The thing is, even if this one FINALLY comes out -- well, it was supposed to be the last one, but now he's saying there will be, what, at least 3 more after it? Which means another 20 years before the series can be finished, at the rate he's going? And look at the guy -- not to be heartless, but I think the concern is legitimate -- will he live another 20 years?
I think that if anyone ever finishes the series, it'll be HBO, not GRRM.
The thing is, even if this one FINALLY comes out -- well, it was supposed to be the last one, but now he's saying there will be, what, at least 3 more after it? Which means another 20 years before the series can be finished, at the rate he's going? And look at the guy -- not to be heartless, but I think the concern is legitimate -- will he live another 20 years?
I think that if anyone ever finishes the series, it'll be HBO, not GRRM.
I see where you are coming from, but I'm thinking he may actually be working on the third book right now(i.e. the next to last one)- I fear a lot of his work on this series is actually tied up in editing. Didn't he originally A Feast For Crows and A Dance With Dragons to be one book and his request was denied or something?
I know I'm going to wait until the series is complete before reading more of it. Then in 2021 or so, I will re-read the first 4 and read the final 3 or however many there are by then for the first time.
I know Neil Gaiman insists that GRRM is not our b*%$!, but we pay for his services, which means he works for us, and if he keeps having vast periods of time between publications, he can wait a decade or two before he gets my money.
I see where you are coming from, but I'm thinking he may actually be working on the third book right now(i.e. the next to last one)- I fear a lot of his work on this series is actually tied up in editing. Didn't he originally A Feast For Crows and A Dance With Dragons to be one book and his request was denied or something?The thing is, even if this one FINALLY comes out -- well, it was supposed to be the last one, but now he's saying there will be, what, at least 3 more after it? Which means another 20 years before the series can be finished, at the rate he's going? And look at the guy -- not to be heartless, but I think the concern is legitimate -- will he live another 20 years?
I think that if anyone ever finishes the series, it'll be HBO, not GRRM.
Knowing George and knowing other authors with similar situations (Katharine Kerr with the Deverry series, for example) I believe what's happened is that material that was intended for this upcoming book was written but then bumped into the next book after. That said, I can't say for certain because I'm certain even George himself can't say for certain--You don't know until you're done where all the parts will go, which scenes will have to be cut, and which scenes will be cut but bumped into a future book.
And speaking to the past, this already happened with the Wild Cards series--Ace in the Hole and Dead Man's Hand were originally written as one book, but it was too long, so George and John J. Miller's sections were split out as a separate book that became Dead Man's Hand.
I know Neil Gaiman insists that GRRM is not our b&!~@, but we pay for his services, which means he works for us, and if he keeps having vast periods of time between publications, he can wait a decade or two before he gets my money.
No, you pay for the product he has already provided which is separate from any future product he may offer.
Gaiman was absolutely right.
Personally, I don't care how long it takes GRRM to publish a book. Even if he never finishes ASoIaF the quality of each individual book is so much greater than the entirety of other fantasy series I could name that I'm well satisfied. I'd far rather he took five years to finish a fantastic novel than spin out dreck each year.
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The thing is, even if this one FINALLY comes out -- well, it was supposed to be the last one, but now he's saying there will be, what, at least 3 more after it? Which means another 20 years before the series can be finished, at the rate he's going? And look at the guy -- not to be heartless, but I think the concern is legitimate -- will he live another 20 years?
I think that if anyone ever finishes the series, it'll be HBO, not GRRM.
There are two more after this one comes out this year. As far as I can tell from his blog, he's got around 100 pages of material for the next book already written, because he decided not to include certain characters in Dance. That said, I share your fear that HBO or someone else will wind up finishing the series in the end.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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There are two more after this one comes out this year. As far as I can tell from his blog, he's got around 100 pages of material for the next book already written, because he decided not to include certain characters in Dance. That said, I share your fear that HBO or someone else will wind up finishing the series in the end.
He also claimed this latest book was "nearly done" when he finished the last one. I hope he has his enthusiasm together to finish it - I don't think he'll make it 12-18 more years if he stays on the current pace (I'm expecting 3 more books, not 2).
I know Neil Gaiman insists that GRRM is not our b&!~@, but we pay for his services, which means he works for us, and if he keeps having vast periods of time between publications, he can wait a decade or two before he gets my money.No, you pay for the product he has already provided which is separate from any future product he may offer.
Gaiman was absolutely right.
