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I love the Legendary Ninja and I love the Akashic system, so I wanted to see whether I could combine the two. This archetype stole some stuff from the Vigilante's Masked Veilweaver archetype, swaps out spellcasting for Eclipse veilweaving, and leans heavily on custom ninja tricks and abusing the Dual Enhanced Veils feat. It also tries to address my frustration with akashic veils only giving limited weapon options - I can't believe there's still no option to change the weapons you can create with your veils. Anyway, I'm mostly happy with it, but I'm also kinda worried I got overly excited and crammed too much stuff in here. Also, I want it to be compatible with other Legendary Ninja archetypes but I have the vague suspicion it needs to give more up for the amount of veilweaving it gets, even though losing spellcasting is a really big deal. Any thoughts? Advice? Suggestions to stop relying on Wikipedia so much?

Veiled Ninja (archetype)

Veilweaving
A veiled ninja learns to shape the magical power known as akasha into powerful veils, which are drawn from the eclipse veil list. They know and can shape any veil from this list. The veiled ninja uses their Charisma as their veilweaving modifier, and has a veilweaving level equal to their class level. The saving throw DCs of the veiled ninja’s veils are equal to 10 + the essence invested in the veil + the veiled ninja’s veilweaving modifier.
The veiled ninja can only shape a limited number of veils per day. They can shape 1 veil at 1st level, and gain the ability to shape 1 additional veil each day at 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level.
This replaces the ninja's cantrips and spells class features. This does not make it incompatible with other archetypes that alter the ninja's cantrips or spells class features, so long as they still have such abilities to give up.

Essence pool
At 1st level, the veiled ninja gains access to a pool of essence which can be invested into their veils and other essence receptacles to increase their power. This pool of essence contains 1 point of essence at each class level. A veiled ninja also burns essence to power their secret techniques, and can restore essence burn in the following ways (each of these methods can only recover a single point of essence per round per method).
Dirty Trick: Whenever the veiled ninja successfully uses the dirty trick combat maneuver against a hostile creature, they recover 1 point of essence burn. Using a dirty trick on a helpless creature or on a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the ninja’s character level does not restore essence burn.
Finishing Blow: Whenever the veiled ninja reduces a hostile creature to 0 or fewer hit points, they recover 1 point of essence burn. Destroying an unattended object, reducing a helpless creature to 0 or fewer hit points, or reducing a creature to 0 or fewer hit points that has fewer Hit Dice than half the veiled ninja’s character level to 0 or fewer hit points does not restore essence burn.
Strike from the Shadows: Whenever the veiled ninja deals damage to a hostile creature who is unaware of their presence (such as due to invisibility), they recover 1 point of essence burn. Dealing damage to a helpless creature or a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the veiled ninja’s character level who is unaware of the veiled ninja’s presence does not restore essence burn.
This replaces the ninja's jutsu pool class feature, but does not make it incompatible with other archetypes that alter the ninja's jutsu pool class feature, such as the yokai scion. In these cases, alternate ways of gaining jutsu instead restore essence burn.

Secret techniques
A ninja can burn the listed number of essence points to activate secret techniques. Secret techniques which require 0 jutsu points are active as long as the ninja has 1 or more essence points in their essence pool.
This modifies the ninja's secret techniques class feature, but does not make it incompatible with other archetypes that replace specific secret techniques.

Boryaku
The veiled ninja gains Dual Enhanced Veils as a bonus feat. The veiled ninja treats veils with the [darkness] descriptor as though they had the [enhanced] descriptor for purposes of this feat.
This ability replaces the ninja's fount of magic and speed casting secret techniques.

Chakra Binds
At 3rd level and every three levels thereafter, the veiled ninja gains the ability to bind veils directly to their chakra, unlocking potent new abilities. The veiled ninja gains the ability to bind slots in the following order: Hands, Feet, Head, Wrists, Shoulders, and Belt.

Improved Essence Capacity
The veiled ninja’s continued use of their veils have improved their ability to invest them with essence. At 3rd, 9th, and 15th level the maximum essence capacity of all of their essence receptacles increases by 1.
This replaces the ninja's combat jutsu class feature.

