Finally Unchained was release, so i come here for builds advices for new rogue unchained version? what u think?
might be a bit of a wait--folks are still toying around with it i assume.
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Huh, that's an excellent combo. I knew about the twist away feat, but the ring.. nice! If/when I make my tengu rogue I'll have to keep that one in mind.
As far as builds go, dex fighting just a big upgrade (pretty much mandatory now) with free Finesse and dex-to-damage with a single weapon. I'd suggest stacking up dex and going either a race with natural attacks (tiefling gives 2x claws and immunity to charm/dominate person, or tiefling for claw/claw/bite), or another race that bumps up dex.
Really though, nothing build-wise has changed; you get free finesse/slashing grace, but most rogue builds already went that route. The debilitating strikes are also awesome, but not build-around. They're just addons. Granted, getting Bewildered and taking Antagonize/In Harm's Way as feats could be pretty useful.
Huh, that's an excellent combo. I knew about the twist away feat, but the ring.. nice! If/when I make my tengu rogue I'll have to keep that one in mind.
As far as builds go, dex fighting just a big upgrade (pretty much mandatory now) with free Finesse and dex-to-damage with a single weapon. I'd suggest stacking up dex and going either a race with natural attacks (tiefling gives 2x claws and immunity to charm/dominate person, or tiefling for claw/claw/bite), or another race that bumps up dex.
Really though, nothing build-wise has changed; you get free finesse/slashing grace, but most rogue builds already went that route. The debilitating strikes are also awesome, but not build-around. They're just addons. Granted, getting Bewildered and taking Antagonize/In Harm's Way as feats could be pretty useful.
How do you get claw/claw/bite for a Tiefling?
I'm pretty sure he meant Tengu since he'd already mentioned Tieflings.
How do you get claw/claw/bite for a Tiefling?
Easiest way for a tiefling to get claw/claw/bite I think is "Maw or Claw" alternative racial trait and selecting the two 1d4 claws; and pick up Adopted social trait in order to pick up the Tusked race trait.
I'm pretty sure he meant Tengu since he'd already mentioned Tieflings.
How do you get claw/claw/bite for a Tiefling?
Bummer. I thought that there was a cool option that I had overlooked.
reposting form the UC rogue general discussion thread:
So i've been fiddling around with things for the unchained rogue, and here's what I've come up with:
Spoiler:half-elf unchained rogue 20
FCB: 18 human (+3 talents), 2 hp
Alt racials: dual-minded (+2 will)example stats (dex>cha>con=wis>int>str)
base: str 10, dex 16 (5+2r), con 14 (5), int 10, wis 14 (5), cha 14 (5)
final: str 16, dex 32, con 20, int 16, wis 20, cha 24
+5 dex (level), +6 all (gear), +5 dex/+4 cha (book/wish)traits - river rat/reactionary
edges
5 - stealth
10 - perception
15 - sleight of hand
20 - escape artisttalents
2 - combat trick (TWF)
4 - minor magic (detect magic at-will)
6 - fast stealth
6* - major magic (chill touch 8/day)
8 - ninja trick (pressure points)
10 - double debilitation
12 - slippery mind
12* - crippling strike
14 - opportunist
16 - improved evasion
18 - ???
18* - ???
20 - ???feats
1 - skill focus (stealth)
1* - weapon finesse (dagger/???/??? +D2D)
3 - eldritch heritage (shadow 1)
5 - steadfast personality
7 - hellcat stealth
9 - ITWF
11 - improved eldritch heritage (shadow 9)
13 - dampen presence
15 - ???
17 - ???
19 - ???
-pretty much always attacks touch after level 6 (helps offset TWF penalties and low bab)
-can inflict 2 debilitations + stat damage (str or dex) on sneak attacks
-has HiPS light+dark+blindsight/sense at levels 7, 11, and 13 respectively, moves full speed during stealth at no penalty, and the stealth-break sneak attacks last all turn instead of a single attack (depending on stealth ranks).
-fairly MAD, but gets both wis and cha to will saves as well as slippery mind.kinda lowish on accuracy, but after activating chill touch and you get an AC debilitation on them you're all set for the most part.
the build becomes MUCH more flexible with the action economy rework, since he could [move or step+stealth]+[TWF]+[ITWF] for four sneak attacks and loads of debuffs pretty much every round.
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Thoughts? suggestions? any glaring flaws i missed?
edit: fixed
Combat wise, has he unchained rogue caught up to or surpassed the Investigator?
i was considering vmc, but it took too many feats away (turns out stealth is pretty intensive!) to really justify it.
Combat wise, has he unchained rogue caught up to or surpassed the Investigator?He can't surpass the investigator. The investigator has "spells"(extracts). The alchemist spell list is a very nice one.
Is the unchained rogue solid tho? Yeah Unchained rogue is a solid mid tier 4.
Minor and Major Magic do give it nice magic-y tricks, though.
It's pretty nice for battlefield control now.
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VMC for classes that get a lot of bonus feats is a great option, and the unchained rogue is one of those classes. Between rogue talents reproducing feats and the lack of feats required to make a build work, even getting something like fighter VMC for armour and weapon training become decent options.
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Combat wise, has he unchained rogue caught up to or surpassed the Investigator?He can't surpass the investigator. The investigator has "spells"(extracts). The alchemist spell list is a very nice one.
Is the unchained rogue solid tho? Yeah Unchained rogue is a solid mid tier 4.
