[Legendary Games] Legendary Kineticists II playtest


Product Discussion

Silver Crusade

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After FAR too much stalling, the Legendary Kineticists II playtest is finally live!

Legendary Kineticists II playtest

For this one, we're going to dole things out as the playtest rolls along (which is scheduled for 4 weeks), as there's some things we'd like to give more time to incubate. But we have quite a few things that we'd like to go over for you all!

Nihilcist: We've done so much with elements that this time we're making a non element; something that fights with pure nothingness.

Onslaught Sniper: People have been talking about a DBZ level blaster for a while, and the onslaught sniper should give them exactly what they want here with a flurry of blasts!

Bestial Kineticist: Now it's not only players who can get on the kinetic fun, it's their animal companions too!

Elemental Bomber: Know what's about as fun as bombs? Stuffing kinetic energy into them and chucking them at people!

Legendary Kineticists: Consider this your unchained kineticists, with the edits that Team KOP would make to the class to make it a more dynamic experience as well as solve issues with which we've had with the class since the inception.

Kinetic VMC: We enjoy VMC over here, and this should hopefully let other players get involved with the kinetic fun even if they're not willing to take the class (pro tip: use this with the legendary kineticist in regards to burn for best results).

Kinetic Mystic: Finally a theurge style prestige class for magic and kinetics!

All that and a ton more in the new Legendary Vigilantes II playtest, and be sure to comment either on the doc or in the thread about issues and such you have so we can address them ASAPossible! Thanks, and have a great playtest!

Legendary Kineticists II playtest


N. Jolly wrote:

After FAR too much stalling, the Legendary Kineticists II playtest is finally live!

Legendary Kineticists II playtest

For this one, we're going to dole things out as the playtest rolls along (which is scheduled for 4 weeks), as there's some things we'd like to give more time to incubate. But we have quite a few things that we'd like to go over for you all!

Nihilcist: We've done so much with elements that this time we're making a non element; something that fights with pure nothingness.

Onslaught Sniper: People have been talking about a DBZ level blaster for a while, and the onslaught sniper should give them exactly what they want here with a flurry of blasts!

Bestial Kineticist: Now it's not only players who can get on the kinetic fun, it's their animal companions too!

Elemental Bomber: Know what's about as fun as bombs? Stuffing kinetic energy into them and chucking them at people!

Legendary Kineticists: Consider this your unchained kineticists, with the edits that Team KOP would make to the class to make it a more dynamic experience as well as solve issues with which we've had with the class since the inception.

Kinetic VMC: We enjoy VMC over here, and this should hopefully let other players get involved with the kinetic fun even if they're not willing to take the class (pro tip: use this with the legendary kineticist in regards to burn for best results).

Kinetic Mystic: Finally a theurge style prestige class for magic and kinetics!

All that and a ton more in the new Legendary Vigilantes II playtest, and be sure to comment either on the doc or in the thread about issues and such you have so we can address them ASAPossible! Thanks, and have a great playtest!

Legendary Kineticists II playtest

*Hug*

Thank you N. Jolly! So looking forward to this.

BTW, I apparently missed legendary Kineticist I, could you if you have the time post a link for that? I love me some Kineticist.

:-)

Silver Crusade

Covent wrote:

*Hug*

Thank you N. Jolly! So looking forward to this.

BTW, I apparently missed legendary Kineticist I, could you if you have the time post a link for that? I love me some Kineticist.

:-)

Glad to hear it, and let me grab the link (all links to my products are in my profile here on Paizo.com):

Leg Kin on Drivethru

Leg Kin on Paizo

Legendary Kineticists didn't have an open playtest itself, as I only started to do open playtests for projects with Legendary Vigilantes, although after having ran a few, I've found that I enjoy the interaction with those who enjoy my products (and those who don't) enough to the point where they're a valuable resource. Community interaction and input is a large part of what helped make a lot of things in LV and LVV really shine, and so I welcome feedback from everyone.


N. Jolly wrote:
Covent wrote:

*Hug*

Thank you N. Jolly! So looking forward to this.

BTW, I apparently missed legendary Kineticist I, could you if you have the time post a link for that? I love me some Kineticist.