Disguise Veil
When using the disguise veil secret technique, a veiled ninja's veils are easier to hide. Veils invested with 0 essence cannot be detected by detect magic, true seeing, or similar effects while the veiled ninja is under the effects of this secret technique. Investing a disguised veil immediately reveals its magical nature, and allows it to be detected by the above effects, as normal.
This modifies the ninja's disguise veil secret technique.

Veiled ninja Master
The veiled ninja treats all of the veils on their veil list as being stored in their Dual Enhanced Veils feat, and can swap between them by burning 1 essence as a move action.
This replaces the ninja's ninja master class feature.

Incompatible ninja tricks: Combat Medic, Expert preparations, Expert preparations, greater, Spell savant

New ninja tricks:
Anma: The veiled ninja adds Heal as a class skill, and adds immaculate touch to their veil list. Immaculate touch is treated as always being stored in their Dual Enhanced Veils feat despite not being an [enhanced] veil. This does not prevent the veiled ninja from storing an [enhanced] veil in this feat, as normal.

Bajutsu: The veiled ninja adds Handle Animal and Ride as class skills, and adds horselord's greaves to their veil list. Horselord's greaves is treated as always being stored in their Dual Enhanced Veils feat despite not being an [enhanced] veil. This does not prevent the veiled ninja from storing an [enhanced] veil in this feat, as normal.

Bojutsu: The veiled ninja adds staff of ten thousand truths and thunder's kindness to their veil list. In addition, the veiled ninja treats the quarterstaff as though it possessed the trip quality and they treat each end of the quarterstaff as a light weapon for purposes of the Two-weapon Fighting and Weapon Finesse feats.

Exotic Binds: The veiled ninja chooses a single one of the following chakra slots and gains the ability to bind veils to it at the indicated level: Headband (14th), Neck (16th), Chest (20th), Body (20th). This ninja trick can be selected multiple times, granting a new chakra bind each time it is selected.

Intonjutsu: The veiled ninja treats stalker's tabi as always being stored in their Dual Enhanced Veils feat despite not being an [enhanced] veil, and can swap this veil with an [enhanced] veil without burning a point of essence. This does not prevent the veiled ninja from storing another [enhanced] veil in this feat, as normal.

Kayakujutsu: The veiled ninja gains proficiency with firearms and the Gunsmithing feat as a bonus feat. In addition, when using veils with the [enhanced (weapon)] descriptor that create ranged projectile weapons, the veiled ninja can instead choose to create any firearm of equivalent handedness (one-handed or two-handed). This choice is made when the veiled ninja shapes their veils for the day, but can be changed by burning a point of essence as a full-round action. Such veils can be enhanced with any magic weapon abilities appropriate for a ranged weapon or firearm.

Kenjutsu: When using veils with the [enhanced (weapon)] descriptor that create weapons from the heavy blade or light blade weapon groups, the veiled ninja can instead choose to create a katana or wakizashi. The veiled ninja can use their Dexterity in place of their Strength when attacking with a katana or wakizashi created by a veil. Such veils can be enhanced with any magic weapon abilities appropriate to a slashing melee weapon.

Kusarigamajutsu: When using veils with the [enhanced (weapon)] descriptor that create weapons from the double or flail weapon groups, the veiled ninja can instead choose to create a kusarigama. The veiled ninja treats each end of the kusarigama as a light weapon, and can freely remove or apply the reach quality as a free action even when it is not their turn. When using the kusarigama to trip a creature, the veiled ninja gains a +2 bonus on the attempt and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. At 4th level, the veiled ninja treats the critical threat range of the kusarigama as 18-20/x2. This trick counts as having Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of feats which require Improved Trip as a prerequisite.

Martial Veilweaving: Whenever the veiled ninja wields a weapon produced by a veil with the [enhanced (weapon)] descriptor, they may use their class level in place of their base attack bonus when making attacks with that weapon. This replacement of their base attack bonus also applies to feats used with those attacks (such as Power Attack) and when qualifying for feats that use base attack bonus as a prerequisite. They may only use those feats with weapons produced by an [enhance (weapon)] veil unless their natural base attack bonus is high enough to meet the feat’s prerequisites.

