The campaign overview for STAP in #138 is very useful for getting a basic idea of the plotline and what kinds of PCs might work well. In AoW, Paizo put together a much more extensive campaign overview which ended up being published as a download, "Age of Worms Overload," after it ended up being way to big to put into the printed magazine. The "Overload" had a great plot summary which helped me plan some things out before seeing details of the later adventures, plus statted up NPCs, tavern encounters, rumors, and extra background about Diamond Lake region that I found very helpful. Will there be a feature like this for STAP?
Creative Director
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The campaign overview for STAP in #138 is very useful for getting a basic idea of the plotline and what kinds of PCs might work well. In AoW, Paizo put together a much more extensive campaign overview which ended up being published as a download, "Age of Worms Overload," after it ended up being way to big to put into the printed magazine. The "Overload" had a great plot summary which helped me plan some things out before seeing details of the later adventures, plus statted up NPCs, tavern encounters, rumors, and extra background about Diamond Lake region that I found very helpful. Will there be a feature like this for STAP?
Yes. It's called Savage Tide Player's Guide. It'll be initially available at Gen Con as a free bonus to anyone who buys or extends a subscription to either magazine, or to anyone else for five bucks. After Gen Con, whatever's left over gets sold at paizo.com for 5 bucks a pop. Once we're sold out, it'll probably go up online on our site as a PDF.
The Savage Tide Player's Guide will present additional details on the city of Sasserine, including several "district feats," lists of famous NPCs, locations for all major shops and taverns and shrines and other locations of interest, and some other handy bits of information for new players to familiarize themselves with the city where the campaign begins. DMs will find this book useful as well to expand adventrues in Sasserine.
Also at Gen Con, we'll be hosting a "Getting in on the Adventure Path" seminar, where we'll chat about all three Adventure Paths in detail. If you're going to be at Gen Con and have some burning questions about any of the Adventure Paths, this is a great chance to catch us off guard and ask us in person, when we won't have as much time to hedge our responses in mystery and wonder!
In Dungeon, we'll print a Sasserine Backdrop, which gives DMs more information about several key locations in the city. And in the same month in Dragon we'll be presenting six sample affiliations (PHB II style) that the PCs can join and rise in rank throughout the campaign.
We've got some other bonus features planned for other adventrues in the campaign later on in the year, but we're not ready to reveal them yet.
As for a plot summary; what's printed in Dragon #138 is pretty much it for now. If people have specific questions about how something might play out, go ahead and post questions here on the boards. I'll do my best to answer them, but keep in mind that in a lot of cases I won't be able to offer detailed previews, since most of those adventures haven't even been written yet!
Now, is there going to be anything additional in the Player's Guide that will make me want to spend money on this? It may only be $5, but why bother spending the cash when one can just get it for free later?
Yes. It's called Savage Tide Player's Guide. It'll be initially available at Gen Con as a free bonus to anyone who buys or extends a subscription to either magazine, or to anyone else for five bucks. After Gen Con, whatever's left over gets sold at paizo.com for 5 bucks a pop. Once we're sold out, it'll probably go up online on our site as a PDF.The Savage Tide Player's Guide will present additional details on the city of Sasserine, including several "district feats," lists of famous NPCs, locations for all major shops and taverns and shrines and other locations of interest, and some other handy bits of information for new players to familiarize themselves with the city where the campaign begins. DMs will find this book useful as well to expand adventrues in Sasserine.
Also at Gen Con, we'll be hosting a "Getting in on the Adventure Path" seminar, where we'll chat about all three Adventure Paths in detail. If you're going to be at Gen Con and have some burning questions about any of the Adventure Paths, this is a great chance to catch us off guard and ask us in person, when we won't have as much time to hedge our responses in mystery and wonder!
In Dungeon, we'll print a Sasserine Backdrop, which gives DMs more information about several key locations in the city. And in the same month in Dragon we'll be...
James, thanks for the good rundown. I won't be at GenCon, but do need to re-up my Dragon subscription in a month or so. I take it you'll be announcing when the free copy for renewal deal is available on the Paizo site?
It would be nice to have a more intensive plot summary and some of the DM's tools that were presented in the Overload--I don't need the conversions since I'll likely run it in Greyhawk. But I understand how much work it is to put these things together, and then have to give them away for no extra profit, and it sounds as though the Player's Guide will still be a big help in bringing Sasserine to life.
Looks like the STAP will be every bit as good as AoW--I may have to see if I can get a group together to play it when I get to my new digs in the Utica NY area.
P.S. GGG and other Michiganders--if you're reading this, thanks for offering your occasional advice on RPG matters in this fine state to a Californian in exile. Your web-companionship has been much appreciated.
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Creative Director
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Now, is there going to be anything additional in the Player's Guide that will make me want to spend money on this? It may only be $5, but why bother spending the cash when one can just get it for free later?
That'll be up to you to decide. If you want to start Savage Tide as soon as you get the first magazine, you'll probably want to buy the print copy. If you can wait a bit, the free download might be better.
However, the print copy has a heavy cardstock cover that's not attached to the booklet (think the old-time module style), with the map of Sasserine printed inside; it could work pretty well as a DM screen.
Hm... And there would be my DM-screen...