Personally, I don't care how long it takes GRRM to publish a book. Even if he never finishes ASoIaF the quality of each individual book is so much greater than the entirety of other fantasy series I could name that I'm well satisfied. I'd far rather he took five years to finish a fantastic novel than spin out dreck each year.
I'm still going to wait. I don't want to get invested in characters and cliffhangers that never get resolved.
It's like watching three-quarters of a movie and not finding out how it ended. No thank you.
The thing is, even if this one FINALLY comes out -- well, it was supposed to be the last one, but now he's saying there will be, what, at least 3 more after it? Which means another 20 years before the series can be finished, at the rate he's going? And look at the guy -- not to be heartless, but I think the concern is legitimate -- will he live another 20 years?
I think that if anyone ever finishes the series, it'll be HBO, not GRRM.
A DANCE WITH DRAGONS was never supposed to be the last book in the series. Even before he split A FEAST FOR CROWS there was going to be six books (with ADWD as the fifth), and the split and the movement of some AFFC chapters into ADWD and the resulting timeline chaos has expanded it to seven. The next one is THE WINDS OF WINTER and the final one is A DREAM OF SPRING (which I hope he changes, as that name is a bit fluffy for this series).
He also claimed this latest book was "nearly done" when he finished the last one.
If you look at the infamous 'Note' you see that he actually says it's, "Not anywhere near done." Which of course made it really unwise to then suggest (in the same paragraph!) he might be able to have the book finished within a year.
But the notion that ADWD was complete or even nearly completed when AFFC was handed to the publisher is incorrect. He even told us on his website that ADWD, as he envisaged it, was about one-third complete at that time which, especially after the AFFC situation, made the suggestion he could get ADWD out the following year even more unlikely.
It's like watching three-quarters of a movie and not finding out how it ended. No thank you.
Not unless the movie was three weeks long ;-) It's more akin to watching STAR WARS and EMPIRE, then George Lucas drops dead before making JEDI. Does the fact there will never be a JEDI invalidate the quality of the first two films on their own terms? I don't think so. EDWIN DROOD is still interesting despite being unfinished, the same for THE SILMARILLION and all the incomplete Tolkien narratives in UNFINISHED TALES.
Does the fact there will never be a JEDI invalidate the quality of the first two films on their own terms? I don't think so. EDWIN DROOD is still interesting despite being unfinished, the...
That's the way I look at it too. I'm reading a book or a series of books for the journey, not the destination. If I said I was never going to play in an RPG campaign unless I could be absolutely certain the campaign was going to be completed, I'd spend a lot of my life just waiting around with unrolled dice and never played characters.
If not reading "A Song of Ice and Fire" until it was finished meant that I'd never have had the opportunity to read "A Game of Thrones" or "A Storm of Swords", I'm the one who would have missed out, not GRRM. Both books were too freaking good to have missed.
George's editor holding the manuscript for A Dance with Dragons.
That's pretty big. And the hardcover should be about half as thick, considering the MS is single-paged. That's still massive.
DeJesus Christus! That gotta be half the Amazon Rainforest there!
That's the way I look at it too. I'm reading a book or a series of books for the journey, not the destination. If I said I was never going to play in an RPG campaign unless I could be absolutely certain the campaign was going to be completed, I'd spend a lot of my life just waiting around with unrolled dice and never played characters.
If not reading "A Song of Ice and Fire" until it was finished meant that I'd never have had the opportunity to read "A Game of Thrones" or "A Storm of Swords", I'm the one who would have missed out, not GRRM. Both books were too freaking good to have missed.
+1. I would much rather have ADWD be well and truly completed and never see another Song of Ice and Fire book than to have GRRM finish the series in the slapdash manner that Stephen King did with the Dark Tower series.
+1. I would much rather have ADWD be well and truly completed and never see another Song of Ice and Fire book than to have GRRM finish the series in the slapdash manner that Stephen King did with the Dark Tower series.That's the way I look at it too. I'm reading a book or a series of books for the journey, not the destination. If I said I was never going to play in an RPG campaign unless I could be absolutely certain the campaign was going to be completed, I'd spend a lot of my life just waiting around with unrolled dice and never played characters.
If not reading "A Song of Ice and Fire" until it was finished meant that I'd never have had the opportunity to read "A Game of Thrones" or "A Storm of Swords", I'm the one who would have missed out, not GRRM. Both books were too freaking good to have missed.
This. A thousand and one times this.
