I am a die-hard Greyhawker. I expect to be told how wonderful the new campaign world is by whoever writes it, but in all seriousness, what, if any, existing campaign worlds does this new campaign most resemble or what "flavor" does it most compare to? Are we talking a hardened-Conan-like world, or a slightly-real world-flavor like Greyhawk? Or are we talking about a Super-high-level NPC's/buy your latest magical gear at MageMart like the Forgetable Realms? All responses appreciated, and please excuse my parting shots at the latter campaign. I couldn't help myself...
Creative Director
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I am a die-hard Greyhawker. I expect to be told how wonderful the new campaign world is by whoever writes it, but in all seriousness, what, if any, existing campaign worlds does this new campaign most resemble or what "flavor" does it most compare to? Are we talking a hardened-Conan-like world, or a slightly-real world-flavor like Greyhawk? Or are we talking about a Super-high-level NPC's/buy your latest magical gear at MageMart like the Forgetable Realms? All responses appreciated, and please excuse my parting shots at the latter campaign. I couldn't help myself...
Of the game worlds you've listed, the one our campaign world will most resemble is probably Greyhawk. Which shouldn't really come as much of a surprise, given who's designing our campaign world.
Of the game worlds you've listed, the one our campaign world will most resemble is probably Greyhawk. Which shouldn't really come as much of a surprise, given who's designing our campaign world.
I for one am excite about that fact.
Having read part two in the series, The Skinsaw Murders, I can tell you that you and your players should be prepared to lose some sleep after reading it/playing it. Seriously. This sucker is gruesome and creepy. I think Rich felt liberated to throw out all the creepy ideas he's had but couldn't before now. Think Rob Zombie's House of 1,000 Corpses type of creepy and gruesome.
Maybe that's just me, though.
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Having read part two in the series, The Skinsaw Murders, I can tell you that you and your players should be prepared to lose some sleep after reading it/playing it. Seriously. This sucker is gruesome and creepy. I think Rich felt liberated to throw out all the creepy ideas he's had but couldn't before now. Think Rob Zombie's House of 1,000 Corpses type of creepy and gruesome.
Maybe that's just me, though.
Now that's the kind of adventure I want to see!
Having read part two in the series, The Skinsaw Murders, I can tell you that you and your players should be prepared to lose some sleep after reading it/playing it. Seriously. This sucker is gruesome and creepy. I think Rich felt liberated to throw out all the creepy ideas he's had but couldn't before now. Think Rob Zombie's House of 1,000 Corpses type of creepy and gruesome.
Maybe that's just me, though.
I gotta say it again: I'm a bit concerned. I had planned to run my kids through the Savage Tide until I read about Scuttlecove. Now I hear that you're going to be doing Rob Zombie-esque stuff? Disappointing, to say the least.
One of the few things I miss from the 1e and 2e days is that the details of evil were left vague. Back then it was enough to know the wizard in the tower was a "bad" guy. No one needed to know the details of his crimes. I agree that it'll be good to see what the Paizo folks can do without WOTC requirements, but do we really need to see just how depraved they can be? I know that kind of stuff is popular these days, but give us a break. Not everybody who uses Paizo products is into that kind of thing.
I can't really comment on any of the Pathfinder stuff, since obviously I haven't seen any of it yet, but I'm getting a little worried here...
Oh, one last thing: Long Live Greyhawk!
Bubbagump, a valid concern. You should keep in mind that I've read an unedited first draft and it's also my impression and may not be what someone else gets out of it. Ultimately, you should check the product out yourself and make your own decision as to whether you can use it. One thing that is being incorporated into the Pathfinder modules which has been inspired by these messageboards, is flexible utility. What I mean, is that the adventures are being written in a way that you can chop the adventures up in to parts you can insert into your own campaigns or perhaps edit parts you don't want out of the AP. There are going to be notes throughout with suggestions on how to use sections independantly as their own short adventures.
So, don't despair! Pathfinder modules will definitely be useful to you even if you decide not to use everything you see in them.
