Bleeding the market is eventually going to catch up with the game if it hasn't already.
I think most people assumed that the yearly PHBs would fill this role. Apparently, they were wrong.
|
|
The grognards and the luddites don't want the newest or the coolest. They revel in the outdated or well worn.
The term grognard I can understand, but luddite? It seems to me that most geeks are the antithesis of that term - grognard or not. I know that I am not one, and I don't think many of the "grognards" on these boards are.
|
|
I agree with everything you said except this. Geeks like to have the newest and the coolest of whatever they are into.
I disagree.
Those you describe are more of the "fashion victims" type; geeks like to know all the obscure details and background info (other than most recent evolution) of whatever matter they're into, but they're also quite quick to complain about something gone wrong - let's just look at the Star Trek/Star Wars crowds.|
|
That is what I meant by bleeding the market, nothing more. For those who like to and can afford to enjoy the latest edition after edition, nothing wrong with that at all.
I agree - totally. But this is nothing new. I know folks that have drifted in and out of gaming because of this dynamic. From a game company's perspective I would assume it would not be economically viable to cater to the folks that slowly but surely stop buying product. I am sure they know they will lose customers with any new edition.
|
|
I agree with everything you said except this. Geeks like to have the newest and the coolest of whatever they are into.I disagree.
Those you describe are more of the "fashion victims" type; geeks like to know all the obscure details and background info (other than most recent evolution) of whatever matter they're into, but they're also quite quick to complain about something gone wrong - let's just look at the Star Trek/Star Wars crowds.
I am using geek in the tech context. I think you are thinking of otaku - or obsessive fanboys.
I hope nobody actually beleived there wouldn't be splat books. As long as they sell WOTC will print them. 4th edition will be marketed in the same manner....splat books gallore. They may put more emphasis on modules and other odds and ends as well this time around. DI will cover the computer end, nothing's changed. For those who want to buy it great....many will purchase everything and when they do, a significant population of these gamers won't buy into 5th edition because they already spent their money over the coarse of the 4th edition run. Which by the way is the exact same reason many of us playing 3.5 aren't interested. We already chose to buy a huge sum of books. Each edition makes it harder and harder for the game to survive yet another edition. Bleeding the market is eventually going to catch up with the game if it hasn't already.I think most people assumed that the yearly PHBs would fill this role. Apparently, they were wrong.
I think a lot of people wanted to beleive this because they were tired of the marketing methods of 3.5. WOTC said they would print the yearly thing and to my knowledge kinda left it unsaid after that.....which is another reason why folks wanted to believe it. My trust factor for WOTC has been low for some time now and my opinions are byassed. As a result of this byass, I never believed that they would actually avoid the splatbook routine. For those who were more trusting than I, I can see how the belief would develop that the yearly PH, DMG, and MM would cover the new stuff. Honestly, I wish they would drop the splatbook format. I miss the days of 1st edition where a new hardcover was a trasure, not a monthly purchase.
People like to have the newest and the coolest of whatever they are into.
Fixed that for you.
You don't have to be a geek to want the latest and greatest. Why do lease vehicles do so well? Because some men want want the latest and greatest car. Why do women's fashion change every year? Because some women have to have the latest and greatest clothes.
Back to WotC. This is a "ehh" to me. I'd be disappointed if they didn't do this.
I agree - totally. But this is nothing new. I know folks that have drifted in and out of gaming because of this dynamic. From a game company's perspective I would assume it would not be economically viable to cater to the folks that slowly but surely stop buying product. I am sure they know they will lose customers with any new edition.
Agreed. I'm a consumer so I see things through those eyes. WOTC is the provider and they will see things from a different point of view. Understandable. I know what you meant about gamers drifting in and out. I basically skipped 2nd edition and played something else, all except the last year. I got back into it because I was interested in 3.0. So this is a good statement as well.
I too was hoping that the yearly PHB, DMG, & MM, enhancement from the DDI, with an occasional splatbook would be it. But they are putting out other books at a pretty rapid rate. Never mind my bank account - are these going to be the same, poorly playtested, expansionist rules that overwhelm the game and make power players break the system? My intuition tells me yes (and I hope I'm wrong), but it makes me less excited about 4e.
|
|
I am using geek in the tech context. I think you are thinking of otaku - or obsessive fanboys.I agree with everything you said except this. Geeks like to have the newest and the coolest of whatever they are into.I disagree.
Those you describe are more of the "fashion victims" type; geeks like to know all the obscure details and background info (other than most recent evolution) of whatever matter they're into, but they're also quite quick to complain about something gone wrong - let's just look at the Star Trek/Star Wars crowds.