If I would subscribe now I would get the Player's Guide and which issue of Dungeon magazine? 138 or 139?
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Creative Director
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Hm... And there would be my DM-screen...
If I would subscribe now I would get the Player's Guide and which issue of Dungeon magazine? 138 or 139?
If you subscribe now, your subscriptin will probably start with issue #139. The only way to get the print copy of the Player's Guide, though, is to subscribe at Gen Con (or to extend a subscription at Gen Con, or to just buy the guide at Gen Con).
After Gen Con, whatever's left over goes on sale here at paizo.com.
Oh that is a problem, since I live on the other side of the pool. :( And am very sad to hear this. But perhaps I am lucky enough to get a copy here. Thank you anyway.
That'll be up to you to decide. If you want to start Savage Tide as soon as you get the first magazine, you'll probably want to buy the print copy. If you can wait a bit, the free download might be better.However, the print copy has a heavy cardstock cover that's not attached to the booklet (think the old-time module style), with the map of Sasserine printed inside; it could work pretty well as a DM screen.
Touche, Mister Editor, touche.... :)
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Yes. It's called Savage Tide Player's Guide. It'll be initially available at Gen Con as a free bonus to anyone who buys or extends a subscription to either magazine, or to anyone else for five bucks.
Since I just ordered a subscription to Dungeon and my first issue will be sent on August 22nd, Is there a possibility of receiving a free copy of the S.T. Players Guide with my first issue? The whole reason I got a subscription was for the upcoming Savage Tide A.P. Luckily it looks like my first issue is the issue with the first S.T. adventure.
Oh that is a problem, since I live on the other side of the pool. :( And am very sad to hear this. But perhaps I am lucky enough to get a copy here. Thank you anyway.
I am also one of those people who do not make every Gen Con that WOTC likes to throw around and, furthermore, when I subscribe, I do so 3 year at a time. You are offering a free product to those that pay a higher price, most likely through a one year subscription, or who pay $5 to get one at Gen Con. How about helping out those of us who loved Dungeon since the first issue and have been loyal fans and supported this magazine and Dragon for every year it has been in circulation..
I think it is very unfair that those of us who don't drop everything we have going in life just to visit a stand at Gen Con are excluded from your offer. What you should do is offer this product as part of any renewal, and just not ship them until after Gen Con. For those of us with 3 year subscriptions, you should also just mail us a copy as a bonus thank you for receiving our money 3 years in advance. Consider it interest on the money we have already given you.
I think you are being cheap and petty in regards to this matter. Yes, we can wait for a few months and download it, but we shouldn’t have to. You, who are providing a service to us the consumer, should make available, for free either through the pdf or preferably through a mailing of the actual module style document, when it comes out, not months later when the last of your limited printings has been sold. Your printing run should include one for every current subscriber and enough for a projected amount of sales and give-aways at Gen Con. When the first issue with the first part of the adventure path comes out, you should then also release any overload material you have on-line.
Things sure have changed in the years since I had a subscription and at times I regret getting another. I remember when Dragon and Dungeon would give out free Cds and DM screens. I guess we are just lucky that every once and a while you think enough of our support to add a map into the works. I guess I should be happy that you honor us by taking our money and make a magazine out of it. I guess I should just be content that we have given you a job through our constant buying of your thoughts and time and efforts. I guess I should, but I am not.
Stop being a dink about what we will eventually get for free and try being grateful for once and give us a break every once and a while. Some of us has been buying longer than you have been working.
I think you are being cheap and petty in regards to this matter. Yes, we can wait for a few months and download it, but we shouldn’t have to. You, who are providing a service to us the consumer, should make available, for free either through the pdf or preferably through a mailing of the actual module style document, when it comes out, not months later when the last of your limited printings has been sold. Your printing run should include one for every current subscriber and enough for a projected amount of sales and give-aways at Gen Con. When the first issue with the first part of the adventure path comes out, you should then also release any overload material you have on-line.
Things sure have changed in the years since I had a subscription and at times I regret getting another. I remember when Dragon and Dungeon would give out free Cds and DM screens. I guess we...
Dude, you need to check the magazine a little more thoroughly before making such an asinine comment. You've been a subscriber for a while? Hmmm. Guess the mailman simply removed all of the tons of cool extras Paizo put in the magazine before he/she delivered it to you. The quality of the content alone is payment 3 times over for your money. And cheap? You have no clue do you? Maybe you should check the thread about the guy that was running one of the APs and had every single issue the AP adventures were in stolen from his car and Paizo replaced them all for FREE. Does that sound cheap to you?!!!
Dude, get over it! You have to wait a month or so to get it for $5 and all of a sudden the magazine is cheap and petty. The only person cheap and petty seems to be you! Dink, indeed.
James,
I, too, cannot make it to GenCon. James, if you have ANY input on the print run of this supplement, please make sure it's large enough to accomodate the MANY of us who will have to order it online subsequently.
Thanks,
Antithesis
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Creative Director
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The print run is set; it's already going so there's nothing that I (or anyone else, for that matter) can do about it now. AND: I don't know how big the print run was off the top of my head. This is the first time we've done a print supplement for a current Adventrue Path, so we're in uncharted waters on some levels. There's no way to tell how popular this thing will be. I wouldn't be surprised if everyone who wanted to run Savage Tide ended up buying a half-dozen for their group, but nor would I be surprised if the anticipated popularity of the booklet doesn't live up to snuff and we end up shipping boxes of them back to the Paizo offices from Gen Con. There's no way to tell.