:-)

Glad to hear it, and let me grab the link (all links to my products are in my profile here on Paizo.com):

Leg Kin on Drivethru

Leg Kin on Paizo

Legendary Kineticists didn't have an open playtest itself, as I only started to do open playtests for projects with Legendary Vigilantes, although after having ran a few, I've found that I enjoy the interaction with those who enjoy my products (and those who don't) enough to the point where they're a valuable resource. Community interaction and input is a large part of what helped make a lot of things in LV and LVV really shine, and so I welcome feedback from everyone.

Thanks for the link.

*Urge to treat self to kineticist focused PDF binge rising*

I am looking forward to this and Happy Holidays!


The list N. Jolly provides sounds great so far! I have to get some of the Kineticist-related material from LG.

EDIT: And now that I've looked at what currently exists at the link, I LOVE the new Legendary Kineticist. The way it handles Burn is especially good; it's still a problem for the character to deal with, but at least it won't make you knock yourself out from just using your own class abilities.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

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N. Jolly wrote:
Covent wrote:

*Hug*

Thank you N. Jolly! So looking forward to this.

BTW, I apparently missed legendary Kineticist I, could you if you have the time post a link for that? I love me some Kineticist.

:-)

Glad to hear it, and let me grab the link (all links to my products are in my profile here on Paizo.com):

Leg Kin on Drivethru

Leg Kin on Paizo

Legendary Kineticists didn't have an open playtest itself, as I only started to do open playtests for projects with Legendary Vigilantes, although after having ran a few, I've found that I enjoy the interaction with those who enjoy my products (and those who don't) enough to the point where they're a valuable resource. Community interaction and input is a large part of what helped make a lot of things in LV and LVV really shine, and so I welcome feedback from everyone.

Don't forget the Legendary Games webstore, the bestest place in all the land to get your LG fix!


I'm actually looking forward to seeing opinions on the telekinetic bladeshifter (which is also on the doc right now). It's probably my favorite of the archetypes currently released, but I do worry that it might be slightly overpowered.

Silver Crusade

Onyx Tanuki wrote:
I'm actually looking forward to seeing opinions on the telekinetic bladeshifter (which is also on the doc right now). It's probably my favorite of the archetypes currently released, but I do worry that it might be slightly overpowered.

I'm a little sad we haven't seen more commentary on this, but I figure it'd be even worse if we'd released everything at once. I am glad to see how hyped people are for the onslaught sniper; that was a concept which I was glad to bring to this doc.

We're one week in and we're moving along, and next week we'll be adding the carapacian predator and other content we held back from the playtest to fill things out entirely, giving people a full look at the kinetic content we have for this product.

Thanks everyone who's checked it out already, and hopefully we'll get even more eyes on this soon enough!


Two questions:

1)
The proposed changes to Burn (ST/DX penalty rather than HP damage) are a major mechanical departure from the original. Can you give a little background as to the thinking behind it?

2)
What support will this product have for the "core four" (Air, Earth, Fire, Water) elements at all levels of play?

Best.

Silver Crusade

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rainzax wrote:

Two questions:

1)
The proposed changes to Burn (ST/DX penalty rather than HP damage) are a major mechanical departure from the original. Can you give a little background as to the thinking behind it?

2)
What support will this product have for the "core four" (Air, Earth, Fire, Water) elements at all levels of play?

Best.

1. I hate burn. Originally, the LK (as I'll be calling it) had no ill effects for burn, basically making it like a weird backwards resource (like it is in the regular class, but also needlessly painful). For the LK, I wanted it to be a class which could be taken by undead/constructs without need for additional archetypes (overwhelming soul is no bueno), and I wanted the effects of it to be minimal.

The belief that having Con as a 'casting stat' means that the class has to suffer HARD hitpoint wise was not one which I believe was needed, and it was one that I felt strongly about removing. Out of Team KOP, I've been almost solely responsible for any design choices with the LK, and the changes to burn are based on six books of gathering data and seeing how each of these changes would impact the class.

As a whole, I wanted to remove the stigma that the class was hurting/punishing its player, which is why burn works as it does. There was thoughts of instead keeping burn the same and making it a d10 class to compensate, but I didn't like how that messed with the accuracy (energy blast dropped in value while physical blasts increased as well as messy math on other things and archetypes going wonky), so the best compromise I could come up with was that burn had to be lessened to make sure that players 'felt the burn' while not feeling punished for taking the class.

