This thread is for all you PCs out there who are tired of rolling a 1 and failing. Or are tired of being told you have to roll a Search check to grab a coin purse off a dead thief's belt.
This thread is for every PC who has ever tried to put some flavor in his fighting by describing his actions, only to be penalized by the DM with negative modifiers due to "not swinging the sword right."
This thread is for every PC who tried to be creative and was told, "nope, that's not how we play D&D."
So PCs: Cry out against the DM tyranny!
Tell us your stories of bad DMing and how you wish it had been done right!
PCs UNITE!!!!
Now I'm standing on a cliff and there is this critter flying outside of my reach bombing me with fireballs or something. I really REALLY want to be able to jump of a cliff, hit an annoying critter flying in the air with my huge axe and live to tell about it, maybe with some help from feather fall afterwards. But nope. They wont let me do it. Or maybe jump towards him, grapple him in the air and fall with him to a certain death, that would be nice too.
Now I'm standing on a cliff and there is this critter flying outside of my reach bombing me with fireballs or something. I really REALLY want to be able to jump of a cliff, hit an annoying critter flying in the air with my huge axe and live to tell about it, maybe with some help from feather fall afterwards. But nope. They wont let me do it. Or maybe jump towards him, grapple him in the air and fall with him to a certain death, that would be nice too.
"That's not how we play D&D, Salama. Now sit still while I TPK all of you Little Upstarts." - DM
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Now I'm standing on a cliff and there is this critter flying outside of my reach bombing me with fireballs or something. I really REALLY want to be able to jump of a cliff, hit an annoying critter flying in the air with my huge axe and live to tell about it, maybe with some help from feather fall afterwards. But nope. They wont let me do it. Or maybe jump towards him, grapple him in the air and fall with him to a certain death, that would be nice too.
Why woouldn't you be allowed to try this? This is one of those cool combat moments that, if successful, would be talked about in future sessions for years to come. Plus, it seems like it would be really fun to try.
From my perspective as a DM, I would allow the attempt - as long as the critter is within your jump range (if he's 50 feet away, or is above you, I'd probably have to say you'd need some magical help).
It would entail a Jump check, then a Tumble check (or a Dex check with a high DC), followed by a modified attack roll (If you succeed at the Jump and Tumble checks). The critter would probably get an attack of opportunity as you fell past him, too. Feather fall is a swift action, so you could do that after your attack, provided you haven't already used your swift action this round.
It may not be RAW, but these little maneuvers are what makes D&D fun!
Im sure 99% of the complaints will come from this: DMs who want a skill check roll for every simple thing.
If you are a DM and dont want your players to hate you dont let them make climb checks just to go up a 10 foot lader or a dexterity check to eat without stabbing yourself in the eye with a fork.
Taking a coin purse off a dead rogue doesnt need a roll. A Search check is when you pat him down or look for hidden goodies in his boots.
A diplomacy check isnt required every time to talk to someone. Ive had bad DMs have bartenders and shopkeeps spit in my PCs face because I rolled low diplomacy.
Ride checks should only be used for fancy stuff. Riding into town and having the DM make you roll so you fall off the saddle is just the DM being a prat.
Yea, I always thought that jump is quite useless skill if you can't do awesome stuff like that with it =). Besides, I'd be willing to sacrifice my character for that move. Maybe assasins death attack and a true srike to buff it, thus killing the big bad end guy with a tremendous leap to my own death... That would be a good way to go =). Anyways, according to RAW, it doesn't work that way I quess. I could jump and if I survive the drop, I can hit something when I've reached the ground.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Im sure 99% of the complaints will come from this: DMs who want a skill check roll for every simple thing.
If you are a DM and dont want your players to hate you dont let them make climb checks just to go up a 10 foot lader or a dexterity check to eat without stabbing yourself in the eye with a fork.
Taking a coin purse off a dead rogue doesnt need a roll. A Search check is when you pat him down or look for hidden goodies in his boots.
A diplomacy check isnt required every time to talk to someone. Ive had bad DMs have bartenders and shopkeeps spit in my PCs face because I rolled low diplomacy.
