My players and I like a bit of grittier feel to our games, and have all agreed to ban the spells Fly, Teleport, Dimension Door, and Improved Invis from the game. Creatures with these abilities can still use them, but whatever reason they were never developed as spells.
One side effect of this change is that players can't just teleport away from danger/to a destination. They can't zip off to Magic Wal-Mart to purchase scrolls, potions, or other new magic items (and Farshore does not have a magic Wal Mart).
Right now the party is approaching the Sargasso in SWW and so far the change has not had a detrimental impact. What I'm wondering is: will the party be irreparably crippled in the later modules? Are those four spells literally "must-haves" for mid to high level Dungeons & Dragons play.
Paizo's higher-level adventures mostly seem to take it for granted that the party can fly. It's not strictly essential, but adventures are designed to play like "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon," rather than like "Enter the Dragon." And if you can't fly, you'd better all have Climb modifiers of like +30.
Paizo's higher-level adventures mostly seem to take it for granted that the party can fly. It's not strictly essential, but adventures are designed to play like "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon," rather than like "Enter the Dragon." And if you can't fly, you'd better all have Climb modifiers of like +30.
Hm. That's unfortunate, but good to know. Maybe I can hook them up with a carpet of flying, maybe some winged boots or other items, all tweaked so that they can't be constantly "on".
My players and I like a bit of grittier feel to our games, and have all agreed to ban the spells Fly, Teleport, Dimension Door, and Improved Invis from the game. Creatures with these abilities can still use them, but whatever reason they were never developed as spells.
One side effect of this change is that players can't just teleport away from danger/to a destination. They can't zip off to Magic Wal-Mart to purchase scrolls, potions, or other new magic items (and Farshore does not have a magic Wal Mart).
Right now the party is approaching the Sargasso in SWW and so far the change has not had a detrimental impact. What I'm wondering is: will the party be irreparably crippled in the later modules? Are those four spells literally "must-haves" for mid to high level Dungeons & Dragons play.
You've basically picked the best spells and spell-like abilities and taken them from the players. If you're players like severe handicaps and not being able to take on higher level adventures where these things are necessary to actually tackle the adventures, then so be it.
I think you're making a mistake. And your players are definitely going to be unhappy as they reach the levels in which these things would be available to them and they aren't, yet their enemies are making liberal use of them.Edit: Now that I've reacted negatively to your idea, let me try to provide some helpful tips as well. You're going to need to pay close attention to providing your players with certain items that will make up for those teleport limitations and being grounded. Potions of fly and invisibility are not a bad idea and since they are a single shot item, they won't hurt the spirit of your house rule. A carpet of flying is also not a bad idea. See the encounter with Zotzilaha and his treasure in Tides of Dread as an area where you can replace what's there with tailored items for your needs. The carpet of flying idea isn't bad. Boots of teleportation would be good too, but as a 1/day use item. You might also consider a wand of dimension door (but rename it so the party doesn't realize that's what it is) with only a few charges left on it and a unique way of activating it.
You've basically picked the best spells and spell-like abilities and taken them from the players.
Well, no. I've removed access to them. It's not like the players had these abilities, and I took them away. We all agreed that those spells aren't that fun, and so decided to delete them from the list of available spells. The party sorcerer can still pick any other spell from that list.
If you're players like severe handicaps and not being able to take on higher level adventures where these things are necessary to actually tackle the adventures, then so be it.
Well, that's the thing. I like multiple solutions to problems/obstacles. If every obstacle can be solved with one spell, and only that one spell, then that's not fun. It's poor level design. What if, for whatever reason, the player of the arcane caster choose not to pick "Fly" as a spell? Or if the party lacks an arcane caster entirely? What--does a big sign pop up and simply say "your adventure ends here"?
A good adventure should not make any assumptions about player spell selection or composition. The purpose of this thread was to find out if the STAP made such assumptions. Looks like it did. :(
I think you're making a mistake. And your players are definitely going to be unhappy as they reach the levels in which these things would be available to them and they aren't, yet their enemies are making liberal use of them.
Well, their enemies will be lacking them too--as spells, that is. Spell-like abilities will still be available.
Edit: Now that I've reacted negatively to your idea, let me try to provide some helpful tips as well. You're going to need to pay close attention to providing your players with certain items that will make up for those teleport limitations and being grounded. Potions of fly and invisibility are not a bad idea and since they are a single shot item, they won't hurt the spirit of your house rule. A carpet of flying is also not a bad idea. See the encounter with Zotzilaha and his treasure in Tides of Dread as an area where you can replace what's there with tailored items for your needs. The carpet of flying idea isn't bad. Boots of teleportation would be good too, but as a 1/day use item.
Those are good ideas. The point of the spell limitation was to impart the game with a dramatic, gritty feel. There's no instant escape, no ridiculously easy "get out of jail free" card to recharge batteries and pop off to Greyhawk to buy whatever magic items they care to buy.
I particularly like the idea of a 1/day, limited item. Maybe something like a Teleport that goes back (and forth) between specific locations, kind of like Diablo's scroll of Town Portal.
How about this? A pair of items that, when activated, transports the user (and his party) from the location of one of the items to the location of the other. When the party departs, they leave behind a portion of their souls. While so separated, they cannot heal magically, auto-fail any saves, and every day they are away they take 1 point of ability damage to all abilities. These penalties instantly go away when they are reunited.
This makes the use of such items a truly "emergency only" event. And allows brief forays back to town while heavily discouraging "scry and fry" tactics.
Thanks Greg. Well, that's the thing. What if the mass market player didn't happen to choose those spells? Wouldn't it be better to include multiple solutions to encounters?
I guess you run into the issue of potential wasted effort on the writer's part. I mean, if the writer writes a cool encounter on a thin bridge in an ancient dwarven mine, and the players just say "er, no big deal: we cast Fly and go over it", then that's not very fun. :)
Speaking of LotR, man, D&D spells would ruin that whole book.
Bilbo: "Hey Gandalf! Check out my ring!"
Gandalf: "Let me see.. hm..." [Identify, Legend Lore.] This is no ordinary ring! It is The One Ring!"
Bilbo: "That's bad, right? How do we destroy it?"
Gandalf: [Divination] "We need to take it Mt. Doom." [Scry] "Looks like the coast is clear." [Teleport, toss].
Bilbo: "Well, I'm glad that's over."
I'm not sure how this really imparts a grittier feel per se. The magic Wal-mart thing I can understand, but then just don't put one in that has nothing to do with the spells. The teleporting away from danger I have rarily seen in my game, if ever, but then I would just change the casting time of Teleport to 1 full round or more to make it less of flee combat thing.
Using teleport to get somewhere is kinda what what the spells for. There has already been a thread on the virtues of being able to teleport in this adventure path that you may want to check out. What's really the issue with it? Is it that the players miss out on some fun? Do they miss someting really important to your game by teleporting around it? Do they feel like they are missing something? If they feel like they are missing something then they can just opt to not use it.