I would much rather have ADWD be well and truly completed and never see another Song of Ice and Fire book than to have GRRM finish the series in the slapdash manner that Stephen King did with the Dark Tower series.
And, interestingly, he did that specifically because of a roadside accident and the Robert Jordan example staring him in the face. But, yeah, all of SoS, and the second half of TDT, would have benefitted GREATLY from about 10 more years of work.
George's editor holding the manuscript for A Dance with Dragons.
That's pretty big. And the hardcover should be about half as thick, considering the MS is single-paged. That's still massive.
The trully funny thing is if he was a beginning writer no editor would ever read through that.
I guess the key is write short stories or very short novels that can be made into trilogies..and then when the houses know your stuff, you can indulge yourself.
Sorry, must be channelling memories of Goodkind. I know that every page of that stack is going to be the best thing I have read in 5 years.
And, interestingly, he did that specifically because of a roadside accident and the Robert Jordan example staring him in the face.
All seven books of THE DARK TOWER were in print three years before Robert Jordan passed away, more than one year before he was diagnosed with his illness, so I'm not sure where that idea comes from.
But, yeah, all of SoS, and the second half of TDT, would have benefitted GREATLY from about 10 more years of work.
THE DARK TOWER - or rather the last three books - would certainly have done. A STORM OF SWORDS is the best book in ASoIaF, however, and easily one of the very best individual epic fantasy novels ever published, so I'm not sure what more could have been done to improve it.
One thing about this series is that we KNOW what is going to happen, just not how. If you dispute this, read it again and think a bit about it.
One thing about this series is that we KNOW what is going to happen, just not how. If you dispute this, read it again and think a bit about it.
We don't KNOW but we can make some educated guesses. Whether those guesses turn out to be right or not remains to be seen.
For example, standard narrative logic tells us that Daenerys will become Queen and Jon Snow will defeat the Others with whatever intelligence Bran (beyond the Wall) and Sam (in the Citadel) uncover. However, standard narrative logic in Book 1 told us that Ned Stark was the hero and would be around for the duration ;-)
Anyone else besides me hoping that if the HBO series is a hit it will modivate GRRM to write quicker?
Nope.
However, standard narrative logic in Book 1 told us that Ned Stark was the hero and would be around for the duration ;-)
Exactly. Which, incidentally, is part of what I love about the series in the first place.
But, yeah, all of SoS, and the second half of TDT, would have benefitted GREATLY from about 10 more years of work.THE DARK TOWER - or rather the last three books - would certainly have done. A STORM OF SWORDS is the best book in ASoIaF, however, and easily one of the very best individual epic fantasy novels ever published, so I'm not sure what more could have been done to improve it.
SoS = Song of Susannah. TDT = The Dark Tower (the novel, not the series; Wolves of the Callah I found largely above reproach).
Just passed by the HBO store in Times Square yesterday on the way to the Black Party. A fellow geek at the Complete Strat(and a *cute* one at that!) told me they had the AGOT display up. Here are some pics. Unfortunately they did not let me take pictures in the store- they had the Hound's helmet on display(and they did an AMAZING job!!!), and Renly's armor as well.
Tyrion is my favourite character, whilst Oberyn Martell was pretty cool. For some reason I'm also fond of Tormund Giantsbane for some reason. Probably as he's one of the few wildling chieftains who isn't a total prat.
SoS = Song of Susannah
Oh yeah :-)
I have so many things set before me, I really don't worry about the next ASoIF book and whether is will be released soon or late.
A healthy attitude. You do know that the next book is out in July anyway though? :-)
However, standard narrative logic in Book 1 told us that Ned Stark was the hero and would be around for the duration ;-)Exactly. Which, incidentally, is part of what I love about the series in the first place.
Agreed. The fact that A Song of Ice and Fire ignores or subverts so many tropes is one of the series's strongest points. No Plot Armour, no Truth is Beauty, no anything else. (Look it up on tvtropes, the series has its own page with a huge list of tropes associated with it, mostly by NOT using them.) Keeps you on your toes.
"How will the hero survive" becomes "Will the hero survive". Utterly refreshing.
I hate to think of the characters in terms of favorites, but I think it's probably Arya followed by Tyrion and during SoS I found myself falling for the Dany chapters more and more.
I love this series. Best I've ever read. It never feels like a chore to read it unlike some other stories I've read. (Felt that way with the Dune series more than once)
Who's the ugly female fighter? She's my favorite (after Khal Drogo, of course). The Hound is also pretty cool.