Ride checks should only be used for fancy stuff. Riding into town and having the DM make you roll so you fall off the saddle is just the DM being a prat.
Well said.
The only time I make my players roll a skill check is if it's something out of the ordinary, or if they're trying to bluff someone and what they're role-playing doesn't sound quite believeable. Other than that, let common sense rule and keep the game moving.
Oh yeah...And rolling a 1 in combat being a "critical fumble".
Theres a reason its not in the core rules anymore.
Its bad enough I have a 1 in 20 chance of missing no matter how many bonuses I have...I need to have DMs who pull out their Critical Fumble charts where my weapon breaks or I cut out my own eyeball or throw my weapon across the room or stab a friend.
I had a DM who told me upon rolling a 1 that I swing my sword and miss...I instead hit the dungeon wall so hard my arm broke and the bone was protruding.
WHAT?
Eagerly awaits his critical fumble deck.
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as a player ive been in some really dumb situations.
we had just defeated a dragon and im a Minator/barbarian.
in the campaign dragon blood healed like an elixir of life, and we all knew that, so i drew my masterwork magic great sword and attack the dead dragon body. My Dm Makes me make an attack roll and i try to argue that its a dead none moving body. He insist so i do so, and i roll my magic dice and get a 1 (of course.) so the dm describes my character instead of making a slash i plunge my sword into the dragon all the way to the hilt.
Im not particularly happy at this moment that the dm changed my entire action because of a roll but i am forced to go along with it. so i make a check to withdraw my sword form the body. Picking up the dice i roll them to display another 1. so the dm says that i instead of pulling i push out of confusion and the sword is stuck in the body deeper then i can reach.
im not happy so the dm makes a trap door release below me to make me leave the room. AND MY SWORD.
PC UNITE.
im not happy so the dm makes a trap door release below me to make me leave the room. AND MY SWORD.PC UNITE.
What the... Most of our games I'm the DM. I've never done anything like this, but still I'm ashamed of myself. They give DM's a bad name...
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I had a DM who told me upon rolling a 1 that I swing my sword and miss...I instead hit the dungeon wall so hard my arm broke and the bone was protruding. WHAT?
I had a GM rule that when my archer rolled a one, she broke her bowstring and her magical bow had to be specially repaired and *re-enchanted.*
Grr.
In a battle between 1000 Elves and 1000 Goblins, every round 50 of each group will Critically Fumble and hit themselves (and, assuming that they are 1st level Warriors, quite probably kill themselves).
Statistically, no war will ever last more than 20 combat rounds, and that's if *none of the combatants manage to hit each other!* They'll critically fumble themselves to death!
Oh yeah...And rolling a 1 in combat being a "critical fumble".
Theres a reason its not in the core rules anymore.
Its bad enough I have a 1 in 20 chance of missing no matter how many bonuses I have...I need to have DMs who pull out their Critical Fumble charts where my weapon breaks or I cut out my own eyeball or throw my weapon across the room or stab a friend.
I had a DM who told me upon rolling a 1 that I swing my sword and miss...I instead hit the dungeon wall so hard my arm broke and the bone was protruding.
WHAT?
As a DM, I always had the players make a balance check if they fumble. If they failed, a wild swing threw them off balance and they fell. If they succeeded, then they kept from falling and I just leave it at that. I haven't had any complaints.
Down with Critical Fumbles!!!
A 1 is a miss?......
I agree.
I accept.
A 1 is a Fumble?....
Shenannigans!!!
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actually i have a campaign to play 2night and we have a debate on a dumb dm moment.
i have an elf ranger/wizard. i read scroll of true strike and i am attempting to shot into a tent at a shadow with a +20 to hit.
I am attempting to shoot into a tent at a shadow of a person with my long bow for 40ft.
my dm is arguing that the rules on true-sight detail that you must have a line of site to the target. my point is the shadow is that target, should i get the +20 or not?
please state your point and explain = )Ty
As a DM, I always had the players make a balance check if they fumble. If they failed, a wild swing threw them off balance and they fell. If they succeeded, then they kept from falling and I just leave it at that. I haven't had any complaints.