2. Well, the dehydrating infusions are a nice way for water to play slightly differently, and it feels like it fits theme with 'elemental manipulation'. Ricochet is also another nice early game infusion that helps add a bit of fun to early game combat.

The new 'basic X' talents should actually help people who want to focus more on one side of an element rather than taking the normal 'basic x' talent, hopefully helping to differentiate cold and electric kineticists from water and air kineticists. That and magnetic chain should really help give electric users a few new interesting tools.

Also onslaught sniper is just great, regardless of element. It's the machine gun blaster we've wanted forever and are finally getting.

I hope this helps answer your questions, and enjoy the playtest!


N. Jolly wrote:
rainzax wrote:

Two questions:

1)
The proposed changes to Burn (ST/DX penalty rather than HP damage) are a major mechanical departure from the original. Can you give a little background as to the thinking behind it?

2)
What support will this product have for the "core four" (Air, Earth, Fire, Water) elements at all levels of play?

Best.

1. I hate burn. Originally, the LK (as I'll be calling it) had no ill effects for burn, basically making it like a weird backwards resource (like it is in the regular class, but also needlessly painful). For the LK, I wanted it to be a class which could be taken by undead/constructs without need for additional archetypes (overwhelming soul is no bueno), and I wanted the effects of it to be minimal.

The belief that having Con as a 'casting stat' means that the class has to suffer HARD hitpoint wise was not one which I believe was needed, and it was one that I felt strongly about removing. Out of Team KOP, I've been almost solely responsible for any design choices with the LK, and the changes to burn are based on six books of gathering data and seeing how each of these changes would impact the class.

As a whole, I wanted to remove the stigma that the class was hurting/punishing its player, which is why burn works as it does. There was thoughts of instead keeping burn the same and making it a d10 class to compensate, but I didn't like how that messed with the accuracy (energy blast dropped in value while physical blasts increased as well as messy math on other things and archetypes going wonky), so the best compromise I could come up with was that burn had to be lessened to make sure that players 'felt the burn' while not feeling punished for taking the class.

Perhaps this isn't the place for such a discussion, but if you'll continue to indulge me:

Your position on the Kineticist being a CON-casting class (as opposed to INT, WIS, CHA) is that it needn't somehow payback the benefit of consolidating needed to stats to both cast and survive - or that the payback needn't be as drastic as the Burn mechanic in Occult Adventures. Fair.

I guess I'm wondering two more things now. The first is what kind of proposals did you record six books worth of data for? I assume these are other experimental Burn mechanics that also address your position - desire for a more manageable (less punitive) Burn. I guess I'm curious what exactly got placed and removed from the drawing board.

Second is why you chose to adhere to the standard HD : BAB ratio - or put another way why you ultimately discarded the 3/4 BAB at d10 chassis proposal (which I imagine was on the table at one time or another)?

Silver Crusade

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rainzax wrote:

Perhaps this isn't the place for such a discussion, but if you'll continue to indulge me:

Your position on the Kineticist being a CON-casting class (as opposed to INT, WIS, CHA) is that it needn't somehow payback the benefit of consolidating needed to stats to both cast and survive - or that the payback needn't be as drastic as the Burn mechanic in Occult Adventures. Fair.

I guess I'm wondering two more things now. The first is what kind of proposals did you record six books worth of data for? I assume these are other experimental Burn mechanics that also address your position - desire for a more manageable (less punitive) Burn. I guess I'm curious what exactly got placed and removed from the drawing board.

Second is why you chose to adhere to the standard HD : BAB ratio - or put another way why you ultimately discarded the 3/4 BAB at d10 chassis proposal (which I imagine was on the table at one time or another)?

I use the term 'casting class' in the loosest possible way here. Really, the Barbarian is a con based class too that isn't hindered by its base ability, so I see no reason that the kineticist should be. Removing the advantage of high con (aside from fort save (which it already has a strong save) and concentration checks) isn't something I like myself, it makes it feel like a bait and switch. "Yeah, this is a con based class!...with HP at or lower than a normal d8 class...yeah..."

