Is Pummeling Style one attack or multiple attacks?


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Grand Lodge

11 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Is Pummeling Style one attack or multiple attacks?

prd, ACG, feats wrote:

Pummeling Style (Combat, Style)

You collect all your power into a single vicious and debilitating punch.

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike; base attack bonus +6, brawler's flurry class feature, or flurry of blows class feature.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch. Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack or a flurry of blows (your choice) with the normal attack bonus for each attack. For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any). If any of the attack rolls are critical threats, make one confirmation roll for the entire attack at your highest base attack bonus. If it succeeds, the entire attack is a confirmed critical hit


Yes.

It is in many respects both. Calculate your attacks as a normal full attack, each one individually and as you would a normal full attack. Keep a running total of the damage you would do as if it was a normal full attack, but don't apply it. You then apply the totaled damage as a single attack.

This means each 'virtual attack' suffers normal miss chance for instance, and if you get a bonus to the first attack in the round only the first 'virtual attack' gets that bonus. DR however only applies once.

Grand Lodge

It's either one attack or more than one attack. It can't be both.

p.s. I'm not trying to be a jerk with this statement but "Calculate your attacks as a normal full attack, each one individually and as you would a normal full attack. Keep a running total of the damage you would do as if it was a normal full attack, but don't apply it. You then apply the totaled damage as a single attack.

This means each 'virtual attack' suffers normal miss chance for instance, and if you get a bonus to the first attack in the round only the first 'virtual attack' gets that bonus. DR however only applies once." is completely outside of the view of my question. I don't need to know how to calculate it, how to roll the dice, or how it interacts with DR. I just need to know if it's one attack or not.

Liberty's Edge

claudekennilol wrote:

Is Pummeling Style one attack or multiple attacks?

prd, ACG, feats wrote:

Pummeling Style (Combat, Style)

You collect all your power into a single vicious and debilitating punch.

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike; base attack bonus +6, brawler's flurry class feature, or flurry of blows class feature.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch. Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack or a flurry of blows (your choice) with the normal attack bonus for each attack. For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any). If any of the attack rolls are critical threats, make one confirmation roll for the entire attack at your highest base attack bonus. If it succeeds, the entire attack is a confirmed critical hit

Can Pummeling Style work with vital strike? I've always wondered the same thing about whether its "one attack" or "multiple attacks"


"in many respects" not all respects. I really don't know how else to describe it.

Because whilst it is a single attack, it is resolved by rolling many attack rolls - these 'virtual attacks'?/'pseudo attacks?' are resolved as if you were making a normal full attack. The only difference between this and a normal full attack (other than the charge) is that you add all the damage together and apply it as a single total.


In the strictest and literal sense it is one attack. It won't work with vital strike because it is calculated using your normal full attack and i don't believe you can use vital strike on a full attack.


IT seems to me that it is 1 attack, not many, just 1. But it is not an attack action, it is a full-round action.

I do not think it can work with vital strike however thatcheriliff. The reasoning is that pummeling style says as a full-round action. So this is a full-round action that does some neat stuff with attacking and damage. However Vital strike is applied when you use the attack action.


Vital strike is specifically a standard action.

Pummeling Style is specifically full round.

It is one attack only, but the important bit is

Quote:
Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack or a flurry of blows (your choice) with the normal attack bonus for each attack.

So each individual sequential roll ('attack') is treated the same as if it were the same sequential roll (attack) during a normal full attack action. Thus things like horn of the crioshinx still only affect your first roll in the pummeling style attack.


claudekennilol wrote:

It's either one attack or more than one attack. It can't be both.

p.s. I'm not trying to be a jerk with this statement but "Calculate your attacks as a normal full attack, each one individually and as you would a normal full attack. Keep a running total of the damage you would do as if it was a normal full attack, but don't apply it. You then apply the totaled damage as a single attack.

This means each 'virtual attack' suffers normal miss chance for instance, and if you get a bonus to the first attack in the round only the first 'virtual attack' gets that bonus. DR however only applies once." is completely outside of the view of my question. I don't need to know how to calculate it, how to roll the dice, or how it interacts with DR. I just need to know if it's one attack or not.