The tradition of offering a bonus for people who come to Gen Con and pick up or extend a subscription's one that's been going on as long as I can remember, probably as long as the magazines have been around. Last year it was an art print of the cover of issue #124; the year before that it was free shirts. And so on. While I certainly understand the concern that folk who can't make it to Gen Con might feel left out (being someone whose first Gen Con was 2 years ago), I can promise that we're doing the best we can to make sure there's enough of these to go around. I certainly appreciate readers who have been with the magazine from the start, or readers who regularly pick up 3-year subscriptions. I realize that the magazine's core readers are one of the primary factors that kept Dungeon around through some pretty rough patches. Trust me: offering the Savage Tide Player's Guide as a Gen Con subscription bonus was in no way intended to slight those who can't make it to the show. That said... we have to do SOMETHING to drive business, and Gen Con's the biggest opportunity we have all year to boost sales.
James, we appreciate what you are doing. I for one will be glad to pay for one or more of them. ~shrugs~ However, I do know that I will probably also download it as well. If there are no extras for us, then that is the way things go. Keep up your good work.
Heathansson, I too think they will sell. ~shrugs~ However, I have been wrong before. I figure that 7 copies at $5 per each is $35 + tax. Oh, about $37 to $38 total. I would then go to my checkbook, verify that I have the amount and order tham. ~grins~ I am setting the money aside right now.
~groans~ Tham?!?!? THAM??? I have been in the south too long. ~hearing "you might be a Redneck if..." in my head right now~
James,
I appreciate that you did what you could to make the print run large enough. Hopefully, there'll be one left for me (who just subscribed *less than two weeks ago* to Dungeon for the first time) when they go on sale.
Antithesis
(who is beginning to have visions of having to make an eBay purchase in the very near future. :( )
Heathansson, I too think they will sell. ~shrugs~ However, I have been wrong before. I figure that 7 copies at $5 per each is $35 + tax. Oh, about $37 to $38 total. I would then go to my checkbook, verify that I have the amount and order tham. ~grins~ I am setting the money aside right now.
~groans~ Tham?!?!? THAM??? I have been in the south too long. ~hearing "you might be a Redneck if..." in my head right now~
Mayonaise? Yeah, Mayonaise. As in 'man theys alot of people here!'
The supplement sounds cool. Guess I'll have to wait for it to come out because I can't go to anything cool ever.
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Also at Gen Con, we'll be hosting a "Getting in on the Adventure Path" seminar, where we'll chat about all three Adventure Paths in detail. If you're going to be at Gen Con and have some burning questions about any of the Adventure Paths, this is a great chance to catch us off guard and ask us in person, when we won't have as much time to hedge our responses in mystery and wonder!
I know this is probably too much to ask, but is there any chance of a recording or transcript of this seminar being made available?
Cheeky I know, but I can dream can't I?
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Creative Director
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I'm predicting it will sell like umbrellas in Seattle.
Hmmm... There's actually not a lot of umbrellas going on in Seattle, to tell the truth, since when it rains most people just let it hit them and move on. So hopefully the Player's Guide'll do better than that! :-)
As for a transcript of the seminar; we've no plans to do one ourself, but usually someone in the audience does one, or at least reports on the key points that came up during the talk.
I think you are being cheap and petty in regards to this matter. Yes, we can wait for a few months and download it, but we shouldn’t have to. You, who are providing a service to us the consumer, should make available, for free either through the pdf or preferably through a mailing of the actual module style document, when it comes out, not months later when the last of your limited printings has been sold. Your printing run should include one for every current subscriber and enough for a projected amount of sales and give-aways at Gen Con. When the first issue with the first part of the adventure path comes out, you should then also release any overload material you have on-line.
Things sure have changed in the years since I had a subscription and at times I regret getting another. I remember when Dragon and Dungeon would give out free Cds and DM screens. I guess we...
Dude, you need to check the magazine a little more thoroughly before making such an asinine comment. You've been a subscriber for a while? Hmmm. Guess the mailman simply removed all of the tons of cool extras Paizo put in the magazine before he/she delivered it to you. The quality of the content alone is payment 3 times over for your money. And cheap? You have no clue do you? Maybe you should check the thread about the guy that was running one of the APs and had every single issue the AP adventures were in stolen from his car and Paizo replaced them all for FREE. Does that sound cheap to you?!!!
Dude, get over it! You have to wait a month or so to get it for $5 and all of a sudden the magazine is cheap and petty. The only person cheap and petty seems to be you! Dink, indeed.
I don’t need to justify my comments to you; but I will say a bit more anyway. Why? Cause you don’t understand; and I don’t think you ever will.
Do I hate Dungeon Magazine? No, or I would not buy it any longer. Do I think that I am not getting what I paid for? No, or I would not buy that magazine. Can I be pissed off that some one from the magazine said they will not release a PDF pertaining to the magazine until they “Sell” off the remaining print run left over from GenCon? You bet your ass I can and will.