Fly is just a great spell and IMHO a iconic spell for D&D. Yeah it can get you out of a jam sometimes really easily. If you want people to think outside of the box then that's fine. Just keep in mind that some people like to play in certain boxes and that's whats fun for them. Sure you can give them magic items to replace it but then your taking away other magic items that can add additional flavor to the game or their characters in exchange for a spell that they would normally had access to.
Granted if your player don't care then all is good and I'm just blowing smoke. ;) I do think that in the later adventures there will definately be times where the players will wish they had them.
I hear you. It's a flavor thing. So much of the Savage Tide is you're journeying to this exotic, far away place--the Isle of Dread!--and if it's a simple snap-of-the-fingers away, then that cheapens the whole experience.
Maybe I'll do a compromise, and just bump the spell level by one or two levels. Perhaps in this particular continuity of Greyhawk, the barriers between dimensions are just a little thicker/harder to penetrate. The power of Earth (and gravity) are just a little stronger. The veil of illusion just a little fainter.
I can see the point of view you are coming from... and personally I agree, since in our campaigns we have limited these spells, mostly with regard to their tactical value (e.g. like making teleport a 10 full-round spell to cast... but I disgress ).
But the STAP assumes that these spells are existant, and in some cases are available to the players, especially as defensive measures (Dim Door happens to be a favourite of mages getting swallwoed by Large dinosaurs etc around here... or grappled by big tentacly things... or.... or ... or...
You also will run into problems with some players being able to cleverly work around your limitations - druids will be able to fly by wildshaping, or summoning creatures to carry them. Mages have "polymorph" - everyone becomes an Avarielle Elf/whatever and flutters around happily (ok, fly has become slightly more expensive... but is still possible )... "Fire Wings" plus "Cloud Wing" spells = very fast flight. Elemental companion druid with a personal large elemental to carry him along ? Or any other flight-capable animal companion ? Or perhaps a steed with "Air Walk" cast on it ?
Same goes for "teleport" - summon a monster with teleport ability and have it teleport you..... Planeshift ? "Summon the Elsewhale" please.... or a Djinn... or....
Now will you go on and ban these spells and uses too ? Sisyphus has nothing on you !
Overall - yes players will miss these spells, and IMHO, this will make several of the Isle of Dread adventures far more difficult. It will also make the finale fight with Vanthus and his minions (in the Abyss) far more difficult and rather unfair even... It will strongly limit character development while the group is based in Farshore. Players will notice and consider workarounds for the problems caused.
There was a nice thread by paradox contemplating the problems of a druid with a flying animal companion on the Isle of Dread.
That is precise enough for an answer ?
PS if you want to be consequent, strike "Wind Walk" and "Shadow Walk" from your campaign as well, since both spells duplicate the effect of "Teleport" rather too nicely.
Actually, add some flavour that makes players loath to use the spells instead of banning them. Eliminating the "floats down" clause from flight for the event of a dispel magic being cast to counter it worked wonders hereabouts. How about having teleporting players make a DC 25 Fort Save or spend 2D6 rounds "nauseated" after a port + a DC 25 Will save or be hmmm..... "slowed" as their bodies adjust ? Or scatter them some ?
PPS be warned - my group went out of their way to go and "charm monster" the roc on the isle of Dread.... they wanted their personal jet..... they have it now
PPPS Gandalf did not have any item of anyone near Mt. Doom to "scry" on. And artifacts cannot be "identified" anyway... not that Gandalf was even willing to TOUCH the One Ring.... =)
I'd group these spells into two categories. First, you have your spells which give you battlefield superiority. These include fly, dimension door, and improved invisibility, amongst others. Second, you have spells which supersede mundane travel/encounters/hazards. Obviously, this includes the teleport-family of spells, but also includes most divinations, such as discern location, commune, and legend lore.
The problem with restricting these spells is that, theoretically, the game is balanced in such a way as to allow each character to adjucate his/her resources to overcome a wide variety of problems. Many classes fall short of others when their potential is curbed, and thus, the characters will fail to meet their expectations if they are restricted.
Spells that influence the battlefield are often one of the few saving graces a capable spellcaster has in order to survive in combat. Need to get to a higher ledge where the sniper is shooting at you? You could fly, or better, d-door up to him and even the odds. Fly isn't one of those spells that will get you over long spans of land efficiently, just short distances; same for d-door. And with regards to stealth, regular invisibility actually is better, as it's a minutes per level spell, versus rounds per level. Improved invisibility is meant to give spellcasters an edge when fighting foes who rely on sight.
Now, when it comes to spells that overcome obstacles, those rarely become an issue until mid or, more so, high-level play. There, the campaign's tone will have changed to be more event-oriented, so that travel and expeditions should not become norm; climactic encounters with fearsome foes will be.
Ultimately, I'd recommend against banning these spells, if for no better reason than the players will not get them until it's expected they will be able to make them useful to them; and that by the time they do, not having them will stifle the game.
Contributor
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Just a clarify something, at least how I see it:
Most of the time, when adventures are built to take high level spells into account, the main accounting is "How can I design this so a player with teleport can't wreck the whole encounter?" rather than "How can I make it neccessary for players to have teleport?"
I can't speak specifically to the Savage Tide in that regard, except that I do know one particular thing. It is assumed that the players will be able to get themselves back to civilization quickly to resupply in some of the adventures, by some means or other. Since there are so many, it is reasonable to assume that any party that has none of those means at their disposal actively chose not to.
This particular shouldn't bother your party if they aren't expecting to be able to go to the olde magic shop and buy whatever they want anyways. Mainly you will just need to convert a lot of cash treasure into useful treasure in many instances.
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I think it is a bad idea to restrict spells like that. It gives the feeling that spellcasters are being arbitrarily punished so that they can't "ruin" the game. Spells like Fly and Dimension door are short duration tactical spells that make surviving combat easier for the caster who already suffers from poor hit points and low AC. Greater Invisibility, is designed to give a caster a way to blast stuff without immediately putting a huge bulls eye on his chest that says to every opponent in the encounter "kill me first!!!". Spells like Teleport and Greater Teleport already have inherent weaknesses built in. With Teleport it is the miss chance. Want to teleport to civilization? If it isn't a place you are intimately familiar with better be ready to be off by a hundred miles or so. In the STAP getting from the Isle of Dread to say Sasserine, that might mean teleporting into the air directly over the ocean in a hurricane. That is an inherent risk. If the caster wants to take it, then he should be able to get to civilazation if he succeeds. There is a reason that mundane ships and such exist in a world where casters can teleport and the like. The ship is more reliable, and the caster might prefer to have an extra fireball there to kill the next Tyrannosaurus he fights instead of wasting it on a Teleport he will likely only use if things get dire. In the case of Greater Teleport, there is no miss chance, but if your party greater teleports everywhere, then they miss out on the treasure and experience they could have gotten from the encounters on the way. So there is already a built in trade off. By teleporting to bypass encounters, they are losing valuable treasure and XP that may be needed to overcome the final challenges they will face later. Further, Greater Teleport requires you to know where you are going. That is a lot easier with high level divinations, but are you going to ban those too? Either way, I have never seen a party that would willingly give up treasure and XP just so they can bypass half the adventure to go straight to fight the 35 HD Fiendish Fang Dragon. Most players aren't that stupid. They know they need the XP and treasure to make their characters strong enough to survive the battle with Khala the Twin-Headed. If they aren't smart enough to realize that, then they will learn it when they are making their new character because their 12th level wizard got killed because he should have been 15th level if he had done everything he was supposed to in the adventure instead of bypassing it with a teleport.