While you're not trying to be a jerk, statements like this, without telling us what you plan to do with the information, is generally then used in another arguement that goes 'ha, i can do this with pummelling style, because its one attack. it says so here!"

Whats the general question it applies to? that will let us help you better.


It's a grey area.

I handle it as multiple attacks. Otherwise there's a lot of cheese from stuff like Dragon Style, but you're not screwed by a random Swashbuckler with a grudge.


There are very few cases where dragon style and pummeling attacks will happen at the same time, but I see your point.

My group counts the damage as one attack. Off the top of my head, that means that it overcomes DR, I can't think of other benefits to that right now.

Yet we count each "hit" as a different attack. Therefore, the miss chance would be rolled for each attack.


The only thing it should be treated as one attack for is how the damage is done. Not the attacks themselves.

So as others have said, multiple rolls and one result.


Komoda wrote:

There are very few cases where dragon style and pummeling attacks will happen at the same time, but I see your point.

My group counts the damage as one attack. Off the top of my head, that means that it overcomes DR, I can't think of other benefits to that right now.

Yet we count each "hit" as a different attack. Therefore, the miss chance would be rolled for each attack.

Very few?

Master of Many Styles 2/Brawler or Sacred Fist X is seen as a strong build. That combination has a lot to do with it. And the Swashbuckler can have a grudge no matter what you're running (Admittedly, you'll turn it off after the first countered swing, but before that one...)

Cavall explained how I run it better than I did, re-reading my posts. One hit for DR, hardness, etc. But anything that deals with your attack rolls deals with all of your attack rolls, and anything that effects damage of individual attacks prior to the actual hit affects each individual attack separately.


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Honestly I wonder how much the developers regret master of many styles given how it's pretty much become a default for unarmed attacks by many people's opinions.


I saw it mentioned but what is the official ruling (or general consensus) on Dragon style with pummeling strike? Just the first virtual attack or the whole thing for the str bonus?

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

It's no different from a Gunslinger's Dead Shot Deed.

It's one attack, as reiterated 3 times within the text of the feat.

They tried extra hard to make sure ppl understood it was one attack.


It is one attack, but it has multiple attack rolls, and deals damage as the sum of what multiple attacks would deal, so...yeah, I agree with the above and want to know the specific question you're really looking to abuse/manipulate before we give a specific answer.


For the purposes of damage reduction, miss chance, mirror image issues, duelist's parry, and other cases that rely on an attack resolution to trigger, it is a single attack.

For the purposes of attack and damage buffs, fortune hex, true strike, and other cases related to attack rolls, it counts as multiple attacks.


So basically you think crane style totally negates all pummeling style can offer? I'm unsure of that. I think I'll keep it multiple strikes that add up to one solid blow. The very definition of pummel is to hit repeatedly.

Dark Archive

You are rolling multiple attacks, but it is essentially clustered shots for unarmed characters.


Cavall wrote:
So basically you think crane style totally negates all pummeling style can offer? I'm unsure of that. I think I'll keep it multiple strikes that add up to one solid blow. The very definition of pummel is to hit repeatedly.

Yes, it absolutely does. So does Duelist's Parry, and any other ability that essentially negates a single attack. Dead Shot Deed is outright useless against someone with Deflect Arrows.

That's the risk you take for putting all your eggs in one basket. Pummeling Strike and Dead Shot Deed are fantastic against Damage Reduction. They are bad against anything that mitigates attacks.


Doomed Hero wrote:
Cavall wrote:
So basically you think crane style totally negates all pummeling style can offer? I'm unsure of that. I think I'll keep it multiple strikes that add up to one solid blow. The very definition of pummel is to hit repeatedly.

Yes, it absolutely does. So does Duelist's Parry, and any other ability that essentially negates a single attack. Dead Shot Deed is outright useless against someone with Deflect Arrows.