Naginatajutsu: When using veils with the [enhanced (weapon)] descriptor that create weapons from the heavy blades or polearm weapon groups, the veiled ninja can instead choose to create a naginata. The veiled ninja can use their Dexterity in place of their Strength when attacking with a naginata. In addition, whenever they are wielding a weapon created by an [enhanced] feat, the veiled ninja is treated as knowing a Piercing Thunder stance for purposes of qualifying for the Piercing Thunder Style feat.

Shurikenjutsu: The veiled ninja treats halo of Polaris as always being stored in their Dual Enhanced Veils feat, and can swap this veil with an [enhanced] veil without burning a point of essence. This does not prevent the veiled ninja from storing another [enhanced] veil in this feat, as normal.

Sojutsu: The veiled ninja adds Gungnir and loyal paladin's spear of light to their veil list. The veiled ninja can use their Dexterity in place of their Strength when attacking with a weapon from the spear weapon group. In addition, whenever they are wielding a weapon created by an [enhanced] feat, the veiled ninja is treated as knowing a Piercing Thunder stance for purposes of qualifying for the Piercing Thunder Style feat.

Taijutsu: The veiled ninja treats still waters, clear skies as always being stored in their Dual Enhanced Veils feat, and can swap this veil with an [enhanced] veil without burning a point of essence. This does not prevent the veiled ninja from storing another [enhanced] veil in this feat, as normal.

Tenmon: The veiled ninja gains Shape Storm as a bonus feat. They must meed the prerequisites for this feat. Unlike the normal feat, the veiled ninja gains access to a number of storm veils equal to their Charisma modifier and may change which storm veil they are using at the beginning of their turn by burning 2 points of essence as a free action. Storm veils chosen must include the Air, Cold, Earth, Electricity, or Water descriptors. If the veiled ninja gains a permanent increase to their Charisma modifier, they add new veils to their veil list retroactively using this ability. If that permanent increase is later lost, they lose those veils. If it is regained, they gain the same veils they chose the first time.

Thanks :)

I'm playing around with the Rogue skill trick list, updating it for myself with the new Kirthfinder levels and adding some stuff. What are your general guidelines for what gets included and what doesn't? I'm mostly going by gut feel right now. In a lot of ways the Rogue feels like the 3.5 Warlock--their buffs are almost all self-only and they have a lot of charms, sensory and movement abilities, skill boosters, and miscellaneous utility and telekinetic effects; their combat-related skill tricks, however, are basically focused on enemy debuffs and ways to make sneak attacking easier/stronger as opposed to granting new damage options. It seems like they shouldn't have flashy magical abilities--summons and major conjuration effects, gross polymorph spells, and pew-pew evocations are all (mostly) excluded, but other areas (and some evocations, actually) are less clear. Craft (Alchemy) could honestly include a lot of acid and fire spells, Handle Animal and Survival could include a bunch of stuff in the Druid's wheelhouse, and the Endurance and Heal skill tricks could thematically include basically every cure and condition relieving spell, but a lot of these feel kinda wrong for some reason. Like, could a rogue choose Breath of Life or Cleanse as a 5th level Heal skill trick? They've got Fog Cloud and Sound Burst as apparent analogues of smokesticks and thunderstones, so would Acid Splash be an acceptable analogue of an acid flask? How about Melf's Acid Arrow or Orb of Acid? Similarly, what about Scorching Ray, Fire Shuriken, Fire Seeds, or Fireball as dramatic extrapolations of alchemist's fire?

You may be looking at an obsolete version of the rules.

Druid wrote:

You can also choose to advance your companion(s) by racial hit dice, as described in the Animals section of the Bestiary.

Good grief, I totally was. I had downloaded all the files a while back, but I've been checking the drive for other stuff, don't know why I didn't for that one. Thanks for the answers!

The Bestiary and the Druid's Mark of the Wild ability contradict each other: The Bestiary says animals increase their CR by +1 per 3 additional HD, but Mark of the Wild says to increase CR by +1 per 2 additional HD. Which is correct?