Tyrion is waaaaaay too "angsty" for me.
My favorite was intially Bran..gotta root for the little guy!
but as series went on I found I switched to more unusual characters..
for example, Samwell Tarly..Or the onion smuggler..
But of course my favorite now is Tyrion..the man's ability to survive is amazing.
Those of you who live in New York City might be interested that the HBO Store on Sixth Avenue has a load of costumes and props from the series on display.
Those of you who live in New York City might be interested that the HBO Store on Sixth Avenue has a load of costumes and props from the series on display.
*ahem*
I can't believe they wouldnt' let me take pictures of the Hound's helmet!!!!!!!
Off Topic:
Freehold DM- Where do you live? I work at the Empire State Building and visit Complete Strategist every few weeks.Back on Topic:
Kirth you are thinking of Brienne, she is probably my favorite as well.
I live in Brooklyn. Where are you? I love going to the strat, I go there every few weeks myself just to see what's up.
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Those of you who live in New York City might be interested that the HBO Store on Sixth Avenue has a load of costumes and props from the series on display.
Sweet I will be in NYC in a couple of weeks. I will check it out.
*puts on flame proof suit* I'm going to see the Spider Man Musical.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Like several others here, I'm very happy to wait. Let him take his time and write the best stuff he can write. In the meantime, I have so many things set before me, I really don't worry about the next ASoIF book and whether is will be released soon or late.
Out of curiousity- who are your favorite characters?
My favorite is Arya Stark. I'm pretty fond of the Onion Knight, as well.
I think Dany and Barristan the Bold are probably atop my list.
Of the northerly minor characters, I was a big fan of Tywin Lannister (at one point I said he was the kind of arrogant bastard that Denethor wants to be when he grows up, though rereading LotR I think Denethor holds up pretty well, with a touch more insanity of course)... as a villain, of course... also, Bronn and Varys of the minor characters.
Of the main ones, I suppose Jon, Tyrion, and Arya have had the most interesting storylines, but the characters that I initially really disliked but have found myself surprised at becoming much more interested in their stories are Stannis Baratheon and, of all people, Sansa (if only to figure out WTF Littlefinger's real game is or will be - he is certainly working to clear out the deadwood of annoying characters in the series).
So, to cut it down to major POV characters, probably:
1. Dany
2. Tyrion (and will he turn more good or more evil from here)
3. Jon
4. Arya
5. Stannis (is a jerkass, crazy, or really fated to do something great)
6. Sansa
I was just in NYC a week ago and missed the HBO display by less than a week. Cruel fate!
I used to live in Brooklyn myself and always stop by the Strat when I'm back in town.
Anyway, my favorite characters are Tyrion and Arya. Jaime has been rapidly approaching their ranks, however, to my vast surprise (another great thing about the novels).
That's the word. ;)
A healthy attitude. You do know that the next book is out in July anyway though? :-)
Well, the editor's got the manuscript (or 99% of it anyway) and is confident enough of the date to show it off. Not to mention that the publishers have just dropped several hundred thousand dollars on a huge advertising campaign for it. I imagine they wouldn't do that unless they were 100% certain of hitting the date.
Oh man, I forgot about Littlefinger. I never thought of non-POV's, but Littlefinger is probably my favorite of those and the only reason the Sansa chapters aren't "I'm gonna take a break" moments anymore.
Man, I wish I could read the series for the first time again =( so good.
I liked Littlefinger too, until he went all creepy with that Sansa thing. I wonder is his name a pun? Like Shorteyes for child molesters.
I give it up for Brienne of Tarth for being truly original.
I'm a big fan of Arya and she does seem to have the best storylines.
Who am I kidding; they are all good!
Except for Samwell. I hate hearing his bleating and whining. I liked the scene where he met Arya in Braavos though. Direwolf describes her to a tee.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Of the northerly minor characters, I was a big fan of Tywin Lannister (at one point I said he was the kind of arrogant bastard that Denethor wants to be when he grows up, though rereading LotR I think Denethor holds up pretty well, with a touch more insanity of course)... as a villain, of course... also, Bronn and Varys of the minor characters.
Threadjack...
I always liked Denethor. I felt Denethor served as an example of what became of men who wrestled with Sauron, while Theodain of the lesser evil of Saruman. Theodain could be saved, Denethor was lost.
