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Sebastian, you kill me. I have to say I am laughing my ass off. You are very witty.
So ass is ok? What if I decided to throw a hissy over your use of that offensive language on a public domain where lots of teens and youths post to try to explore their hobby. For shame, sir. You have proven to be a hypocrite. I guess the only measure of what is offensive for our entire world is your narrow-minded, selectively thin-skinned view of what you determine to be offensive at the time. Great.
Hope you aren't raising kids. They will surely turn out just peachy.FH
Now i got that song in my head...thanks alot! It will probably take me most of the rest of the day to get it out.
What, Thoth? You got something against Randy Newman? I'm offended by that!
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...Andrew, your justification for using offensive language must be that it is OK to use offensive language to label any individual, but if the context is a group of individuals and is obviously so, it is offensive...
Tim, I really don’t understand what you mean. Offensive language as you derive it with your two examples
“…OK to use offensive language to label any individual…”
And
“…if the context is a group of individuals and is obviously so, it is offensive…”
Is not at all what I wrote earlier. What I wrote earlier was:
“One thing does not lead to another---Imus does not work at Paizo, and I fail to see the logical connection between the use of a common expletive and felonious and racially prejudiced comments. It is rationally irresponsible and inflammatory to make such poor comparisons, and insulting to intimate that such a comparison is legitimate.
If you're offended by the use of profanity, that's one thing, but implying that racism stems from the use of the word 'shit' simply makes no sense. If I'm wrong, please defend your comments.”
I specifically point out the salient:
“If you're offended by the use of profanity, that's one thing, but implying that racism stems from the use of the word 'shit' simply makes no sense.”
Which summates my point: whatever semantic connotation you choose to apply to a common, racially non-associative expletive (‘shit’) cannot logically or by way of common social use extend to a racially associative word or phrase.
Said another way:
My writing ‘shit’ four times in this post does not in any way connect me to or imply an association with or an inclination toward racism or the future use of racist words or an expression of racist ideology.
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Sebastian, you kill me. I have to say I am laughing my ass off. You are very witty.So ass is ok? What if I decided to throw a hissy over your use of that offensive language on a public domain where lots of teens and youths post to try to explore their hobby. For shame, sir. You have proven to be a hypocrite. I guess the only measure of what is offensive for our entire world is your narrow-minded, selectively thin-skinned view of what you determine to be offensive at the time. Great.
Hope you aren't raising kids. They will surely turn out just peachy.FH
Well said!
I'd probably be offended by this guys attitude if this thread wasnt so freakin funny!
I am shocked - shocked! - that Godwin's Law has not yet been invoked in this thread.
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Obviously, you are suffering from a serious case of offensensitivity.Well, i am offended that you're offended! What do you got to say about that???
Thoth-Amon
Perhaps. My work offers 3 free therapy sessions a year. I'll look into setting up the appointments. <head down, looking towards the ground, & kicking pebbles>
Thoth-Amon
Pathfinder will not include any fiction to speak of, so it will not include s*%%-covered goblins or, for that matter, s*%%-covered anything.
Thank you for clarifying Paizo Publishing's position. For myself, I prefer descriptions and dialogue using creative language rather than profanity, and I am glad you are continuing this with Pathfinder and GameMastery Modules.
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...no matter how well you try to censor yourself, you're gonna screw up. We then had the whole explanation where I had to apologize to him for my language and explain that certain things weren't appropriate to say. If you haven't had that conversation with your kid by the age of 11 something's wrong.
Geez, did you make it until he was 11 before you had that conversation?! I'm a bad dad. :(
I would be surprised to see that word printed in Dragon (or any mainstream gaming product), but the explanation that it's an exception for fiction makes sense to me, so that's cool.
I agree with Whimsy Chris that the way women are sometimes portrayed in gaming products is more of an issue. As a father of two girls, including a six-year-old who has made her first D&D character and is ready to start on her first adventure :) , it bothers me that I can't let my daughter have free rein to peruse my gaming material without running into ridiculously unrealistic and titillating images of women (a la the full plate bikini). Now, I'm no saint, and I enjoy such artwork myself, but women can be depicted as feminine, beautiful, self-confident, even scantily-clad to some extent if it makes sense, without the images being demeaning or raising questions in the mind of a young girl about what society values in women. However, the line separating those is very subjective.
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I am shocked - shocked! - that Godwin's Law has not yet been invoked in this thread.
Well, I would've, but considering the topic, I thought it best to avoid offending someone by calling them a Nazi.
--Oh, damn!
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Hi all,
I'm Paul S. Kemp, author of "Confession." A poster to my blog pointed me to this thread.
I don't have a lot to add but let me articulate my thinking: One of the primary functions of the first sentence in a piece of short fiction is to grab the reader and set the tone for the story. In this case, the mild expletive did that work (at least as far as I'm concerned). Sure, I could have written, "I sloshed through excrement/sewage/feces/take your pick, up to my ankles" but that, IMO, would not have had the same impact. It has nothing whatever to do with an attempt to shock for its own sake or a lack of a thesaurus.
