SPOILERS BELOW
So we finally got to play the Whispering Cairn tonight. The intrepid adventurers consisted of:
male halfling rogue
male elf ninja
male human fighter
male human wizard
male human barbarian
male human cleric
They met in the abandoned mining office, and after brief introductions and a few surprises, headed off to the cairn. Finding it easily, they entered and found the broken portal and soon afterward were attacked by the wolves. They dispatched the wolves without much trouble (well...the barbarian pretty much did it single-handedly), healed up some of their wounds, and pressed on. After finding the indigo lantern and elven armband they proceeded to area 7. They were very cautious and searched all the hallways and decided to climb up to area 8. At least, the rogue and ninja did while the more bulky characters waited below. The rogue failed to find the trap and the two of them almost got blown away but managed to catch onto the chain and climb down before falling. They fled before the wind picked up enough to cause any damage, so they were shaken but unscathed. Next they tried moving the sarcophagus and the arcane elevator popped up. They weren't sure what to do with it and put the yellow lantern in it and then attempted to send it down by turning the sarcophagus again. This pointed it at the other elevator, and after hearing the loud cacophony the elevator broke and the skittering of the beetles began. I asked them to roll initiative and round-by-round asked them what they were doing for the 2 rounds before the beetles arrived. A couple of them started fleeing, others poured oil on the ground and others braced themselves. When the beetles burst forth one of them was fetching the yellow lantern (and the torch they'd put in it), but then the rest of them began to flee. Seeing this, the ninja (who was fetching the torch) ran after them. Of course the slasher is faster than they are and caught up with the ninja and then the others turned around to save their companion.
Swarms are tough! They had one torch to damage it and the wizard only had colour spray and cause fear. Virtually no means of hurting the swarm (they didn't think to use their lantern). They nearly smashed the slasher to bits and the swarm finished it off when it ventured too close but in the mean time, it also consumed 3 of the PCs: the rogue, barbarian, and ninja. Seeing their 3 companions eaten alive the other 3 decided discretion was the better part of valour and they fled the cairn. We role-played a bit of their drowning their sorrows at the Feral Dog and a run-in with Kullen there but decided to end for the night once they retired to bed. The other 3 players will be making new characters to act as new recruits for their party.
This encounter strikes me as one of the more difficult ones in the adventure and it is right near the beginning. I see that even in the playtest party of 8, one PC died. Looking at the EL, it is quite high for a party of 1st-level characters. What makes it worse is that they weren't at all prepared to fight swarms--no alchemist's fire, no fire spells prepared. I'm sure if they went back prepared it wouldn't be a problem for them. Oh well, maybe this will be a lesson for them: if you have 2 rounds to prepare for a likely swarm attack, co-ordinate your response in those 2 rounds!
I hope one of my players isn't too bitter, as this is the fourth halfling rogue of his who has died in one of my campaigns.
How did this encounter go for other people who have run this adventure? Did anyone have a similar experience?
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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It's probably the toughest encounter in the adventure, made more difficult by the fact that most parties seem to encounter it early. It claimed a paladin in my campaign, and has been responsible for more character deaths than anything else I've noticed on these message boards.
Bottom line: Swarms are tough. Stay the hell out of the way of swarms.
Secret Lesson: Burning hands is your friend.
--Erik
Ah...but it was totally worth it in my game. The look of sheer terror on thier faces when I described the "Geyser o' Beetles" was worth a death or two :)
I was fortunate however, noone died. Not sure why, most likely lucky rolls.
Ah...but it was totally worth it in my game. The look of sheer terror on thier faces when I described the "Geyser o' Beetles" was worth a death or two :)
I was fortunate however, noone died. Not sure why, most likely lucky rolls.
It was funny, as soon as my face turned to a look of dread and I began to describe the skittering of thousands of insects coming from below, one of the players said, "we're screwed" and another said "run!" but they all just kind of stood there and waited for them! Sometimes I just don't understand.
I, on the other hand, seem to have all the luck in the world when I'm DMing. I think the mad slasher never missed. And I never rolled less than 4 on the damage from the beetle swarm or the slasher (rolled two 8s for the slasher). If only I learned to roll like that when playing...
As far as burning hands goes, apparently at the last minute the wizard decided to switch it out for cause fear before the adventure started. Hence his enthusiastic, "Run!" when I described the beetles.