My time with this class has been split between playing it and writing it, and there was a few ideas; as well as noting that battle burn was created by discussing burn with another person from the boards while we tried to figure out a way to make the kineticist a more dynamic class.

There were a lot of 'burn substitutes', including just giving it a burn pool like a lot of other classes, but that just messed up elemental overflow way too much, and so that was one of the ideas we scrapped fastest. Something I want to note here is that the reason we went with this sort of thing is that we wanted burn to be as close to the base class as possible to ensure we can still use the large amount of content we already had. Backwards compatibility is a huge reason behind the current burn decision.

As for d10 and 3/4ths BAB, there's some things that set off a 'This is 3rd Party' alert in their head, things that just tell a person that this is different from what they already have, and going non-standard with the hit die/BAB is a big one. I'm not saying I'm opposed to doing it, I'm a fan of ignoring tradition where it stifles creativity, but to me, there wasn't a large reason to do this. A d10 would on average only give 1 more hit point, so it's basically only safeguarding you from 1 point of burn, and 2 at the most. The way that we've written burn now removes all of that, although it makes it worse of a skill character (ACP + burn wrecks a lot of skills like that), which may lead to trying to help some way around that (already thinking of a feat).

Come to think of it, this kind of burn is almost a more extreme form of ACP, but always wearing the correct kind of armor. Really, in the end we wanted a solution that would both allow us to incorporate as much of our old material as possible while still presenting a class that would appeal to those who wanted a more versatile/less punished experience. And with the way burn works, if people just wanted the rest of the package (altered expanded element, battle burn, etc), they could just revert burn back to its old form without any concerns for the rest of the package, making it able to be backported for people who liked burn the way it was.

The Legendary Kineticist is my attempt to make a kineticist which both upgrades the class but stays true to the base concept, and really, I think I've done a pretty good job here.


Thanks for taking the time to lay that out.

I am awaiting my copy of Legendary Kineticists as we speak. From first glance, I really like the Burn mechanic as written in Occult Adventures, but think that the drawback is one notch too strong. I am therefore tempted to consider the alternate presented here, some kind of reduction (half?) in sustained damage, or increasing the hit points or HD of the class.

In the mean time, my player seems to be having fun playing the class, although I am interested in offering him a few more options (ideally, utility talents, blasts and infusions) because the class suffers from a small pool of options once you have chosen your focus.

Cheers!


so ive been reading the PDF and wondering about this a bit. ive not had much luck forming what i feel are really good question so.. ill just go with what i have.

the majority of my focus right now is on mind focus, the onslaught sniper, and the Legendary Kineticist. with the LK i have no real issue. interesting change to the effects of burn, but a change I fully expected- after the kinetic Shinobi i'd been musing about how similar Ki and Burn seem to be so it didn't blow me away that the HP change happened here. im more happy about the QoL improvement of autoscaling saves. that was needed.

on Mind Focus I was hoping for more infusions and utility talents, but then it was one heck of an offering of that during their first apperance. I suppose I can't feel bad about that.

but Onslaught Sniper. I was waiting to see this since i got a glimpse of the name. ive been puzzling on this one for awhile, because on the surface it looks like the kind of class far up my alley... but im just not feeling it. something feels off. can i ask the intent of the archetype?

From what i gather the initial concept seems cool- splintering a blast so you can spread it out over an area or a number of targets. it's a cool spectacle, which pushes for more debris as you can lob even more and more fire in exchange for other class features. alternative names like "Roiling Wave" or "Havoc Spreader" came to mind clearer than the classes own name do, because after time kicking around the class the ability to in one action spread out an infusion over several targets is an awesome touch and is the part i like most, even down to trading metakinesis Maximize so when i have to shoot only one target the saves they have dip low. but im not feeling the Onslaught Sniper on the damage front. and i can't tell if im wrong or right on that.