That some readers dislike and/or are offended by the word choice is unfortunate, but it's also just one of the things you deal with as a writer (and an editor). My writing in general, and this story in particular, is not for everyone. I can live with that.
Keep up the good work Mr. Kemp. Many of us enjoy your work.
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I am shocked - shocked! - that Godwin's Law has not yet been invoked in this thread.
When My mommy asks me what I learned in school today, I'll tell her about Godwin's Law.
I am shocked - shocked! - that Godwin's Law has not yet been invoked in this thread.
SHUT IT, YOU NAZI!
One, a single relatively tame swear word does not suggest that the magazine will include nipples and boobs.
And that's where ya lost me!
You wanna learn something about increasing sales? Watch me now:
Pathfinder: We've got nipples and boobs.
I haven't read the story, but if I'm infering correctly from this thread, the word in question was used to describe what the word literally refers to? So it would have been OK describe it using a word from Latin or Dutch, but because the author used a word with an Anglo-Saxon root, that made it offensive?
Piece of advice: You have to choose to be offended. People will do things knowing other people will choose to be offended by it, but the choise to be offended is always on the "victim". Best thing I ever did was choose to never be offended by anything. Never take anything personally, especially things that are meant personally.
Now, if you can show how the author's use of the word 'shit' hurt you in some way, you'd have cause for complaint.
I am shocked - shocked! - that Godwin's Law has not yet been invoked in this thread.
Well, I kind of figured that everyone already knew the OP is really Hitler.
One, a single relatively tame swear word does not suggest that the magazine will include nipples and boobs.And that's where ya lost me!
You wanna learn something about increasing sales? Watch me now:
Pathfinder: We've got nipples and boobs.
Seriously, or better yet boobs with nipples!
Seriously, or better yet boobs with nipples!
New and improved boobs... now with nipples!
If I did have a spouse and kids though, let me assure you, I would strictly monitor everything they ever listened to, read, or watched. No risque mermaids in Peter Pan, no killing of imaginary creatures in D&D, and, god forbid, if a J.C. Penny catalogue should ever arrive on my doorstep with its filthy lingerie section...well...let's just say that I would write a very nasty letter to them.
I used to work for a newspaper that used to get complaints about the J.C. Penney lingerie ads. No kidding. The complaints were usually followed with:
"We can't let our children see that sort of thing ... they might get ideas."
Piece of advice: You have to choose to be offended. People will do things knowing other people will choose to be offended by it, but the choise to be offended is always on the "victim". Best thing I ever did was choose to never be offended by anything. Never take anything personally, especially things that are meant personally.
I believe the rhyme goes ...
"Sticks and stones will break my bones ... but names will never hurt me."
Like what, wearing underwear?
One never knows ... :D
If you don't like encountering the word s*** then thank your lucky stars you don't live in Australia - we're allowed to use it on free to air TV in prime time. I've seen episodes of the reality show The Biggest Loser (which is on at 7:00pm and is family viewing) where the contestants say (uncensored) "when I saw the task this week I was s***ting myself or "it made me feel like s**t."
The opening post amuses me the same way it does when I see an American star on an Australian chat show who is amazed that he is allowed to say "ass" at 9:30 at night. So not only are these things relative between people, they are also culturally relative.
Needless to say I can handle a little bit of s**t in my Dungeons. You should hear my players...
Buy three get one half off!
That is a bargain but I don't know what I'd do with an extra set. I could I could have the world's COOLEST SFX CONTACT LENSES! (hard to blink in them suckers when I'm excited though)
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I often forget that the vast majority are men for whom showing sensitivity to women, children, the elderly, and in many cases their peers is not a priority.
I am so glad that such a stalwart, defender of morality such as Tim doesn't use sweeping generalizations about large groups of people to prove his point.
Sadly, he is correct in one instance; I do truly hate the elderly. It is second only to my hatred for elderly woman that I view as my peers. Can't stand 'em.
I've always been more upset that there are fictional short stories in the magazine, when what I want are more game articles. For me it's always been a waste of space (I'm not saying they aren't any good, they are probably great, just that I'd rather have gaming articles).
I've always been more upset that there are fictional short stories in the magazine, when what I want are more game articles. For me it's always been a waste of space (I'm not saying they aren't any good, they are probably great, just that I'd rather have gaming articles).
I can relate, but on the other hand, fantasy short fiction can use all the publishing venues it can get.
Too bad this one's going away.
I am shocked - shocked! - that Godwin's Law has not yet been invoked in this thread.
You have been INVOKED... Seriously, I understand why especially with the O.P. having some... interesting remarks.
Hi all,
I'm Paul S. Kemp, author of "Confession." A poster to my blog pointed me to this thread.
I don't have a lot to add but let me articulate my thinking: One of the primary functions of the first sentence in a piece of short fiction is to grab the reader and set the tone for the story. In this case, the mild expletive did that work (at least as far as I'm concerned). Sure, I could have written, "I sloshed through excrement/sewage/feces/take your pick, up to my ankles" but that, IMO, would not have had the same impact. It has nothing whatever to do with an attempt to shock for its own sake or a lack of a thesaurus.