Our house rule is that on a natural 1 (on attacks) you make opposed Dex checks with anyone who threatens you. If you win, you're fine. If you lose, they get an attack of opportunity (the regular kind - i.e. if they've used up their allotment for the round, then there's no AoO). So a natural 1 for a non-threatened ranged attack is only an auto-miss.
Greg
my dm is arguing that the rules on true-sight detail that you must have a line of site to the target. my point is the shadow is that target, should i get the +20 or not?
I'd give you the +20 but I'd also give you a circumstance penalty (like a -2, maybe a -4, but no more).
...a dexterity check to eat without stabbing yourself in the eye with a fork...
Hey, that's a pretty good idea...I'll use it for my next session.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Yeah!
I was playing in a TimeMaster / StarAce game, and my character had learned telekinesis. Now, in a "Star Wars" moment, the game designers had decided that the amount of weight lifted didn't factor into the difficulty of the roll. I wanted to telekinetically pick up that airplane-sized shuttlecraft, 200 yeards away, and drop it on the guards standing 20' away from it, who were also about 200 feet away.
Roll.
Close, but a miss.
The GM decides the I had managed to lift the shuttlecraft, but had accidentally dropped it on the party. TPK. (Well, we were all dead. This was before terms like "TPK" were used.)
Of course, this was 18 years ago, but it still burns like it was this morning!
What is this "life" thing that people keep speaking about?
Bwahahaha!!!
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I'd count it as shooting at an Incorporeal or Invisible creature. 25% or better miss chance (actually, I'd probably use the actual distance between you and the target as the miss chance, so 41-50% depending on how big the tent is)actually i have a campaign to play 2night and we have a debate on a dumb dm moment.
i have an elf ranger/wizard. i read scroll of true strike and i am attempting to shot into a tent at a shadow with a +20 to hit.
I am attempting to shoot into a tent at a shadow of a person with my long bow for 40ft.
my dm is arguing that the rules on true-sight detail that you must have a line of site to the target. my point is the shadow is that target, should i get the +20 or not?
please state your point and explain = )Ty
yes i am trying to pinpoint my target by the shadow, and when i read the true strike spell it is defined
-you actually get a for-sight into your next attack and you can see just where the person will be during your attack that is the justification for the +20so with all that i am arguing that i can see where exactly my opponent is gunna be at that exact moment. i dont mind a slight (-) modifier but my dm wants to just shut down the entire action by just saying that my true strike doesnt work.
Our house rule is that on a natural 1 (on attacks) you make opposed Dex checks with anyone who threatens you. If you win, you're fine. If you lose, they get an attack of opportunity (the regular kind - i.e. if they've used up their allotment for the round, then there's no AoO). So a natural 1 for a non-threatened ranged attack is only an auto-miss.Greg
I like that a lot! I'ma give it a shot.
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My fumbles:
Roll of a 1 forces a DEX check (2nd edition). Failure of the Dex check results in a "Dramatically appropriate" consequence. Could result in slipping in blood and falling prone, stumbling causing AC penalty, etc.
Rolling a 20 on the DEX check (remember, this is 2nd Edition) results in a MAJOR fumble which is "dramatically appropriate" and leads to things as weapon breakage and more.
A 1 is a Fumble?....
What if you had to roll to confirm the fumble? :) Then you only have a 1 in 400 chance of dropping your sword (stabbing yourself is stupid and nigh-impossible).
I've seen students of western martial arts lose their grip (not necessarily drop, but lose control enough to have lost a standard action to reset) on their weapons from time to time, but it's much more rare than 1 in 20.
I make people roll to confirm a fumble--otherwise it's a 'nearly fumble'. As I see it twice means you're just plain unlucky that time.
Also I'm not of the DM vs. player school--I like seeing them overcome the odds and do heroic and clever things. Besides it goes both ways--now and then a major villain will be taken out by some dumb little low level spell you didn't see coming.
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I'd count it as shooting at an Incorporeal or Invisible creature. 25% or better miss chance (actually, I'd probably use the actual distance between you and the target as the miss chance, so 41-50% depending on how big the tent is)
I agree. A shadow can be distorted and not necessarily reflect the exact position of the creature. It still means you have a pretty good idea the where the creature is at though.
