I don't know if this was posted elsewhere - if so, chime in. Otherwise, I just wanted to lay out there that WotC has announced plans for their Monster Manual (MM).
In summary, they have decided to take the approach of the most recent MMs, and break up the MMI (3.5) "canon" monsters and space them evenly through the course of the various MM books they plan to release. Their intent is to make every MM a core book (their words). Their obvious intent is to sell every MM book. Not a bad idea: its virtually a collectable game mentality - except that at least you will definately get the monsters you paid for in the book.
Hey, I got an idea. Instead of including ALL of the core rules in just the PHB and DMG, why don't they just fan out these critical rules over a variety of "Complete"-type books?
A podcast is an audio file (wow, I though everyone knew what that was, just goes to show that I need to broaden my perspective on such things). They often put transcripts up a while afterwards.
Hmmm... this is the very first 4E decision I don't like. I was dismayed that crappy (if heart-warmingly old school) monsters like the choker and the athach were in MM1 (the 3.0 version at least). Where were the bullywugs and tasloi?
And now they're going to make it worse? Ah well. There had to be one thing I didn't like. The delver better not be in the first one. That's all I'll say. Grrr.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Knee Jerk Reaction: Mother f~&~ers!!! Goddamnit!!! *froth* *rage*
Attempting to Divine Logic from the Shit WotC Flings Reaction: Maybe the plan is to take monsters that are loaded down in a particular niche (say humanoids, dragons, demons, giants, etc) and break them out over multiple books to give them more of a chance to shine. They could also do things like postpone the introduction of the illithid until 4e psionics makes its debut.
Final Reaction: Neh. I'll have to see what's in the MMI to say how bad this is.
I refuse to do the podcast thing - I hate wasting time listening to people speak when I could read something and absorb the information in less time and have it be more concise. Do they offer an explanation, or they just spend 10 minutes after the announcement giggling like Beavis and Butthead saying "heh, heh, yeah, this'll be kewl."
Just a Little More Knee Jerk Reaction: I hear that WotC's ultimate plan right before the launch of 4e is to have the executive officers visit each gamer's childhood home, dig up their pet dog, and piss all over the remains, just in case there is anyone with whom they still have a good relationship.
The second reaction makes a lot of sense :) I hope they do it like that rather than have loads of stupid, nonsense monsters (as opposed to the beholder haha).
I agree on podcasts. I always think they'll be good, but they really are very dull.
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A podcast is an audio file (wow, I though everyone knew what that was, just goes to show that I need to broaden my perspective on such things). They often put transcripts up a while afterwards.
Yeah, I'm one of those folks who spends most of his life out in the physical world. Although seeing what a podcast is, I have to agree with Sebastian that it seems to be a waste of time.
Just wanted to say Sebastian:
Logic and vitriol an excellent choice, sir. Maybe a fine Chardonnay to go with? I would suggest perhaps an '82 vintage.
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Just a Little More Knee Jerk Reaction: I hear that WotC's ultimate plan right before the launch of 4e is to have the executive officers visit each gamer's childhood home, dig up their pet dog, and piss all over the remains, just in case there is anyone with whom they still have a good relationship.
I wish them luck in trying to find mine. I'm pretty sure that spot may no longer exist after Hurricane Katrina. Still, the effort would make me angry...they wouldn't like me when I'm angry.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I wish them luck in trying to find mine. I'm pretty sure that spot may no longer exist after Hurricane Katrina. Still, the effort would make me angry...they wouldn't like me when I'm angry.
Well, failing that, the back up plan is to give you a cute puppy, wait for you to fall in love with it, and then cook it up in some chili and trick you into eating it.
How do you feel about buying the first MM for 4.0 and not having ALL of the dragons available (i.e. You get Red and Green, and Silver and Bronze, but none of the others)?
Well, I'm listening while working. I couldn't listen to this garbage on my free time....are you kidding?
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This approach worries me a bit.
First (assuming there's anything resembling a permissive OGL to accompany 4th edition), what's to stop ambitious third party publishers such as Paizo, Green Ronin, White Wolf, etc, from creating their own monster books right after the first Monster Manual arrives, and include all of the popular monsters that didn't make the cut for the first 4E monster manual? If the 4E MM doesn't include frost giants, for example (I think they mention this in the podcast), then couldn't a 3rd party publisher stat up frost giants, and scoop WotC on this and other signature monsters? Maybe they can work a clause into the OGL with a list of monster names that can't be used? I dunno, but it seems potentially confusing for players if we end up with multiple versions of classic critters.
Second, this plan to save some popular monsters for later Monster Manual releases would mean that (barring the situation described above), there will be a lot of favorite monsters with no 4E stats for a while. 3rd party adventures will either need to stat up those monsters as needed (using page space in their books for things that should arguably be in the core rules in the first place and will probably be given contradictory stats in the core rules later on), or skip them over until WotC gets around to including them.
I know it probably wouldn't sell as well and would raise the cost of the core rules to a point where casually interested customers would never pick it up, but personally I'd rather pay extra for an enormous and lavish hardcover tome of monsters that includes the best assortment of D&D monsters ever compiled in a single volume. Lets see a book the size of Ptolus made up of nothing but beautifully-illustrated monsters and their game stats! :-D
As for podcasts: If all you're going to do is sit there and listen to them, they're arguably a waste of time. Listen to them on your iPod while walking/driving to work, sitting on the can, etc, and they can be a worthwhile way of taking in information while otherwise occupied, making your day more interesting in the process.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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How do you feel about buying the first MM for 4.0 and not having ALL of the dragons available (i.e. You get Red and Green, and Silver and Bronze, but none of the others)?
Honestly? If the first MMI contained, say, Red, Black, and Green, I probably would be okay with that. Red is very iconic and Black and Green are found in locales where adventures are commonly set. White and Blue are used much less often due to their relatively uncommon environment. The metallic dragons could vanish entirely, and I wouldn't shed a tear.
By the way, Aberzombie, I apologize for not being clear - yes the podcast.
And yes, to answer my own question, someone did refer to the podcast I am referring to when the game designers were laughing about the plane Biopia (spelling?). But this the thread didn't mention the critical decision to break up the core monsters.
I gotta say that this decision (where I am concerned) sucks. I am a core-only person, and WotC just got a lot more money out of me (albeit 2008).
[Honestly? If the first MMI contained, say, Red, Black, and Green, I probably would be okay with that.
As a disclaimer, I obviously have NO insight on WotC strategies - especially that of the MM. So my examples of what we MIGHT see from WotC (in terms of dragon colors) were only speculation. I guess what I'm saying is that it would work out good for you if they were the colors that I arbitrarily threw out there, but you might not be so happy if you didn't have, say, the red dragon.
How do you feel about buying the first MM for 4.0 and not having ALL of the dragons available (i.e. You get Red and Green, and Silver and Bronze, but none of the others)?Honestly? If the first MMI contained, say, Red, Black, and Green, I probably would be okay with that. Red is very iconic and Black and Green are found in locales where adventures are commonly set. White and Blue are used much less often due to their relatively uncommon environment. The metallic dragons could vanish entirely, and I wouldn't shed a tear.
~cries of horror~ No! You dirty rotten SOB! How dare you exclude my kind from the MM!!! ~growls and snarls~
On the plus side, I would be fine with there being no were-wolves in there.
What I didn't like was the mkae me a challenge rating "x" pop quiz. It felt way more like number crunching to me than 3.5. It was like ok a challenge rating 7, I'll need to heavies, oh wait one of those counts as two, then a controller type and then a ranged type. They have now looked them into the new roles and it seems to be worked into the challenge rating system. Although the guy was put on the spot so it may have com eout wrong.
I like podcasts because I can listen to them during work.
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Does anyone thinke that WotC is going to do this with the PHB and DMG too? If I remember correctly, they're planning to release core PHBs, DMGs, and MMs every year. By parceling out races, classes, and rules, they can keep sales of the core books up over the course of 4e, just as they keep MM sales up with a continuing trickle of iconic monsters. Plus, they're always ahead of the third-party curve, because they'll have time in-house to develop adventures, supplements, etc. featuring the new rules. And depending on the terms of the OGL, the core version could become the only acceptable version, thereby invalidating any third-party work which came before.