A lot of it comes from the.. well i was going to say weaker, but.. Odder feels more correct single target Damage in comparison to a standard kineticist. that thought stems from that part about taking only a max of damage from where a normal kineticist could work with the same tier of blast was added (and today i looked to see someone try and reword that one... and that's what i got out of it, and until just now i thought even worse of it). I know that parts under contention right now, so i guess this is me adding my voice to it. ill admit i don't recall each way to improve damage for a blast now, but between the once per targets on additional damage (including con mods) rule recently added, no damage-usable metakinesis or standard elemental overflow damage, and how for energy specifically has a hard time catching back up to lost overflow damage on one target (using composite blast, 20 energy shots into one target yields +9 extra damage. a minor thing perhaps, but still...), in the end once your down to the last target the you just can't turn the extra fire on them in the same way feels so wrong.

the fact i just realized while writing this out what that line intends to do just confused me. Whatever the case, i know i don't like it.

Silver Crusade

Bdrone wrote:

so ive been reading the PDF and wondering about this a bit. ive not had much luck forming what i feel are really good question so.. ill just go with what i have.

the majority of my focus right now is on mind focus, the onslaught sniper, and the Legendary Kineticist. with the LK i have no real issue. interesting change to the effects of burn, but a change I fully expected- after the kinetic Shinobi i'd been musing about how similar Ki and Burn seem to be so it didn't blow me away that the HP change happened here. im more happy about the QoL improvement of autoscaling saves. that was needed.

on Mind Focus I was hoping for more infusions and utility talents, but then it was one heck of an offering of that during their first apperance. I suppose I can't feel bad about that.

but Onslaught Sniper. I was waiting to see this since i got a glimpse of the name. ive been puzzling on this one for awhile, because on the surface it looks like the kind of class far up my alley... but im just not feeling it. something feels off. can i ask the intent of the archetype?

From what i gather the initial concept seems cool- splintering a blast so you can spread it out over an area or a number of targets. it's a cool spectacle, which pushes for more debris as you can lob even more and more fire in exchange for other class features. alternative names like "Roiling Wave" or "Havoc Spreader" came to mind clearer than the classes own name do, because after time kicking around the class the ability to in one action spread out an infusion over several targets is an awesome touch and is the part i like most, even down to trading metakinesis Maximize so when i have to shoot only one target the saves they have dip low. but im not feeling the Onslaught Sniper on the damage front. and i can't tell if im wrong or right on that.

A lot of it comes from the.. well i was going to say weaker, but.. Odder feels more correct single target Damage in comparison to a standard kineticist. that thought stems from that part about taking only a...

Let me respond to this part by part to make it more clear.

1. The LK is thankfully something people seem to like, and I think it makes for a much better experience in play, although I've gone into detail about that above.

2. For mind, part of me wants to add more stuff to it, but at the same time, it's sitting at nearly 100 talents already, and it's a dangerous balance to try to add more due to diluting what we already have. I think the mind element is pretty self contained, which is why I've chosen not to expand upon it.

3. For the onslaught sniper, this was something where I kind of went style over substance here. The purpose of it is more aesthetic than mechanical since it's really something I know people have wanted forever; you see request for something like this pop up a lot.

For damage, you're not the only one who's had this concern. Some of the testers at PFG actually ran the numbers on it for physical and energy blasts, and originally before the most recent update, it was being beaten out by the base class, which is why the 'for every two blast, you do +1/+3 damage) clause was added. I'm probably going to return the +1 damage per blast to the metakinesis substitutes too, because it almost certainly needs it.

Something it also does is allows you to make a hell of a cool display with form infusions, as you can snake each one as well as tagging each one with singularity or mobile blast too, creating one hell of a mine field for people to enter. Considering you can even put them in the air too (as far as I'm aware), this is really an archetype for battlefield control as much as it is damage, as there's a lot of sick things you can do as long as you use your infusions intelligently.

I can admit that I'm still tinkering with the numbers here, and I think I'll be adding some damage to it, but as a whole, it's an archetype intended for some fun battlefield control and sick visuals; and I myself love style.


N. Jolly wrote:
1. The LK is thankfully something people seem to like, and I think it makes for a much better experience in play, although I've gone into detail about that above.

Agreed. while i remember some of the original drafts for something like this, think ill put this version to use when i play a Kineticist in the future.

N. Jolly wrote:
2. For mind, part of me wants to add more stuff to it, but at the same time, it's sitting at nearly 100 talents already, and it's a dangerous balance to try to add more due to diluting what we already have. I think the mind element is pretty self contained, which is why I've chosen not to expand upon it.

huh. i wasn't keeping count, but... 100 already? well, at that point, fair enough i suppose. there's other focuses im sure could use more attention. it IS plenty sweet as is- one of my favorites.