I didn’t know about the Overload section for Age of Worms until the 6th issue came out in the path - I don‘t cruise www.paizo.com everyday; but I am sure the overload section for that path was available from the beginning since they didn‘t give it out at GenCon last year. If it was not, it should have been. Now that I know there is an overload section for the Savage Tide Adventure Path and I know they have it ready before the first issue of that path comes out it, seems greedy on their part not to share that information. Personally, if they combined shipping on the physical copy of the Overload with my regular order, I would not mind paying $5 for it. My problem with the whole deal is that they disregard customers who buy the magazine on-line versus at GenCon. Wow, order it on-line and you save $1. Take time off of work and away from the kids and go to GenCon, you get a $5 product, while supplies last.
It is a comparison value between placing an order at a convention or ordering on-line or an order card. For me it screams that they value orders taken at a convention over orders they get on-line. He says they get a fair amount of business from that, but when you take into consideration that they get my business without having to coax me into their stand that they have to rent and man (basically free money by getting me to order it on-line) then it is a slap in the face that they are giving them free items and we get nothing; I‘m sorry, $1 off. Worse, we won’t most likely see that item in a pdf format for a month or two.
If they want to give away an art print for a GenCon subscription, fine, no problems. If they want to give away free t-shirts, no problems. If you want to give away backdrop information that can and will aid in the smooth running of an adventure and not make that very same information available to the rest of us until a month or so later, big problem. What is the difference? You don’t use an art print or a t-shirt to run the adventure. Either make us the same offer and combine it with our first issue of the path (to save on shipping) or be a man and offer it as a pdf right away, when the first issue in the path appears. You can’t change my mind on the way I feel in that regard. It is a back up plan to satisfy their greed.
I am sure the conversation around the thinking table went like this:
“Hey, what should we do for GenCon this year?” Guy One queries around a table.
“How about we offer them the Overload material before anyone else could get it and we bind it in a DM style screen? That would be awesome,” Guy Two delights at his idea.
“Are you nuts,” screams Guy Three? “what if we print too many?”
“I didn’t think of that,” replies Guy Two.
“I know,” states Guy Four firmly, “we can sell the remaining ones on-line for, I don’t know, what would be our cost?”
“17 cents per unit if we do a 10,000 print run,” adds a voice from the background.
“$5 for any extras sold on-line after GenCon,” replies Guy Four.
“That won’t work,” complains Gal One, “why would they pay $5 to purchase the Overload material when they can get it for free by downloading the pdf like they did for the Age of Worms? The shipping alone would cost more than the product.”
“Simple, we just won’t release the pdf version until everyone buys the printed versions first.”
After much back slapping and self congratulations they go for an espresso and order in Chinese for lunch. If you don’t think they do this, then you are wrong. I still get offers in the e-mail to, “act now, we only have three miniatures left, buy it today before they are gone.”
Yes, I can get bitter at times and when I see, in what I personally consider greed, then yes, I will say something. As to some guy who got a bunch of back issue magazines from Dungeon, hey, that is great, but no, I didn’t see that. Would it have changed my mind? NO! One good deed does not a saint make. Would I write that on a forum? NO! I was a subscriber since the 1st issue of Dungeon and starting buying dragon since Issue 51 and a subscriber since issue #92 of Dragon. A fire claimed issues 1-95 of Dungeon and 51-302 of Dragon including best of Dragon volumes 1-5 and all my 3.0 books (the loss of the 3.0 books wasn‘t too bad, 3.5 was right around the corner; good thing my AD&D books were in a different box and location). You didn’t see me asking for freebies from Paizo. Would I love to have those issues back? Yes, I love re-reading them, even after all these years those old articles and modules are a great resource. Do I expect Paizo to sift through their back issues and ship me one of every magazine? No. How ironic it is then that I get pissed at them cause they are too cheap to post a free pdf when the module comes out versus a month or two down the road?
They want to do a good deed for the subscribers, then offer the pdf when the first issue of the path comes out or make a double sized issue to kick off the adventure path and include the overload material and the “DM” style screen. Charge an extra buck or so for it if ya want, but don’t be a dink about it by denying those of us who can’t make it to GenCon a product that can make the running of one of their products a lot smoother.
Christopher, your first post really pissed me off yesterday and I reacted. Now I don't really care. Whatever. Sorry you don't feel that you are getting what you should out of the magazine. Myself, I'm very pleased with everything they're doing and adamantly disagree with your take on the whole thing. That's all.
I'm looking forward to Gencon 2007. I will bring homebrewed mead for the Paizo folks and shake their hand, to thank them for continuing the tradition of excellence that has been the cornerstone of my D&D campaigns for 20 years.
Bonus marketing at conventions is one of the oldest tactics in the book. I'm a cop and whenever I go to cop conventions I get marketing goodies from businesses catering to the doughnut knights, freebies from gun and gear manufacturers, etc. I got a free Glock range bag for buying three law enforcement magazines for my .40......that's just the way life works.
Turns out Glock offered what was left of their range bags to anyone who ordered clips from them "after" the convention season was over, so if it's good enough for an Austrian gun maker, it's gotta be okay for Paizo to do the same.
If it's good enough for an Austrian gun maker, it's gotta be okay for Paizo to do the same.