I think it is never good or fair as a DM to arbitrarily take things away from the characters. The D&D game system is built with the idea that characters will have access to certain things by certain levels. I don't see anyone clamoring to take feats away from a fighter or the animal companion from a ranger to keep them from bypassing things. Maybe you should ban Power Attack since it makes it easier for your fighters to get damage through DR or take away a Rogues sneak attack damage since it lets them get an unfair advantage on a flat footed opponent. Casters aren't anymore broken in D&D than any other class. There is a price casters pay for every ability they have. Whether that is their low hp and AC or the fact that they can teleport themselves into the middle of a brick wall. Keeping a caster alive and fun to play is dependent on the caster being able to do some things to keep themselves alive. If you take away all their tactical options you are making a fighter who can't wear armor, can't wield weapons, and occasionally gets to throw a lightning bolt and that is it. There are better ways to handle the problems you have that those spells pose. Most of it is already taken care of in the inherent balances of the game, but if that isn't enough for you, there are still better ways to handle it than to simply ban elements that are core components of the game.
You could also consider wrapping up the campaign earlier. If you're going for a grittier feel to the game, then a bunch of plane hopping, god meeting, and massively powered battles might not be too your taste anyway.
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I say go for it.
It's easy to say mid-game "OK, that doesn't seem to be working anymore, lets allow teleport (or D-Door, or all, whatever) and see if things get better for you guys.
For those who poo-poo the change, remember, if the OP is being honest here, the PLAYERS are down with the change, and I for one am a believer in making the game fun for the players. If thats their idea of fun, so be it.
I am pretty sure I could come up with ways to resupply, get across the chasm, bypass orcus's minions, whatever, without those spells. Heck, another poster even identified how to do most of it: Air walk, air elemental companion to carry you, Planar ally with teleport as a spell-like ability. As a result, strategic movement isn't really hindered. As for tactical (combat) movement, deal with it. The encounters may be a bit tougher as a result, but oh well, compensate in other ways.
Sounds like your players like a challenge and miss the old 1st edition feel of getting creative with spells. Good luck!
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well, the tactical importance of having greater maneuverability than your foes cannot be overstated.
that is, if they can't fly, and you can, you have a much greater chance of success.
so, Fly becomes a very important tactical consideration. without it, demons, especially Vrocks, Half-fiends, and Succubi become very very difficult to deal with.
imagine 3 vrocks dancing up a storm about 50-75 ft up in the air, over a chasm, body of water, or somesuch. without the ability to fly, that party's going to take that dance of ruin to the face.
D-Door shows its utility when your wizard/sorcerer has been grappled by a sneaky-thing, or something that can make its way through the party.
without a reliable means to free himself, hugging the caster to death becomes much much more reliable for enemies.
teleport comes into play at minimun 9th lvl, or 10th lvl if you're a sorc. now, unless they're psions/ardents, they can't simply teleport all over creation. we're talking about 1 single trip, with a max of 4 people travelling, which is not guaranteed to succeed. hardly game breaking.
also, at higher levels, (like 10th and up), playing up the "survival horror" aspect of the game just seems like a waste of time. why should you calculate out the food supply, or things like that, when the party can actually bypass the "travel to the next adventure" time.
maybe i'm biased towards our own style of gameplay, as i have 1 pc, and 2 cohorts capable of teleporting (Nomad/Elocator, Ardent/Elocator/Wayfinder Guide, and Conjurer/Wayfinder Guide). they go all over the place, even going so far as to establish way-points across the map to facilitate easier transit from place to place. they also started their own affiliation, basically creating the Wayfinder's Guide (called the Z Couriers).
imp. invisibility, meh, regular invis is more my style anyways. and again, this means that @ 7th or 8th lvl, the arcanist cannot aid the rogue in his job of stabbity death as much as his job of sneaky scout guy.
-the hamster
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I agree with the other posters that there are better ways of dealing with these spells than outright banning them. As the hamster says above, taking away Fly is a massive handicap against flying foes - I've had party members die in otherwise equal or even easy encounters because they couldn't get airborne. And what it so bad about Greater Invisibility - there are several ways of dealing with this, as pointed out on these boards.
While I know this is a consensual agreement between players and DM, taking this approach on a published module designed with these approaches in mind could go very badly. There's gritty, and then there is simply unfair.
I'm going to mirror the sentiments of most everyone else and say leave the spells as they are. You can work around these limitations with other abilities, and honestly the spells mentioned aren't Instant Win buttons.
Fly is useful for sure, but not required. A wise party will just have to pick up some effective ranged firepower if none of them can fly. There aren't any obstacles in the game that demand flying to get past (right?), so maybe you'll be ok here.
Dim Door, Teleport, and the oodles of other similar conjuration spells aren't going to just sweep all of the PCs to the finish line, though they will keep them alive longer. If all the group does is avoid combat, use scry location or clairaudience/clairvoyance, and teleport to safety then they'll never be strong enough or properly equipped to face the end of each adventure, which is their ultimate goal, right? And since you're being strict on selling the group magic items, they'll have to fight just to get theirs. These spells may allow the PCs to avoid nasty terrain, traps, grapples, TPKs, etc. but that's what they exist for. It might be fun implementing a more severe teleportation error percentage while the group is exploring the IoD though, due to the planar afetrmath that plagues the island. I might even do something like that when my PCs get to the IoD.
I love improved invisibility! Mages need it for some safe blasting, which they honestly deserve after toughing it out through the earlier levels. A good amount of monsters have see invisibility and similar effects as the game continues, so it won't be fail-safe, I assure you!
I urge you to rethink your decision!
I'm going to mirror the sentiments of most everyone else and say leave the spells as they are. You can work around these limitations with other abilities, and honestly the spells mentioned aren't Instant Win buttons.
Fly is useful for sure, but not required. A wise party will just have to pick up some effective ranged firepower if none of them can fly. There aren't any obstacles in the game that demand flying to get past (right?), so maybe you'll be ok here.
