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Getting back on topic:
UK1 Beyond the Crystal Cave. I wouldn't say it was the worst module, but at the time and in my state of mind it was a big letdown. Being 13 and spending my hard earned cash on the slaver series and Ghost Tower of Inverness and being happy with most of the 1st ed AD&D published mods UK1 was very much a wtf kind of experience..with no monsters, and no real encounters. A Harlequin romance novel premise in the heyday of hack and slash. Maybe brave for it's time, but damn...what a letdown.
Seldriss, apology accepted.
Hmm...
Chris, my point was not to discredit DMs who run ready made adventures.And it was not either to discredit the designers who write them.
I don't give any lecture nor judgement.
As i said, i respect the work of designers (being one myself).
I already made a clarification about that.
In short, it was my opinion as a player and as a DM. Nothing more.
As a player, i prefer to play in adventures written by my DM himself. Even if it's bad. Because it's his adventures. His world.
And as a DM, i prefer to run my own adventures, even if it takes me days to prepare. Even if often my players only go through 10 or 20% of them, as my wife often teases me.
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I think and hope that it wasn't.
Maybe you should chill out and try not to take things personally.
Ugh, post gobbled. Trying again :P
Obviously, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on whether your OP read as condescending. That entirely aside, it was inappropriate of me to continue lowering the level of discourse. For that, I sincerely apologize.
I can't help but point out that in the history of arguing, I don't think that the phrase "chill out" or suggestions not to take things personally have ever once had the desired effect on the incensed party. :)
(I originally wrote some material here about my own attitude towards pre-written material, but I see that Chris has already nailed it just about right)
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Not that they have any "BAD" Modules but for giggles and grins what is the worst Paizo module?
Worst of the best, huh?
Out of what I've read/run (AoW, RotR, CoCT) my money's on Spire of Long Shadows. Not because it's a bad adventure, per se, but in an already-difficult campaign it still manages to come across as an obscene meat grinder.
It seems virtually guaranteed to TPK the players until they get together and build splat-heavy, min-maxed, badass killing machines. Then, after that adventure, the difficulty drops down to merely "pretty hard" again, leaving the PC monstrosities to steamroll the remainder of the campaign.
Not that they have any "BAD" Modules but for giggles and grins what is the worst Paizo module?
When did Paizo take over Dungeon?
The worst Dungeon mod that stands out to me is 'Demonblade' from issue 97. The premise of that adventure depended so much on the author's own fantasy kindgom that it was nearly useless in any other setting. Also factor in that the adventure was level 16, a level where I'm assuming players have spent an awful lot of time in some campaign setting of their own, and I can't imagine who got any use out of it.
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The worst D&D module I've ever run was Three Days To Kill from Atlas Games' Penumbra line. The adventure starts out fine, and the hook that brings the characters in is, while railroady, very smart.
Then the whole thing goes to CRAP.
First HUGE mistake: The person the players have to kill, and the meeting they have to disrupt, occurs in a mountain chalet. That's right, inside a WOODEN BUILDING. The combination of a dozen flasks of oil, a few good Move Silently checks, and my players managed to set the entire building on fire and kill everyone in it. I had to sit there and give them 1000s of XPs for doing SQUAT. So there's absolutely no real challenge in the adventure unless your players are so stupid they don't realize wood burns.
Second HUGE mistake: The miscreants who hire the PCs give them a nifty magic item to help them with their task: a magical orb that allows them to see through walls, amongst other tricks. Not only does it make Three Days To Kill far too easy, but the item is RIDICULOUSLY unbalanced. Run this adventure -- for characters level 1 to 3 -- and watch in amazement as your players are NEVER SURPRISED AGAIN. What's on the other side of that door? Let's look and see. Any secret doors? Let's scan the walls and find out.
Utter fail.
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Not that they have any "BAD" Modules but for giggles and grins what is the worst Paizo module?
One of the supplemental dungeons for the Age of Worms AP was a "triple temple dungeon." The first temple (Hextor) was alright, but the second temple (Vecna) not only ended our Age of Worms campaign and destroyed our gaming group, but permanently cost me a friend.
The issue was this: You're walking down a hall. The first character in the party passes a secret door behind which is hiding a Kenku with sneak attack. Thanks to some EXCEPTIONALLY poor decision making on Paizo's part (part of me thinks Mr. Mona might have written this one himself, if so, boo!) the secret door can be open or close by thought, as a free action.