I would allow the spell, impose a 25% miss chance due to distortion, and call it day.
The spell does state it grants foresight but in this case I would say you can't really see the exact position of the creature. As you said, the shadow is your target and I would allow you to target the spell on the shadow with the assumption you can probably hit your opponent.
Oh yeah...And rolling a 1 in combat being a "critical fumble".
I use these. What's the problem? It's only a critical if confirmed, and the confirmed chances I use are very small. But now I'm hearing on various fora about people that dislike confirmation rolls. Have a ride in the wambulence.
Theres a reason its not in the core rules anymore.
I'm not quite sure why that reason is.
Its bad enough I have a 1 in 20 chance of missing no matter how many bonuses I have...
I can't speak for other systems people run, but in the games I run, it depends on your character's level. The higher level you are, the less likely it is you'll fumble, and eventually upon attaining high enough level, the percentage chance drops to 0. The confirmation check I use is 20%-1% per character level. One can set this to any variable you want, but 20% has always felt right for me. Less than one in five 1st level characters will confirm a natural 1 (19% chance).
The 4th level Fumble spell also affect this percentage confirmation chance, by automatically forcing a check as long as you stay within its AOE. So much for the Fumble spell being a forgotten and seldom-used spell choice for mages.
I need to have DMs who pull out their Critical Fumble charts where my weapon breaks or I cut out my own eyeball or throw my weapon across the room or stab a friend.
There are results for fumbling, and then there are stupid results for fumbling. These examples are examples of the latter.
I had a DM who told me upon rolling a 1 that I swing my sword and miss...I instead hit the dungeon wall so hard my arm broke and the bone was protruding.
WHAT?
Was it excessive to break your arm on a swing? Probably. It's much more probable your sword would have broken on a 1 crit than your arm.
Here is why I suck as a DM...
We use it for the players and the monsters so everyone gets owned.
Feel free to print it out an give it to you DM.
FUMBLE CHART
Once a one has been rolled the rollees turn ends and they get
no further actions this round. The penalties detailed last for the reaminder
of the current round and untill the end of the next round unless specifed.
1 Crit self roll a confirmed cirt.
2 yield 10ft or suffer free attack (not an Attack of Opportunity)
3 small flying creature attacks you until killed (4 HP, bite +3, 1d4 damage, AC 17)
4 chaos in combat! cause nearest ally to change places with opponent
5 distracted: -2 to AC for 1 round
6 deflect enemy attack with personal gear; random item destroyed.
7 yield 10ft or suffer enemy hit (you do not provoke Attacks of Opportunity)
8 check morale; CHA check DC 15 or run in fear until save is successful
9 hesitate; Turn ends now!
10 hit by flying bits for 1d10 damage
11 Suffer hic-ups: +/- d3 on each swing until end of combat (odd-neg)
12 enemy slobber lands in eye; blind 1 round
13 A sudden burst of adrenaline causes you to miss and wee your pants a little.
14 hesitate; make only a partial action this round.
15 stumble; force opponent back 10ft (does not provoke AoO from or to YOU)
16 Pulled groin muscle: only partial actions until10 minutes is spent resting
17 footwear malfunctions; balance check DC 15 or trip & fall
18 your near miss causes nearest ally to make WILL save DC (your HD + damage attack could have caused) or freeze in terror 1 round
19 gag; -2 to AC next round.
20 you cause massive chaos forcing all adjacent combatants to fumble
21 Fling weapon random direction and speed / distance.
22 fall; hurt foot 1d4 dam , movement 1/2 until healed (odd-left)
23 stumble back 5 ft (does provoke Attacks of Opportunity)
24 Open self to an Attack of Opportunity from all applicable foes
25 sneeze: -3 to AC for 1 round
26 force ally to yield ground (10 ft) or hit ally (ally open to Attacks of Opportunity)
27 Totally smash weapon into tiny bits
28 sweat in eyes -6 to hit for one round
29 knock heads with opponent; both make CON check DC 15 or stunned 1 round
30 armor binds and jammed -2 to AC until repaired/ clothing tangles and rips
31 suffer seizure; Twitch for 1 round - counts as flatfooted.