Minor and Major Magic do give it nice magic-y tricks, though.
It's pretty nice for battlefield control now.
I do agree with that, personally, I love everything about the new rogue , I was just setting the Poshment expectation, at a more realistic level that's all.
Debuff rogue. Enforcer feat + Cruel enchant + Debilitating Injury for -4 to attack, saves, skills, ability checks, and -2 to weapon damage on top of the penalties from Debilitating. Don't feel like getting hit? How's a -10 total penalty to attacks against you sound? Want to stack it all in one round? Trade Cruel for the Thug archetype's Brutal Beating ability.
All that on top of your sick sneak attack beats, made more awesome with stuff like Sap Adept and Knockout Artist. Feels like it's got potential...
You can't take the Thug archetype on an unchained Rogue, as they no longer have Trap Sense.
Unless there's been a ruling which says Unchained Rogues can swap out Danger Sense for archetypes which previously swapped Trap Sense? That'd be great if there was..
Debuff rogue. Enforcer feat + Cruel enchant + Debilitating Injury for -4 to attack, saves, skills, ability checks, and -2 to weapon damage on top of the penalties from Debilitating. Don't feel like getting hit? How's a -10 total penalty to attacks against you sound? Want to stack it all in one round? Trade Cruel for the Thug archetype's Brutal Beating ability.
All that on top of your sick sneak attack beats, made more awesome with stuff like Sap Adept and Knockout Artist. Feels like it's got potential...
You can't take the Thug archetype on an unchained Rogue, as they no longer have Trap Sense.
Unless there's been a ruling which says Unchained Rogues can swap out Danger Sense for archetypes which previously swapped Trap Sense? That'd be great if there was..
It's specifically stated in the book.
I just noticed that sneak attack is now only spoiled by total concealment, not just concealment. That's pretty big, isn't it?
Ghorrin Redblade
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Curious - is that now true of all sneak attack (ninja/slayer/snakebite striker etc) - or only that done by unchained rogues?I just noticed that sneak attack is now only spoiled by total concealment, not just concealment. That's pretty big, isn't it?
Ghorrin Redblade
As written, only unchained rogues.
It's specifically stated in the book.
You can't take the Thug archetype on an unchained Rogue, as they no longer have Trap Sense.Unless there's been a ruling which says Unchained Rogues can swap out Danger Sense for archetypes which previously swapped Trap Sense? That'd be great if there was..
Hi Mark,
I had a good look through my book (which arrived yesterday), and the bit I read about previous archetypes in the classes introduction said on p.8:
"these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace."
I read that passage to mean that the unchained rogue would not be eligible for any rogue archetype which replaces Trap Sense, as they no longer have that class ability (they have something better, called Danger Sense). Am I reading that passage correctly?
Thanks,
Steve
If I was running a home game, I'd just say you lose Danger Sense instead, but I play nearly all my Pathfinder in PFS, so I don't have that freedom.
EDIT EDIT EDIT!!!
Argh!!!
I found the section you're talking about Mark, under Danger Sense on page 22!!
Sorry!!
It's specifically stated in the book.
You can't take the Thug archetype on an unchained Rogue, as they no longer have Trap Sense.Unless there's been a ruling which says Unchained Rogues can swap out Danger Sense for archetypes which previously swapped Trap Sense? That'd be great if there was..
Hi Mark,
I had a good look through my book (which arrived yesterday), and the bit I read about previous archetypes in the classes introduction said on p.8:
"these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace."I read that passage to mean that the unchained rogue would not be eligible for any rogue archetype which replaces Trap Sense, as they no longer have that class ability (they have something better, called Danger Sense). Am I reading that passage correctly?
Thanks,
SteveIf I was running a home game, I'd just say you lose Danger Sense instead, but I play nearly all my Pathfinder in PFS, so I don't have that freedom.
Heya Steve. It's in Danger Sense itself:
This ability counts as trap sense for any feat or class prerequisite, and can be replaced by any archetype class feature that replaces trap sense.
I just found it (I edited my post above).
Sorry, failure to find, select and retrieve information on my part. And me being a teacher and all... (hangs head in shame).
In the Danger Sense text it specifically says that it acts as Trap Sense for the purpose of archetypes and whatnot.
Mark, as long as you're lurking about, can you clarify if the sneak attack concealment change is for all SA-usong classes?
Thanks.
Ghorrin Redblade
Mark, as long as you're lurking about, can you clarify if the sneak attack concealment change is for all SA-usong classes?
Thanks.
Ghorrin Redblade
That was actually FAQed before the book came out. It's a special benefit for the Unchained rogue only.
I just noticed that sneak attack is now only spoiled by total concealment, not just concealment. That's pretty big, isn't it?
Ghorrin Redblade
Yup. Means a thug in an alley isnt a total pushover anymore.
Yup. Means a thug in an alley isnt a total pushover anymore.I just noticed that sneak attack is now only spoiled by total concealment, not just concealment. That's pretty big, isn't it?
Ghorrin Redblade
but only if he's a rogue, not a slayer.
(it's not as if a slayer doesnt get his own tricks though.)
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Yup. Means a thug in an alley isnt a total pushover anymore.I just noticed that sneak attack is now only spoiled by total concealment, not just concealment. That's pretty big, isn't it?
Ghorrin Redblade
but only if he's a rogue, not a slayer.
(it's not as if a slayer doesnt get his own tricks though.)
Unless said slayer burns a feat. