I ran out of ideas for titles. Bail me out here people.
Less stuff to carry around.
Quicker gameplay.
Less confusing grappling.
No Gnomes (you heard me).
Easier for younger players to understand (as a new parent, this might jive with me).
Rules intended for smooth integration with video games.
Discuss.
I'm probably just going to put up a Pros/Cons of 4E on my Gleemax page, but I'll post my thoughts on it here.
First of all, I like how the races are being designed. Well, so far anyway, since we've only seen official stats on the elf at this point. I like how the races will supposedly have a higher level of impact on character design than just at 1st-level.
I like the option to take racial feats to expand on what your race grants you, allowing it to impact you at all levels of play.
I dont mind gnome being out of the PH, but not because its in the MM. From a design standpoint I can see why they would want to include a more diverse array of races in the initial release rather than a bunch of fast or tough races.
No level adjustment is great. The mechanic was technically functional, with quirks.
Going on to classes, the fact that each class gets a stated role should help out players determine what the class's function is for combat applications.
Since a large part of most D&D games is combat, I like how classes are being worked to be functional during that element of the game without affecting the more social elements. Basically, one class isnt useless in specific situations, so more people get to actually have fun more of the time.
I like how each character will have access to some form of self-healing, whether magical or just extraordinary, as it allows you to make more flexible and diverse "working" parties.
Altering saving throws into Defense ratings isnt that big of a deal. If anything, at least when you try to affect someone else there is some consitency. I didnt really care when 2nd Edition saves were diluted into three categories, and I'm sure I'll, at the WORST, still enjoy the game because of it.
The consolidation (not simplification) of skills is also a good thing, to me, because now I dont have to worry about stretching myself too thin when trying to place skill points. Also, I often just maxed out a set number of skills anyway, so having only Trained or Untrained skills works with the same process I've always done.
Having mechanical reasons to select other weapons is good because now I dont have to effectively hamstring myself to pick something else than the obviously good weapons (like the greatsword). Also, some weapons are being designed to rely on character traits like Constitution, giving further reason and logic as to why certain races might use certain weapons more often.
There are more, I might post them later. This is just what comes to mind right away.
I'm probably just going to put up a Pros/Cons of 4E on my Gleemax page, but I'll post my thoughts on it here.
This is the wrong thread for cons. Or more appropriately, this is the proper thread for stuff about 4E that rocks! Excellent commentary though...
There's alot of thing I am looking forward to with 4ed. I think the biggest is the decrease in reliance on Magic Items. There was talk in one of the playtests of a 10th level fighter who didn't have any magic gear but didn't feel lacking or underpowered. If WotC can pull that off, I will be mightily impressed on jump aboard the 4ed train with zeal.
I was originally looking to convert across to Iron Heroes, or at least a cross between Iron Heroes and 3.5, but it looks like WotC is doing the hard work for me.
The other major change I am looking forward to is the elimination of the half hour adventuring day. The fact that the PC power is more consistent across the day, not going from near invulnerability to completely drained in 4 or 5 encounters (less if they "nova") is a great step forward. I prefer my PCs to clear out a dungeon on a single sweep. The whole idea of camping within the dungeon or leaving to rest and returning the next day never really seemed right to me. If 4th does away with this as well, I'll be happy.
Oh, I also like how clerics wont be forced to relegate most of their actions healing the rest of the party so they can do more diverse and cool actions.
Fighters will be better able to maintain their role, since monsters will be hard pressed to divert attention away to go maul weaker characters. This is not some kind of "video-gamey" aggro mechanic, either. Monsters will be able to move away, and even ignore fighters. Fighters will just have more abilities to make opportunity attacks when they do so. It basically becomes a gamble: do you feel lucky?
Hopefully grapple is changed. From the sounds of it they are, and I'm frankly GLAD. Grapple really isnt THAT hard of a mechanic to learn and more or less understand. The problem is that it takes 3 rolls to figure out if it worked, four steps, and then it piles on several restrictions and if you want to cast a spell, there is a DC for that, too.
To top it off, you have to make 2 rolls at the start of both grapplers turns, assuming one guy tries to break and the other bothers to maintain.
The bottom line? Grappling is nigh useless. Useless enough that when it comes around, you probably wont remember precisely how it works, and then you will have to browse through the PH (taking time), reading the steps (taking time), and if you dont happen to have your grapple mod listed (or you got hit by a buff spell or other effects), you have to take even MORE time to factor it all in.
And for what? The guy (probably) cant move and loses his Dex bonus?
There are plenty of things that grappling just isnt gonna work on. I know in the video the guy tried to grapple the troll, and it was stupid, etc etc. Who would BOTHER to try? The troll's grapple modifier was probably at least twice as high as the poor delusional fighter's.
Grappling isnt only one of the more complicated rules (again, not so complicated that no one could figure out), but like bull rush it is both complicated, highly situational, and in many cases so tactically bankrupt that when you DO decide to use it, well hopefully your group is blessed with a rules lawyer who DOES remember how it works. Honestly, I think thats the message they were trying to get across.