James answering politely to an obvious condescendingly post such as this only shows how much he and the rest of Paizo cares about its fans.
Bubbagump: You can always leave those parts out. You don't HAVE to describe everything as they are in the adventure. That being said, I seem to remember there being a lot of fun and light-hearted adventures back in the days. I fondly remember Old Man Katan and his band of singing mushroom-people. And all of Willie Walsh's adventures. I would much like me some comedy adventures. The Kobold King actually seems to fit the bill.
It's interesting that after playing extensively in both Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk that I don't think their feel is that seperate. Certainly seeing names like Erik Mona on the cover of Faiths and Pantheons lends some credence to that. I just don't understand why people go out of their way to be offensive.
Sean Mahoney
I would like to add my vote to having my evil "vague." I'm more "The Grudge" than "Saw."
I've been caving on signing on for Pathfinder all this week, but now I'm back off the fence - into my own yard - thinking about calling the cops on the creepy neighbors instead of walking over and saying hello -kinda deal....
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I gotta say it again: I'm a bit concerned. I had planned to run my kids through the Savage Tide until I read about Scuttlecove. Now I hear that you're going to be doing Rob Zombie-esque stuff? Disappointing, to say the least.
As much as I can understand your concerns: Me, I wouldn't be content with an NPC villain being evil and that's it. For me roleplaying is more than just Dungeon pillaging, NPCs have to be worked out and be more than one dimensional.
That being said I can dispense the easiest with gruesome stuff. You can create suspense and an eerie mood without going into gruesome graphical detail. In my experience the two actually exclude each other (splatter is not suspense). And I certainly don't watch "chains saw massacre" or similar movies (just not my cup of tea).
I agree with another poster's advice: You could still dispense with the gruesome details (if there is something in it that can't be expected to be born by a child. On the other hand I am not sure if I would feature any undeads when DMing children...). But this - as much as other topics - is a matter of taste.
Greetings,
Günther
It's interesting that after playing extensively in both Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk that I don't think their feel is that seperate.
I think the difference is similar to why the original Star Trek is different from The Next Generation. Forgotten Realms is a very polished setting where the history, geography, and racial identities are very clearly defined. Greyhawk, meanwhile, shows its roots as a hodgepodge of ideas that were put together into one world.
The Forgotten Realms don't do it for me as much because it feels too "clean". A real world would be more chaotic in its development.
I wish Greyhawk's pantheon made more sense, but what can you do?
It's interesting that after playing extensively in both Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk that I don't think their feel is that seperate.I think the difference is similar to why the original Star Trek is different from The Next Generation. Forgotten Realms is a very polished setting where the history, geography, and racial identities are very clearly defined. Greyhawk, meanwhile, shows its roots as a hodgepodge of ideas that were put together into one world.
The Forgotten Realms don't do it for me as much because it feels too "clean". A real world would be more chaotic in its development.
I wish Greyhawk's pantheon made more sense, but what can you do?
As a Realms fan, let me just thank you for that analysis. I get that not everyone will like the Realms, I just wish more would figure out why they didn't like it rather than disparage it every chance they get. I know people that will always love ST and never warmed up to TNG, and I get it. Wonderful analogy.
To All,
I wouldn't be too worried and especially not knee-jerking yourself "off the fence", as one poster has described, just off of my impressions. C'mon, man! It's just my impression from my read through. If you've enjoyed what the Paizo crew has been consistenly putting out with Dungeon and Dragon magazines these past few years, then why would you even think that the quality is suddenly going to drop off? If anything, it's even better.
Now, House of 1,000 Corpses, on second thought, may be a little strong and not quite as close to the mark as, say, movies like Seven ;).
At any rate, if you like Rich's Styes adventures, you will most definitely enjoy The Skinsaw Murders. With enormous word count and writing liberty Rich has been given, he's had the luxury of really detaling his villains and describing things behind the scenes much better. Bubbugump, and anybody else that might be thinking this is too mature of content for your needs, I should point out to you that like all good adventures, most of the details are for you the DM as behind the screen information. How much of the gritty details you know about the adventure and the villain's deeds and motivations you want to let your players in on is entirely up to you. That's the beauty of it.