Semantics aside, this doen't change the fact that tech geeks have some built-in strong criticism too - compulsive buying habits are not the norm.
Also, it seems to me that comparing the "I'll get everything no matter what" kind of buyer to the known RPG market (which has always had strong ties to specific products and individual preferences, even related to a particular ruleset/setting) is quite wrong.
So, back to the original topic: we have 4E splatbooks, or something that looks so similar to them that's actually indistinguishable from the 3rd edition kind of stuff.
Prediction:
New core classes:
Barbarian (role: martial bezerker)
Hexblade (not quite sure on role yet)
Swashbuckler (again, not sure on role)
10 level Paragon classes and Epic classes that look surprisingly like PrCs
New feats (tactical, weapon style emphasized, sneak attack replacement feats, more racial weapon feats)
DMing advice on how to run a more martial oriented campaign.
New Weapons.
|
|
I too was hoping that the yearly PHB, DMG, & MM, enhancement from the DDI, with an occasional splatbook would be it. But they are putting out other books at a pretty rapid rate. Never mind my bank account - are these going to be the same, poorly playtested, expansionist rules that overwhelm the game and make power players break the system? My intuition tells me yes (and I hope I'm wrong), but it makes me less excited about 4e.
Ding-ding-ding! Poorly playtested?!? WOTC?!?! That's just crazy talk! Push the book through, let the idiots who buy it do the playtesting then release Errata for it that you need a subscription (DI) to access. Sound marketing strategy. And the majority will see what is going on and still get in line for the fleecing.
Barbarian and Druid are semi confirmed for the PHB 2. Both will use the 'nature' power source.
Barbarian and Druid are semi confirmed for the PHB 2. Both will use the 'nature' power source.
I thought was just ramblings of someone online and not something anyone from WotC said.
I do think that many people who dropped 1-3 thousand on 3rd edition are less likely to buy 4th edtion. Those that spend that kind of money on 4th edition are overall, less likely to want to purchase 5th edition, and so on. That is what I meant by bleeding the market, nothing more.
On the one hand I think you are right that there will be those who won't make the transition from 3E to 4E (obviously we have seen promises of that here) but I think the percentage will be smaller than the comments on the board right now would make it appear (I am basing that off of the fervor we saw during the transition from 2E to 3E).
Additionally I think looking to that last transition shows another very interesting point that I think refuts the base premise of your above statement. That is to say that the current 3E market is not the totality of the market for 4E. Ideally, the market will be enlarged with new players as well as old. So while there will most definately be those who still play older editions, we will also see those who now might make the jump from 2nd edition (just like we saw people who skipped 2nd edition AD&D). We'll see others who never change. And we will see new people come in. In the transition from 2nd to 3rd we actually saw the market grow far more than the numbers lost to those who didn't want to make the move (often because they had spent so much money on all the books or because WotC was turning the whole thing into a card game... yeah... that was the argument and it is just like the MMO thing now).
Anyway... if WotC is successful at growing the market with new people to a greater degree than it looses people who are unwilling to make the change (for whatever very legitimate reason... though I think this will be less than it looks like now) then the market is still grown, not reduced. For this reason I don't think the premise that additional editions fragment the market is a good one.
Sean Mahoney
Barbarian and Druid are semi confirmed for the PHB 2. Both will use the 'nature' power source.I thought was just ramblings of someone online and not something anyone from WotC said.
I don't know of any confirmation on this one, but I would be pretty shocked. It would seem to me that the best business model for PHB II would be to have in it a mix of familiar and new. This means bringing in those classes that we 'passed over' in the PHB I as well as some of the core classes familiar from the 'complete' series (like I would be surprised if the swashbuckler were not in PHB II) and then some brand new classes that fill a role not associated with a current power source (like a Divine Controller or Striker). Races could easily be this way as well. Things like the Half-Orc (I know it is promised on DDI but that doesn't prevent it from being printed either), the gnome and the like, some other old favorites (Genesai or whatever) as well as some brand new choices.
So yeah... I have no facts to back that up, but I would be shocked if the Barbarian and Druid did not make the PHB II.