The Daggerspell Shaper rogue general talent is the only multiclassing talent that doesn't grant synergy towards the rogue's sneak attack progresion. Is this intentional, or just an oversight?

I also do have a question about the Monk's unarmed mastery feat. The way it is written, the ability only works for unarmed attacks. If so, it seems like a nonbo to allow monks to use weapons, yet give no apparent way to have Unarmed Mastery's precision damage apply to weapons that the monk uses.

Is there any way to bypass this limitation? Or have I missed something obvious?

Based on a few posts from several years ago, I believe the intent is that the Weapon Form bonus applies to wielded/manufactured weapons and Unarmed Mastery applies to unarmed strikes, in which case the damage output is comparable between the two choices (+1/2 level vs. +[1/4 level]d6). If so, then the lack of ability to add Unarmed Mastery to weapon attacks makes sense. The exact wording of Weapon Form doesn't seem to exclude unarmed strikes, though, so I could be wrong.

I'll have to mull it over, but yeah, I think I like this a lot more. I like that it emphasizes investing in the Diplomacy skill even more, and since the penalty doesn't stack, you can't just spam a few 1st-level Charm Person spells to knock somebody down to CHA 0 and get a dominated slave (which is something a particularly determined 1st level rogue, sorcerer, or enchanter could do with attribute damage.)

wynterknight wrote:

I'm guessing once you take a certain amount of CHA damage you get charmed, but if so it's not explained anywhere--although if it is tied to attribute damage, then a fighter with Concussive Strike could stab people into being [charmed], and that would be kinda dumb.

I disagree. Bludgeoning someone into submission is exactly the sort of thing I'd like to allow!

Hahaha I get it, it just seems kind of cartoonish to me. I feel like I'd rather see feats such as Staredown and Daunting strike allow the option to browbeat as well as demoralize, which would give the same functional effect (punching them until they're nice to you) but actually require investment in Bluff/Intimidation.

That said, charmed at Cha = 1 would make the Charm spells inflict a Cha penalty as opposed to Cha damage, which would mechanically differentiate them from the dominate spells.

I don't know if that's strictly necessary, but I think I'd prefer it. ALso, if there was something that specified the penalty only applied against the caster? As it works now, Charm Person-ing a social character (politician or bard or whatever) is kind of useless, because their CHA gets nerfed for days, which renders them useless as public speakers, hype men, musicians, negotiators, etc. There's no point in Charming a diplomat if he's then unable to effectively speak on your behalf.

I still don't understand how the [charmed] condition and the various Charm Person/Monster/etc. spells are supposed to work under this system. What do you have to do to render a target [charmed], and where is that spelled out?

The combat chapter includes a description of the [charmed] condition, but doesn't actually say how to apply it (or the [befuddled] or [fascinated] conditions, actually.) Likewise, lots of spells protect against [charm] effects, but no spells actually say they apply the [charmed] (or [befuddled] or [fascinated]) condition. I'm guessing once you take a certain amount of CHA damage you get charmed, but if so it's not explained anywhere--although if it is tied to attribute damage, then a fighter with Concussive Strike could stab people into being [charmed], and that would be kinda dumb.

As written, the Charm spells only damage a target's CHA, but don't actually apply the [charmed] condition. They are able to apply the [dominated] condition pretty easily, however, since the [dominated] condition clearly says it is applied when a creature is damaged to 0 CHA, which is what the Charm spells do now.

Beguiling conditions are the only ones that don't seem to be clear in how they're applied; other conditions seem pretty clear. Effects that deal with Debilitation, Fear, Inertia, and Restraint conditions are usually pretty straightforward in how they are applied and how they stack and stuff.

I found a weird rules contradiction: The Extend Spell feat has been applied to a variety of Detect-based spells in the Spells and Grimoire sections, but the Extend Spell feat explicitly says it cannot be applied to spells with a duration of Concentration (which is what the Detect seed has), and doesn't even list a modifier for changing to/from Concentration. This also impacts the Permanent Spell feat, since Detect spells are used as examples of allowed spells, but state their durations must be extended before they can be made permanent. Likewise, there's seemingly no way to make a continuous Detect Thoughts or whatever effect in the item creation rules, because there's no multiplier for Continuous duration effects.