My party was all first time adventurers, and this was their 2nd encounter, so I didn't go to hard on them with the swarm. When the swarm started running for them, I told them they looked at their swords and quickly realized that they weren't going to do much good against thousands of acid beetles. Also, since I had created their characters for them and equipped them, one of the party members had alchemists fire, and 2 of them had oil. They actually figured it out for themselves, and nobody died.
My party was all first time adventurers, and this was their 2nd encounter, so I didn't go to hard on them with the swarm. When the swarm started running for them, I told them they looked at their swords and quickly realized that they weren't going to do much good against thousands of acid beetles. Also, since I had created their characters for them and equipped them, one of the party members had alchemists fire, and 2 of them had oil. They actually figured it out for themselves, and nobody died.
My party was experienced enough and had enough common sense to realize the swarm was immune to weapon damage. The problem was they were ill-prepared for the encounter and didn't really have any other ways of hurting things. I gave them maximum gold to start so they could afford things like alchemist's fire but sadly no one bought any.
Aaahhhhhgggg!!!!
So, I wrote a 2 page post about this and when I hit submit the system flaked and I got logged out and transfered to the store. So, I won't type the whole thing again. I'll just say that Swarms + Low Level PCc = High Mortality Rate. Throw in inexperienced players and you're easily looking at a TPK.
My Rule for Phobias:
If I feel DM intervention is needed to save a PC, then I usually give that PC a phobia associated with what ever would have killed them.
It usually involves a Wil Save DC10 or 12 + HD (in the case of a swarm of say any vermin they encounter in the future) or maybe the height of a drop in the case of acrophobia. Failure causes the PC to be shaken, failure of 5 or more makes the PC flee as is under the effect of a 'Fear' spell cast at a level equal to the + #.
Over the years I've had PCs with phobias against Vermin, Heights, Molds,Slimes and Fungi. One PC is starting to get a fire phobia for letting an innocent man burn to death instead of rescueing him. This one shuold be interesting...
ASEO out
Bottom line: Swarms are tough. Stay the hell out of the way of swarms.
I would think the real bottom line would be "Don't put Swarms in an easily-triggered trap in a 1st level adventure," but mabye I'm just reading too far into this.
Still, no matter how many times I read the False Tomb entry, I can't help but think that the room was INTENDED to have players accidentally trigger the trap and get slaughtered by the Swarm and the Mad Slasher.
Or, given my luck with players, decide nothing is there and go home.
I'm not sure which I'd perfer, really...
Still, no matter how many times I read the False Tomb entry, I can't help but think that the room was INTENDED to have players accidentally trigger the trap and get slaughtered by the Swarm and the Mad Slasher.
I think the encounter is a good way of making the party work as a team. My party couldn't decide whether to run or flee and failed to co-ordinate their reaction, and they suffered. They had also not bothered to prepare a variety of attack forms (alchemist's fire and area spells as well as conventional weapons). When they go back, prepared this time, they will have no trouble with the two swarms that still remain below. I have no problems running the encounter as written.
The false elevator trap, on the other hand: 2d6 damage with *no save or attack roll* and being trapped away from allies seems harsh for 1st-level characters. Good thing those clues around it are there to warn them.
Point made, QBert. I just happen to think that there's better ways to foster party unity than to kill or incapacitate half of them off at once.
I am, of course, an idealist who has also had very little expirence running games, and more, has dealt with entirely too many players made out of glass- Killing off their charachter first time out would be a wonderful way to ensure that I never see them again.
Yes, I'm bitter. I'm working on that.
(And to anyone who thinks my commentary reflects on Age of Worms: It dosen't. I have, however, deicded to wait for a few months to see where AOW is planning to go before I try to run it. If, indeed, I get to run anything at all...)
I just got done reading room 7 & 8, and thought WOW, that seems very TOUGH for a first level party. I went back just to make sure I wans't suppose to get them to 2nd level before taking a party through, and was almost shocked that this would probably be a NEW GROUPS 2nd maybe 3rd encounter. I plan to run it with only 4 people (and one is completely NOOB).
I like the idea mentioned about having a handful at a time for round one, two, and three coming out before they ERUPT outward. Have some intelligence checks for the Pc's so they can "figure out" that normal melee weapons will probably fail to get the job done.
Other than this first very difficult section the adventure seems great. Nice atmosphere, good feel, enough puzzle to engage the Pc's, but not so much that they just juse the chains holding the lamps to hang themselves in frustration. I really dug the pics and the online supplement is very SWEET!
Time to get back and read the next few rooms. I just wanted to check in on this particular enounter.
Be groovy
My party ran for the sarcoghagus and used its burning hands effect as a double edged sword. (?luckly? they set that trap off earlier?) thank goodness for the barbarians extra hit points!
Wish i read these posts earlier, I would have been more prepared for the bloodbath my players went through. Even though we had eight players, it was very nearly a TPK situation. The first problem: the party wizard had bronchitis, so no fire spells. The second problem: none of my player had played before, and it was only their second encounter...ever. The cleric went down first, bugs ate him in the first round. Oops. Low level + no healing = bad situation.
In their favor, i honestly screwed up the rules for torches. Didn't they used to do 1-6 points of fire damage? Was that in 3.0 or 1st edition? Well, they got some extra damage out of that.
Well, I didn't want to kill of the whole party in the second session of gaming (especially since it took everyone an hour or more to roll up their characters). Whenever I'm in a TPK situation and you don't want the party to die you have three options - fudge the rolls, weaken the monsters, or change the monster's intentions. I picked the first option and fudged the damage rolls for the slasher. They barely got out with three unconscious party members and one dead monk. In retrospect, I should have went with the third option and had the party wake up with 0 hp several hours later. They wouldn't know why the beetles had let them live until the eggs started hatching inside of them. Heh.
My party ran for the sarcoghagus and used its burning hands effect as a double edged sword. (?luckly? they set that trap off earlier?) thank goodness for the barbarians extra hit points!
Thats EXACTLY what my party did; they used the trap as a weapon against the swarm. While it technicaly did not do enough damage to kill the swarm, I rewarded the players for their ingenuity.
I already had to bail out my 4 players with the wolves (the paladin chick from Heironeous came and saved them) and went easy with the swarm. I had everburning torches put in all the lanterns, and they managed to use them to good effect. I will probably beef them up to 2nd level through some side adventures in town before they venture more into the Cairns..
...I had everburning torches put in all the lanterns, and they managed to use them to good effect...
Sorry to point this out, but everburning torches use continual flame, and thus create no heat.
Jack
Warning: Spoilers!
Well we got lucky. My group had played the 'Rabid Dawn' adventure with their high leel characters a few weeks before so the hellwasp swarm in that adventure aided their survival.
As an 'Old School' DM I also strictly enforce lighting conditions. This means if any humans, halflings and elves want to see in a Cairn they better bring lots of lamp oil, which came in handy.
In the distant past they have had characters run out of light, and have to grope their way out of the dungeon, and run out of food (Yum, Carniverous Ape isn't cannibalism is it?).
So anyway we had a party of 5:
Human Fighter, NG
Dwarven Fighter, LG
Elven Cleric, CG
Elven Sorcerer, CG
and a Halfling Rogue, NN
The Dwarf and human fighter killed the wolves in one round, and took the carcasses to the Bronzewood Lodge later to trade for lodging (so I need those stats soon please). They are very leery of staying in town with a competing adventuring group around sniffing for treasure.
They crashed the elevator and killed the Slasher in a lucky crit of the Dwarves War Axe. The Beetle swarm was burned...slowly with lamp oil. Then the group left to rest up.
Next day they descended into the Architechts lair, killing the eye thingie, mold and Earth Elemental. The dwarf swore he knew Terran but, *grumble grumble* took Goblin instead. Ib the Halfling has developed a phobia of floating eye balls.
Next they descended to the workers quarters, killed the beetles and avoided the fatigue room. They leveled and we stopped for the night. It's always a nice touch to stop when PCs level, thus giving them a chance to mull over their advencement choices.
It's kind of fun to play newbie characters for a change of pace.
SPOILERS BELOW
So we finally got to play the Whispering Cairn tonight. The intrepid adventurers consisted of:
male halfling rogue
male elf ninja
male human fighter
male human wizard
male human barbarian
male human clericThey met in the abandoned mining office, and after brief introductions and a few surprises, headed off to the cairn. Finding it easily, they entered and found the broken portal and soon afterward were attacked by the wolves. They dispatched the wolves without much trouble (well...the barbarian pretty much did it single-handedly), healed up some of their wounds, and pressed on. After finding the indigo lantern and elven armband they proceeded to area 7. They were very cautious and searched all the hallways and decided to climb up to area 8. At least, the rogue and ninja did while the more bulky characters waited below. The rogue failed to find the trap and the two of them almost got blown away but managed to catch onto the chain and climb down before falling. They fled before the wind picked up enough to cause any damage, so they were shaken but unscathed. Next they tried moving the sarcophagus and the arcane elevator popped up. They weren't sure what to do with it and put the yellow lantern in it and then attempted to send it down by turning the sarcophagus again. This pointed it at the other elevator, and after hearing the loud cacophony the elevator broke and the skittering of the beetles began. I asked them to roll initiative and round-by-round asked them what they were doing for the 2 rounds before the beetles arrived. A couple of them started fleeing, others poured oil on the ground and others braced themselves. When the beetles burst forth one of them was fetching the yellow lantern (and the torch they'd put in it), but then the rest of them began to flee. Seeing this, the ninja (who was fetching the torch) ran after them. Of course the slasher is faster than they are and caught up with the ninja and then the others turned around to save their companion.