Plus, this could get around the problem of a need for 4.5e without releasing an official one. In 2009 we could see:
MM2 -- frost giants, metallic dragons, etc. + revised monster levels for MM1 monsters
PHB2 -- changelings, gnomes, monks, barbarians, + revised 4e paladin
DMG2 -- unarmed combat, grappling rules + revised 4e magic item costs
I'm just speculating, and don't have any evidence that this is going to be the case, but if WotC wants to keep sales of PHBn and DMGn up, this seems like an effective way to do it (though expensive for the rest of us).
(Finally, on a really paranoid note, DMG2 and PHB2 in 3.5e weren't OGL. So Wizards could release the first set of books with an OGL, but keep the subsequent ones completely in-house. If they do parcel out the "standard" monsters, etc., that could really hurt third-party publishers.)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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As a disclaimer, I obviously have NO insight on WotC strategies - especially that of the MM. So my examples of what we MIGHT see from WotC (in terms of dragon colors) were only speculation. I guess what I'm saying is that it would work out good for you if they were the colors that I arbitrarily threw out there, but you might not be so happy if you didn't have, say, the red dragon.
Right, and I was replying in a hypothetical matter just to illustrate that I would find a subset of dragons to be acceptable. If it was, say, Blue, Copper, and Brass, I would be pretty pissed off. Which is why my ultimate reaction is that I need more information to decide whether this is something I don't like or something I can deal with.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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~cries of horror~ No! You dirty rotten SOB! How dare you exclude my kind from the MM!!! ~growls and snarls~
Well, the hope is that after they remove silver dragons, they will then remove the miniatures. And all pictures of the miniatures. And then you will have to post using the Vomit Guy picture instead of a dragon.
MHA HA HA!!
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I think I would be better off if I went to my FLGS and found 4e on the shelf having never heard that a 4th edition was being published. I am not opposed to a 4e, even if it comes sooner than they said it would but the things I keep hearing, like these MM changes, are bothering me. I think I am simply not going to read this forum anymore and pretend it doesn't exist. I can then approach 4e when I can look over the books in the store. I cannot imagine that WotC cares what I think of the changes and thus any angst concerning them is a waste of my time and energy.
Goodbye, 4th edition forum, I will see you in May 08.
Edit: Spelling. Hate to have my last post here have spelling errors. ;)
Hey, I got an idea. Instead of including ALL of the core rules in just the PHB and DMG, why don't they just fan out these critical rules over a variety of "Complete"-type books?
For what its worth, the above comment was TOTALLY tongue-in-cheek.
How do you play a game without all of the rules to begin with?
I think I would be better off if I went to my FLGS and found 4e on the shelf having never heard that a 4th edition was being published. I am not opposed to a 4e, even if it comes sooner than they said it would but the things I keep hearing, like these MM changes, are bothering me. I think I am simply not going to read this forum anymore and pretend it doesn't exist. I can then approach 4e when I can look over the books in the store. I cannot imagen that WotC cares what I think of the changes and thus any angst concerning them is a waste of my time and energy.
Goodbye, 4th edition forum, I will see you in May 08.
Yeah, Right!!! ;) (just teasin!)
As long as they have some usable monsters in the 4e MM, not some crappy ones like some of what was in the 3e MM, I think it'll be fine. I can say for certain I haven't used even half of the monsters of the 3e MM.
Well, the hope is that after they remove silver dragons, they will then remove the miniatures. And all pictures of the miniatures. And then you will have to post using the Vomit Guy picture instead of a dragon.MHA HA HA!!
Hmmm Cruel and Unusual. I like Maybe we can select an iconic or "classic" D&D monster list. Start those lists:
Red Dragon
Black Dragon
Troll
Goblin
Hobgoblin
Beholder
Ankheg
Werewolf
Iron Golem
Flesh Golem
Fire Giant
Frost Giant
Manticore
Wyvern
Tarasque
Gelantinous cube
Sucubi
Balor
Vrock
Treant
Kobold
Vampire
Mind Flayer
Wraith
Zombie
Skeleton
Lich
Behir
Ogre
Phase Spider
Mimic
Basilisk
Bulette
Imp
Doppelganger
Well, if they make a "core" rulebook without all the "core" content that I would expect, then this would make me favor "not to buy".