The Extend Spell feat also says it can't affect spells with a duration of Permanent, but that's not even a possible duration under these rules (it always seems to require invested numen), is it? I mean, doubling the duration from Permanent to Permanentx2 doesn't make any sense anyway (to infinity and beyond!), but still.

Cool, I'm glad I was on the right track with that!

I'm actually impressed at how much work you've done with this last update, actually. I keep finding changes (the rogue's combat opportunist, for example) that are both kinda small but also far-reaching and must require an annoying amount of proof-reading and double-checking. And honestly,updating the various spell lists should be relatively easy (and fun) to do on my own, so I'm not worried if it takes a while for another update to come out :p

I really like the updated files. I love the new equipment examples, and the pics in the weapons section are especially fun. And I can't imagine how much work went into the grimoire, but it's great. I look forward to seeing how the Reroll seed works out.

A question about Rogues and their skill tricks: Is it intentional that skill tricks don't always follow the spells' actual level, or have they just not been updated to match the kirthfinderized spells yet? Like for instance, Shadow Step is now a 0-level spell but a 4th level skill trick, and City Transport is now a 4th level spell but a 7th level skill trick. I suspect the levels are supposed to match up, but I just wanted to check.

Also, for Rangers:
1) Is there a reason the Forest favored terrain only grants a climb speed of 5' while the Mountain terrain grants a climb speed of 5' x bonus?
2) The Shadow Step ability under the Plane of Shadow favored terrain still references the old Reserve Feat rules.

I feel like I should just save up all my questions and make one master post, but I'm not that patient.

Looking at the grimoire, Stoneskin seems to be effective against only a single attack (Spark of Life is instantaneous, Shielding Spell makes it take effect only the next time you're struck unless you apply Extend or Mass Effect.) Is that correct? If not, how does that break down mechanically? The only other spells I can find that grant DR (Iron Body and Righteous Might) use Polymorph as their base spell seed instead of Spark Of Life.

I could use a little clarification on the +11 BAB ability of Combat Reflexes. When you interfere with the opponent's action, they can still try it again with no penalty, which I get. But can they abort that action and try something different if they don't feel like being stabbed 4 or 5 times in a row? I assume this is the case, but D&D3e/Pathfinder doesn't really have a precedent for this.

Kirth Gersen wrote:

The math worked out as FW44 indicated, and Andostre's wizard Agun didn't have a lot of gear, so it wasn't a huge issue for PCs -- I figured it was good.

Plus, Kirth loves wizard bad guys, so there were enough free spellbooks available.

Do those not count against your personal numen?

which was as clear as I could make it

... yep, it doesn't get much clearer than that sentence (clearly emphasized by a bullet point, even.) Thanks so much for the responses!

What were your wizard players' reactions to not getting any free spells known as they leveled up? I haven't done the math yet, but it seems like you either have to spend a ton of money on spells (way more than core costs), or spend every feat you get on metamagic feats. Did it work out okay in play?

wynterknight wrote:

I swear dimension door used to be in the rogue's list of skill tricks, but i don't see it anymore. Is there a reason it was removed?

I'm having the same problem. Weird.

In any event, I need to overhaul all the spells lists now that a coherent spell construction system is in place.

One of my more ambitious goals is to change the menu of fixed options for domain powers, mysteries, etc. to "build-your-own" theme powers using the Ch 8 rules (using the existing powers as examples), but that's a long way off.

I love the standardized spell building system, but I've got a few questions.

Also, I know I just asked a bunch of questions, but I echo the others here in saying that if your life is that crazy right now, I don't want to add to your stress. I personally find editing and rule crunching to be therapeutic, but obviously I'm not everybody and I'd rather you take care of yourself than worry about more stuff.

I swear dimension door used to be in the rogue's list of skill tricks, but i don't see it anymore. Is there a reason it was removed?