32 trousers fall/robes tangle/armor slides; no movement or DEX check DC 15 for 1/4 move
33 armor fails; -2 to AC until repaired
34 weapon badly damaged -3 to hit/damage until repaired
35 bad follow-through; Move 5ft to right/left accepting any Attacks of Opportunity
36 itch; WIS check DC 15 or spend next round scratching (-2 to AC)
37 Make DEX check DC 15 to avoid attack but cause nearest ally to fumble
38 sneeze: phlegm hits opponent in eye; foe loses DEX and Dodge bonuses to AC next round
39 lose wind; cumulative -2 to hit/damage per round until 1 round of rest
40 distraction; must defend for round.
41 weapon lodged in random object: roll STR DC 10 + 1d20 to recover
42 chaos in combat; you and all beings in your threatened area roll fumbles
43 Roll opposed Bluff/Intimidate to keep opponent from taking free attack
44 Sweat/blood/bile/gore gets in eyes; blind for 1 - 3 rounds
45 no opening found; lose attack(s) this round
46 fall; hurt wrist 1d4 damage and hand useless until healed (odd-left)
47 hit friend; Max Sunder damage on their weapon:
48 enemy assault causes you to withdraw 10ft (provokes a max of one AoO)
49 hit friend roll dam; have him roll fumble and lose all attacks this round
50 confusion during melee causes you & opponent to switch places
51 fall; hurt leg 1d6 dam , movement 1/4 until healed (odd-left)
52 Stumble over face first prone.
53 roll STR DC 15 or lose grip on weapon - flies free
54 dropped your guard--dooh!; enemy gets free Attack of Opportunity
55 Totally shatter weapon
56 trip and fall whacking head : stunned 1-3 rounds
57 hit friend; damage their weapon (Roll damage Vs their weapon, to Sunder)
58 stumble: DEX check DC 15 or fall
59 out of breath: CON check DC 15 or -3 to all actions until 1 round of rest
60 off balance: DEX check DC 12 or no action next round
61 hesitate: Limited to 5ft move next turn and nothng else.
62 bite tongue: no speech and no action for 1 round
63 bad grip causes you to suffer - 4 to hit until one round spent regripping
64 Totally shatter weapon
65 slip and drop defenses: 1 opponent gets 1 free attack .
66 hit friend; cause ally lose next attack
67 weapon damaged -2 to hit/damage until repaired
68 hit self for 1- 100 % of max damage
69 massive fumble disrupts combat; re-roll initiative & start new round
70 Throw weapon hard and far
71 lose grip; drop weapon near
72Sudden feeling of impending doom - 6 to all rolls for next 3 rounds.
73 weapon damaged -1 to hit/damage until repaired
74 break weapon in half
75 worst move in ages:-4 to attack rolls for one round
76 bad miss;- weapon tp breaks off.
77 stagger about ; opponent gets AoO
78 lose grip: roll DEX DC 15 or drop weapon
79 disarmed; opponent can recover weapon if desired! (doesn’t provoke AoO)
80 hit friend; damage armor/clothing/hide, -1d3 to AC;
81 bad follow-through; swing leaves you Flat footed until your next turn
82 Break weapon off at hilt.
83 stumble 10ft d8 for random direction, cause all you collide with to fumble (doesn’t provoke AoO)
84 weapon tangled with opponent: No attack for either of you next round
85 weapon knocked away: d8 for direction, d10 distance in feet
86 Freee in place - all enemys in range get AoO
87 distracted: -3 to AC for 1 round
88 weapon breaks in half vertically.
89 hit self: half damage
90 hit self: normal damage
91 hit self:critical
92 twist ankle: 1/2 movement till healed, DEX check DC 15 or fall
93 hit friend: half damage
94 hit friend: normal damage
95 hit friend - Critical
96 Fling weapon at enemy
97 Fling weapon at friend
98 weapon explodes into tiny fragments.
99 roll 1d3+1 times and suffer
100 Chosen of the Gods Roll 3 confirmed criticals on up to 3 targets of yor choice.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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i have an elf ranger/wizard. i read scroll of true strike and i am attempting to shot into a tent at a shadow with a +20 to hit.