N. Jolly wrote:

3. For the onslaught sniper, this was something where I kind of went style over substance here...

For damage, you're not the only one who's had this concern. Some of the testers at PFG actually ran the numbers on it for physical and energy blasts, and originally before the most recent update, it was being beaten out by the base class, which is why the 'for every two blast, you do +1/+3 damage) clause was added. I'm probably going to return the +1 damage per blast to the metakinesis substitutes too, because it almost certainly needs it.

Something it also does is allows you to make a hell of a cool display with form infusions, as you can snake each one as well as tagging each one with singularity or mobile blast too, creating one hell of a mine field for people to enter. Considering you can even put them in the air too (as far as I'm aware), this is really an archetype for battlefield control as much as it is damage, as there's a lot of sick things you can do as long as you use your infusions intelligently.

I can admit that I'm still tinkering with the numbers here, and I think I'll be adding some damage to it, but as a whole, it's an archetype intended for some fun battlefield control and sick visuals; and I myself love style.

well, you did succeed on the raw style. i was reminded of the many flurries of attacks from both DBZ and even a bit of OPM. that said, i may have been one of the folks requesting more ranged related stuff. heck, i remember counting up feats like follow-up blast with kinetic Accel just to see how high i could sling a damage blast. that said, does kinetic acceleration synergize with Focused Blaster? just came to me.

the thing i found most positive overall is no doubt the infusion tapping, though i had to push past an explosion-field first to get there. Mind mass Stupify felt pretty good- thus why the name feels off at this point. all that spectacle is the opposite of a sniper in my eyes. but hey, i just set 8 people on fire in one turn.

its definitely good to hear the damage tweaks are still inbound. right now it just.. seems off even if the damage hadn't been, and i couldnt let it pass without my 2 teef-err, copper on that one (get outta my head, Orks!). there's clear breakpoints where when shooting everything at one target means your.. essentially trying to force the max base damage + setting off the extra beam rules, if im reading it right. if i can go nuclear and fire more dakka then a mob of Shoota Boyz, It should feel like it... least that's how i see it. that reading comes off better than what i thought before i penned the last post, but... agh, we'll see how it goes.

Thanks for the clarifications. ill be watchin'.


Good to see some free Legendary Kineticists 2 playtest for 2016. ;)


There's a clause right now in the onslaught sniper that prevents you from ever dealing more damage than a normal blast with its own effect modifiers would, save for the multi-hit onslaught blast bonus.

Quote:
An onslaught blast can deal no more damage to a single target than normal for a blast of that type from a kineticist of the onslaught sniper’s level (for example, a 7th level onslaught sniper using a simple energy blast cannot deal more than 4d6+½ Con to an individual creature with their onslaught blast, plus whatever effects might alter a kinetic blast’s damage)

What's the intent here? It seems to have been an accepted suggestion, from the comments? Because if it's to make sure nothing ever deals as much as a regular kineticist would have, it worked. The entire archetype falls on its face for damage as soon as Empower Metakinesis comes online, since the archetype does not get abilities that would improve a kinetic blast's damage, just more blasts, and those just hit a damage cap.

Against multiple targets you're better off using regular form infusions to pull it off as well, you were going to pay the burn costs either way, and Twin Metakinesis isn't capped at "but just the first blast gets to do any damage".

I love the style and feel of the onslaught sniper over all, but that limitation just seems to spit on it and makes sure it's a trap. Am I missing something here?


Dotted ^_^

Silver Crusade

Jamie Charlan wrote:
There's a clause right now in the onslaught sniper that prevents you from ever dealing more damage than a normal blast with its own effect modifiers would, save for the multi-hit onslaught blast bonus.
Quote:
An onslaught blast can deal no more damage to a single target than normal for a blast of that type from a kineticist of the onslaught sniper’s level (for example, a 7th level onslaught sniper using a simple energy blast cannot deal more than 4d6+½ Con to an individual creature with their onslaught blast, plus whatever effects might alter a kinetic blast’s damage)

What's the intent here? It seems to have been an accepted suggestion, from the comments? Because if it's to make sure nothing ever deals as much as a regular kineticist would have, it worked. The entire archetype falls on its face for damage as soon as Empower Metakinesis comes online, since the archetype does not get abilities that would improve a kinetic blast's damage, just more blasts, and those just hit a damage cap.