I've also got a couple of questions about spellcasting in this new action system:

1) Can you use Sleight of Hand to reduce the Material/Focus action from a partial (move) action to a swift or free action?
2) If you for some reason have a spell with a Material or Focus component but no verbal or somatic component, does it only cost a partial (move) action to cast? I think the answer is no, because given that logic a spell with no components would cost no actions to cast, but at the same time the way it's worded leaves that interpretation open.

A few questions and things about the Rogue:

1) Improved and Greater Sneak Attack abilities say they allow you to sneak attack cowering and blinded targets, but you should already be able to do that because those conditions deny Dex to AC.
2) Do skill tricks qualify you for Reserve feats? They're marked as spell-like abilities (Sp) so I think the answer is yes, but they seem different enough from other spell-like abilities that I want to check.
3) Similarly, can you apply feats like Piercing Evocation or Spell Focus to skill tricks?
4) Can you learn extra skill tricks via the Expanded Arcana feat?
5) I just really really like skill tricks.

wynterknight wrote:

I noticed that Chapter 7 isn't included anywhere in here, which I guess has the new rules for saves, action economy, and other stuff, because I can't find that info anywhere anymore.

Action economy is in there. Saves are, and have been, in Ch 1.

Yeah, I just found the saves yesterday. I don't know how I missed that part the other umpty-seven times I checked, sorry! I also went and read back through this thread some more and saw a few folks had already asked about Chapter 7, so I should've checked that before posting.

Also, I'm sorry to hear you were in the hospital. I hope you're doing well!

Check Kirth's profile for This link

I noticed that Chapter 7 isn't included anywhere in here, which I guess has the new rules for saves, action economy, and other stuff, because I can't find that info anywhere anymore.

The only ways i can think of off the top of my head are the Warlord capstone and the Awakened Blade capstone, which grants a prc-specific stance as a permanent ability.

If you can use third party stuff, the Warlord from Path of War is a fun charisma based martial class with a mix of striker and support abilities.

You actually add 1/2 your levels in other classes to your initiator level: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/systems-and-use/

So a stalker 4/warlord 6 would learn maneuvers as a stalker 7 and a warlord 8.

1) I'd probably rule no, at least for simplicity's sake. You can move the water to a new location, but i don't think you can stretch it to cover a greater area. Even if you could, it would have to weaken the wall somehow, since you'd be stretching it thin.
2) Yes
3) I'm not entirely sure how this would work, but I'd rule no. I think i see what you're going for, but i think that would require a greater amount of control than i read water manipulator to allow.

All that said, talk to your gm, because they might allow more flexibility with water manipulator than i would. It would certainly make some cool visuals, at least.

What's Wheaton's Law?

"Don't be a dick."

Yes, but as for how far your kinetic blast will travel underwater, that's another story.
And it would work as well as in any other dark location. There aren't technically any rules for getting salt water in your eyes, so you should be good. You'd still be subject to the normal vision penalties, though.

If you can use third party stuff, the Harbinger from Path of War adds Int to attacks and damage.

wynterknight wrote:

Can you use the Heighten Spell rules with spell-like abilities? I'm curious how that works with both racial abilities and the rogue's skill tricks.

Yes; just how it does with spells. They'd have to be "pre-loaded" that way, and would be the new (modified) level; you can't Heighten them on the fly.

I assumed as much with regular spell-likes, but wasn't sure if skill tricks worked any differently given the skill check required to use them. Thanks!

Can you use the Heighten Spell rules with spell-like abilities? I'm curious how that works with both racial abilities and the rogue's skill tricks.

That website makes it much easier to read, but I get render errors anytime it's zoomed in more than 67% (which is verging on too small to read.) It doesn't affect everything, but some stuff gets shunted off-page (where it's not visible at all.) I don't know if that's just a problem with Chrome, or something inherent to the site, but figured I'd mention it. It's still super preferable to the text documents I've been using, though.

KahnyaGnorc wrote:

DSP's Ultimate Psionics has "Open Minded" feat which is +1 per level.

thats the same book with half giant right?

Yes.

wynterknight wrote:

How do you handle suites of spell-like abilities that include multiple options at certain spell levels? For example, the transmuter wizard gets this: "4th—beast shape II, elemental body I, or monstrous physique II". Does the character 1) have to choose one of the spells as their known 4th level SLA and give up the other two, or 2) have the option of using any one of them 1/day (or 3/day or whatever), or 3) something else?