This sounds like a blatant marketing ploy - Monster Manuals seem to have been big sellers in 3.x, or there would not have been 6 of them in 8 years, not counting MoF. So, it seems an obvious way to ensure sales - MMs are sellers anyway, so lets sell more of them by spreading the "core" content over several. I don´t like that approach - it is GW-like to me.
Stefan
Do they offer an explanation, or they just spend 10 minutes after the announcement giggling like Beavis and Butthead saying "heh, heh, yeah, this'll be kewl."
Well, you do get to hear Dave Noonan laugh and ask, "what's a guardinal?" when James Wyatt mentions that they have "put a bullet in its head." (Not a term I really liked hearing by the way, but maybe that's just me)
Then you get to hear James Wyatt not being able to figure out what plane guardinals were from, and eveyrone having a good chuckle over the situation.
Now, I've used guardinals approximately 0 times in my campaigns thus far, and I'm not saying I'm particularly tied to their survival (though I have nothing against them either). But rather than joking about how the designers, the guys telling us this will be the same game and they know what needs to be in or out of the game, can't be bothered to know what various elements are, how about we try something else?
Like maybe just saying that there isn't a big fan connection to guardials, so they aren't going through the effort to convert them since they don't occupy a niche that they need to fill initially, and that a plane of Neutral Good isn't a plane that likely to bring in a lot of adventurers, so detailing inhabitants of a plane like that isn't a priority. That I could deal with.
Laughing about things they can't keep straight doesn't do much for me. Oh, and I never used guardianals, but without being paid to do so, I knew they were NG outsiders that lived in Elysium. I don't think its so much that they can't keep these things straight, but that they can't be bothered by things they don't think are "cool."
I think that I shouldn't have to by these old fashioned 'books' you keep talking about. I want monsters with cool art work on one side and the stats on the other. They could even sell them in packs to make it more convenient. Oh and they could have cool alternate art that we could collect.
"I hope I get a red dragon... crinkle crinkle... oh man! I already have seven hobgoblins, but wait this is one of the "Hobgoblin Elite" series of art... awesome. I can't wait to trade Billy for his Christmas Drider variant!!"
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Ok. This worries me for two possible outcomes.
a) The SRD is too loose and we'll have generics of everything in the 3x SRD that's not in the 4.x monster manual
or
b) The 4.x will be written in a way to prevernt this, and invalidate the planned Tome of Horrors 4.x
I'd like Option A but expect the Weaslesof the Coast (Their lawyers, not their designers) will give us B.
~cries of horror~ No! You dirty rotten SOB! How dare you exclude my kind from the MM!!! ~growls and snarls~
Well, the hope is that after they remove silver dragons, they will then remove the miniatures. And all pictures of the miniatures. And then you will have to post using the Vomit Guy picture instead of a dragon.
MHA HA HA!!
Hey! I resemble that remark!
I think that I shouldn't have to by these old fashioned 'books' you keep talking about. I want monsters with cool art work on one side and the stats on the other. They could even sell them in packs to make it more convenient. Oh and they could have cool alternate art that we could collect.
"I hope I get a red dragon... crinkle crinkle... oh man! I already have seven hobgoblins, but wait this is one of the "Hobgoblin Elite" series of art... awesome. I can't wait to trade Billy for his Christmas Drider variant!!"
LOL!!!!
"Oh snap. Another Kobold. Thats 16 total in the last 14 booster packs I bought. When am I going to get the Troll? Damn, these booster packs are costing me $11.99 each!" :(
Please no playful turns on their name. I had enough of that when it was T$R or They Sue Regularly. I don't need to relive that and it's like swearing when your trying to make a point. You give people a chance to focus on that instead of your clever and intelligent arguement.
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I think that I shouldn't have to by these old fashioned 'books' you keep talking about. I want monsters with cool art work on one side and the stats on the other. They could even sell them in packs to make it more convenient. Oh and they could have cool alternate art that we could collect.
"I hope I get a red dragon... crinkle crinkle... oh man! I already have seven hobgoblins, but wait this is one of the "Hobgoblin Elite" series of art... awesome. I can't wait to trade Billy for his Christmas Drider variant!!"