So this is what happens: Rogue is leading, my fighter is following, followed by party cleric and wizard. Following behind them is a 2nd level marshal and 5 1st level warriors we had hired to give us some support.
Kenku steps out and sneak attacks the rogue. He uncanny dodges.
Then the argument starts. If I can no longer see the kenku, has the encounter ended? We know he's on the other side of the door, but apparently we drop out of combat as soon as he disappears. So basically, according tot he rogue's players interpretation of the rules (and I'd like to point out I'd been playing 3.5 for several years at this point, whereas he had previously only played Neverwinter Nights) every time one of us steps in front of the door, the kenku gets a new surprise round in which he can open the door, stab us, close the door and end the combat.
I was firm in my belief that because we knew where the door was, and knew that the kenku was behind it, we would not be flatfooted when he opened the door. But the rules were hazy, and anal reading of them didn't support my contention. The rogue player, because of his uncanny dodge, didn't have to worry about this so he defended the strict rules interpretation as fiercely as he could, even though it meant our entire party would be wiped out by one kenku.
Since I wasn't willing to let the whole party die just because the rules didn't make it clear that hiding behind a closed door doesn't end combat and don't allow you to prepare for an attack you know is coming, and he wasn't willing to be flexible in the rules because it didn't cost him anything in his warped perspective if we all died, and the DM simply wouldn't pick a side.
If those damn doors had simply followed normal rules, we would have been fine. But nooooooo...so, worst paizo adventure ever.
Probably wasn't a big loss. The same jerk once claimed that the knock spell doesn't actually open chests it merely unlocks them, solely because I tried to knock open several trapped sarcophagi from a sufficiently safe distance to trigger the trap without getting hit.
Not that they have any "BAD" Modules but for giggles and grins what is the worst Paizo module?
My worst D&D experience ever was, without a doubt, "Tides of Dread." Our party already had significant turnover--only two of the original characters in the party were still alive. (In contrast, the same group had four characters forge through the entirety of Age of Worms.) We managed to do just about everything we could to fortify the colony--I think we actually pulled off all of the side quests despite the time limit--and persevered through the actual battle until the very end.
Then Vanthus's WMD wiped most everything out. The PCs all passed the saves, and the DM said Lavinia did, too. But all of the work we had put in the past few sessions was effectively negated.
I've never left the table with such a bad taste in my mouth. I was writing my own homebrew campaign at the time, and immediately made a mental note of Tides of Dread: "This is what NOT to do."
We continued the campaign for a few months afterward, but more out of commitment to the group, I think, than any actual fulfillment. We never finished the adventure path, but by the time we concluded, my character was the only one that witnessed the Farshore battle that was still alive.
I still get angry just thinking about it.
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Worst DnD module I ever ran was Eye of the Sun, a free download from the Wizards website by Eric Cagle. While it was free, and therefore I wasn't out any money, I still had to deal with some angry players.
The whole adventure seems to be made to cause the players to be angry at you followed by questioning the veracity.
A city of Lizardfolk made up of.... 11 lizardfolk.
A storyline that the players have NO way of finding out.
Every rope solved situation seems to be 10 feet longer than it needs to be.
Every situation that can be solved with a 10 foot pole is 12 feet away.
There's tons of walking and very little... adventure.
All in all, the worse adventure I've ever run. At least it was free, and therefore probably not as bad as others mentioned.
May not be among the worst ever; but in retrospect, the Avatar Trilo really didn't work as modules.
Egregious example of railroading/leading the PCs by the nose.
Oh, great call. I read the first one and tossed it aside, shouting vulgarities. Massive suckitude.
I also hate Tomb of Horrors. Never understood why people idolize it. A randomly generates character screwer. All the hatefulness of magical puzzles without any of the sense.
Castle Greyhawk - as long as you knew you were buying a big as April Fool's issue of Dragon when you got it it was fine; I think the big problem is people who didn't expect that. Same with Dungeonland - it was silly, but if you're into that you're into it.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Worst DnD module I ever ran was Eye of the Sun, a free download from the Wizards website by Eric Cagle. While it was free, and therefore I wasn't out any money, I still had to deal with some angry players.
There's tons of walking and very little... adventure.
Whoa. I just went to the download site and took a look. Wow.