I'm embarrassed, because it's actually (1) and (2) depending on the situation, and I failed to spell that out.

(1) For bonus spells lists for the cleric, incarnate, sorcerer, etc., (1) is correct. You get one of those bonus spells, chosen when it becomes available, and lose the other(s). The same is also true for SLA lists for races, etc. So you could call this a general rule, which I need to clarify in the Spells chapter.

However,

(2) For the Transmuter specifically, (2) is correct, because beast shape II vs. monstrous physique II just means a slightly different form. Again, I should have called this out as a specific exception to the general rule.

Excellent, thanks!

How do you handle suites of spell-like abilities that include multiple options at certain spell levels? For example, the transmuter wizard gets this: "4th—beast shape II, elemental body I, or monstrous physique II". Does the character 1) have to choose one of the spells as their known 4th level SLA and give up the other two, or 2) have the option of using any one of them 1/day (or 3/day or whatever), or 3) something else?

Was the Kinetic Lancer in the playtest? I don't remember it, but it actually looks really cool. Also, I forgot how much I loved the Energy Roper.

Hooray! And of course I'm at work and can't download it yet.

This is unrelated to KoP4 (since it's still not showing up on Paizo's site uggghhhhhh), but I'm playing with a Void/Fire build and wondering how unbalanced it would be for Reanimating Infusion and/or Aura of Ash to create burning skeletons instead of zombies? Or to apply templates to the created zombies, even. Obviously they'd count extra against your limit of controlled undead.

How much longer is the playtest planned? I've got a game coming up on the 22nd, so I'll be able to try out at least the LK with my sneaky ranged telekineticist pseudo-rogue. I suspect the burn-induced penalty to skills will bother this character more than the normal nonlethal damage, but I'm curious to try it out and see how it goes.

I have to admit I really dislike the change to Burn, for a number of reasons.
1) The change seems to encourage tanky builds, which seems off for a primarily ranged/blaster class
2) It penalizes skill use, and why would you do anything to make skills take even more of a backstage to spells than they already do? The kineticist obviously isn't as much of a skillmonkey as the ranger or rogue, but they can do alright; penalizing their skill use makes them even less flexible.
3) Ability score penalties are one of the most annoying things to keep track of and really easy to forget/overlook, especially when they're constantly changing, whereas tracking hp is relatively simple and straightforward and something you're going to be doing anyway

#2 bothers me a lot, but #3 is really what would make me refuse to use the mechanic. There are already so many little bonuses and penalties flying around the table (flanking, bardic music, haste, dazzled, shaken, etc.) that adding even more would just make everything more complicated.

I get why people don't like the nonlethal mechanic, but it's so much simpler, and various elemental defenses can somewhat mitigate its effects.

I'll take another look at this later tonight when I've got the time to write out a proper response. I think you maybe pulled some things back a little too far. On the other hand, I just noticed the PoW archetype, so I'm super excited to check that out.

Here's a link, if anyone is interested.

Unchained Kineticist: Super Prototype

I like the direction this is going. I know this is still a work in progress, but a few observations:

1) Some of your text doesn't match your table. You've got "Bonus Feat" listed on the table at 4th level, but the text description says you get one at 2nd level and every 4 levels thereafter (should be levels 2, 6, 10, 14, 18.)
2) I'm mildly concerned this is a little too front-loaded--you effectively get 4 wild talents/infusions at 1st level (kinetic blade, 1 other infusion, 2 utilities), which is a massive power up from the base class. Also, I know 1st level wild talents tend to be fairly limited in scope, but they're effectively 1st-level spells usable at-will, which is weird when you compare them to traditional spellcasters which only get a few spells per day for the first few levels (I know there's a whole linear/quadratic thing, but still.) That also makes this a super dippable class (and really, a 2-level dip would be hard to pass up for a lot of builds,) which isn't necessarily a problem, just something to be noted.
3) You've got like umpteen different ways to mitigate or ignore nonlethal damage from burn here; at what point do we just say the heck with it and give them a daily pool of burn points and drop the whole nonlethal mechanic?
3a) Also, the ability to accept burn without the limiting factor of nonlethal damage is going to throw off the power level of the elemental defenses and elemental overflow, since you can just drop a bunch of points at once to fill them up with no downsides. This ties into the dipping thing I mentioned before; any fighter or rogue could take 1 level to get a bunch of free regenerating temporary hp from force ward or +6 armor/+3 shield from shroud of water, for instance. (Other elemental defenses aren't quite as bad because they're explicitly limited in certain ways.)
4) I'm a huge fan of, like, an artist's statement or whatever, explaining why various changes are being made. Again, I know this isn't finished, but I like seeing the thought process behind stuff.