Sean Mahoney
For those that thought that 4e would see less books, think again (Source Link):
Dungeons of Dread booster (D&D Miniatures Product): April 8 2008
D&D Miniatures Game Starter (D&D Miniatures Product): April 15, 2008
Keep on the Shadowfell: Adventure H1: May 20 2008
Player's Handbook: Jun 6, 2008
Dungeon Master's Guide: Jun 6, 2008
Monster Manual: Jun 6, 2008
Against the Giants: A Dungeons & Dragons Miniatures Huge pack: Jul 15, 2008
Dungeons & Dragons Character Record Sheets: Jul 15, 2008
Halls of the Giant Kings: Dungeon Tiles: Jul 15, 2008
Dungeons & Dragons Premium Dice: Jul 15, 2008
Thunderspire Labyrinth: Adventure H2: Jul 15, 2008
Dungeons & Dragons for Dummies: July 21, 2008
Dungeon Master's Screen: Aug 19, 2008
D&D Icons: Gargantuan Dracolich (D&D Miniatures Product) Aug 19, 2008
Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide: Aug 19, 2008
Pyramid of Shadows: Adventure H3: Aug 19, 2008
Forgotten Realms Player's Guide: Sep 16, 2008
Scepter Tower of Spellgard: Adventure FR1: Sep 16, 2008
Tome of Treasures (Suplement): Sep 16, 2008
Dungeon Master's Guide - Deluxe Edition: Oct 21, 2008
King of the Trollhaunt Warrens: Adventure P1: Oct 21, 2008
Martial Power (Rules Expansion): Oct 21, 2008
Monster Manual - Deluxe Edition: Oct 21, 2008
Player's Handbook - Deluxe Edition: A 4th Edition Core Rulebook: Oct 21, 2008
Urban Lairs: DU1 - Dungeon Tiles: Oct 21, 2008
You'll note that this doesn't include the preview books and there's only 3 things listed for the first 5 months of the year and nothing the last 2 months. Anyone that thought that 4E would have a reduction in the quantity of WotC books is kidding only themselves.
On the one hand I think you are right that there will be those who won't make the transition from 3E to 4E (obviously we have seen promises of that here) but I think the percentage will be smaller than the comments on the board right now would make it appear (I am basing that off of the fervor we saw during the transition from 2E to 3E).Eileen said:
I agree, there are some (perhaps many) who said "No" to 4th edition who will at one point or another change their minds.Sean said:
Additionally I think looking to that last transition shows another very interesting point that I think refuts the base premise of your above statement. That is to say that the current 3E market is not the totality of the market for 4E. Ideally, the market will be enlarged with new players as well as old. So while there will most definately be those who still play older editions, we will also see those who now might make the jump from 2nd edition (just like we saw people who skipped 2nd edition AD&D). We'll see others who never change. And we will see new people come in. In the transition from 2nd to 3rd we actually saw the market grow far more than the numbers lost to those who didn't want to make the move (often because they had spent so much money on all the books or because WotC was turning the whole thing into a card game... yeah... that was the argument and it is just like the MMO thing now).Eileen said:
In a post on this page with Crosswiredminded I mentioned that I skipped 2nd edition exccept for the very last year, and that was because I was excited about 3rd edition and wanted to get an early start. During the 2nd edition years I played another game. So yes you are correct in this being a factor. I was drawing generalization overall, it isn't possible to lump everyone in the same bag and I wouldn't want to do that because there are tons of different people, ways of playing, various budgets, etc.Sean Mahoney said:
Anyway... if WotC is successful at growing the market with new people to a greater degree than it looses people who are unwilling to make the change (for whatever very legitimate reason... though I think this will be less than it looks like now) then the market is still grown, not reduced. For this reason I don't think the premise that additional editions fragment the market is a good one. Sean Mahoney
Eileen said:
Not sure about agreeing on the last point, but that's OK. They make increase the overall audience and that is good. I'm just not convinced there method of going about it is the best overall interest in the game when looking at it down the road over the next 10+ years. I think they are momentarily bettering their sales....yes. But each splinter (edition) causes more and more factions in the long run, which I think is bad for the game overall when looking at a lengthy time span.|
|
For those that thought that 4e would see less books, think again (Source Link):
Big Friggin List of stuffYou'll note that this doesn't include the preview books and there's only 3 things listed for the first 5 months of the year and nothing the last 2 months. Anyone that thought that 4E would have a reduction in the quantity of WotC books is kidding only themselves.
I count 11 books (3 of which are deluxe repeats), about 6 adventures, a few dungeon tile packs, some miniature booster sets, a pack of character sheets, a DM screen, some dice, and an Iconic mini. Did I miss anything?
Personally, I'd rather see the number of books and the number of adventures reversed.
I count 11 books (3 of which are deluxe repeats)
Ok, ignore all the minis, dungeon tiles, adventures, and deluxe repeats (and the dice, screen, etc). Nothing but the books. That's 8 books in 5 months or 1.6 books per month.
I don't see that as a reduction.