If you think four lizardfolk warriors are a reasonable encounter for a 4th-Level party...or a 2nd Level Cleric...
But to be fair, Modera, there are "more lizardfolk" inside the ziggurats. (How did the lizardfolk find the secret doors, and how can the DM prevent elves from doing so prematurely?)
Since there might be more ancient-lizard civilization stuff down there, I'm guessing that Mr. Cagle is hoping the DM's will write the real meat of the adventures themselves.
And your players shouldn't have too much cause to be angered, since there's almost 130,000 gp treasure for the taking.
--
It's worth noting that when we have issues with the Paizo adventures, the problems we raise are mechanical: the encounters are simply too tough / unbeatable. (As opposed to the adventures not making sense, or NPC's being unfunny jokes.)
It makes me wonder about whether the Adventure Paths are play-tested in-house, and how capable a professional game designer can stat out his Player Character.
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Tell me more about the later additional stuff...Castle Amber - has something of a ghost train, and can get really interesting if you use some of the later additional stuff.
Stefan
The Principalities of Glantri Gazetteer for the Known World (published c. 1987), and even the Glantri and Castle Amber boxed sets published for Mystara/AD&D from the mid-nineties. From those, you could get much more out of the personalities of the Ambrevilles.
A healthy dose of reading CAS stories helps as well, even if the original stories are of course written as stories, not as adventure plots.Stefan
So, what you are referring to is the Mark of Amber box set, the Gazetteer and the Glantri Box set. I actually have the Mark of Amber already and have not read it yet. I might just give it a read soon and I ordered the others... Thanks.
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The worst D&D module I've ever run was Three Days To Kill from Atlas Games' Penumbra line. The adventure starts out fine, and the hook that brings the characters in is, while railroady, very smart.
Then the whole thing goes to CRAP.
It was the first adventure they wrote in the Penumbra line, which might be a slight excuse.
However, I wasn't particularly impressed with several of those adventures (although I don't think I've read them all so I might have missed some gems).
The better ones were just too strange to include in a regular campaign. I'd love to run Beyond the Ebon Mirror because the first time someone casts Mirror Image is a moment of pure joy for the DM, but I don't think my players would appreciate a trip to "backwards land".
In fairness to Atlas, Splintered Peace is excellent and their "Seven" series of sourcebooks is also very good.
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...some stuff that hurt my head...
Yeah, your rogue "friend" and DM both served up heaping helpings of Fail. The rogue seems to be arguing in favor of a "strict interpretation" of rules that simply do not exist in D&D, and to my knowledge have never existed in any edition of the rules.
Ignoring even the obvious failure of your DM to rein it in, the DMs first failure was one of reading comprehension, because the scenerio you described isn't a problem with the module.
From Three Faces of Evil: "A Vecna cultist may open or close ONE door per round as a free action" (emphasis mine)
Since you may take only a single standard action + free actions during a surprise round, the Kenku simply cannot open the door (free action), attack (standard action) and then close it again (would be a move action).
Those of you who have expressed an opinion on Castle Amber might like this thread at RPG.net (if you haven't already seen it).
That one is just great and does a lot to explain this utter madness ;-)
Stefan
The Castle of the Silver Princess was a tough one. There was no logical reason for all those different monsters to be throughout the castle.
I liked Castle Amber, although it was bizarre, and loved the Lost City. I did a whole campaign on that one.
black arrow, red shield was pretty awesome, as well (as long as we're talking BECMI)
(or was that black shield red arrow? it's been a while...)
Thumbs up from me as well on Red Arrow, Black Shield. A lot of interesting diplomacy missions with a major war in the background was a unique step. I'd heavily enhance it if I ran it know but a ground breaking module for its time. In the same vein Test of the Warlords was very good.
Yes, it certainly is. I don't mind the premise of the module, and as a matter of fact, it's supposed to play an important role in my current campaign... but if my players ever get to a high enough level to play the scenario, I can guarantee that it will have been altered drastically... No more opening sequence, that's for sure! And the railroading in that module was some of the worst I have ever seen.I never played any of the bad Greyhawk modules, though the opening sequence of Vecna lives! is certainly among the worst possible ones.Nail hit squarely on head. I was very excited when I saw they were doing a Vecna module way back when, but the execution of the "hi there, everybody dies, now the adventure moves on" intro was just the worst part of a hardcore railroad adventure that never sniffed the air of coolness that I hoped for from it.