I am attempting to shoot into a tent at a shadow of a person with my long bow for 40ft.
my dm is arguing that the rules on true-sight detail that you must have a line of site to the target. my point is the shadow is that target, should i get the +20 or not?
please state your point and explain = )Ty
yes i am trying to pinpoint my target by the shadow, and when i read the true strike spell it is defined
-you actually get a for-sight into your next attack and you can see just where the person will be during your attack that is the justification for the +20so with all that i am arguing that i can see where exactly my opponent is gunna be at that exact moment. i dont mind a slight (-) modifier but my dm wants to just shut down the entire action by just saying that my true strike doesnt work.
Sure it should work, there is no reason why it shouldn't. You can quite obviously see your target. I would however impose a - also, most probably a -2/-4, as the tent distorts the exact position of the target slightly and can make the target look larger than they are depending on where the light source inside the tent is.
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actually i have a campaign to play 2night and we have a debate on a dumb dm moment.
i have an elf ranger/wizard. i read scroll of true strike and i am attempting to shot into a tent at a shadow with a +20 to hit.
I am attempting to shoot into a tent at a shadow of a person with my long bow for 40ft.
my dm is arguing that the rules on true-sight detail that you must have a line of site to the target. my point is the shadow is that target, should i get the +20 or not?
please state your point and explain = )Ty
From the SRD
Total Concealment
If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).
You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.
The rules do state you need line of sight for a ranged attack, but this still sounds very much like what you're trying to accomplish. The 50% miss chance is higher than the 20% or so I've seen some people suggest. Still, this is what I'd use if I were DMing your case.
Drew Garrett
actually i have a campaign to play 2night and we have a debate on a dumb dm moment.
i have an elf ranger/wizard. i read scroll of true strike and i am attempting to shot into a tent at a shadow with a +20 to hit.
I am attempting to shoot into a tent at a shadow of a person with my long bow for 40ft.
my dm is arguing that the rules on true-sight detail that you must have a line of site to the target. my point is the shadow is that target, should i get the +20 or not?
please state your point and explain = )Ty
I'd definitely give you the +20 to hit the shadow. HOWEVER...
Since your "real" target is the creature casting the shadow, I'd also invoke the rule for 100% cover since you can't really see it. In other words, the creature would get a bonus to its AC and you'd have a miss chance.
The reason for this is simple: A shadow is almost never the same size as its caster, which creates a chance that you'll miss. Also, it is not necessarily true that the creature casting the shadow is in your line of fire. The only way this would be possible is if the creature you're trying to shoot is standing directly between you and the light source creating the shadow. It is reasonable to assume the creature might be a little off to the side, so you're not guaranteed to hit it.
Good luck on that shot, though.
Oops, Drew beat me to the punch. I fully concur. You know where your target is by virtue of the shadow, but that target has total concealment, thus the 50% miss chance. After all, shadows on tent walls can be distorted.
However, if it's a very tiny tent with a very clear shadow, I might give you a slight bonus on the concealment roll, maybe a 40% miss chance instead of 50%. Then again, I am a DM who dislikes big gaps. My houserules include modifiers of -1 to -10 for cover.
"Statistically, no war will ever last more than 20 combat rounds, and that's if *none of the combatants manage to hit each other!* They'll critically fumble themselves to death!"
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As a math major, I feel obligated to point out that this is not true.
Even though the chances of rolling a 1 are 1 in 20, the chances of having rolled a 1 after 20 rolls is NOT 100%.
If I recall my probability correctly, it is 1 - (0.95)^20, which works out to be about 64%.
Losing an eye this way would be talked about for years.
Sure would!
Guy it happened to: "You guys remember that one DM we used to play with? The guy was an idiot, it was like he was TRYING to make the game less fun."
Rules Lawyer: "Even I think this is rediculous. If I have a 5% of severly hurting my self every time I use a weapon I would never do it. Swinging swords is MUCH to dangerous in this world."
Others in unison: "I am really glad we ditched that game and started our own with out him!"
Sean Mahoney
Here is why I suck as a DM...