That some readers dislike and/or are offended by the word choice is unfortunate, but it's also just one of the things you deal with as a writer (and an editor). My writing in general, and this story in particular, is not for everyone. I can live with that.
Paul,
I have enjoyed your work.As someone who went through art schooling, and had work ripped apart because of taking my mother to the E.R. every other night for seizures and not sleeping for 3-4 days at a time to get work done and pouring my soul into it: Ignore the O.P. He was trolling, and, sadly, a few of us fell for it.
Seriously, or better yet boobs with nipples!One, a single relatively tame swear word does not suggest that the magazine will include nipples and boobs.And that's where ya lost me!
You wanna learn something about increasing sales? Watch me now:
Pathfinder: We've got nipples and boobs.
New and improved boobs... now with nipples!
Buy three get one half off!
After that lovely trio of replies, I have one question: How did wolfman here get into my special... Wait, you mean the girls lied to me? I feel so used.
Oh my word, how can you be so bigoted against short people, I am so offendedShort people got no reason to live.
Hey now, I like being short. But then again, all you tall folk don't get to see what I get to see :D
Seriously though, the OP was trolling. I'm sad that so many of us fell for it, and I'm especially sad for Paul. Having to defend yourself against... THAT is just disgusting. As a few have said: there are much more offensive things in D&D than a little shit. Matter of fact, most of the time the PC's have a little shit on 'em (usually dried gnome corpses, but that's a long story).
As to all the women and their rights: yep, you're right. The sad part is that I am a male, and I like to see pictures of attractive women.
One of my favorite pictures is that of Laurana in full battle regalia standing over Sturm's corpse. Hmm, definitely NOT your usual thought.
Oddly there are many FULLY CLOTHED women who are quite lovely in their own rights (I don't particularly care for porn). perhaps I'm an oddity.
You deserve that right to the sexy, too. So, we needs us some male pinups for the ladies, and then some stories objectifying the failings of men, and then kick the men's asses. Does that really help? Prolly not.
Damn.
/d
Doody and Poo is what monkeys throw.
Butt biscuits?
Sewer Pigeons.
To satisfy everyone's sensibilities, anything offensive will now be known simply as
E.G.
I totally baconfish'd that hot piece of baconfish last night. Then I went home and beat the everliving baconfish out of that baconfish who still owed me $15. Then I had the overwhelming urge to drop an enormous baconfish, after which I fell asleep and baconfishing overslept, missing the baconfish bus to my baconfish job, causing my boss to baconfish me out, which is why I'm standing in this baconfish of a line, waiting for my baconfish handout. You got a problem with that, Baconfish?
That is all.
Baconfish!
This thread cracks me up. I really don't have anything to add other than I like Paul Kemp's work and I wasn't offended by the profanity in it.
I am shocked - shocked! - that Godwin's Law has not yet been invoked in this thread.
Thank you James. ;-)
Now I remember where I saw the OP before... he was the one that created and trolled on that thread comparing WOTC to Nazis a few weeks ago... I knew I remembered his name from somewhere,
Everything to be said about the OP has been said; I echo most and regret I was beaten to it. Now my witty retorts die in hastily dug shallow graves. *sniff*
Regarding the portrayal of women, when someone says a "chick in D&D" the first image that springs to my mind is of a fighter-type lady from the AD&D 2nd Ed PHB. She was wearing leather armor, of the skirtish kind, which gave her a bit of a hot pants/ miniskirt look. Bare arms, a modest bit of decolletage.
BUT!
She was also standing victoriously over a hill giant. Holding his nose ring in her left (which definitely had his attention, as he was still wearing it), her sword in her right (which had been put to good use, as the giant's thrice sundered club's parts on the ground attested to) and just a hint of boot in his crotch.
This was no meek damsel. This lady rocked my socks (and the giant's), and I'd love to get a full-size poster of that illustration.
Hey now, I like being short. But then again, all you tall folk don't get to see what I get to see :D
But we did, when we were ten. ;)
One, a single relatively tame swear word does not suggest that the magazine will include nipples and boobs.And that's where ya lost me!
You wanna learn something about increasing sales? Watch me now:
Pathfinder: We've got nipples and boobs.
Okay, I subscribed. When do I get to see boobs? And come on, Goblins must curse like ... like ... like my Granpa.
the first image that springs to my mind is of a fighter-type lady from the AD&D 2nd Ed PHB. She was wearing leather armor, of the skirtish kind, which gave her a bit of a hot pants/ miniskirt look. Bare arms, a modest bit of decolletage. BUT! She was also standing victoriously over a hill giant. Holding his nose ring in her left (which definitely had his attention, as he was still wearing it), her sword in her right (which had been put to good use, as the giant's thrice sundered club's parts on the ground attested to) and just a hint of boot in his crotch.
This was no meek damsel. This lady rocked my socks (and the giant's), and I'd love to get a full-size poster of that illustration.
Struck a chord as soon as I read it, as this has been a perennial favorite of mine as well. The painting is actually from the Second Edition DMG on page 50, as drawn by Jeff Easley.
Baconfish!