Dim Door, Teleport, and the oodles of other similar conjuration spells aren't going to just sweep all of the PCs to the finish line, though they will keep them alive longer. If all the group does is avoid combat, use scry location or clairaudience/clairvoyance, and teleport to safety then they'll never be strong enough or properly equipped to face the end of each adventure, which is their ultimate goal, right? And since you're being strict on selling the group magic items, they'll have to fight just to get theirs. These spells may allow the PCs to avoid nasty terrain, traps, grapples, TPKs, etc. but that's what they exist for. It might be fun implementing a more severe teleportation error percentage while the group is exploring the IoD though, due to the planar afetrmath that plagues the island. I might even do something like that when my PCs get to the IoD.
I love improved invisibility! Mages need it for some safe blasting, which they honestly deserve after toughing it out through the earlier levels. A good amount of monsters have see invisibility, blindsense, blindsight, tremorsense, and similar effects as the game continues, so it won't be fail-safe, I assure you!
I urge you to rethink your decision!
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If your players want these changes then naturally you should do what is fun for you and your group. That said, it isn't a flaw in the adventure design to expect players to have those sorts of abilities, and the abilities themselves are not imbalancing. Just making a blanket statement that tactical movement spells are broken is inaccurate and denying them to players on that basis is unfair and not in the spirit of the game.
Again do what works for your group, but don't get irritated that the game design in the later adventures assumes access to such magic. It is a natural and well thought out premise. Further there is nothing wrong with that. Those spells are very solid options every arcane caster should consider and wanting to use them isn't anymore "broken" than hurling fireballs and lightning bolts.
Déjà vu. I had a similar conversation with Steve offline about this very subject last week. I somewhat support your suggestion of the heavy-handed tactic to eliminate these problematic spells. However, you are probably better served running a different system altogether such as Iron Kingdoms.
The trouble you’ll encounter with changing assumed elements of the “World’s Most Popular Roleplaying Game” is that when playing that system, there is an expectation of what it is – and that would be high fantasy with generous amounts of magic and magic items. Stated differently, the “World’s Most Popular Roleplaying Game” default setting isn’t “gritty”.
Director of Sales
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Speaking of LotR, man, D&D spells would ruin that whole book.
Bilbo: "Hey Gandalf! Check out my ring!"
Gandalf: "Let me see.. hm..." [Identify, Legend Lore.] This is no ordinary ring! It is The One Ring!"
Bilbo: "That's bad, right? How do we destroy it?"
Gandalf: [Divination] "We need to take it Mt. Doom." [Scry] "Looks like the coast is clear." [Teleport, toss].
Bilbo: "Well, I'm glad that's over."
[total unabashed threadjack]
This made me laugh. A lot.
Then I had to read it to Corey and the warehouse guys and they laughed, too.
Well done!
[/total unabashed threadjack]
The trouble you’ll encounter with changing assumed elements of the “World’s Most Popular Roleplaying Game” is that when playing that system, there is an expectation of what it is – and that would be high fantasy with generous amounts of magic and magic items. Stated differently, the “World’s Most Popular Roleplaying Game” default setting isn’t “gritty”.
Well, again: we've all agreed as a group that those spells spoil the "alone in the wilderness" point of this AP, and the spells have been gone since before dice were rolled for character creation. It's as if the PHB just doesn't have them in the spell list. I'm aware that D&D's default isn't gritty; that's why we're deliberately changing it. :)
Honestly, I'm a little shocked by the passion in some of the responses. If Fly, Teleport, and Improved Invis are so integral to the play experience--if it's impossible to consider that a high level wizard could choose to not pick Fly for his known spell list--then they shouldn't be spells at all. Wizards should just get those abilities at the appropriate level.
But I digress. We had a couple new players in last night's game and they expressed shock at the change. But then, upon reflection, they agreed it fits this particular campaign. Much (all?) of the thrill of being in the middle of the ocean, on the Isle of effing-Dread, is that you're cut off from safety. You're cut off from authority. You've only got yourself, and your companions. You can't just snap your fingers (or snap your fingers twice; whatever) and be home in luxury and comfort.
For example: (SPOILER ALERT), one of the party members failed his save vs. mummy rot in Tamoachan. No big deal, right? Wrong. They were a month out from Sasserine, with no cleric. They'd bought some scrolls for emergencies, including Remove Disease, but hadn't thought to buy Remove Curse. It was a real joy (for everyone) as the realization sank in that they couldn't just stroll on down to the village cleric and toss him a sack of gold.
So when they got back to the boats, Lavinia told them that the next stop was a large fort full of priests and monks--all he had to do was survive 14 more days. Two weeks with mummy rot! Well, it was shorter than a month back to Fort Blackwell. On they went, the guy kept alive each day by Lesser Restorations from the Jade Raven, Kaskus.
And then they rounded the corner and saw the charred remains of Fort Greenrock... :) Everyone howled, but everyone had a huge smile on their face too. Even farther from civilization now, all hope rested on the tiny village of Rencrue. I had the Nixie separate in a storm and they barely made it to the island. There they had to use the magic dagger from Tamoachan and all of the junk jewelry and other treasure from Purity's Prow to convince the villagers to adopt the afflicted guy into the tribe, and have their witch doctor cast the spell. (I gave them back the massive over-pay later, simply by upping later treasure haul).
Totally awesome. Much better than pulling out a Teleport scroll and bopping back to town. It's just as true now as it'll be at 9th level.
Why not just let them tough it out? If you ban these spells, it may well come down to a tougher party in the long run, one which is of a significantly higher level in the long run. By making them physically trek overland, sail great distances, maybe even build a bridge or two you gain a lot of opportunities. There is not only room but active encouragement to flesh out this campaign. If you're in an exotic location, why not just take advantage of it?
As it stands, Savage Tide is epic in scale and will without fail develope epic heros. Banning teleport and such will foster epic deeds. If a journey is arduous, taking months, then these are months that the epic heros have spent wandering the land, taking in the implications of the evil they are fighting. It's flavor. The gravity of their struggle become more apparent, more real. You'll wind up with a party that doesn't run across Demogorgan and see a chart of hit points, base attack and treasure tables, but an Evil, an ultimate encounter, something that they will feel proud to have had characters that suceeded or died trying.
I say make them work for it.
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For example: (SPOILER ALERT), one of the party members failed his save vs. mummy rot in Tamoachan. No big deal, right? Wrong. They were a month out from Sasserine, with no cleric. They'd bought some scrolls for emergencies, including Remove Disease, but hadn't thought to buy Remove Curse. It was a real joy (for everyone) as the realization sank in that they couldn't just stroll on down to the village cleric and toss him a sack of...
Well, your OP put up the question "will my party be irreparably crippled by this ( unanimous ) change ?"
The answer to this is - "yes it will make things MUCH harder". And, given that you are only banning the conjuration (teleport) + fly + greater invis spells atm, you will face the same envisioned problems from other spells later on, unless your players stick to their horses and duke it out according "to the spirit of that agreement, not the exact clauses".