Perhaps it's "okay", I'll allow, but I have to confess that I kind of agree with Christopher on this matter (although perhaps not with as much vitriol). Perhaps I'm looking through glasses that are tinted with "I'm not going to be able to make it to GenCon, I can see these selling VERY quickly at Paizo.com IF they even make it that far--I'm very likely going to have to buy one on eBay for quadruple the price" and I'm not being objective enough. I dunno.
My two coppers, anyway.
Antithesis
I was just trying to bring the thread back to some lightheartedness with my austrian gun maker comment. All I'm saying is that Paizo's gotta do what Paizo's gotta do. Special "bonus" features at conventions are a long tried and true business tactic. The only reason subscribers find out about it is because Paizo is an open book and shares information with their readers to a much greater extent than most magazines.
It's not that big a deal...yes, I would like to get the ST overload as well because I'm a subscriber, but it's not like they're giving out dialysis to kidney patients.....
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Creative Director
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Frankly, I'd be shocked, stunned, and amazed if we sold out of the extra Savage Tide Player's Guides before everyone who wanted them got a chance to get them.
In any case, let's try to remain civil on the boards here. I understand the point of view that it sucks to miss out on promos just because you can't get to Gen Con, and we're doing what we can to make sure everyone who wants a shot at this product to get it.
And to be clear, the cover of the Savage Tide Player's Guide is NOT a "classic" DM screen. It doesn't have charts and graphs, and it doesn't present any information that won't already be avialable to anyone who gets a copy of issue #139. It's a two-panel cover in the style of the old-school module covers that features a map of the city of Sasserine. You can USE it as a DM Screen, sure, but the information on that map is hardly limited to this product. Issue #139 ships with the same map in the form of a four panel poster. The booklet itself is 16 pages (well, 15 and an ad) of additional material for players (and DMs) about the city of Sasserine.
And yes. Selling the leftovers from Gen Con may sound like a cash grab... because it is. Paizo's not made from money; far from it. I'd love to send copies of the Player's Guide to everyone who has a subscription, but that type of generosity is unfortunately a poor way to keep a niche-market magazine afloat. What you might call greed I'd call necessity.
Frankly, I'd be shocked, stunned, and amazed if we sold out of the extra Savage Tide Player's Guides before everyone who wanted them got a chance to get them.
In any case, let's try to remain civil on the boards here. I understand the point of view that it sucks to miss out on promos just because you can't get to Gen Con, and we're doing what we can to make sure everyone who wants a shot at this product to get it.
James,
I apologize if my skepticism concerning the promo overstepped the bounds of civility (I was trying to be polite; I'm not quite sure where I misstepped). I will withhold my judgement until I see how everything plays itself out. Perhaps I'm worrying over nothing and you'll have plenty left over. I just don't want to get "frozen out", and I'm sure you can appreciate that.
Farewell2Kings,
I knew you were just trying out some levity with your comment about Glock and it wasn't lost on me. Your anecdote just seemed an apt note for me to piggyback my feelings about the promo onto. If it seemed like I was criticizing you--I apologize. I certainly didn't mean that by any means.
Antithesis
I don’t need to justify my comments to you; but I will say a bit more anyway. Why? Cause you don’t understand; and I don’t think you ever will...
With respect, I don't think personal attacks like "cheap and petty" and "dink" have been justified yet; nor do I think they can be justified.
Regards,
Jack
I don’t need to justify my comments to you; but I will say a bit more anyway. Why? Cause you don’t understand; and I don’t think you ever will.Do I hate Dungeon Magazine? No, or I would not buy it any longer. Do I think that I am not getting what I paid for? No, or I would not buy...
You, sir, are a petty ass.
Farewell2Kings,
I knew you were just trying out some levity with your comment about Glock and it wasn't lost on me. Your anecdote just seemed an apt note for me to piggyback my feelings about the promo onto. If it seemed like I was criticizing you--I apologize. I certainly didn't mean that by any means.
Antithesis
It's all good! No apology necessary, I wasn't offended. I just wanted to make sure my comment wasn't misunderstood.
And yes. Selling the leftovers from Gen Con may sound like a cash grab... because it is. Paizo's not made from money; far from it. I'd love to send copies of the Player's Guide to everyone who has a subscription, but that type of generosity is unfortunately a poor way to keep a niche-market magazine afloat. What you might call greed I'd call necessity.
See, even after all of the above, you don't get it either. It really isn't about offering us or not offering us the product.
It is about when you make it available to those of us not going to GenCon. Stick to shirts and posters an avoid offering information that should be free and ready to download when the first issue of the path comes out.
The only reason I saw this thread was cause I did a search to find the overload material, hoping to get a glance at that information. In the Age of Worms, after going through the Whispering Cairn and going to the mines, my players wanted to confront Balabar Smenk via an ambush. The only information I had was that he was a 7th rogue. I made the encounter as hard as I dared, but it should have been more after reading the Overload section, which I didn't even know about until later.
I would have loved that information from the beginning and I should have had it. You don't want to give a copy to everyone, fine, I don't care. However, where you, and Paizo, become unbearable is when you would rather turn a profit at the expense of customer loyalty. You are going to make the pdf available to us anyway, sooner or later. Why not do the right thing and make it available when the first issue of the path comes out? Why hold the rest of us accountable for a Paizo profit scheme?