Criticisms aside, though, I like a lot of this stuff.

I've been leaving a few comments on the playtest doc, but haven't actually had a chance to try anything out in an actual game. I just wanted to say how cool this round of material is, though. I love the flavor of the aberrant kineticist, the variety of new composite blasts, and the even more terrifying viscera talents, but I'm definitely going to play an energy roper if my gm ever manages to kill my current vanilla telekineticist, because it just looks like it'll be really fun to play.

I desperately want to figure out a build that relies predominantly on the kinetic cover line of talents. I feel like leaving a trail of permanent bone, solid-light, and/or forcewall houses across the countryside will serve as my legacy after I die.

I'm pretty sure 3.0 allowed you to shape it into either a flat wall or a hemisphere.

Not that anybody's mentioned. There's even a base class, the Shifter, that's specialized in shapeshifting. Of course, as I said before, using SoP changes the entire way spellcasting works, so a druid using this system wouldn't also have access to the same breadth of spells they get with the druid spell list. There's a Spheres of Power wiki you can check out for all the details, similar to d20pfsrd.

The Spheres of Power version of the Druid gets at-will shapeshifting at level 1 (although really, anyone using SoP can get at-will shapeshifting at level 1.) Of course, the SoP system dramatically changes how magic works, so it might not fit what you're looking for, but I'd recommend checking it out for inspiration at least.

Non-magic: Warlord, followed closely by Warder, both from Dreamscarred Press. I don't seem to see much love for the warlord, but I love all the weird bonuses they get and how the class encourages both teamwork as well as being really aggressive, and the fact it's a Charisma based martial class is fun. And the warder, of course, is actually really good at being a meatshield and discouraging foes from targeting other party members, plus is Intelligence based, which helps with being able to do stuff outside of combat.
Arcane: Sorcerer, followed closely by Investigator. The sorcerer's just cool, especially if you build around a concept instead of trying to play generalist. And investigators are just really awesome skill-monkeys with extracts and/or psychic spellcasting, making them good all-arounders.
Divine: Oracle? I'm not really a fan of any divine classes, tbh. Oracles are like divine sorcerers who can pick and choose their bloodline powers, which is cool and honestly how I think the sorcerer should be redesigned.
Nature: Druid. Wild shaping, 9th level spells, and an animal companion? Yes please. Although I've also been playing in a group with a hunter, and I'm pretty impressed by him, too--but wild shaping wins every time.
Occult: Kineticist. This class is just too cool, and I'm kind of obsessed with them.

Cool, thanks for answering! (...even if the munchkin in me likes the other track better!)

wynterknight wrote:

Genuine wrote:

Another question about kinetic maneuver: If I use it to disarm someone at range, does the weapon snap to the kineticist, or drop on the ground right there?

I'd say it falls on the ground like a normal disarm, but then you could use basic tk to pick it up as a separate action (assuming the target hasn't picked it up, first.)

Not quite as fun. :/ I like the jedi sort of image where stuff snaps into my hands. At least propelling an item 15' is just a move action with mage hand, so if I don't move I can still deny stuff to my target.

Oh, I agree it's not as cool, but unfortunately in a rules-heavy system like this, cool is often overriden by rules. If you're playing a home game, I'd talk to your DM and see what they'll allow; it's not like it's a particularly overpowered thing to do, and there's a sort of precedent with the pilfering hand spell, which allows for you to pull the item to yourself.