Against multiple targets you're better off using regular form infusions to pull it off as well, you were going to pay the burn costs either way, and Twin Metakinesis isn't capped at "but just the first blast gets to do any damage".

I love the style and feel of the onslaught sniper over all, but that limitation just seems to spit on it and makes sure it's a trap. Am I missing something here?

I didn't include the cap text, and I'm going to review it once I'm in better health (spent a day in the hospital and all), so we're going to get this all sorted out, because I love that archetype and don't want to see it suck.

Silver Crusade

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Also since I've been MIA, the new content will be hitting the playtest this Thursday, as well as the decision about the Onslaught Sniper, which might get a name change...but not onslaught, I love that part of the name.


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Heads up folks, the new content for the playtest is officially live!

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
N. Jolly wrote:
Jamie Charlan wrote:
There's a clause right now in the onslaught sniper that prevents you from ever dealing more damage than a normal blast with its own effect modifiers would, save for the multi-hit onslaught blast bonus.
Quote:
An onslaught blast can deal no more damage to a single target than normal for a blast of that type from a kineticist of the onslaught sniper’s level (for example, a 7th level onslaught sniper using a simple energy blast cannot deal more than 4d6+½ Con to an individual creature with their onslaught blast, plus whatever effects might alter a kinetic blast’s damage)

What's the intent here? It seems to have been an accepted suggestion, from the comments? Because if it's to make sure nothing ever deals as much as a regular kineticist would have, it worked. The entire archetype falls on its face for damage as soon as Empower Metakinesis comes online, since the archetype does not get abilities that would improve a kinetic blast's damage, just more blasts, and those just hit a damage cap.

Against multiple targets you're better off using regular form infusions to pull it off as well, you were going to pay the burn costs either way, and Twin Metakinesis isn't capped at "but just the first blast gets to do any damage".

I love the style and feel of the onslaught sniper over all, but that limitation just seems to spit on it and makes sure it's a trap. Am I missing something here?

I didn't include the cap text, and I'm going to review it once I'm in better health (spent a day in the hospital and all), so we're going to get this all sorted out, because I love that archetype and don't want to see it suck.

Hoping you get better soon, NJ :-)


Having taken a second look at the playtest, I will say that the Carapacian Predator looks like it'd go great with a Worm That Walks for a very nasty villain.

And you can use Deadly Aim with kinetic blasts? I'm surprised.

Silver Crusade

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Update on the onslaught sniper: The cap is removed.

Update on the onslaught sniper: Rapid Shot and/or haste no longer grant additional blasts.

Update on onslaught sniper: Targeted strike now imposes an AC penalty for 1 round.

These are as far as I'm concerned the final decisions on this situation, as I think this is the most fair way of going about it, although I might throw in a penalty against intimidation checks for the targeted shot since it seems thematic to be scared after someone shotguns you like that.

And thanks Raven, I'm doing a lot better now than I was before when I thought I was dying a lot.


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I have to admit I really dislike the change to Burn, for a number of reasons.
1) The change seems to encourage tanky builds, which seems off for a primarily ranged/blaster class
2) It penalizes skill use, and why would you do anything to make skills take even more of a backstage to spells than they already do? The kineticist obviously isn't as much of a skillmonkey as the ranger or rogue, but they can do alright; penalizing their skill use makes them even less flexible.
3) Ability score penalties are one of the most annoying things to keep track of and really easy to forget/overlook, especially when they're constantly changing, whereas tracking hp is relatively simple and straightforward and something you're going to be doing anyway

#2 bothers me a lot, but #3 is really what would make me refuse to use the mechanic. There are already so many little bonuses and penalties flying around the table (flanking, bardic music, haste, dazzled, shaken, etc.) that adding even more would just make everything more complicated.

I get why people don't like the nonlethal mechanic, but it's so much simpler, and various elemental defenses can somewhat mitigate its effects.