The problem has a simple solution, don’t give away information that is really part of the magazine. Just stick to things that don’t directly effect game play, like shirts or whatever and get the overload pdf material out in a timely manner. Heck, even just getting the overload material out the same time as the first part of the path would be fine.
…and, if the magazine needs to sell $5 handouts to stay afloat, you might want to find another accountant.
Oh my god… okay, I thought the name was familiar. James Jacobs, the future Editor-in-Chief of Dungeon Magazine. Not that it matters, but since I now know to whom I am addressing, I do have a thing or two to tell you. Hmm, I hope your customer relation skills improve and your attitude toward long time customers changes. I think Erik Mona did a remarkable job considering he juggled both magazines, but he was over burdened and had a dangerous way of thinking of things at times. Perhaps concentrating on just dragon may make him shine a bit more.
You on the other hand have big shoes to fill, and I am not referring to Erik Mona‘s. I think that if you continue with a line of thought to milk your potential customers, while ignoring the needs of those who have long ago paid for others to pave the way into this position, then you are going about this new position with a very dangerous attitude indeed. It seems you are ignoring a simple request to make available a pdf in a timely manner at the expense of customer satisfaction. Until I read this post, I was satisfied in general with my service. After reading your responses and your attitude I think that you are walking a double edged sword and you’re not sure of were to jump for safety. Sure, I may have been, shall we say, a bit sarcastic and harsh in tone, but I am not running a magazine, now am I?
As a cover to cover reader since issue one, I pray you re-evaluate your positions and ask for aid from those who have paved the long road behind you and seek aid for the road you will have to pave yourself. Erik Mona says, “but the time has come to pass along Dungeon -- my favorite magazine -- to the capable hands of Mr. James Jacobs.” I am not so sure now that you have as capable hands as he so glowingly proclaimed. I hope your editing skills are better than your ability to relate to customer issues; and I pray you can find a balance between keeping the magazine afloat and doing the right thing. I think you will find the later harder than you might think.
FYI, Christopher, the only one that seems to be really bothered by this whole blown up issue is you. Yeah, a couple of other people were bummed that it wasn't just a freebie to subscribers, but have contented themselves with paying the $5 that they might have spent at McDonald's that day for lunch for it when it is available to everyone.
I'm not going to insult you. You obviously really care about the magazine and I can't fault you for that. I don't know what you think James Jacobs is doing that deserves such harsh criticism. James was extremely involved in the magazine with Erik Mona as Editor-in-Chief all along. It's probably one of the best transitions ever since their direction for the magazine was pretty much the same and you can expect the same if not better quality we've all grown accustomed to.
Remember that Dungeon magazine is a business and hardly pulling a major profit by selling these primers for $5 when you consider the costs that go into printing, writing, and getting artwork for it.
Now, I really don't think that this is going to change your opinion and in fact I don't think anything really will short of James telling you that out of all of the subscribers he is going to personally mail this to you free of charge for all your years of unstinting loyalty and being such a swell fella.
Anyway, that's my take on things.
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ha!
hahahahaha!
wow, that really made me laugh inside.
newsflash: a 10,000 print run, that's cake.
do you know the costs of shipping, postage, paper, ink, press-time, proofs, re-made proofs, advertising, marketing, writing, editing, designing, redesigning, Reredesigning that goes into your average publication?
i'm gonna bet NOT, since you AREN'T (by your own admission) running a magazine.
kudos to you for reading for so long. i am sure you have acumulated many many hours of good gameplay for your gaming fun time. that doesn't really excuse your impolite nature or blatant accusatory tone.
i mean, here you are, on the FREE site that PAIZO owns, operates, and FREQUENTS. (and the likelihood of another CEO/Editor In Chief of say, maxim, WoTC, etc frequenting, READING and RESPONDING on said boards is about nil), and throwing venom in their faces.
wow.
but, to each his own, and you are very much entitled to your opinion. as for me, i'm ordering at least 1 of the booklets, and will probably d/l and distribute the PDF to my players when we do start the AP.
seriously, that was funny.
namaste'
the hamster
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Creative Director
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It is about when you make it available to those of us not going to GenCon. Stick to shirts and posters an avoid offering information that should be free and ready to download when the first issue of the path comes out.
I've been a reader/subscriber (and writer) to Dungeon from the start as well. I certainly hope that, going forward, I'll be able to fill the shoes of the talented folk who've run the show before me. I can only ask that you check out the next few issues and decide for yourself. I certainly regret if my tone in previous posts sounded disrespectful to our readers and subscribers—that was certainly not my intention at all.
As for the availability of the Savage Tide Player's Guide... here's the details as far as I understand them: it will be available to everyone who wants it by the time the first Savage Tide adventure is available. Issue #139 (which has the first adventure) will be getting to subscribers near the end of August, at about the time we plan on making the supplement available as a free PDF. The remaining print copies will be available on our website for $5 apiece as soon as Gen Con's over. The print run is in the thousands, by the way.
It's worth noting that the Age of Worms Overload wasn't made availabe as a download until 2-3 months after the campaign began, mostly becasue we underestimated the work and logistics of generating all the information. So the supplementary material for Savage Tide is actually going to be more timely than the material for Age of Worms. Is it a perfect solution to spread this information over multiple articles and products? Probably not, but it's the best we can do.