If these little hints are already turning you off, well then I should remind you that D&D is not a NICE game if you're worried about how your children are going to handle it. A stroll through the Monster Manuals through all incarnations of the game system (1E - v.3.5) will reveal flesh eating undead, ghosts, things that cause diseases, entities from HELL, etc. Remember that these things have been around the entire time. The themes in Pathfinder while new are still based on the elements of the game that have always been there. In fact, in a lot of instances we've been trying to get back to the roots of the game.
Again, all I can really say, is wait and see. Check it out for youself and then make a decision as to whether you can use it or not. My gut feeling is that you're really going to like it.
And how the heck did I all of a sudden become the Pathfinder spokesman?! :|
Serves me right for opening my big mouth.
Good question. :)
::Blushing with embarassment::
I gotta say it again: I'm a bit concerned. I had planned to run my kids through the Savage Tide until I read about Scuttlecove. Now I hear that you're going to be doing Rob Zombie-esque stuff? Disappointing, to say the least.
One of the few things I miss from the 1e and 2e days is that the details of evil were left vague. Back then it was enough to know the wizard in the tower was a "bad" guy. No one needed to know the details of his crimes. I agree that it'll be good to see what the Paizo folks can do without WOTC requirements, but do we really need to see just how depraved they can be? I know that kind of stuff is popular these days, but give us a break. Not everybody who uses Paizo products is into that kind of thing.
It ain't easy pleasing everybody all the time. And while I can understand this guy's desire to protect his kid's innocence and whatnot, I've gotta say: As a grownup who plays D&D with other grown folks, I hope Pathfinder is more "mature themed" and less G-rated. I'm not saying I'm looking for the book of Erotic Fantasy or anything like that. But at least let your Villains be Villains. My players want to fight Dr. Doom, not Gargamel.
I don't want the evil vaguely defined. If I'm paying money for it, I want my evil to be well defined.I can not define a villain myself for free.
It'll all turn out all right once the first issues come out and people can fill the vacuum with actual information. It won't be everyone's cup of tea, but such is life.
I really don't know if toning down mature content to a more acceptable level is easier than making PG content more edgy, but any halfway decent DM should be able to do both, depending on what he/she wants in the game.
Kobold Press
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I gotta say it again: I'm a bit concerned. I had planned to run my kids through the Savage Tide until I read about Scuttlecove. Now I hear that you're going to be doing Rob Zombie-esque stuff? Disappointing, to say the least.
One of the few things I miss from the 1e and 2e days is that the details of evil were left vague.
Well, I'm hardly one to shy away from gruesome when it's called for (thus the Empire of the Ghouls project, after all), but I have to admit that "Fortress of the Stone Giants" isn't really in that mold.
As the title suggests, I'm doing a couple big set pieces (giants go raiding!) and the style owes more to Gygax and Arneson (and a little CA Smith), than to Zombie, Barker, and King. Which isn't to say there aren't some.... moments that might freak players out, but only in the sense that any good monster makes the players worry and think about how to overcome the challenge.
So if you can hold out until part 4 of the series, that installment offers heroics in a style that might suit your tastes better than part 2. I don't think the Pathfinder goal is to hit just one note; there's a range of materials to appeal to a range of DMs and players.
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Creative Director
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Yeah; if I've learned anything about the Adventure Paths over the last 4 years, it's that players and GMs want variation along the way at the same time they want strong ties that pull it all together. So you'll be seeing a wide range of similarly themed adventures in Pathfinder as a result. Sort of like how in the Savage Tide Adventure Path you have "lost in the woods" adventures, "sneak around the evil town" adventures, and "raid the dungeon" adventures.