We use it for the players and the monsters so everyone gets owned.
Feel free to print it out an give it to you DM.
The problem with that logic is that if a monster gets owned and dies, no big deal, you have a limitless supply. Not so for the PCs... they only have one of their well crafted characters they are putting at risk. MUCH bigger deal when this happens to a PC than when it happens to a critter.
Sean Mahoney
"Statistically, no war will ever last more than 20 combat rounds, and that's if *none of the combatants manage to hit each other!* They'll critically fumble themselves to death!"
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As a math major, I feel obligated to point out that this is not true.
Even though the chances of rolling a 1 are 1 in 20, the chances of having rolled a 1 after 20 rolls is NOT 100%.
If I recall my probability correctly, it is 1 - (0.95)^20, which works out to be about 64%.
True, though still, applying fumble rules to large groups of people would bring pretty strange results...first round, 5% of the army cripples itself/someone near with a fumble...second round, 5% of those still operational cripple themselves or someone near...even without any enemies, all armies would just decay away.
And if the army is made of really skilled people with more than one attack per round, the decay of the army is even faster :) Hooray for logic!Bit like those amusing random encounter tables in RuneQuest, where you had something like 1/10000 chance of wandering into spirit dimension. In a village of 100 people, every year in average 3,65 people would disappear like this.
We've always used fumbles in both our groups, regardless of who's DMing. It's not only considered acceptable behavior, it is demanded by the players (at one point I even asked my players about getting rid of them, and the unilateral response was "hell, no!") That said, a 1 has never made an automatic Bad Thing, just a potential Bad Thing. We have always rolled for severity of some description.
I suspect a lot of it comes from being Rolemaster players (our game of choice right up until 3.x came out, where it became our second game of choice, if only because 3.x is microscopically less hassle to set up and slightly quicker to run). In Rolemaster, of course, you can fumble and critically succeed on pretty much anything. A Hobbit with a bent knife could plausibly (though not probably) kill Morgoth with one stroke, assuming he made enough Resistance Rolls and such to get close enough to take a swing and Morgoth didn't have all the simirils in his crown making him unable to fumble himself (that's how powerfully integral fumbles are in Rolemaster, you have to have the simirils to be able to not fumble! No wonder everyone wanted 'em!)) I don't think you can easily kill yourself in RM with a fumble; a few of the top results give you a 'D' severity critical ('A' is the least severe, 'E' is the worst on the table), but the chances of you actually killing yourself even then, assuming a high-fumble weapons of say, 01-08 on D200, you're looking at 0.000008% of doing a max D crit to yourself. Most weapons have a fumble of around 02-04 to boot.
I've used various methods over the years, even converting (and heavily toning down) the Rolemaster fumble tables (stun in D&D is worse than in RM, for example). At the moment thought, I've settled back into the standard practise of after rolling a 1, you make a second roll and the DM decides how mean he's feeling today. (Most of the time, unless you roll really low the second time, you just miss).
Rolemaster critical charts where always so fun to read!
Critical on an ice spell, "Target freezes solid, falls back 10 ft. and shatters into a million pieces."
I remember some of the others that concluded with things like "You are ready to slay." I hated getting critted, but you couldn't argue with the descriptions!
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Here is why I suck as a DM...
We use it for the players and the monsters so everyone gets owned.
Feel free to print it out an give it to you DM.The problem with that logic is that if a monster gets owned and dies, no big deal, you have a limitless supply. Not so for the PCs... they only have one of their well crafted characters they are putting at risk. MUCH bigger deal when this happens to a PC than when it happens to a critter.
Sean Mahoney
Not to mention that each PC will roll attack rolls in over 200 encounters over their career if you assume 10 encounters per level. Roll a d20 200 times and see how many times you roll a one. Then figure out that fighters will roll 5ish times(much more at higher levels but I don't wanna do hard math right now) per encounter and look at 1000 rolls of the d20. Then roll that many times on the chart and see what your chart has wrought. And the PCs are supposed to continue on in their adventure? A monster crits itself and dies, no biggie. A PC doing it could result in death and leave the party suddenly in over their head.