It bears repeating—the info in the Savage Tide Player's Guide will be available ASAP as a PDF download to go along with the release of the first adventure in the campaign.
I am not so sure now that you have as capable hands as he so glowingly proclaimed. I hope your editing skills are better than your ability to relate to customer issues; and I pray you can find a balance between keeping the magazine afloat and doing the right thing. I think you will find the later harder than you might think.
...
Give me a break...every business has to make an occasional decision that isn't popular with every customer. Just because the editor didn't immediately kow-tow to your position, you get into long winded insults from a lonely soapbox.
Here's the issue at point here:
The STAP Player's Guide is content
The AoW overload was content
Content costs money
Last time it was free
This time it isn't
Businesses use hooks, special offers and freebies to get more business
Such is life in a capitalistic world
Get over it, it's $5 and you can get it later on too
Hell, you must blow a freakin' gasket every time your cellular provider gives new subscribers more minutes for less money than you're paying....do you go to their messageboards and insult their VP of Operations as well? Oh wait, they don't have messageboards and their VP of Operations could care less.
Here, you got two personal responses and explanations..where else are you going to get that? Not many places, I'm sure.
How does Paizo show its love to its subscribers? $39.95 a year subscription is how....there is nowhere else you are going to get 36 adventures with great cartography, super artwork and quality delivered to your door every month. Yeah, it's slow delivery sometimes and whatnot, but it's hands down the best value in gaming. I can't even count the sheer number of hours of entertainment the magazine has provided to me and six other people over the decades. Whining about a little $5 player's guide marketing scheme at a convention to attract more subscribers is misguided, in my opinion.
You know what? I think I might buy two...at GenCon...Cuz I want to support the company that supports me. They are rare in today's business world.
-Neomorte
some stuff...
See, even after all of the above, you don't get it either. It really isn't about offering us or not offering us the product...
You may be right. Perhaps James should see the error of his ways and make available this material immediately to all of us. Perhaps Dungeon will enter a new Golden Age of customer satisfaction.
My guess is you'll still be rude and insulting.
Jack
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Christopher, your first post really pissed me off yesterday and I reacted. Now I don't really care. Whatever. Sorry you don't feel that you are getting what you should out of the magazine. Myself, I'm very pleased with everything they're doing and adamantly disagree with your take on the whole thing. That's all.
Personally, I think there is some element of taking the subscribers for granted in this. Not deliberate, and my reaction would be more to shrug than anything else. As a non-US subscriber, I get diddly from Paizo as my subscription isn't through them - no black dragon mini, for example (and no magazine on occasion - where the hell is my Dungeon 136?).
While I can't get worked up about it, I think someone who has subscribed to the magazine forever is maybe entitled to his say. Paizo are not a charity (and I am sure when the guy who lost his stuff a few months age got a free set from Lisa, marketing was in her mind at least partially) so I think getting into a lather on either side of the argument seems a bit pointless. But it seems slightly odd to give preferential treatment to the feckless types who have the time to go to GenCon (yeah, OK, maybe you took leave from work). And, of course, anyone attending GenCon will be overwhelmingly American - so nothing if you like D&D and happen to live on a different continent.
Maybe it all makes sense financially from a marketing perspective, and I for one want a financially healthy Paizo (and WotC). But it is slightly peeving, and Christopher isn't entirely alone, even if I can't get passionate about it.
Y'know, I wasn't a Dungeon customer before the Adventure Paths. I became interested as I heard about the first Path, and I subscribed shortly before the start of the Age of Worms path. I'm running Age of Worms at my local gaming store, bringing new folks into the hobby. I'm just starting a campaign from the Shackled City hardback with a different group.
I want to thank James for having so much information available to us so early on (the summary of Savage Tide in the most recent issue of Dungeon, and now the promise that this Player's Guide will be available to us before we even get the first adventure) and for taking the chance on a print run in order to give us an additional option (get free PDF download, or pay a nominal fee for the printed version).
I want to thank James for coming on these boards and telling us what's going on. For keeping a friendly, helpful tone when some posters become belligerent. For coming into threads where people talk about the specific adventures, or the direction of the magazine, and putting in his own two-cents-worth. For allowing us these insights into his world.
Most of all, I want to thank James for his part in creating this community joined by our shared experiences with the adventure paths that he has championed.
Consider me "Extremely Satisfied" with the direction that Dungeon Magazine has been going, and highly optimistic about its future.
It is about when you make it available to those of us not going to GenCon.It bears repeating—the info in the Savage Tide Player's Guide will be available ASAP as a PDF download to go along with the release of the first adventure in the campaign.
I actually understand Christopher's point, and I might feel the same if I was a subscriber and the situation as he described was going to occur. However, it looks like the issue has already been addressed - the overload material will be available at the same time as the adventure. Current subscribers will not be forced to start the campaign with less information than GenCon attendees.