As for the maturity content: Pathfinder is going to be about the same as Dungeon. We won't be delving into the Hard-R-Rated stuff, but neither are we going to be softening the edgier aspects. If an adventure features a lot of flesh-eating ghouls in it (like "Skinsaw Murders" does) it's going to be horrific. But not gratuitous. I generally encourage the authors of an adventure to not worry about what's too much or what's over the top, and then in editing we strive to make things hit the right note. So when Steve says that Rich's adventure is pretty potent, I don't doubt that it is. Part of my job as Editor-in-Chief is to make sure that the final product preserves the author's intent but that would fit into what essentially amounts to a PG-13 adventure. If I do the job right, the elements remain for individual GMs to adapt the adventure to their play style (be that G, PG, PG-13, R, or X) while maintaining the adventure's roots in PG-13.
Of course, the movie ratings analogy only works for those who understand the USA movie ratings system... TRANSLATION: Dungeon's primary audience (and by extension Pathfinder's) is adults, but we don't want to present material inappropriate for anyone under 18 years of age, so don't expect hard-core gore, sex, or other adult themes to be glorified and obsessively detailed. Likewise, don't expect these themes to be completely absent from the book.
In the end, Dungeon over the last four years is the best example of the type of content you can expect to see in Pathfinder.
It's interesting that after playing extensively in both Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk that I don't think their feel is that seperate.
I was drinking water and almost choked on this one. There is a CLEAR difference between the two settings:
Forgotten Realms is sort of in a renaissance period. An important factor is books, there are plethora of books and libraries. Civilization as we know it has existed for thousands of years. You can trace some family names for countless generations. The world itself is a blanket of good, and whenever evil rears its head it's quickly smashed down and goodness returns to the realms.
Greyhawk is sort of a medieval/dark ages period, a Vancian world, a civilization in decadence. Very few books, there are no libraries (with notable exceptions); it's not like you can go to any town and look for the library (or the magic shop for Boccob's sake!). The (current) kingdoms are "new", history (at least what people remember) goes back 600 years for some detail, and maybe 1000 years with very few details. There has been other kingdoms/inhabitants in the area in the past, but nobody knows what happened (besides the latest migration of course), and those who know don't tell, and more to the point (being a decadent civilization) regular people don't care. There are equal quantities of good and evil in the world, the world is not good, nor is it evil, it is dangerous. Evil can rear its head whenever and wherever it pleases and so can good.
I find that adventurers (who are supposed to be good, or with good tendencies, at least in my game) shine the brightest amidst the grayness of Greyhawk. Forgotten Realms is too shiny already.
I wish Greyhawk's pantheon made more sense, but what can you do?
I wish planet earth's pantheon made more sense, but what can you do?
It's a complex world.*rant over*
I like Greyness, the blury lines. It is more real. I am an adult, I do not want to always run adventure that are clean and disney. So the idea of the ghouls really being ghouls just makes sense. That demons and devils are evil. I like the idea of the scrimsaw murders, been awhile sense I gave someone the creeps at the table.
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Forgotten Realms is sort of in a renaissance period. An important factor is books, there are plethora of books and libraries.
What constitutes a plethora?
There are plenty of wizards in Greyhawk, I'm sure they have libraries.There are about 20 major cities that certainly have libraries.
There are groups like the Seekers who have their own libraries.
Why aren't there a lot of books in Greyhawk?
Civilization as we know it has existed for thousands of years. You can trace some family names for countless generations.
Depending on how you read the calendars, civilization has existed in Greyhawk for over 6,000 years in the form of the Suel Imperium.
And again, what constitutes "countless" generations? 40 generations of the Kingdom of Aerdy? 45 generations for the Kingdom of Keoland? More for any Suloise noble houses who trace back to the Suel Imperium?The world itself is a blanket of good, and whenever evil rears its head it's quickly smashed down and goodness returns to the realms.
There are lingering pockets of evil in FR, even if they do have regularly incursions of evil that get smacked down.
Greyhawk is sort of a medieval/dark ages period, a Vancian world, a civilization in decadence. Very few books, there are no libraries (with notable exceptions); it's not like you can go to any town and look for the library (or the magic shop for Boccob's sake!).
For libraries, see above.
For magic shops, that is a function of how the campaign is run combined with the rules set used. Of course, even Gord found a traveling merchant with magical daggers for sale.The (current) kingdoms are "new", history (at least what people remember) goes back 600 years for some detail, and maybe 1000 years with very few details.