I have the strong gut-feeling that their attitude will change rapidly once they start loosing beloved characters, or being severely crippled in their character development because certain resources are non-existant (say, is there any pre-allocated set of magical heavy armour in the entire STAP prior to SoS ? Or a magical chain or pole-arm ? An item to turn unarmed attacks into magical strikes, say vs. incorporeal creatures ?....).
It is - im my experience - much easier to sign away privileges you are not enjoying yet.
Btw, a character selects flying magics if they fit into his or her character concept - at least around here. There are several styles possible - and you banned only one of these. "Dimension Leap/Hop/Door" is an evolutionary trait in playing an arcane caster.... those that have it live to share their experience and propagate. Those that don't.... simply get mentioned in mournful bardsongs...
"Teleport" ? Well, it usually (if the limit on person's transported even suffices ) saves the less than interesting "way back to civilisation" of an adventure. After all, one can only teleport to a location one has been to, or knows very well. And how to scry a location to teleport there escapes me - "Scrying" and "Greater Scrying" require a known person to be scried on.... "Clairvoyance" has a limited, tactical range...
Why not just let them tough it out? If you ban these spells, it may well come down to a tougher party in the long run, one which is of a significantly higher level in the long run. By making them physically trek overland, sail great distances, maybe even build a bridge or two you gain a lot of opportunities. There is not only room but active encouragement to flesh out this campaign. If you're in an exotic location, why not just take advantage of it?
As it stands, Savage Tide is epic in scale and will without fail develope epic heros. Banning teleport and such will foster epic deeds. If a journey is arduous, taking months, then these are months that the epic heros have spent wandering the land, taking in the implications of the evil they are fighting. It's flavor. The gravity of their struggle become more apparent, more real. You'll wind up with a party that doesn't run across Demogorgan and see a chart of hit points, base attack and treasure tables, but an Evil, an ultimate encounter, something that they will feel proud to have had characters that suceeded or died trying.
I say make them work for it.
(short thread hijack )
@bluewizardAs for the "role-playing = gritty comment".... sorry , that is just a hilarious PoV, very reminiscent of Victorian/Edwardian age british arctic explorers, who rather died in an amateurish way, than use expert advice which was considered "out of the british character". Embracing hundreds of pointless dead because something was "unsporting" is... dumb ?. Besides that, it is (IMHO) sadly mistaken in its scope and view of things.
I do run and participate pretty gritty and deadly campaigns (noone ever goes around here without a solid profession or craft skills ), and still allow access to teleport magics etc. or merchants dealing in magical stuff (usually on pre-order, and with a limited selection, they are not a brand-outlet or department-store - the PCs tell him what they need/look for, hand he tries to find some for them. And vice versa - the PCs usually get some requests from the merchants that if they "come across this" he would be interested....). "Grit" is not exclusive to giving the players capable tools. Grit is a feature, a flavour. If you use too much of or rely exclusively onit, the whole recipe is ruined by its domination.
The question is not "the concept", the question im my experience is "how to play it". And that is a question of a given GM's skill, imagination and planning. Magic is a tool, not a fails-save.
...looking at the STAP, I doubt that someone will even be lucky enough to get a first-hand glance a Demogorgon in #150 (to savour the experience ) without magic customization , flight capability etc. unless the GM cuts them a lot (!) of slack... Epic opponents require epic characters, epic deeds and epic tools to accomplish - and even then, it comes down to player's smarts. And definitely not whether they saw a fellow comrade die because of inadequate planning and a "drill sergeant"-GM
Couple thoughts came to mind as I read through this thread. First, you might want to read parts of the Complete Arcane, which does a good job discussing the issues with certain types of magic: charms (I noticed their absence on the banning list), flight, invisibility, and teleport. Second, I note you considered granting a few limited-use magic items like a carpet of flying. If those spells are not on someone's class's spell list, then how were they made?
I understand the desire to play a grittier game. But if you can have fights that get your players to chew their nails down to the bone by the second round just due to your own skills, then allowing flight, greater invis, and the teleport spells won't hurt things.
I agree with the idea of avoiding the problem of "magic Walmart". Not something you want for a gritty campaign. Will the spellcasters have time to enchant a few items of their own or for the party? If so, they can still turn everything into a cake-walk. They'll fight their way through all those encounters plus maybe a few random encounters, pick up lots of XP, then enchant things if they get the chance. Our group certainly would, maybe yours is different.
Somewhat abashed threadjack, ver.2
I couldn't help myself
http://www.howitshouldhaveended.com/Divx%20links/LOTR.html
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The thing I find annoying about this thread is the OP's generalization that using these spells somehow makes the game cheesy and that those who use them in their games aren't playing with "grit". I call BS on that. Being able to fly or teleport over short ranges is no more "cheesy" than being able to blast an enemy with fire or travel to another plane of existence to battle the prince of demons. If the fantastic elements of D&D bother you that much why not ban all spellcasting and magic. You could call the game "some guys in a field beating each other with sticks" and get all the grit in the world that you want.
If you think Fly or Dimension door are broken, then you probably think resurrection shouldn't be allowed or that energy immunity when fighting a dragon makes the characters cheesy for casting spells to help survive. Why not take away the Druid's shape changing? Why arbitrarily pick those 4 spells and why only from the sorcerer wizard list? Why not take away the best spells for every spellcasting class. Take Summon Nature's Ally from the Druid and healing from the cleric. Isn't it broken that your group doesn't have to rest up in a sick bed for 3 months after a battle like real people? Is it fair that only the druid can fly now since they have the ability to shapechange naturally when the Wizard/Sorcerer doesn't?
That's what makes the whole discussion so absurd. It's like banning these four spells will make the game SOOOO much better than it was with them. It's like saying "Wow if WotC would just eliminate those 4 spells then there wouldn't be any power gaming or twinking anymore." Why not start an email campaign to get them to do just that? Better yet, why not just randomly roll dice to see which class features and spells all of your players will be denied access to. That way everyone is discriminated against equally.
The thing I find distressing about this thread is the OP's generalization that using these spells somehow makes the game cheesy and that those who use them in their games aren't playing with "grit".
Brent, I believe the first sentence from the thread's starter mentioned "a little grittier." It's quite the leap from there to the sweeping, blanket accusation you conceptualize.
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I don't think taking away the arcane caster's tactical options makes the game a "tad bit grittier". It reeks of the sort of thing where a DM gets it into their heads that a player can't make a powerful character and at the same time role-play the scary aspects of being desparately trapped in the wild. I find that notion to be the same sort of rationalization that some DM's use to complain that the game isn't fun because it isn't more of a meat grinding blood bath, because players have easier access to magic than they did in 1st edition. I played 1st edition D&D in the heady days when finding a +1 sword was a major accomplishment and Wizards had to wait for their DM to give them spells via spellbooks or scrolls because the game had no mechanism for them to learn them regularly on their own.