Swarms are tough!...
Since my players have had some experience with swarms and living spells, they were prepared with flasks of oil, alchemical reagents, and torches. As a new DM, it might be a good idea to have an NPC from town (ran by you) go with the characters who has 'some supplies that no one else thought to bring'. This is an effective way to help the players along, without being too invasive. Also, drop hints as to the 'flamability' of the spiderwebs in the stairwell connecting areas 4 and 7. Swarms only move at 20ft, so the PC's could head for the long stairwell, and as a readied action light it up when the swarm hits. since the slasher has some intelligence the characters will have to deal with it after the flames die down.
Damn this adventure is tough!
So we played again last night. Many of the players could not make it, so the new party consisted of:
male human fighter 1
male human cleric of Heironeous 1
(these were from the original group)
male elf scout 1
male halfling rogue 1
(these were newly recruited in Diamond Lake--actually the rogue followed the group to the cairn, the scout was recruited in town).
They went back to the cairn, recovered some of the things from the bodies of the fallen PCs, and headed down the hole to the Labourer's Lair. They heard the beetles in area 16 and approached the intersection. Not being particularly stealthy, the bombardier beetle noticed them and attacked, trying to fend them off with its acid attack. The two acid beetle swarms (one from area 7, one from area 16) formed and attacked. Swarms are so incredibly nasty because, from what I can tell, they can do a 4x run and still attack, and they can attack multiple targets by shaping themselves to cover different targets. Suffice to say I was generous to allow two of the PCs to escape while the beetles feasted on the corpses of the fighter and rogue. HPK number 2.
So by now my players were frustrated, granted they weren't super-prepared with alchemist's fire and the like, so it was partially their fault knowing what they knew, but with no mage it would still have been nearly impossible for them to survive this encounter. I felt a bit guilty about this.
The two dead PCs were replaced by new characters. The new (and improved) party consisted of:
male human warlock 1
male grey elf wizard 1
male human cleric of Heironeous 1
male elf scout 1
The cleric was about to make his third foray into the cairn.
They bought alchemist's fire this time and headed straight to the beetle room (stubborn players!) This time I ruled it took a round for the beetles to form into swarms to give them a bit of extra time. They were more cautious and stayed further back, causing the bombardier to lose a round as well getting to them. A lucky eldritch blast and some alchemist's fire wiped out one swarm right away. The other swarm took longer and I had to be nice again, ruling that it went after the lone cleric it was attacking the previous round rather than swarming over all three of the other PCs. But the PCs killed this swarm and then the bombardier beetle too with only minor casualties (the wizard was unconscious). The problem was, the scout in an attempt to use his skirmish ability moved into area 17 and disturbed the other bombardier beetle, which immediately knocked out the warlock and injured the scout with an acid blast. It was about to finish off the party, knocking out the scout and wounding the cleric the next round, when I decided that it would retreat to the room and take a nap because there were no longer any PCs close to it (being fatigued and all). Another close call but I wasn't willing to kill any more characters in this encounter.
I'm expecting more players to show up next week to form a 7-strong party but...damn! A 1st-level adventure filled with EL 3 encounters has TPK written all over it. I should have anticipated this and scaled it down I think. In future I will be more careful to check the ELs before I run the adventures as written. Has anyone actually scaled this adventure down and if so, how did you do it? If all my players show up next week I may not have to but ideas for reducing Whispering Cairn's deadliness would be appreciated.
The cleric was about to make his third foray into the cairn.
is it wrong to find this quote particularly funny?
The placement of the Aventurers Wand (i.e. Burning Hands wand) in The Captain's Blade store now makes a lot of sense..
is it wrong to find this quote particularly funny?
The cleric was about to make his third foray into the cairn.
No, we all found it funny.