Peter Jackson pretty clearly did not read the same book as me where Denethor was concerned, since he turned him into a petulant child and carefully excised any scene that gave his madness context.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Of the northerly minor characters, I was a big fan of Tywin Lannister (at one point I said he was the kind of arrogant bastard that Denethor wants to be when he grows up, though rereading LotR I think Denethor holds up pretty well, with a touch more insanity of course)... as a villain, of course... also, Bronn and Varys of the minor characters.
Threadjack...
I always liked Denethor. I felt Denethor served as an example of what became of men who wrestled with Sauron, while Theodain of the lesser evil of Saruman. Theodain could be saved, Denethor was lost.
Peter Jackson pretty clearly did not read the same book as me where Denethor was concerned, since he turned him into a petulant child and carefully excised any scene that gave his madness context.
In the books, Denethor is an arrogant old man who thinks he knows better than everyone else.
In the movies, Denethor is ONLY an arrogant old man who thinks he knows better than everyone else. We never really see his nobility, strength of will, or keen intellect. We don't see that he has been striving with the will of Sauron for so long that his heart has turned to stone.
We also never see the Minas Tirith palantir, and that is really the keystone to understanding why and how Denethor has become the way he is, since we've already seen "on-screen" the harsh influence of the Orthanc-stone on Saruman and on Pippin *and* on Aragorn (he looks into the stone in chapter 2 of RotK at the Hornburg, and Legolas and Gimli comment on how he looks like he's aged a decade from the struggle of it, and Aragorn himself tells how exhausted he was just by wrestling mentally with Sauron *once*.
It's not just that Denethor is a tired old man who is worn down with care and depression over his lost son. He's been using the palantir for DECADES. Small wonder that he's still alive and mostly sane. All that is left of him is sheer will and determination to endure, and really it's only when Faramir is "killed" that he finally snaps. Why continue to endure when he has NOTHING left, not even a remnant?
He *is* kind of a dick to Gandalf, as pride makes him want to put Gandalf in his place and "not get pushed around" by this outsider, but in the books you get the impression he's doing his best to keep things together. In the movies, he just comes off as a jerkass and pretty much the worst father in the world.
"Trouble me not with Faramir. I know his uses, and they are few."
Ouch.
So, agreed; he got kind of a raw deal in his screen treatment. But he was pretty much of an arrogant jerk in the book as well... kind of like TYWIN LANNISTER! :)
Threadjack over...
Alright thread, you've convinced me, I'll give the books a shot.
I'm just coming down off the month long glow that is "The Name of the Wind" and "A Wise Man's Fears" by Patrick Rothfuss, and nothing else has held my interest much since I read those so hopefully this will grab me.
I liked Littlefinger too, until he went all creepy with that Sansa thing. I wonder is his name a pun? Like Shorteyes for child molesters.
I give it up for Brienne of Tarth for being truly original.
I'm a big fan of Arya and she does seem to have the best storylines.
Who am I kidding; they are all good!
Except for Samwell. I hate hearing his bleating and whining. I liked the scene where he met Arya in Braavos though. Direwolf describes her to a tee.
I thought Sansa was an adult in the Westerosi sense by the time she debuted in the novels...I'll have to look back.
I think Sansa was around 13-14 in the novel around that time. I can understand marriages of conveinences in regards to joining noble blood, but Littlefinger puts the move on Sansa through attraction. It might have been "appropiate" in the day but just damn creepy thinking about it. We know Littlefinger had the hots for Catelyn, which makes this even more weird. Why even go there?
Regardless if it is not frowned upon at the time, how would you like a grown man kissing your thirteen year old daughter?
Yikes!!!
I think Sansa was around 13-14 in the novel around that time. I can understand marriages of conveinences in regards to joining noble blood, but Littlefinger puts the move on Sansa through attraction. It might have been "appropiate" in the day but just damn creepy thinking about it. We know Littlefinger had the hots for Catelyn, which makes this even more weird. Why even go there?
Regardless if it is not frowned upon at the time, how would you like a grown man kissing your thirteen year old daughter?
Yikes!!!
I'd agree on the whole, but Westeros isn't our world by any stretch of the imagination. In fact as a species(and I stress, as a *species*), it's been therorized that we are facing a population problem forecasts possibly because we're finding our young women unappealing at an age when they are more likely to survive multiple child births over a long period of time. That said, Sansa also seems to be a practical clone of her mother- she got very little of the Stark look. Sure, it's a little creepy, but I can see him being attracted to her, even though I certainly wouldn't be on several levels.