The ability for a grappled wizard to free himself from the maw of an enraged Tyrannosaurus a couple of times a day is not broken. The ability to make oneself invisible for a few minutes to scout out an enemy camp or throw a fireball without advertising to the world that you are a soft mushy wizard waiting to be crushed to paste isn't broken either. The decision to take those spells away is arbitrary and shouts out that the game can't handle spells like that unless they are at the highest levels or banned altogether. In a world where Dragons exist and Demonic and Diabolic forces are a very real threat, how is the ability to cast a spell to get you home when trapped in the middle of the Dark Forest of Death and Doom unbalancing?
I had a DM once that took this very stance on these sorts of spells, but had no problem with the Cleric Air Walking or me (I was playing a Druid) turning into a hawk to do the same. It was an unecessary punishment for the arcane caster of our group. Initially he also agreed with our DM on the issue though several of the players including myself disagreed. Early on it wasn't a big deal when we faced things like Goblins or a Displacer Beast. Later though when we had to deal with more complex adversaries, like Dragons, or Demons that could fly and teleport themselves, our party's wizard died about 3 times as often as anyone else in the group in a game where we were playing through a remake of one of the classic meatgrinder dungeons (Maure Castle), largely because the Wizard didn't have the same tactical options as the other casters because the DM had banned certain spells.
That was unnecessary and ended up with the player leaving D&D for good. Was it worth it to make the game "grittier" at the expense of the arcane caster? If the Wizard/Sorcerer has to make that sacrifice, what sacrifices are the other characters making? That is why it is unfair. If you are going to take those 4 spells from the Wizard, then you have to take all similar magic from all classes equally across the board. Otherwise you are setting up a situation that will cause resentment later on. I would love to hear about how the groups Druid would feel if he was told he couldn't shape shift into forms that can fly. Or if the party's cleric is told they can't Air Walk or Plane Shift. I would also love to hear how the party is even supposed to get to the wells of darkness since the Wake Portal can't take them there in the 10th adventure if all teleporting and plane transporting magic is denied to them later on. Or how they are going to survive the 3 flying Vrocks at the end of Tides of Dread and their Dance of Ruin if noone can get into the air to stop them while fighting Vanthus.
It is all cool in the beginning until the arcane caster realizes their character is less effective than it should be compared to his teammates and realizes that he/she is the only one who had spells removed from their list when other party members can do the same thing through other methods. All a Wizard has is his spells. Take those away and what is he supposed to do? He can't shapeshift. He doesn't have other class features to keep him alive. He can't wear armor. His poor base attack and saving throws mean he likely has no hope of surviving in a grapple. What's more, the DM will know the character doesn't have those options so when they face the Lemorian Golem in HTBM, I'm sure the arcane caster will be the first one grappled by the golem because he has no way of getting away or fighting back and will be crushed to rotted paste within a few rounds.
Lastly, again do what works for your party, but realize there may be quite a bit of resentment from your players and the perception of bias against specific players once it sinks in that everyone has their full gambit of abilities except the arcane caster who has had most of his low and mid level tactical option spells taken away before the game ever even started.
Thanks Greg. Well, that's the thing. What if the mass market player didn't happen to choose those spells? Wouldn't it be better to include multiple solutions to encounters?
I guess you run into the issue of potential wasted effort on the writer's part. I mean, if the writer writes a cool encounter on a thin bridge in an ancient dwarven mine, and the players just say "er, no big deal: we cast Fly and go over it", then that's not very fun. :)
Speaking of LotR, man, D&D spells would ruin that whole book.
Bilbo: "Hey Gandalf! Check out my ring!"
Gandalf: "Let me see.. hm..." [Identify, Legend Lore.] This is no ordinary ring! It is The One Ring!"
Bilbo: "That's bad, right? How do we destroy it?"
Gandalf: [Divination] "We need to take it Mt. Doom." [Scry] "Looks like the coast is clear." [Teleport, toss].
Bilbo: "Well, I'm glad that's over."
Not nearly as much as if the remembered the eagles, and flew the damn thing to the mountain. The books could have been a short story.
I agree with the other posters that there are better ways of dealing with these spells than outright banning them. As the hamster says above, taking away Fly is a massive handicap against flying foes - I've had party members die in otherwise equal or even easy encounters because they couldn't get airborne. And what it so bad about Greater Invisibility - there are several ways of dealing with this, as pointed out on these boards.
While I know this is a consensual agreement between players and DM, taking this approach on a published module designed with these approaches in mind could go very badly. There's gritty, and then there is simply unfair.
And there are ALOT of flying foes, especially when you get to the abyss. I think this ban could lead you to a TPK unless your PC find a way to compensate.
I wholeheartedly agree that you should ban these spells at lower levels. It is true that there is too much that is possible with the magic in the game. Limits and boundaries like these go a long way to invigorate and heighten the realism in the game.
About flying monsters. Swap the fly spell for a spell called ground, which strips opponents of the ability to fly unless they make a will save. That way, instead of wasting four third levels spells getting the party airborne as an equaliser, you can balance things that way instead.
To avoid the inequity of creatures like the Bar-Igura teleporting into a party that lack the same flexibility, It made sense in my game that dimensional anchor could be cast permanently as a fifth level divine spell. The treasury of the lotus dragons had a flagstone that had such a spell, as a precaution. The party chiselled the stone out of the floor. Presto, the fighter is able to actually hit the monsters.
Greater invisibility, however is only game busting if you let it be. I allow listen checks to halve the penalty. I also make invisibility awkward for the rest of the party by having the player indicate his location to me only, so there is always a possibility that another player will collide with or strike him. Area effect spells become risky in such a situation.
I personally make teleport hard to obtain. It works for me.
Sorry to ramble, but I say go for it.
There is a reason that Superman bores me to tears, but daredevil is compelling. That runaway train scares me far more than any horror movie. The limits make the action.
About flying monsters. Swap the fly spell for a spell called ground, which strips opponents of the ability to fly unless they make a will save. That way, instead of wasting four third levels spells getting the party airborne as an equaliser, you can balance things that way instead.
I believe there is a spell in the compendium that does exactly that called Earthbinding or something like that. I think it's 2nd level.
Brent, I would QFT your previous post, but it won't all fit ;) That was amazingly well put and hits the problem right on the head. Where's the equality, man?!
One thing I'd like to point out to those that think that teleport ruins "grit" in a game, check it's range.
This spell instantly transports you to a designated destination, which may be as distant as 100 miles per caster level. Interplanar travel is not possible. You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent (see below) per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you. As with all spells where the range is personal and the target is you, you need not make a saving throw, nor is spell resistance applicable to you. Only objects held or in use (attended) by another person receive saving throws and spell resistance.You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination. The clearer your mental image, the more likely the teleportation works. Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible.
If you'll check the map in "Sea Wyvern's Wake", you'll notice that the group is several thousand miles from Sasserine or other KNOWN civilized lands by the time they reach Renkrue. Most places where they could purchase gear, get companions raised, etc., are beyond their reach without several castings. Then you have the inherent bug with the spell.