Not that "all 3rd Edition players are stupid" (because THEY thought of the rule, they would be calling themselves stupid), but because they were trying to be funny (and from the sounds of it, botched it pretty bad) while pointing out that in 4E, grappling might have a more general purpose and not require so many steps/rolls, thus grinding the game to a halt while you read it.
Also, wizards probably wont have to resign themselves to wildly firing crossbow bolts into the sides of barns that they couldnt hit even if they werent beyond the first range increment.
Ever since Complete Mage brought out Reserve feats, they became like class features to me anyway.
The bit on sorcerers also made me happy: you will have a reason to want to play a sorcerer up to 20th-level AND they will actually have unique abilities. One of the things cited was that sorcerers will be "barely in control of their powers, so that when you cast a spell, magic energy lingers around you for a bit".
An example was that, say you launch a blast of fire at someone. For say, 1 round, an aura of intense heat will radiate from you. If you used ice, you would be surrounded by a shield of cold.
Stuff like that excites me. Spellcasters seem to be much more diverse than just spell lists.
There's alot of thing I am looking forward to with 4ed. I think the biggest is the decrease in reliance on Magic Items. There was talk in one of the playtests of a 10th level fighter who didn't have any magic gear but didn't feel lacking or underpowered. If WotC can pull that off, I will be mightily impressed on jump aboard the 4ed train with zeal.
I was originally looking to convert across to Iron Heroes, or at least a cross between Iron Heroes and 3.5, but it looks like WotC is doing the hard work for me.
The other major change I am looking forward to is the elimination of the half hour adventuring day. The fact that the PC power is more consistent across the day, not going from near invulnerability to completely drained in 4 or 5 encounters (less if they "nova") is a great step forward. I prefer my PCs to clear out a dungeon on a single sweep. The whole idea of camping within the dungeon or leaving to rest and returning the next day never really seemed right to me. If 4th does away with this as well, I'll be happy.
Ah yes, lack of reliance on magic items. A lot of people have said that Iron Heroes is pretty cool because of something like that, and I'm looking foward to no longer having a paragraph of magic items typed up on hand just in case I want to use them. Part of the reason I use a lot of flat-stat-boosters is because its easier to just apply the bonuses and not have to think about it much.
I too hope that 4E brings treasure to the table without factoring in the challenges assuming that you DO have "phat lootz".
There's alot of thing I am looking forward to with 4ed. I think the biggest is the decrease in reliance on Magic Items.
I am a huge fan of this. A mid-level fighter should be able to murdalize people with a salt shaker, if need be. Gear dependence is usually what turns me off from MMO's.
I'm in.
From everything I read I get more and more amped each time. I am so IN
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There's alot of thing I am looking forward to with 4ed. I think the biggest is the decrease in reliance on Magic Items...the elimination of the half hour adventuring day... power is more consistent across the day, not going from near invulnerability to completely drained in 4 or 5 encounters... prefer my PCs to clear out a dungeon on a single sweep...
Absolutely!! Though I tend to put the PCs in the deeps overnight just for the creepy-goodness of it.
I'm definitely in! And taking a look at Amazon's sales rankings of the 4e Core Books, the greater majority are with us. I am very excited about the rules changes and new play style (see my comments regarding the Beholder commercial)
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I was originally looking to convert across to Iron Heroes, or at least a cross between Iron Heroes and 3.5, but it looks like WotC is doing the hard work for me.
Iron Heroes was a really interesting system. My group started playing with that, and we enjoyed it for awhile. If they are using that as part of there basis for 4E, then there might just be hope.
Less stuff to carry around.
Quicker gameplay.
Less confusing grappling.
No Gnomes (you heard me).
Easier for younger players to understand (as a new parent, this might jive with me).
Rules intended for smooth integration with video games.Discuss.
Aren't points 1 and 4 limited only to 2008? 2009 will have new core rulebooks and the gnome is expected to be back as well. Points 2 and 5 could potentially fall by the wayside as we get new core books every year (3e was quicker to play and easier to understand the year it released that it was two years laters after all the books WotC put out).
Faster gameplay.
Less prep time for the GM.
Points of Light setting.
4E Art.
Less stuff to carry around.
At best, this is temporary. WotC will UNDOUBTEDLY be pumping out the supplements so generate sales.
Quicker gameplay.
Whatever.
Less confusing grappling.
Its as confusing as any other aspect of combat. Make a character specializes in grappling and you'll find the rules are quite smooth. Its confusing because its not used that often.
No Gnomes (you heard me).
*Blank Stare*
Easier for younger players to understand (as a new parent, this might jive with me).
How many of us did just fine with AD&D 1E? Those rules were much harder to understand then anything 3E has. Its the parents that really have the trouble with stuff like that. (How many kids can program a computer before age 10 while their parents can't set the time on the VCR?)
Rules intended for smooth integration with video games.