That's the risk you take for putting all your eggs in one basket. Pummeling Strike and Dead Shot Deed are fantastic against Damage Reduction. They are bad against anything that mitigates attacks.

I don't agree with this at all. Deflect Arrows would not stop all of the shots with cluster shot. Each attack would have to be checked separately against anything that stops the attack. Nothing anywhere says to apply a miss chance or a mirror image only once.


The rules seem to disagree with your position

Quote:
Dead Shot (Ex): At 7th level, as a full-round action, the gunslinger can take careful aim and pool all of her attack potential into a single, deadly shot. When she does this, she shoots the firearm at a single target, but makes as many attack rolls as she can, based on her base attack bonus. She makes the attack rolls in order from highest bonus to lowest, as if she were making a full attack. If any of the attack rolls hit the target, the gunslinger’s single attack is considered to have hit. For each additional successful attack roll beyond the first, the gunslinger increases the damage of the shot by the base damage dice of the firearm. For instance, if a 7th-level gunslinger firing a musket hits with both attacks, she does 2d12 points of damage with the shot, instead of 1d12 points of damage, before adding any damage modifiers. Precision damage and extra damage from weapon special abilities (such as flaming) are added with damage modifiers and are not increased by this deed. If one or more rolls are critical threats, she confirms the critical once using her highest base attack bonus –5. For each critical threat beyond the first, she reduces this penalty by 1 (to a maximum of 0). The gunslinger only misfires on a dead shot if all the attack rolls are misfires. She cannot perform this deed with a blunderbuss or other scatter weapon when attacking creatures in a cone. The gunslinger must spend 1 grit point to perform this deed.


This is super important to have absolutely clear for the purposes of body wraps.

Scarab Sages

It's also important for things like the precise strike deed or sneak attack.


I've always seen it as, yes, a single attack for the purposes of things like Opportune Parry & Riposte, etc., but requiring multiple attack ROLLS and multiple damage ROLLS, for the purposes of things like Air Blessing vs Destruction Blessing (Air only works on the first physically damage ROLL and no subsequent ones, while Destruction Blessing works on all rolls made as part of Punishing Style because of how the two Blessings work).

In essence, it's basically Clustered Shots for melee, with the extra caveat that if ANY Critical Hits are scored, ALL the registered hits are Criticals.

That being said, this is a fairly common and argued-upon point that hasn't fully been clarified yet.


So we have like 10+ different ideas as to how this should work, but only 2 FAQs on it. I guess everyone knows they are right and everyone else is wrong and don't want to bother proving it to everyone?

Liberty's Edge

You resolve multiple attacks as one single attack, so... yeah. Getting seven attacks resolved as one uber-punch only to find out you tunneled through a Mirror Image's head instead of the guy you wanted to punch is gonna suck. =p

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Doomed Hero is right. It's just a single attack with an weird way of resolving it and rolling damage.


Chess Pwn wrote:
So we have like 10+ different ideas as to how this should work, but only 2 FAQs on it. I guess everyone knows they are right and everyone else is wrong and don't want to bother proving it to everyone?

I think the ability (and others like it) are pretty well explained. I wouldn't expect an FAQ answer on it unless there's some aspect of it that creates a really complicated or unclear situation.

It is multiple rolls that create one attack.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding where the confusion is coming from.


Chess Pwn wrote:
So we have like 10+ different ideas as to how this should work, but only 2 FAQs on it. I guess everyone knows they are right and everyone else is wrong and don't want to bother proving it to everyone?

Or most people simply go with table variance and leave it at that, 'cause not EVERYTHING has to have an official ruling to be played.


Doomed Hero wrote:

I think the ability (and others like it) are pretty well explained. I wouldn't expect an FAQ answer on it unless there's some aspect of it that creates a really complicated or unclear situation.

It is multiple rolls that create one attack.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding where the confusion is coming from.

I've seen first-hand the confusion and the arguments it can create on these forums, so maybe I can explain a little.