Well they did something like that in AD&D 2nd Edition. You could buy a big notebook and buy the supplements in packages and insert them. The problem was of course that they tore out, became bent, creased and torn. Then you had to buy that pack again to replace a couple of popular monsters.
It was a horrible idea from my point of view. I no longer had a durable easy to use book to reference to. Instead, I had sheets of paper that were strewn everywhere and stepped on and had soda spilled on them, etc (maybe a little exaggeration but not much).
I much prefer to either have a book or a PDF. Individual pages may seem cool until you use them in practice. Now doing that system with PDFs would be fine. I can print the ones I want or just use the computer with individual pages I need.
Well they did something like that in AD&D 2nd Edition. You could buy a big notebook and buy the supplements in packages and insert them. The problem was of course that they tore out, became bent, creased and torn. Then you had to buy that pack again to replace a couple of popular monsters.It was a horrible idea from my point of view. I no longer had a durable easy to use book to reference to. Instead, I had sheets of paper that were strewn everywhere and stepped on and had soda spilled on them, etc (maybe a little exaggeration but not much).
I much prefer to either have a book or a PDF. Individual pages may seem cool until you use them in practice. Now doing that system with PDFs would be fine. I can print the ones I want or just use the computer with individual pages I need.
I hated the 2nd edition break out of core monsters into multiple packets. Correction, I loathed it. For every "eh, so what" monster that was left out, there was a "every game should have one" that was omitted as well. Another, thanks but no thanks move by WotC.
I know I've been banging on about this, but D&D needs less frothy expensive books to clutter our lives with. Now that they're getting naked in their greed, it's just added another six months to my purchasing of 4th ed, knocking it up to Christmas 2009.
Nice one, lads.
I know I've been banging on about this, but D&D needs less frothy expensive books to clutter our lives with. Now that they're getting naked in their greed, it's just added another six months to my purchasing of 4th ed, knocking it up to Christmas 2009.
Nice one, lads.
Well put -- naked in their greed.
While I wasn't in any big hurry to get 4/e, I simply won't be buying (ever) if the first MM isn't comprehensive in terms of core monsters.
There's a limit to how far I'll be manipulated and exploited.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Arch-lich, you posted:
"I think that I shouldn't have to by these old fashioned 'books' you keep talking about. I want monsters with cool art work on one side and the stats on the other. They could even sell them in packs to make it more convenient. Oh and they could have cool alternate art that we could collect."
TSR did that in 1st Edition, actually, with sets of collectible creature cards. Each pack (there were four of them, not randomized) introduced three new critters. The only new ones I recall were the Galeb Duhr and the Thri-kreen.
I bought all sorts of crap from TSR back then.
If the MM1 doesn't have enough of the "core" monsters to interest me, then its very likely I'll just rely on the SRD (its not like I don't know what the monsters look like) for the stats, and then buy Tome of Horrors 4th edition... or something similiar from Green Ronin (ie. Book of Fiends), etc
Not sure if they really thought about that angle. Unless the 4.0 OGL prohibits anyone from using a big list of names, as someone else mentioned above. And even then, that could get a little tricky, since those monsters are in the OGL 3.5... so that could be used for the inspiration legally (I think), etc...
Ahem... I've avoided all of the podcasts... waste of time... until this one...
I just finished vomiting. (That's the Kneejerk reaction talking).
::deep sigh::
I don't have a problem with spreading out the classic monsters over multiple Monster Manuals. I'm going to be saddened by it, but that's okay, I could wait for monsters.
I do, however, have an issue with completely removing one entire group of "good celestial beings" That are from Elysium, not Bytopia (the web page itself, in the notes states this, not Noonan). I also feel that laughing about them is a little more than condescending, especially when added to "I'm sure I just offended planescape fans" or somesuch. That seems as if none of the lore, none of the hard work, nothing was worth it for 3 editions of the game. I find that disheartening at best, downright insulting at second-to worst (there is a worse step than this).
We'll just say I have very strong words for what they are doing to the Planes, the Forgotten Realms, MWP and Dragonlance, the dissolution of 2 great magazines, and what they did to Greyhawk. None of them are nice.