To see how well the teleportation works, roll d% and consult the Teleport table. Refer to the following information for definitions of the terms on the table.Familiarity
“Very familiar” is a place where you have been very often and where you feel at home. “Studied carefully” is a place you know well, either because you can currently see it, you’ve been there often, or you have used other means (such as scrying) to study the place for at least one hour. “Seen casually” is a place that you have seen more than once but with which you are not very familiar. “Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic.“False destination” is a place that does not truly exist or if you are teleporting to an otherwise familiar location that no longer exists as such or has been so completely altered as to no longer be familiar to you. When traveling to a false destination, roll 1d20+80 to obtain results on the table, rather than rolling d%, since there is no real destination for you to hope to arrive at or even be off target from.
On Target
You appear where you want to be.Off Target
You appear safely a random distance away from the destination in a random direction. Distance off target is 1d10×1d10% of the distance that was to be traveled. The direction off target is determined randomlySimilar Area
You wind up in an area that’s visually or thematically similar to the target area.Generally, you appear in the closest similar place within range. If no such area exists within the spell’s range, the spell simply fails instead.
Mishap
You and anyone else teleporting with you have gotten “scrambled.” You each take 1d10 points of damage, and you reroll on the chart to see where you wind up. For these rerolls, roll 1d20+80. Each time “Mishap” comes up, the characters take more damage and must reroll.
I can't tell you how many times I've had my players use this spell and arrive off target and not know where the hell they were. Just getting their bearings was an adventure in and of itself. If they had another teleport spell immediately available, they could simply try again, assuming there wasn't something there that they ended up having to fight or flee from OR if they didn't up dunked in the ocean and sinking to the bottom with all of the weight of their gear (a likely result in STAP).
Now, let's say you want to make it just a little more difficult to be completely accurate, just adjust the percantages to allow for a greater possibility of error if the PC doesn't know EXACTLY where he's going, and even then you could impose a Concentration check for him/her to evoke the exact mental image needed to get to that location.Now, to dimension door, well I don't think I can put it any better than Brent and others have. It's by no means going to get your players from the Isle of Dread to Farshore, but it may just get them out of a pit they've fallen into with no hope of climbing out or get the spellcaster out of a nasty grapple or other realistically deadly situation. Taking it away is like declawing a cat. Ever seen a declawed cat try to climb up a tree to get to safety when being chased by a dog or something that means to kill it?
Improved invisibility is a nice little spell to have to protect the wizard/sorcerer from nasty reprisals as he's supporting the rest of the party with his offensive spells. It's so easy to get around with critters that have true seeing, blindsight, scent, and various others. Why not let your casters enjoy being able to use it when they can get away with it, honestly?
That's all I've got. Not sure any of this is swaying the OP or not, but thought I'd try again anyway.
::shrug::
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First of all, the DM isn't removing those spells because he feels they are cheesy, his ENTIRE GROUP is welcoming the change.
The designers of version 3.0-3.5 had one mantra: Options. In the spirit of Options, they are experimenting with the RAW to come up with something THEY prefer. This isn't about "Do you like it?" this is about "What sort of pitfalls should we watch out for in this AP?"
Flying mobs? No problem, a decent archer and a wizard with lightning bolt, fireball, magic missile, or any number of other options can drop them.
Grappled Wizard? Please! I've played a wizard, I've kept Dimension door studied, but sometimes you've used it and THEN get grappled!
Would I DM this AP without the aforementioned spells? No, because I don't want to work any harder, and my players wouldn't find that fun. But if the DM is willing to work a little harder, and the players are down with it, why don't we try and be constructive?
Rather than tell the DM "don't do it" for something they have already done, lets offer him some pointers on how to overcome the challenges they will face in later chapters of STAP given his parameters.
The OP was asking if it would cripple the players later on in the game if he took the spells out. Looking at the posts it looks like there is a fair split with maybe a couple more on the side of yes it would cripple them. IMHO it's probably more work to adjust the later levels to make it not crippling then to adjust the spells slightly to make them "grittier".
As far as the though of it crippling one class vs the other, which I agree with, really isn't what he was asking. They have all agreed to the decision so you kinda have to go from there. It's really about how much adjustment he will have to make in the later adventures, which I think is a lot. To me it looks like they designed the adventure with those spells in mind. Which means they instill the "I'm in the middle of no where" or "I'm trapped in the Ilse of Dread" before those spells become avaliable or feasable. The mood of the AP changes after that point so for me it's not an issue. You end up delving into the history of the island and the dark forces behind it at that point which those spells really aren't changing that aspect. For me by the time those spells become useful, you're pretty much past the trapped island feel.
Also as many have pointed out Teleport is dangerous. To sight your previous example:
Bilbo: "Hey Gandalf! Check out my ring!"
Gandalf: "Let me see.. hm..." [Identify, Legend Lore.] This is no ordinary ring! It is The One Ring!"
Bilbo: "That's bad, right? How do we destroy it?"
Gandalf: [Divination] "We need to take it Mt. Doom." [Scry] "Looks like the coast is clear." [Teleport].
Bilbo: "Gandalf, why are we in the middle of a 1,000 orcs?"
Gandalf: "uh, I must have missed with my spell."
The end of our heroes and the end of our story.
Wingbind, but it's 4th level.
I remember that one too, but I really thought there was another on with Earth in it's name that was a lower level.
First of all, the DM isn't removing those spells because he feels they are cheesy, his ENTIRE GROUP is welcoming the change.
You know what I get the impression of, Stedd? I get the impression the DM wanted to make these changes, ran it by the group, probably had to do a lot of convincing, and in the end the players agreed to it, and have decided to make the best of it. I've seen it way too many times to not sense that this is probably the case. When he mentioned that two new players joined and were against it, but decided to go with it, well, that only confirms it to me. It's real easy at the beginning of a campaign to give up crap that you won't even need to worry about having for at least 7 levels. Some of these players may be used to having campaigns that their characters only make it to 5th!
I can almost gaurantee that if you cornered each of these players alone and asked them how they really felt about the DM's house rule about these spells, they'd be telling a completely different story than what the OP suggests. I would love to be a fly on the wall when the first instance comes up of the group getting royally screwed because the perfect spell that would have changed the outcome of an encounter wasn't available to them because the DM thought it would be cooler to get rid of it from the game and they all blithely agreed.
Now, I can understand and relate to the OP's problem with these spells. Sometimes, they can ruin the perfect, killer encounter that the DM had prepared. Yeah, that sucks. But that's the game, my friend. You can never gauge player ingenuity. All you can do is roll with it and improvise if necessary. That's the pay off for the players when they really use their resources and noggins. You shouldn't punish them for it. That's what I see happening here. The DM has had problems with these spells disrupting his "well laid plans" and doesn't want the same thing to happen in this campaign. And you know what? Whatever. That's his choice. Good for him. But, it shows me that he isn't that great of a DM when he has to compensate for his inability to adjust the game on the fly or come up with things that take spells like these in to account by simply removing the things that have spoiled his game in the past. A good DM wouldn't do that. A good DM would figure out ways to use those kind of spells to his advantage and to make the game rewarding to his players and useful.