I find this rule and chart to be ridiculous. I would refuse to play at such a table.
Here's how I'll be handling critical fumbles in my next game:
- Critical Fumble: If you roll a natural 1, you will need to roll again. If you fail to hit the target’s number a second time, you fumble and draw from the Critical Fumble Deck. You’re heroes, but even heroes screw up.
Will it piss some people off, maybe, but at least there's a chance that you just miss.
Here's how I'll be handling critical fumbles in my next game:
- Critical Fumble: If you roll a natural 1, you will need to roll again. If you fail to hit the target’s number a second time, you fumble and draw from the Critical Fumble Deck. You’re heroes, but even heroes screw up.
Will it piss some people off, maybe, but at least there's a chance that you just miss.
Just a note to consider - we tried this for a bit (re-rolling against AC to confirm a fumble) and when an opponent has a very high AC, this really makes life difficult, as fumbles can occur very frequently. Try it, but you may find that the fumble deck comes into play more often than your players like. Maybe make it a Dex roll, or Reflex save against an appropriate DC or something. Fumbles will still occur, but it won't be nearly as often and nearly as "un-fun" as rolling against AC to confirm will.
Just a suggestion.
Greg
A 1 is a Fumble?....
What if you had to roll to confirm the fumble? :) Then you only have a 1 in 400 chance of dropping your sword (stabbing yourself is stupid and nigh-impossible).
I've seen students of western martial arts lose their grip (not necessarily drop, but lose control enough to have lost a standard action to reset) on their weapons from time to time, but it's much more rare than 1 in 20.
That's how I (and the other DM/Player of our group) play it. It creates a little "D'ho" momment after rolling the first One usually followed by an "OUF!" but if the other one is a One your ass is mine!
I usually use the opportunity to have fun (non-deadly) stuff happen, the "hit-friend" option is as far as I go. Usually dropping a weapon (following the "grenade-like missile" miss chart), breaking a bow-string (only needs a craft-check, no re-enchanting stuff). Terrain-type is usually a good source of inspiration.
With a 1 in 400 chance I don't get complains from the Players when it happens even if it causes trouble.
I like the falling prone or causing an AoO option, I'll keep them in mind.
This said, that "Critical Fumble Deck" sounds tasty ...
Just a note to consider - we tried this for a bit (re-rolling against AC to confirm a fumble) and when an opponent has a very high AC, this really makes life difficult, as fumbles can occur very frequently. Try it, but you may find that the fumble deck comes into play more often than your players like. Maybe make it a Dex roll, or Reflex save against an appropriate DC or something. Fumbles will still occur, but it won't be nearly as often and nearly as "un-fun" as rolling against AC to confirm will.
Just a suggestion.
Greg
I'll keep it in mind, but it's a long ways off. I'm barely through the second part of Skinsaw.
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As a DM, I always had the players make a balance check if they fumble. If they failed, a wild swing threw them off balance and they fell. If they succeeded, then they kept from falling and I just leave it at that. I haven't had any complaints.Our house rule is that on a natural 1 (on attacks) you make opposed Dex checks with anyone who threatens you. If you win, you're fine. If you lose, they get an attack of opportunity (the regular kind - i.e. if they've used up their allotment for the round, then there's no AoO). So a natural 1 for a non-threatened ranged attack is only an auto-miss.
Greg
Very close to my house rule. If you roll a 1, you need to make a DC 15 reflex save or provoke an AoO from all threatening enemies (if they have one remaining). This seems to happen more to enemies than to PCs, so I've never had a complaint.
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On the shadow subject, I would rule same as bubbagump. The shadow is only going to describe a line to your real target if the target is directly between the light source and the shooter. Otherwise, shooting at where the shadow is projected on the tent wall is probably not going to hit the caster of the shadow.
Your character obviously knows the target is in the tent because of the shadow. But shooting at him through a cloth wall based on where his shadow is being cast, is essentially shooting blind.
Now if the material of the tent is at all transparent (like modern nylon tents) you might be able to see the target directly because of the light in the tent. If this was the case, I'd still give the target diminished cover. I doubt that would be the case with a true canvas tent though.
Maybe I suck as a DM. :)