There we agree. But I don't see that as a good thing.
I'm lost, and have trouble reading thread titles.
It's cool, happens to us all at times.
It should have been Fourth Edition = 4wesome.
Cute! ;)
Dude! This isn't about 4-somes?
The awesomeness of 4-somes likely depends on where in the quartet you find yourself. Where as 4th edition = always awesome.
William O'Connor is the primary artist in Races and Classes. His work is pretty darn cool.
Wow, very nice!
I'm lost, and have trouble reading thread titles.It's cool, happens to us all at times.
So let me see if I understand you correctly: you don't want to have an intelligent discussion. You just want a 4E lovefest.
If so, the title should be: 4E Lovefest (No Intelligent Discussion Please)
So let me see if I understand you correctly: you don't want to have an intelligent discussion.
Write that down. Read it back to yourself out loud.
Correct!
You have reached the wrong thread for discussion, BUT, the correct thread for expounding on how incredibly awesome 4E will be.
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I'm lost, and have trouble reading thread titles.It's cool, happens to us all at times.
So let me see if I understand you correctly: you don't want to have an intelligent discussion. You just want a 4E lovefest.
If so, the title should be: 4E Lovefest (No Intelligent Discussion Please)
Or rather, a thread that doesn't re-hash the same arguments over and over again.
And in most academic circles the word "whatever" is never considered an intelligent rebuttal for any kind of statement.
I think I missed the "power sources" deal. What does that do?
You have reached the wrong thread for discussion
Silly me to expect discussion on a forum. I guess us Kobolds are infact the superior race.
Yap yap yaaap yap yap yap yip yiiip yip yip yap yip yap yip.
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And in most academic circles the word "whatever" is never considered an intelligent rebuttal for any kind of statement.
Dude, be careful! That kind of talk has been know to bring psychotic, former Valley-girls out of retirement to hunt down the offending person and give them an 80's-style makeover. I'm talking "Flock of Seagulls" hair and everything. Not a pretty sight.
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I think I missed the "power sources" deal. What does that do?
The way I understand the sources of a classes abilities is its power source. A wizard uses arcane magic, a cleric use divine, and a fighter has his manuevers. I would go look up some more info but I am at work. I know I have seen some references online during some of the early previews. One of the videos mentions it, I do know that.
And in most academic circles the word "whatever" is never considered an intelligent rebuttal for any kind of statement.
Ok, fine. How about this. How do you know it is "faster game play?" You don't. You never tried it. All you're doing is regurgitating back what a company salesman told you. Parrots can do that. Zombies are capable of repeated what their master's train them to say.
And in most academic circles, parroting back what a salesman tells you isn't considered an "intelligent rebuttal" either.
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EladrinDefinitely. The eladrin writeup in Races & Classes looked pretty sweet. I know I'm a heretic, but I didn't even know what an eladrin was until this whole 4e ruckus.
I knew what they were but I always treated them the way they are described in the Races and Classes book anyway. They were a "higher" form of elf. I discarded more than half of the official fluff.
Good points about 4E:
Much better marketing.
Aids digestion and regurgitation.
Kind to animals AND zombies.
So, I was in the right thread after all.
I can’t fault your logic.
The way I understand...
Funky, thanks! I will look around some as more info releases.
Aight, back on track: I like that they are attempting to keep the SRD going with the new version. Hopefully, it will be a success, and fairly inclusive.
Much better marketing.
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And in most academic circles the word "whatever" is never considered an intelligent rebuttal for any kind of statement.
Ok, fine. How about this. How do you know it is "faster game play?" You don't. You never tried it. All you're doing is regurgitating back what a company salesman told you. Parrots can do that. Zombies are capable of repeated what their master's train them to say.
And in most academic circles, parroting back what a salesman tells you isn't considered an "intelligent rebuttal" either.
Ahh...but you're the one claiming to be participating in intelligent discussion and yet you are using none of the techniques commonly associated with said pastime. We were simply listing the items that appeal to us about 4e based on information provided. You came into a thread that wasn't about discussing the cons of 4e and decided to bring your little black rain clouds. You weren't looking for intelligent discussion, you were looking for yet another forum where you could demand to be heard.
There are plenty of threads for that here on Paizo.
And a word of advice, you solidified my position by what you just said. By stating there is not enough information to determine whether or not gameplay is faster your position grows weaker. I operate on what information I have been provided and I am choosing to trust what they are saying at this time. If that changes, great, but for right now it seems to me gameplay might be faster. By pointing out the lack of information you make your claims to the contrary sound hollow.
Outside of that, I respect your feelings. I hope you can respect that some of us are excited about the change and would like a thread where we can express that excitement without being insulted or demeaned for our feelings.
This thread should not devolve into the same mire every other thread seems to be plagued with on this board. Since this thread really isn't about discussing the cons of 4e all further responses about this off-topic subject will be ignored by me.
I, for one, will continue listing things that appeal to me about the game.