Hmmm... "There's no way out of this dungeon now that the entrance is caved in. But, hey, it's a good thing the wizard recently learned that teleport spell. All hail the wizard for having the power to save us from sure stavation and dehydration! Huzzah! Huzzah!" Guess what? The wizard gets to be a star.
There's just no way of gauging exactly what innovative players can use those 4 spells for. I just can't disagree more with the OP (AND his group for agreeing with him) for his decision and rationaliziation. There's way too many other ways to make the game a bit grittier without throwing out ultra useful spells, and ONLY from the arcane casters' spell selection.
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First let me say QFT to Steve as well!!! He expands on exactly what I am saying and adds very good points of his own. This really does stink of a DM who is upset some players "messed up his beautiful encounter" with these spells in the past so he decided to ban them instead of plan for them. That really isn't fun for the players. They all agreed, but that doesn't mean everyone liked it, and I also would love to be a fly on the wall the first time somone dies when a spell like this would have saved them. All that said...
I have gone back through and looked again at the entire AP from There is No Honor all the way through Tides of Dread this morning, and what you are doing will likely amount to character death if not outright TPK in several places. If you insist on going with it, then you should at least be aware of the problem areas. In the spirit of trying to help with that, here are just the obvious ones off the top of my head that lack of access to the specific spells you list are potentially lethal...
There is No Honor: No real problem areas as long as everyone plays smart
Bullywug's Gambit: Again no real problems
Sea Wyvern's Wake: Sutolore might be challenging if he stays in the air and breath weapons everyone to death. Navigating the Sargasso will be tough if noone can get airborne to scout. Additionally, the Mother of All battle could rapidly devolve into a TPK if the casters are all grappled by assasin vines or vine horrors while still dealing with the Mother's other abilities. The fly spell is a big help in the Mother of All fight to let a caster get above the range of the vine grapple abilities and away from the Mother's Babbling ability.
Here There Be Monsters: Olangru and his mates are downright unfair if you can't do something to improve your tactical mobility against their superior spead, pounce and skirmish damage combos, and at will teleports with abduction. In the temple, the Lemorian Golem is probably instant death to an arcane caster without dimension door because of it's high grapple, automatic constrict and constitution damaging attacks coupled with the arcane caster's low grapple, hp, and fort saves.
Tides of Dread: The legendary Tyrannosaurus could really put a hurting on a grappled caster as could the emerald anaconda outside the temple. The inability to get out to the Crimson Fleet ships quickly in the attack on farshore could be problematic. That is especially true is someone can't dimension door or fly out to the ship that has V'Sesslin on board. He can literally decimate the entire town with enlarged fireballs and if you don't have a way to check from ship to ship quickly it may be impossible to find the point of origin of all those enlarged fireballs. That almost insures Farshore is reduced to cinders. Assuming you allow them to pinpoint the Yuan-ti's ship without getting to them to search, then that should be ok, but the biggest problem in this adventure is the fight with Vanthus. He and his 3 Vrock bodyguards can all fly. So the Vrocks can just get out of the party's range and do a dance of ruin till everyone is dead. Trying to stop the dance without anyone in the air is suicide. If the casters just try to blast away at the Vrocks without invisibility, then Vanthus will simply attack them to prevent that. If they can't dimension door to a range where Vanthus can't disrupt them with a single move and charge, then they are going to have a hard time bringing down even one Vrock in 3 rounds. No archer at 12th level can make up for the crippled caster enough to compensate. This could easily be a TPK within only 3 rounds and Farshore will fall.
These are just the first 5 or so adventures, so I haven't even got to later adventures where things get genuinely difficult and found at least 6 or 7 instances that could be quite lethal without access to this sort of magic. Every party is different, but even if the rest of the party can handle it while their arcane caster hides in the rear, how is that fair or fun for the caster? These are just quick obvious examples. A careful examination would undoubtedly find more. Keep it in mind when characters start to die and know that access to one spell on that list would have let their character survive, that they will have a justifiable reason to be angry. Noone likes to lose a character, but losing one when you agreed to ban some spells before you realized how useful they would be is enough to make the average player get mad enough to find a new group to play with. Beyond that I can only reitirate what Steve has said and say I couldn't agree more!!
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Speaking of LotR, man, D&D spells would ruin that whole book.
Bilbo: "Hey Gandalf! Check out my ring!"
Gandalf: "Let me see.. hm..." [Identify, Legend Lore.] This is no ordinary ring! It is The One Ring!"
Bilbo: "That's bad, right? How do we destroy it?"
Gandalf: [Divination] "We need to take it Mt. Doom." [Scry] "Looks like the coast is clear." [Teleport, toss].
Bilbo: "Well, I'm glad that's over."[total unabashed threadjack]
This made me laugh. A lot.
Then I had to read it to Corey and the warehouse guys and they laughed, too.
Well done!
[/total unabashed threadjack]
Hey! How'd you do that? I clicked the link and got to the CoreyYoung page, which was neat. BUT, I then deleted the CoreyYoung figuring I would see the People page (which I never even knew existed before!) but it didn't work. Where is the main People page?
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i agree with Brent, especially in regards to the defense of Farshore.
without an ability to tangle w/ the Vrocks hand to hand, there's really no chance of disrupting their dance of ruin. In our party, the ranger/pyrokineticist was able to take a few fireballs for the rest of the town, preventing the Yuan-Ti from just burning the place down, and was then able to tie up Vanthus a bit.
the warmage pot-shotted one of the Vrocks with a sudden-empowered orb of force, and managed to take him out 2 rounds into the dance, but otherwise the party would have been very very sad.
with all the multiple-angle-attacks in this adventure (Bar-Lgura's and Defending Farshore stand out in my mind in particular), the party will either have to split up (weakening themselves to the point where they can probably be overrun), or simply accept that some of the encounters will be unwinnable.
if that's acceptable, then fine, keep them as is, but bear in mind that Farshore will be more important than a simple waypoint on the adventure.
-the hamster
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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With only Average flight, I don't think vrocks can join hands and dance in a circle while flying - they can't hover. Always had the impression that the dance of ruin was incompatible with movement other than the dance, as in they need to take 3 full-round actions to complete it.
I think I still stand by my recommendation of playing Iron Heroes (I think I erroneously called it Iron Kingdoms earlier) in lieu of the standard rule set, if thats the feel you want to achieve with the game.
I think drawing the line on what spells should and should not be allowed is a slippery slope; where do you draw the line?
Nobody mentioned Wind Walk - the divine spell that allows an entire party to fly long distances by becoming cloud-like. What about a persistant Air Walk or Fly spell? How about two Plane Shifts (less efficient and less exact, but still "gits 'er dun")?