Alas...
Agreed - I've never really been able to get past that awful opening. I can never remember what the rest of the module was about because the horrible opening just kind of drowns out the rest of the plot.
Does anyone know of a 3.5 adaptation of Keep on the Borderlands?
En Worlds got one I'm sure and its not that tough to do yourself. I've actually done it but my notes are so full of my own home brew details that they don't really work for anyone else - and it was my first major conversion. I made mistakes.
out of curiousity, what about the modules in books and magazines written by DMs?What i mean is that i think a DM should write his own modules by himself. That's part of the job.
As a DM i wouldn't dare running a game for my players from a magazine or a book.
And as a player i am not interested by a DM who can't write his own adventures.
I see this as very similar to something like "A great author should never read."
Even if you do mostly your own material it helps a lot to know what other great writers have done before you. What has historically worked and not worked and maybe why its worked or not.
/sigh
Oh please, not again...
I explained my point of view with more details (and maybe in a less provocative way) in some following posts.
Feel free to check them, you'll see i don't mean to patronize nor disrespect anyone, DM or author.
/peace
The worst D&D module I've ever run was Three Days To Kill from Atlas Games' Penumbra line. The adventure starts out fine, and the hook that brings the characters in is, while railroady, very smart.
Then the whole thing goes to CRAP.
It was the first adventure they wrote in the Penumbra line, which might be a slight excuse.
However, I wasn't particularly impressed with several of those adventures (although I don't think I've read them all so I might have missed some gems).
The better ones were just too strange to include in a regular campaign. I'd love to run Beyond the Ebon Mirror because the first time someone casts Mirror Image is a moment of pure joy for the DM, but I don't think my players would appreciate a trip to "backwards land".
In fairness to Atlas, Splintered Peace is excellent and their "Seven" series of sourcebooks is also very good.
Beyond the Ebon Mirror gets my vote for worst 3rd edition adventure.
Seldriss, apology accepted.Any designer is working under a handicap: he can't see the party for whom he's building the adventure. Maybe the party is only three characters, or doesn't have any rogues or arcane casters, or is being played by novices who've never encountered a bugbear before, or who absolutely love puzzle-traps.
He can't know, as so he writes an adventure with some standard assumptions and trusts to each DM the responsibility to adjust and accomodate the written material for his or her own group.
If a DM is just "reading" (your term) the adventure from a book or magazine, she's not doing her job. If that's been your experience, then I can well imagine you'd have a negative opinion about "all of them," which of course would include Pathfinder products.
But a designer is working with an advantage, as well: he can take much longer designing encounters, building NPC's, and play-testing adventures than most individual DM's. Artists can prepare visuals: NPC's, rooms, monsters, which are beyond the art skills of most DM's. Developers and editors can check for errors so that the DM can concentrate on her players and the storyline, instead of mechanical balance issues or mistyped stats.
Some modules do this better than others. A good module pulls its share of the weight, leaving the DM to only pull her own. Some need more work than that. Some are just bad. This thread is to discuss the ones where the proposed storylines, or encounters, or editorial quality, are so bad they're funny.
Saying that they're all that bad doesn't advance the discussion. Saying that they all require the DM to do her part, in adjusting the adventures to fit the needs of her table, goes without saying.
Very informative in the sense that you bring to light the areas of game preparation that a good adventure can help with and also consider those areas that an adventure, no matter how good, can really address.
A great answer.
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every time one of us steps in front of the door, the kenku gets a new surprise round in which he can open the door, stab us, close the door and end the combat.
That sort of thing pisses me off. Doesn't matter if that's a PC or DM doing that. Doesn't even matter whether the rules allow that kind of thing or not! Don't play the system to wreck the suspension of disbelief that way! Rules aren't meant to be used in a vacuum! They represent a reality. Use your common sense! And in dire situations, when one side has an absurd advantage, it's time to break/ignore the rules for the sake of the game.
That's just ridiculous. Really. It's like some DMs/players using rules instantly lose the ability to use common sense and team spirit in certain situations. That's just... WRAAAH! *sigh*
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every time one of us steps in front of the door, the kenku gets a new surprise round in which he can open the door, stab us, close the door and end the combat.That sort of thing pisses me off. Doesn't matter if that's a PC or DM doing that. Doesn't even matter whether the rules allow that kind of thing or not! Don't play the system to wreck the suspension of disbelief that way! Rules aren't meant to be used in a vacuum! They represent a reality. Use your common sense! And in dire situations, when one side has an absurd advantage, it's time to break/ignore the rules for the sake of the game.