The people writing don't seem to me to be writing for a moderately intelligent crowd (they are using language I wouldn't consider, i.e. bullet in the head??). It looks to me as if they are writing for a magazine written by Beavis and Butt-head. What's sad is that I'm TRYING to listen, TRYING to believe this is going to be better. In my heart, I don't believe it will. There's just too much spin, and not enough substance or fact in it yet.
/d
Sounds as if 4E will be released in 15 minute serials. Tune in next week for an exciting edition of....White Dragons!
As of late, naming something with iThingie or thingPod appears to be a requirement. You won't actually need an iPod to listen to one. Simply download the "podcast" and listen to it (if you are so inclined) on your computer with something like Juice, which I use to listen to Thistle and Shamrock at work (as streaming media doesn't work there, and we have zero radio reception in the faraday cage).
Podcasts are far from a waste of time. True, if I had nothing else to do, I wouldn't listen to a podcast either. But when I'm working, or commuting or travelling, time goes a lot quicker if you listen at something, be it music or podcasts.
I like them, even though the WOTC one is far from my favorite.
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Someone mentioned earlier (although I think it was more tongue in cheek) that they could follow this multiple Monster Manual model with the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide and eliminate Complete type books ...
That is actually exactly what I think they are planning. WOTC has already told us to expect PHB and DMG II as well as additional PHB and DMGs every year or so. We also know (or at least strongly suspect) that Gnomes will not be in the Players Handbook - I foresee Gnomes in PHB II.
If you look at the various Complete books, you could argue that about half of each book, more or less, is really good and the remainder is obviously filler. Most of the good info in the average Complete book could easily be devided into PHB stuff (new races, new classes etc) and DMG stuff (Prestige Classes, rules variants etc). So, instead of a bunch of 4E Complete books, which some people would reject, they put out very similar content but in the PHB II and the DMG II, the PHB III and DMG III etc. The public sees these as 'must have' core books instead of optional books. It makes perfect sense (well, to me at least)
Oh, and most Podcasts are worth at least a listen while driving etc. I listen to them while I'm folding laundry ...
Let's give them the benefit of the doubt that there will be 300 monsters, spread out over 30 levels. You do the math.
Don't forget D&D Insider. If you don't like the idea of core monsters spread out over several books, you'll really love core things spread out over "bonus" material you have to pay extra for and can only access online.
Peace!
Love!
Dope!
Someone mentioned earlier (although I think it was more tongue in cheek) that they could follow this multiple Monster Manual model with the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide and eliminate Complete type books ...
That is actually exactly what I think they are planning. WOTC has already told us to expect PHB and DMG II as well as additional PHB and DMGs every year or so. We also know (or at least strongly suspect) that Gnomes will not be in the Players Handbook - I foresee Gnomes in PHB II.
If you look at the various Complete books, you could argue that about half of each book, more or less, is really good and the remainder is obviously filler. Most of the good info in the average Complete book could easily be devided into PHB stuff (new races, new classes etc) and DMG stuff (Prestige Classes, rules variants etc). So, instead of a bunch of 4E Complete books, which some people would reject, they put out very similar content but in the PHB II and the DMG II, the PHB III and DMG III etc. The public sees these as 'must have' core books instead of optional books. It makes perfect sense (well, to me at least)
Oh, and most Podcasts are worth at least a listen while driving etc. I listen to them while I'm folding laundry ...
You know, at first my gut reaction was "AAARRGGHHH!!! NOOO!!! THOSE BASTARDS!!!".
But then I thought about it a bit. I realize I actually might enjoy having multiple players handbooks, if each followed a standard format. If I got 8 new classes, new spells feats and equipment for those classes, and some new races thrown in, it could be a really good product. Not as specialized as a complete XX book, but then again, I king of like the broad range of appeal. If it replaces the yearly rehash of class centric books, I just might jump on the bandwagon.
Of course there's a big IF, and thats quality. I can see PHB1 being top knotch, with the 4 "core" classes and 4 secondary classes. I can see PHB2 being a hit, with the druid, barbarian, monk, psion, half orc, gnome and such taking the spotlight. But after that? I imagine they will once again be delving into all the wierd exostential races and classes we saw cobbled togethger in the last 2 years of 3.5.
COuld be intresting, will have to wait and see.