The placement of the Aventurers Wand (i.e. Burning Hands wand) in The Captain's Blade store now makes a lot of sense..
At 525 gp though, how in carnation can a group of inexperienced 1st-level adventurers afford it until *after* they've dealt with the beetles? I guess if they went to the Lair of the Architect first, sold the treasure they found there and then went to the Captain's Blade it would be possible. To be honest, I forgot about the shops in Diamond Lake. Did you nudge your PCs in their direction and if so, how did you do it?
My party nearly suffered a HPK as well--the wolves nearly did them in. They've limped back to Diamond Lake to buy healing potions, or kiss up to the adherents of the Silver Flame for some free healing.
I haven't set the beetles on them yet. Where are the swarm rules, BTW? I'm trying to find them, but can't. I've never run a swarm afore.
Where are the swarm rules, BTW? I'm trying to find them, but can't. I've never run a swarm afore.
MM pg. 237 and pg. 315.
Cheers, dizzyk. I was going through the DMG in futility.
Yes -- the sheer volume of rules we need in this game (and number of places we need to look for them) is dizzying.
Jack
overworked DM :P
Yes -- the sheer volume of rules we need in this game (and number of places we need to look for them) is dizzying.
Seriously. :-)
Say, Kid Dork - If, perchance, you haven't been keeping up on the AoW boards lately, there have also been a LOT of helpful posts about what DMs have done with the swarms (and what actions their PLAYERS have tried, so you know what to expect) that will really give you some ideas. As you'll read (or have already read), swarms can be extremely devastating to low-level parties. I've found that *not* skimping on the "horrifyingly scary" factor while describing them has helped to clue my players into digging that "this ain't just a bunch of harmless bugs."
My party was able to afford the wand pre cairn exploration as I ran a few sub-quests before hand:
One of my players is playing a female half-elven rogue with 18 charisma..of course the bluff/intimdate/diplomacy skills got maxed..so she wound up negotiating a cheaper price..
and the other characters wound up doing all kinds of odd jobs as well to earn some cash. I'm not talking Baldurs Gate prologue type mindless tasks, but more like the fighter who was attached to the garrison had to go out and hunt some bandits with a few men and they got to finders feee from the merchant for recovery of some ale casks as well as selling off some low grade bandit weapons, meanwhile the ranger sold a boar to the restuarant and the other rogue was gambling - I think the fighter brought in the most cash. Mind you, even with all that they didn't have the best armour but they wanted to make sure they had some cure light wound potions and the wand.
It seems these swarms are giving everyone a bit of difficulty. My group did just fine. Our first session we did a lot of roleplaying in town (~4 hrs. game time) then they finally formed a team to head to the Cairn (this was a long session btw). They cleared out the first level and the architect's place before staring dumbfounded at the grinding, creaking, and moaning of the cylinder under the green lantern before it exploded in a burst of beetles. The goliath barbarian clubbed the mad slasher and then the group beat a hasty retreat, not having grenadelike weapons or area-effect spells. (I consider it rather unlikely that swarms can run. I really can't see beetles chasing down a creature as large as a human or a halfling.)
The wizard, being a former apprentice of Allustan, asked if he could copy burning hands into his spell book. Allustan now treats him as a fellow wizard and not an apprentice, so he told him he would allow him to do so for the standard fee of 10 gp, which he gladly paid. The other PCs went to the General Store to buy some acid. Loaded up, they headed back. I decided after failing to catch the party, the acid beetle swarm moved back down into the room with the others. Thus my party fought two acid beetle swarms and a giant bombadier beetle at the same time. But they made out just fine. No one even went unconscious.
I'm not a soft-ball DM either. I told the players at the outset of this campaign that I wasn't going to fudge a single die roll, and thus far I haven't. I also play my monsters to the full extent of their intelligent. In the case of beetle swarms this means going for the nearest standing foe and chomping down so the party has had little difficulty taking advantage of that situation.
I don't think the swarms are bad at all. I think the problem some groups are having is twofold. 1) Swarms that are played as moderately intelligent creatures (i.e. discriminating between more dangerous targets or spreading out to maximize damage area) quickly become far more challenging than their CR suggests and 2) sometimes the party just doesn't understand the better part of valor; i.e. don't stand and fight if you can't win.
Personally, as a player, I never have trouble with swarms because I play wizards almost exclusively and I always prepare lots of area effect spells specifically to deal with them. It only took one encounter with them (when 3.5 came out) for me to realize the importance of being able to deal with them at all levels.