That's just ridiculous. Really. It's like some DMs/players using rules instantly lose the ability to use common sense and team spirit in certain situations. That's just... WRAAAH! *sigh*
That situation was certainly handled incorrectly. If the kenku attacks you, you are in an encounter until the PCs decide they are no longer attempting to defeat the kenku, you would stay in initiative, no surprise rounds, and act accordingly. Of course, with Hide, the kenku could do the same thing, except that during the round your party could open the door and kill it. You would be surprised when it attacks, since you can't predict when or exactly from where, but you could also ready actions or react to it's attack each round. There is a difference between being caught flat-footed and being caught in a surprise round. A doesn't always mean B, but B usually means A.
Gailbraithe, your DMs ruling? would mean any creature with invisibility (like a Green Hag or Pixie) would be imminently more challenging to defeat.
Companion to the Worst D&D Books Thread:
Adams Wrath: Starts out with the party dying (encouraging the DM to cheet to make it happen) and then they wake up having been 'saved' by Viktor Mordheim. They then have to make a deal with him (automatic evil act) to be railroaded into the plot.
As soon as I saw the title to this thread, thats the first module I thought of. Very dumb and boring module. Probably looked like a fun idea in theory, but very poor execution.
Does anyone know of a 3.5 adaptation of Keep on the Borderlands?
I rewrote this one last year for use in Fantasy Grounds. Unfortunately, there's no way I know of to get a readable print copy since Fantasy Grounds is set up to run online games and there just isn't any printing capability built in.
Assuming that we include 3PP, World's Largest Dungeon needs a mention. The premises of the adventure are just insane.
every time one of us steps in front of the door, the kenku gets a new surprise round in which he can open the door, stab us, close the door and end the combat.
I played in a game that had a similar situation. We all stood facing the door and readied actions to attack as soon as it opened. Then one of the characters would whisper, just loudly enough to be heard, "Quick! Hurry past before it opens again!"
every time one of us steps in front of the door, the kenku gets a new surprise round in which he can open the door, stab us, close the door and end the combat.I played in a game that had a similar situation. We all stood facing the door and readied actions to attack as soon as it opened. Then one of the characters would whisper, just loudly enough to be heard, "Quick! Hurry past before it opens again!"
Can't ready actions outside of combat.
That said its not a surprise round if you know whats about to happen. I mean the rules are pretty vague to begin with on what constitutes surprise and how to handle it but there is no way something can be a surprise if your waiting for a door to open and have every intention of jumping on anything behind the door. Sure your DM is free to rule it as surprise if it turns out Little Red Riding Hood is behind the door and you were expecting an Ogre with fetid breath but outside of something like that I just don't see how the rules support the idea that the PCs are surprised.
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Can't ready actions outside of combat.
Where does it say this specifically?
Granted, it takes an action on your turn, but technically everyone is always taking turns and actions even outside initiative.
Readying an action is a pretty typical realistic action that normal people can do (I "ready" to press my brake pedal if the car in front of me shows its brake lights) so why can't you do it in D&D?
Can't ready actions outside of combat.
Where does it say this specifically?
Granted, it takes an action on your turn, but technically everyone is always taking turns and actions even outside initiative.
Readying an action is a pretty typical realistic action that normal people can do (I "ready" to press my brake pedal if the car in front of me shows its brake lights) so why can't you do it in D&D?
Well p.160 of the PH says it's a special initiative action. It kind of implies that you have to be in initiative. And in your example of the car, you'd treat driving as the event causing an initiative count and then you could ready to brake, given that you are aware of the other driver. In the event you aren't aware of another driver you have to react and hope you roll higher in initiative.
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Well p.160 of the PH says it's a special initiative action. It kind of implies that you have to be in initiative. And in your example of the car, you'd treat driving as the event causing an initiative count and then you could ready to brake, given that you are aware of the other driver. In the event you aren't aware of another driver you have to react and hope you roll higher in initiative.
