I only recently acquired an old copy of Savage Species and found very interesting things in there.
Considering the vaunted compatibility between Pathfinder and D&D 3.5, I was wondering if the following was legit under Pathfinder RPG, and if people could chime in about having done it or seen it done:
1) Monsters as PCs:
- Are the stat adjustments really computed from the 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10 array?
2) Templates and PCs:
- I haven't seen a "monstrous HD" entry in the templates, are they only using Level Adjustment (LA) to compute the PC's ECL?
- 1-HD creatures (humans, elves, dwarves, etc.) can be played by removing the HD before adding class levels.
Is the template's LA to be added to the base creature's HD before or after doing this? What's the ECL of a human fighter 1 with a +2 LA template: 3 or 4?
- Some templates give bonuses dependent on HD, is this the PC's total HD (including class levels) or the possible monstrous HD he gets before class levels?
(I'm thinking about Feral Creature, here, which is a mere +1 LA and gives significant advantages depending on HD)
- How is computed the ECL from the Tauric and Lycanthrope templates?
3) Playing:
- Do you, dear readers, have experienced playing with a templated creature? A multi-templated one? Are there templates (or other options) that are to be really avoided?
- Have you played with wierd characters concepts by using this book?
Having watched Kung-Fu Panda with my son (again), I'm thinking of building a Feral Anthropomorphic Leopard with levels in Monk and Fist of the Forest. How would that go?
To be fair, Savage Species barely worked with 3rd edition.
1. Monster PC stats are determined just like any other characters (rolled, point buy, tossing the bones). What you're talking about is the way to determine a monsters stat bonus' by minusing 10 or 11 from the base score. An easy mistake (the whole book is a trap like that).
2. Most templates do not add any HD. Things like feral, insectoid and so forth only modify the base creature's (or character's) stats and often grant other abilities. I'd say, don't use them with PC's. It really is a headache and only leads to lopsided characters with alot of power, but not alot of hit points.
Levels do count as HD except when they don't. Very rarely a monsters abilities will depend on racial HD only. None of the templates you're thinking of do this. A 10th level feral bard is he same as a 10 HD feral rakshasa for the purposes of ferals abilities.
3. Anthropomorphics are horribly imbalenced. I don't have the book in front of me, but I'm pretty sure any of the big cats are severely lopsided. With the feral template you're looking at a 1st level monk in a fourth level party. Yeah, your stats and abilities are huge, but you'll have crap for hp.
I played a baleen whale, by RAW starts out with no natural attack or weapon profs, but as a monsterous humanoid has a fighters base attack. I took exotic weapon great spear at first level and proved to be horribly overpowered because of it. They have 3 racial HD and no level adjustment and that is just wrong. It proved my point so well I was banned from using the book to make characters ever again. This by a DM who loves anthropomorphics!
In closing, just be smart about what you are doing. Savage Species is a helluva fun book to use, but the second you dominate an encounter the book itself gets blamed, not the player using it. This leads to the content getting banned and no one having any fun.
Savage Species has some real holes in it.
1) Lycanthropic creatures don't really factor in the strength of the animal. So a were-mastodon and a were-rat have similar CLs, but guess who's more dangerous?
2) Not all the templates are created equal. +1 isn't always = +1.
3) There are combos that are more powerful than others. A fiendish Treant for example, is fire-proof, and resistant to slashing weapons. This is WAY better for a treant than for a person.
Plus there is the amazing broken-ness of 'Roll With It' a feat whose sole pre req is a 20 constition that gives stacking DR/- that can be taken as many times as you want.
And the DR it gives is twice the amount given by an epic feat with the same exact prerequisite.
My GM is pretty darn liberal and likes a nice high powered game and even SHE banned it.
I love the ideas in Savage Species and use them all the time.
I also house rule every single stat and game mechanic in the book. As others have said, as written, Savage Species has some major problems. So, I've gone through and done house ruled versions of most of the templates, monster progressions, and anthropomorphics (especially them).
Thanks for your input. I guess that using any part of this book will be subject to the local GM's approval, so it's useless to create a "build" here.
I would like to play a non-standard PC, but all I've seen is a couple comments for the GM. Is Pathfinder RPG going to expand on this?
It's perhaps possible to establish a racial class progression table for all races (including the standard races).
Let people create a character without racial abilities or class (a "blank sheet" if you will, or "HD 0").
Just let them decide what racial classes they are eligible to (max 2 of them? 3? 4?).
Then, as their character advances, let them add either regular class levels/prestige classes, or racial levels in said racial classes.
- Creature X - Type - Hit Die sides - Racial Skills and skill points per level
- initial stats if not a PC
Level 1 - <first racial abilities/subtypes/additional limbs/skills/feats/etc.> - CR X
Level 2 - <additional abilities/etc.> - CR Y - <compiled statblock for a young monster?>
Level 3 - <additional abilities/etc.> - CR Z
etc.
Level Max - <additional abilities/etc.> - old CR - <compiled statblock for a standard full-fledged monster>
...
Level +N - <advanced abilities> - enhanced CR - <compiled statblock for a more advanced monster>
Using this would allow people to play PCs of any race and of any level, as well as improving transparency between PCs, NPCs, and monsters.
Besides, that would also give options for half-and-half creatures, by advancing levels in several racial classes.
For instance, an Ogre "shaman" with a distant Troll ancestor could take three levels of Ogre and one of Troll, before going Cleric.
Sorcerers could link their Bloodline to a not-so-distant ancestor.
Every character wanting racial abilities would have to take at least one racial level (reflecting their early childhood/education/racial abilities), dubbed "Level 0"
If they don't, they won't gain racial abilities (consider that the character has been trained from early childhood into a class and didn't have time to develop his racial advantages).
GM starting a campaign could choose to do so at "level 0" (young people having no experience except for their racial abilities) or 1 (people with, for instance, 1 racial level + 1 class level).
Compared to standard rules, characters could start "level 1" with a little more HP, which I don't think is bad in itself.
If a race has too powerful abilities for his HD, his powers can be split over more HD and his HD die be lowered. For instance, a 3 d8 HD monster with a lot of SLA (typically one with a high LA) can be made into a 4 d6 HD monster (or even a 6 d4 HD), splitting his abilities over more levels. Particularly hearty races with few abilities could have a higher hit dice, too.
Real animals would have a starting Int of 1 or 2. Anthropomorphic animals would take one or more levels in the related animal racial class.
It's perhaps also possible to acquire costly templates by spending a level or several:
- Template T
Level 1 - <first part of the transformation, usually all the drawbacks>
Level 2 - <second part>
etc.
Level Max - <final part>
Imposed templates (afflicted lycanthropy, for instance) could be applied immediately, forcing the character to take his next level in "Lycanthropy Template, level 1."
A lot of work, I suppose. Still, something I'd like very much. I might even do it myself, unless someone already did it?
Imposed templates (afflicted lycanthropy, for instance) could be applied immediately, forcing the character to take his next level in "Lycanthropy Template, level 1."
Alternatively, templates could be given as a whole, with a penalty consisting of as many special "negative levels" as the template's LA.
These negative levels wouldn't be restored by Restoration, and they wouldn't kill a low-level character (or they could if we considered the system shock incurred by the first transformation).The HP penalty would stop at the character's first HD.
When the character's experience allows him to gain a new level, he could opt to buy back one of these negative levels instead of gaining a new class level.