How much longer is the playtest planned? I've got a game coming up on the 22nd, so I'll be able to try out at least the LK with my sneaky ranged telekineticist pseudo-rogue. I suspect the burn-induced penalty to skills will bother this character more than the normal nonlethal damage, but I'm curious to try it out and see how it goes.

Silver Crusade

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wynterknight wrote:

I have to admit I really dislike the change to Burn, for a number of reasons.

1) The change seems to encourage tanky builds, which seems off for a primarily ranged/blaster class
2) It penalizes skill use, and why would you do anything to make skills take even more of a backstage to spells than they already do? The kineticist obviously isn't as much of a skillmonkey as the ranger or rogue, but they can do alright; penalizing their skill use makes them even less flexible.
3) Ability score penalties are one of the most annoying things to keep track of and really easy to forget/overlook, especially when they're constantly changing, whereas tracking hp is relatively simple and straightforward and something you're going to be doing anyway

#2 bothers me a lot, but #3 is really what would make me refuse to use the mechanic. There are already so many little bonuses and penalties flying around the table (flanking, bardic music, haste, dazzled, shaken, etc.) that adding even more would just make everything more complicated.

I get why people don't like the nonlethal mechanic, but it's so much simpler, and various elemental defenses can somewhat mitigate its effects.

I can understand your rationale here.

1. I don't mind a ranged character being more tanky, but I can see how it doesn't fit your perceptions.

2. This was basically the best way I could think to do things thematically, since the original idea of fatigue or other issues didn't really work for me. I'm not happy to give basically more ACP, but it was the best solution for me.

3. I'm willing to trade something that's slightly more fiddly for something that makes the class actively worse. I don't think it's terribly hard to keep track of myself, but I will admit it'd help to have an online sheet for things like this.

wynterknight wrote:
How much longer is the playtest planned? I've got a game coming up on the 22nd, so I'll be able to try out at least the LK with my sneaky ranged telekineticist pseudo-rogue. I suspect the burn-induced penalty to skills will bother this character more than the normal nonlethal damage, but I'm curious to try it out and see how it goes.

The playtest is planned for 2 more weeks, since due to illness I had to extend it. I haven't been able to get on as much as I'd like (I have both #drake99 and Spheres of Might swallowing my time now), but I do want to get on and address more concerns where I can.

Silver Crusade

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And we're another week into the playtest, things seem to have slowed down, so unless I hear much in the next day or so, I'll probably end the playtest.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

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N. Jolly wrote:
And we're another week into the playtest, things seem to have slowed down, so unless I hear much in the next day or so, I'll probably end the playtest.

Sounds good. Time to tie up the loose ends and get us moving. I also need a description on the sample character, if there is going to be one in this issue, so we can get Tanya going on making it look awesome! :)

Silver Crusade

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I'd like to thank everyone who participated in this playtest; thanks to you we have a lot of new information and viewpoints to help make this book even better than it was before. The playtest is officially over; keep an eye out for my next playtest (whenever that may be), and here's hoping we knock it out of the park as hard as we did with Legendary Kineticists I!


How fares the battle, Jolly? Update?

Silver Crusade

Fellfire wrote:
How fares the battle, Jolly? Update?

LK2 is in the hands of the publisher now, I'm currently in discussion with our amazing artist for Trueno's art, and hopefully we should be pulling it all out within the month as long as the queue of books keeps moving along as it has.


Excellent. Thank you. What's next for you at Legendary? Any progress on that Symbiote base-class? I know you're busy with other projects too. Can you drop a little 411 on this enigmatic #drake99 you keep breadcrumbing?

Silver Crusade

Fellfire wrote:
Excellent. Thank you. What's next for you at Legendary? Any progress on that Symbiote base-class? I know you're busy with other projects too. Can you drop a little 411 on this enigmatic #drake99 you keep breadcrumbing?

Right now I'm assisting with a few books at LG, the symbiote class is on hiatus at the moment until I can focus on it more. And this probably isn't the best place to talk about #drake99, as it's not an LG product. Right now it's nearly done though one the wonderful Loren Sieg helps me fill it out a bit more.


Right on. I hope you can get back to that Legendary Symbiont in the near future. Ooh, a clue.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

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LK2 is in layout now, so hopefully it will be ready by next week.


All I can say to this is: YASSSSSSSSS~

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