The title is "special initiative actions" and the first paragraph sentence says "when you act during combat". I can see how you might interpret that to mean it is a combat-only action. But as far as I know, the only distinction between combat and non-combat is that in combat things have to happen in initiative to keep things organized. For example, it says that a spells casting time is "1 round". Since technically rounds only occur in combat, does that mean you can't cast spells out of combat? Even if you require an initiative order to take the ready/delay (which I don't), since characters can initiate combat (I attack the merchant!) it logically follows they can initiate combat against an imagined enemy (real or not).
There are no actions I am aware of that your characters take which you can perform ONLY during combat. Your character can try something anytime they want given some restrictions in combat based on when it is their turn.
Going back to my driving example, you don't need to see a car to ready an action to press your brakes - you might know of a dangerous intersection where people run lights, so you ease up on the gas and ready the brakes IF you see a car.
its not a surprise round if you know whats about to happen. I mean the rules are pretty vague to begin with on what constitutes surprise and how to handle it but there is no way something can be a surprise if your waiting for a door to open and have every intention of jumping on anything behind the door. Sure your DM is free to rule it as surprise if it turns out Little Red Riding Hood is behind the door and you were expecting an Ogre with fetid breath but outside of something like that I just don't see how the rules support the idea that the PCs are surprised.
This is the core to this argument. If you know they kenku is behind the door, you are aware of him, and you are not surprised (check p137 PHB if we're tossing page #'s around). Plain and simple. And saying "well, you can't see him so you're not aware of him" is ludicrous ... especailly if he's popped out a couple of times already. A DM ruling otherwise is just trying to kill his PCs by deliberately misinterpretting the rules. Poor gamesmanship at best; cheating at worst.
Can't ready actions outside of combat.
I agree with Jal on that one. That's just silly. I mean, if you KNOW the door's going to pop open?
The way the DM ran it was, since you still might not react quickly enough, we rolled initiative when the door opened. Monster wins: attacks first, and we're flat-footed. We win: we attack first, and the monster is flat-footed. Worked fine; we felt it was fair; the DM felt it was fair; everyone had fun. If that makes it "unofficial," or a "house rule" then so be it.
Can't ready actions outside of combat.I agree with Jal on that one. That's just silly. I mean, if you KNOW the door's going to pop open?
The way the DM ran it was, since you still might not react quickly enough, we rolled initiative when the door opened. Monster wins: attacks first, and we're flat-footed. We win: we attack first, and the monster is flat-footed. Worked fine; we felt it was fair; the DM felt it was fair; everyone had fun. If that makes it "unofficial," or a "house rule" then so be it.
I think that's the only sensible way to run it. Otherwise monsters like phase spiders become unbeatable. Only I'd say that the monster wouldn't be flat-footed if it lost initiative since it acted in opening the door. But that's arguable.
I think that's the only sensible way to run it. Otherwise monsters like phase spiders become unbeatable. Only I'd say that the monster wouldn't be flat-footed if it lost initiative since it acted in opening the door. But that's arguable.
The ruling was, if it knew we were waiting for it, it wouldn't be. But if it expected us to be walking past, totally unaware of it, and instead it opens the door and we start swinging...
She quit TSR to go train as an uchi-deshi at an Aikido dojo in Japan. That didn't work out, so she came back to the U.S. and stated training at my dojo outside of Chicago. Since I'm a gamer, I used to talk with her quite a bit about TSR. That was well over ten years ago, though.
Cool. Thanks for the heads up.
Can't ready actions outside of combat.
Where does it say this specifically?
Granted, it takes an action on your turn, but technically everyone is always taking turns and actions even outside initiative.
Readying an action is a pretty typical realistic action that normal people can do (I "ready" to press my brake pedal if the car in front of me shows its brake lights) so why can't you do it in D&D?
I'd have sworn it was an official position. However I can't seem to find it in Rules of the Game or the FAQ so its starting to seem likely that I am mistaken.
That said I've not totally given up on the idea just yet. Being able to ready actions outside of combat seems to operate in juxtaposition to the flat footed rules. Anyone got the Rules Compendium? It might clarify this there.
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Another analogy could be the hunter in the woods...
He knows the deer is out there, so his weapon is loaded and ready to fire at a moments notice...
He sees his pray, he gets ready to fire...
The deer sees him!
Roll initiative!
If the deer wins, it bolts...
If the hunter wins, he fires...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-