Who says there are very few details of those days? Just because none are published doesn't mean people don't know about it. Not commoners of course, there is no reason to expect them to be well schooled in history. But where is it said that the experts don't know anything about the days of or before the migrations?
Also, how "new" do you consider these Kingdoms? The newest is Nyrond, at more than 220 years old. Do we really still consider the US a "new" country?There has been other kingdoms/inhabitants in the area in the past, but nobody knows what happened (besides the latest migration of course), and those who know don't tell, and more to the point (being a decadent civilization) regular people don't care.
They don't?
I'm sure the elves care quite a bit about their kingdoms from before the migrations, and know considerably more. Whether they tell anyone is of course a different story.The flan are barely holding on, but I'm quite certain the Tenha remember the days before the migrations.
And where does this decadence come from? The Great Kingdom is surely decadent, but that doesn't mean Nyrond, Furyondy, Veluna, or Keoland are decadent.
Greyhawk is anything but decadent. It is a place of vibrant, active groups, almost all with the potential to grow. One has fallen, and two have arisen from its ruins. That is where the excitement is in Greyhawk. The challenges can come from more than just another crazed necromancer or psychotic cambion demipower. Greyhawk has ordinary nations engaged in dynamic interaction.
That's what I expect to see in Varisia.
Samuel Weiss said:
>>>Greyhawk is anything but decadent. It is a place of vibrant, active groups, almost all with the potential to grow. One has fallen, and two have arisen from its ruins. That is where the excitement is in Greyhawk. The challenges can come from more than just another crazed necromancer or psychotic cambion demipower. Greyhawk has ordinary nations engaged in dynamic interaction.
>>>That's what I expect to see in Varisia.
Me too. To be honest, I am a little bored of the Forgotten Realms, my campaign world since I started playing. I have never played in Greyhawk (not a very popular world here in Spain) but I have read a lot about it and I expect Varisia to be closer to Greyhawk than to Realms.
Oh, and I am not concerned at all at the quality of the product. I have blind faith in Paizo staff and I am sure they are going to give us the best product possible.
daedel, el azote.
Just a side note:
Although I am very enthusiastic about Pathfinder and the new projects of Paizo, I think that we should not have "blind faith" in them.
As good as they are, James, Erik and the others are humans like us and could (hypothetically) do something wrong.
The best we can do to support Paizo and help them make Varisia/Pathfinder a great product is to be critical in a constructive manner. Undeserved praises or uncritical acceptance of the product could undermine the creativity of the authors and of Paizo.
So far, we have seen very few of the new setting and AP, but when it comes out I do not intend to accept it all as "the best thing since the invention of bread" (even though I am tempted).
Constructive and critical customers can make the difference in helping an industry refine/ameliorate their products (and thus later on gain new market shares).
So let's do a service to Paizo: let us be "constructively critical customers" of Varisia when it comes out. ;-)
Bocklin
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Contributor
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As good as they are, James, Erik and the others are humans like us and could (hypothetically) do something wrong.
That's unpossible!
The best we can do to support Paizo and help them make Varisia/Pathfinder a great product is to be critical in a constructive manner. Undeserved praises or uncritical acceptance of the product could undermine the creativity of the authors and of Paizo.
Yes please. We always, always, always want feedback from our fans. We can't possibly know what people want unless they tell us. :)
So let's do a service to Paizo: let us be "constructively critical customers" of Varisia when it comes out. ;-)
That is indeed an invaluable service. :)
...Several interesting questions and remarks...
You missed my point and at the same time reinforced it. (Or maybe I missed yours?)
Obviously your take on Greyhawk is different than mine, as it should be. Greyhawk was the starting point for each DM to create it's own campaign. I've taken my route, you've taken yours.
My point is that Greyhawk is very distinct from the Forgotten Realms. You can't be playing in Greyhawk for months and forget you are, or think that maybe you are in the Forgotten Realms. Even your version is distinct. Maybe your point was that one can make their Greyhawk pretty much like the Realms?