First, some of you guys are writing hate, and I can take it. You are just as passionate about your defense of James and Paizo as I am about gaming material that should be included either in the Magazine or available in a timely manner in pdf form for free download. I won’t fault you for that or pick apart your arguments; except to say that I needed a number for my mock dialogue of the editorial table and just took 10,000 off of the top of my head, so there. I must have been right about 17 cents though, no one told me that was absurd :)
I also see that some have started to understand where I am coming from. You might not agree with the way I went about dealing with the situation, but you understand the principle behind my argument. Thank you for your support and thanks for not going nuts at a shouting match with the others. Typically, the point is lost once that kind of thing breaks out on a forum, as I am sure will happen once my critics comment on this post.
Now, to James…
I've been a reader/subscriber (and writer) to Dungeon from the start as well. I certainly hope that, going forward, I'll be able to fill the shoes of the talented folk who've run the show before me. I can only ask that you check out the next few issues and decide for yourself. I certainly regret if my tone in previous posts sounded disrespectful to our readers and subscribers—that was certainly not my intention at all.
I take nothing on faith, I’m a recovering Catholic (see, I have a sense of humor), but for as harsh and to the point as I can be in my opinions and comments I always judge others on their merits. I will be reading the next few issues with great interest to see how well the mantle has been passed and judge you on that work, because this forum and your role as Editor and Chief are two different things. I wish you luck in your new capacity.
As for the availability of the Savage Tide Player's Guide... here's the details as far as I understand them: it will be available to everyone who wants it by the time the first Savage Tide adventure is available. Issue #139 (which has the first adventure) will be getting to subscribers near the end of August, at about the time we plan on making the supplement available as a free PDF.
Now you get it. That is all I wanted, the Overload material in pdf format in a timely manner. This is not the information you shared at the beginning of this thread as indicated here:
Yes. It's called Savage Tide Player's Guide. It'll be initially available at Gen Con as a free bonus to anyone who buys or extends a subscription to either magazine, or to anyone else for five bucks. After Gen Con, whatever's left over gets sold at paizo.com for 5 bucks a pop. Once we're sold out, it'll probably go up online on our site as a PDF.
And here…
That'll be up to you to decide. If you want to start Savage Tide as soon as you get the first magazine, you'll probably want to buy the print copy. If you can wait a bit, the free download might be better.
It would be nice if I could go to GenCon and I might have, or mostly would have, sprung for a $5 version because nothing beats a physical copy in your hands; but my frustration was never about being left out of that mix or not getting one free in the mail.
It was when you had said you would not release the pdf version until ALL of the left overs were sold at paizo.com. Either I am now grateful that you have changed your mind or that it was an oversight on your part and misspoke/wrote. I suppose I could be a dink and ask you to clarify which is correct; pdf released once ALL are sold or when the first issue is released? Since you mention it being released with the first issue three times in your last post, I would assume the later.
It's worth noting that the Age of Worms Overload wasn't made available as a download until 2-3 months after the campaign began, mostly because we underestimated the work and logistics of generating all the information. So the supplementary material for Savage Tide is actually going to be more timely than the material for Age of Worms. Is it a perfect solution to spread this information over multiple articles and products? Probably not, but it's the best we can do.
Then I didn’t really miss out too much on the Age of Worms Overload section, but that too would have been nice to have from the beginning. While I was going through the Age of Worms, I loved the supplements in Dragon and thought that was all there was. It was great that there was more. I am happy to see that you have again more material for this path and that it is ready in a timely manner. Now, I am also happy that you have said it will be ready in a pdf format around the same time as the first release of the path in Dungeon.
It bears repeating—the info in the Savage Tide Player's Guide will be available ASAP as a PDF download to go along with the release of the first adventure in the campaign.
That is all I wanted.
Good luck, I await your first editorial.
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Creative Director
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It was when you had said you would not release the pdf version until ALL of the left overs were sold at paizo.com. Either I am now grateful that you have changed your mind or that it was an oversight on your part and misspoke/wrote. I suppose I could be a dink and ask you to clarify which is correct; pdf released once ALL are sold or when the first issue is released? Since you mention it being released with the first issue three times in your last post, I would assume the later.
Yup; that was a miscommunication on my part, I believe. The intent from the start was to make the Player's Guide available to everyone as a free PDF to coincide with the arrival of issue #139, which equates to about a month after Gen Con. If we sell out of the print copies before then, we might put the PDF up earlier.
In any event, my primary goal is to have the Player's Guide and the first set of Forgotten Realms and Eberron conversion notes online at roughly the same time that issue #139 comes out.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I think Erik Mona did a remarkable job considering he juggled both magazines, but he was over burdened and had a dangerous way of thinking of things at times.
I'm sorry I missed this thread until now. I can't argue that I wasn't over burdened running both magazines, but I'm very curious what you mean by "had a dangerous way of thinking of things at times."
Care to elaborate? I am dying to know. :)
--Erik
Where is Takasi when you need him?
Where is Takasi when you need him?
"But everyone on the forum was wrong that day. Takasi wasn't gone. Takasi lived on!"
"In the hearts and minds of us all?"
"No! In space! Gathering power! And every Christmas night, he returns, and that's why we all live in this giant protective dome! Ah! There he is now! Raise the shields, children!"
...ahem. Sorry. I'm feeling very silly. You're a great guy, Takasi.
Merry Christmas.
Erik Mona Wrote:
"Care to elaborate? I am dying to know. :)"
- I wouldn't pander to his ego by caring. But thats just me ;-)