One school of thought is that the feat is very much a counterpart to Clustered Shots: a matryoshka attack of sorts, with multiple Attack ROLLS and multiple damage ROLLS, but contained in a single over-arching Attack. This means that modifiers to Attack and Damage ROLLS work as normal, while bonuses and effects specific to singular Attacks PERIOD (such as DR) only care about the summed result

Another school of thought is that the feat is a single attack, period, and the rolls made therein are not actually different Attack ROLLS nor Damage ROLLS, and thus things with affect damage ROLLS don't actually work as normal.

Still another kinda combines the two, where anything that affects one attack or damage roll affects everything within the attack, and is multiplied accordingly.

The Air Blessing and the Destruction Blessing are a prime illustration of how the feat can be interpreted in different ways:

Air Blessing, Soaring Assault wrote:
At 10th level, you can touch an ally and give her the gift of flight for 1 minute (as fly). The ally gains a fly speed of 60 feet with average maneuverability. She gains a bonus on Fly skill checks equal to your level. Whenever the ally succeeds at a charge attack while flying, that attack deals an amount of additional electricity damage equal to your level.

---

Destruction Blessing, Destructive Attack wrote:
Destructive Attacks (minor): At 1st level, you can touch an ally and bless it with the power of destruction. For 1 minute, the ally gains a morale bonus on weapon damage rolls equal to half your level (minimum 1).

---

Sacred Fist 10:

School 1 says:

Air Blessing: (Unarmed +8 (1d10 + Str) / Unarmed +8 (1d10 + Str) / Unarmed +3 (1d10 + Str) / Unarmed +3 (1d10 + Str)) + 10 Electric

Destruction Blessing: (Unarmed +8 (1d10 + Str + 5) / Unarmed +8 (1d10 + Str + 5) / Unarmed +3 (1d10 + Str + 5) / Unarmed +3 (1d10 + Str + 5))

School 2 says:

Air Blessing: (Unarmed +8 (1d10 + Str) / Unarmed +8 (1d10 + Str) / Unarmed +3 (1d10 + Str) / Unarmed +3 (1d10 + Str)) + 10 Electric

Destruction Blessing: (Unarmed +8 (1d10 + Str) / Unarmed +8 (1d10 + Str) / Unarmed +3 (1d10 + Str) / Unarmed +3 (1d10 + Str)) + 5

School 3 says:

Air Blessing: (Unarmed +8 (1d10 + Str + 10 Electric) / Unarmed +8 (1d10 + Str + 10 Electric) / Unarmed +3 (1d10 + Str + 10 Electric) / Unarmed +3 (1d10 + Str + 10 Electric))

Destruction Blessing: (Unarmed +8 (1d10 + Str + 5) / Unarmed +8 (1d10 + Str + 5) / Unarmed +3 (1d10 + Str + 5) / Unarmed +3 (1d10 + Str + 5)

---

So, yeah... a tiny bit of interpretive variance can lead to a huge difference in damage output and what is & isn't optimal.


Air blessing effects a charge attack. Pummeling Charge is one. Bonus damage is applied once. The key words are "that attack"

Destruction Blessing is a damage bonus, same as if the weapon was enchanted. Damage bonus is applied to each roll. The key words are "weapon damage rolls"


Doomed Hero wrote:

Air blessing effects a charge attack. Pummeling Charge is one. Bonus damage is applied once. The key words are "that attack"

Destruction Blessing is a damage bonus, same as if the weapon was enchanted. Damage bonus is applied to each roll. The key words are "weapon damage rolls"

Personally, I agree with you, and have ruled it like that since day 1 (which my group has never had a problem with in the slightest); other people (including the author of the Warpriest guide) disagree, though it seems like the majority agree with you and I on that.


Komoda wrote:
My group counts the damage as one attack. Off the top of my head, that means that it overcomes DR, I can't think of other benefits to that right now.

Attacking someone with Fire Shield, Thorn Body, or similar is a lot safer when you do all your damage in a single attack.