The only point I'd like touch directly about your post is about Gord and the traveling salesman:
I too do anything for plot, the world doesn't constrain me, it is MY Greyhawk. As long as I can keep the suspension of disbelief, I let my creativity run free. Heck, I've destroyed part of the Gnarley forest and Welkwood with a meteorite before, sue me! I've presented magic merchants before too, I prefer lone collectors to shops with big front ads.
In (I guess my) Greyhawk if I were to tell my players that their PCs are walking down the street on a small town and they see a magic shop, they'll immediately become wary, maybe thinking it's an illusion, or a trap, or something.
If we were in the Forgotten Realms they'd sell, buy, and complain that the town sucks all in one breadth.
Bringing this back to topic: Varisia.
Everything I've read, and responses from Erik on Tuesday's chat, all confirm that it will follow the "Greyhawk method of evolution". That is, it will be adventure driven, with the world being detailed as much as the adventure needs. This approach is perfect for incorporating Varisia into my Oerth.
Yeah; if I've learned anything about the Adventure Paths over the last 4 years, it's that players and GMs want variation along the way at the same time they want strong ties that pull it all together. So you'll be seeing a wide range of similarly themed adventures in Pathfinder as a result. Sort of like how in the Savage Tide Adventure Path you have "lost in the woods" adventures, "sneak around the evil town" adventures, and "raid the dungeon" adventures.
As for the maturity content: Pathfinder is going to be about the same as Dungeon. We won't be delving into the Hard-R-Rated stuff, but neither are we going to be softening the edgier aspects. If an adventure features a lot of flesh-eating ghouls in it (like "Skinsaw Murders" does) it's going to be horrific. But not gratuitous. I generally encourage the authors of an adventure to not worry about what's too much or what's over the top, and then in editing we strive to make things hit the right note. So when Steve says that Rich's adventure is pretty potent, I don't doubt that it is. Part of my job as Editor-in-Chief is to make sure that the final product preserves the author's intent but that would fit into what essentially amounts to a PG-13 adventure. If I do the job right, the elements remain for individual GMs to adapt the adventure to their play style (be that G, PG, PG-13, R, or X) while maintaining the adventure's roots in PG-13.
Of course, the movie ratings analogy only works for those who understand the USA movie ratings system... TRANSLATION: Dungeon's primary audience (and by extension Pathfinder's) is adults, but we don't want to present material inappropriate for anyone under 18 years of age, so don't expect hard-core gore, sex, or other adult themes to be glorified and obsessively detailed. Likewise, don't expect these themes to be completely absent from the book.
In the end, Dungeon over the last four years is the best example of the type of content you can expect to see in Pathfinder.
The sheer length of Skinsaw has enabled me to work in several elements I probably wouldn't have space for in the old days - so for example there are obviously some spooky moments, but also a few moments of dark humor, some nice wilderness segments that I'm really pleased with and a climactic ending that is fairly pure swords and sorcery - in fact I had the wonderful scene at Khazad-dum very much in mind as I was writing it.
This freedom is very liberating, and to be honest I can't wait to hear what you think of Skinsaw or see what James and the chaps cook up visually and editorially.
The suspense for all this is just killing me. Seriously. My first thought on seeing the cover art for The Skinsaw Murders was that it was based on a description of a painting from the Lovecraft story, Pickman's Model. Gruesome, creepy, chilling.....I want it so bad.
Waiting sucks! Now where is that copy of Lovecraft on my shelf.....
...Now where is that copy of Lovecraft on my shelf.....
It's on your shelf :-P
m'nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnar
This freedom is very liberating, and to be honest I can't wait to hear what you think of Skinsaw or see what James and the chaps cook up visually and editorially.
After my initial anger at the cancellation of Dungeon and Dragon magazines, I came to the same conclusion: this really frees up the writers, artists and other production people at Paizo to let their imaginations run wild and get really creative and pull out all the stops without being shackled by the same old D&D worlds and traditions. I am really looking forward to seeing what kind of new world you folks can come up with - I'm liking what I see so far. Keep up the good work!