Matthew Downie wrote:
Komoda wrote:
My group counts the damage as one attack. Off the top of my head, that means that it overcomes DR, I can't think of other benefits to that right now.
Attacking someone with Fire Shield, Thorn Body, or similar is a lot safer when you do all your damage in a single attack.

Also makes Called Shots much more likely to go flying past "Called" category and go straight to Debilitating.

Forget Quivering Palm, Pummeling Style can let you do a Five-Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique in a pretty hilarious way.


Are called shots a thing again?


Doomed Hero wrote:
Are called shots a thing again?

They are an optional rule, but not a standard rule.


Why wouldnt they just rule it in the same way as Clustered Shot does?


Dracoknight wrote:

Why wouldnt they just rule it in the same way as Clustered Shot does?

Maybe because unarmed combat needs the boost more than ranged combat does. Remember, we're dealing with exciting crit on 20 weapons here...


graystone wrote:
Dracoknight wrote:

Why wouldnt they just rule it in the same way as Clustered Shot does?

Maybe because unarmed combat needs the boost more than ranged combat does. Remember, we're dealing with exciting crit on 20 weapons here...

20/x2 Crit, at that.

Longbows at least get 20/x3, which is the same statistical damage output as 19-20/x2.

Unarmed Strikes get the Ron-Jeremy-level shaft when it comes to Critical Hits without Pummeling Style, by having the lowest chance AND the lowest multiplier.

Pummeling Style plays into stats a bit more by using the fact that even though you only have a 1:20 chance of rolling critical on ONE hit, the closer you get to 20 rolls, the more-assured you are of scoring a 20 on at least ONE of those rolls.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Unarmed strike static bonuses and damage die are both better than a bows when you are dealing with monks.


Mahtobedis wrote:
Unarmed strike static bonuses and damage die are both better than a bows when you are dealing with monks.

Unarmed has better static bonuses than a bow? How about number of attacks? Range?

About the only thing unarmed has as a bonus it it's bigger base monk damage.

Grand Lodge

I'm asking because there's a new feat in Heroes of the Wild. It's essentially a Style Feat that equates to Wheeling Charge for melee characters (without a mount, obviously)--i.e. it lets you charge through allies and around corners. It has the caveat of only working with a single melee attack and specifically calls out not working with Pounce. Unfortunately it doesn't say anything about not working with Pummeling Style/Charge. I'm at work now and don't have the specific wording of the feat with me (and as far as I can tell the community sites don't have it up yet, either).

So it's pretty clear, to me, that Pummeling Style is one attack. I didn't ask this question in the first post because the entirety of the combination hinges one whether or not Pummeling Style is actually one attack. Unless someone beats me to it, I'll post the actual text of the feat later tonight.


"you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch"
"adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls"
"If it succeeds, the entire attack is a confirmed critical hit"

Literal reading strongly suggests it is a singular attack (with multiple attack rolls).

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Dracoknight wrote:

Why wouldnt they just rule it in the same way as Clustered Shot does?

Clustered Shot is a bad comparison.

Dead Shot is much more accurate.


How would precision damage or flaming be added to the attack? Would it be once, or once for each attack?

What ever your answer to that is, I think, should be the same answer to the OP's question.


Komoda wrote:

How would precision damage or flaming be added to the attack? Would it be once, or once for each attack?

What ever your answer to that is, I think, should be the same answer to the OP's question.

If it is a property of the attack (the weapon) it gets added multiple times.

If it is a property of the hit (the resolution of the attack) it gets added once.

if it is unspecified it is up to the GM.

Scarab Sages

If you have an effect that procs on a confirmed crit such as Hungry Ghost Monk or Ki Leech if you have 4 hits in a Pummeling Style attack, and then confirm your confirmation roll allowing all four hits to crit, do you regain one point of Ki or four?


Imbicatus wrote:
If you have an effect that procs on a confirmed crit such as Hungry Ghost Monk or Ki Leech if you have 4 hits in a Pummeling Style attack, and then confirm your confirmation roll allowing all four hits to crit, do you regain one point of Ki or four?

One. It is a single crit.

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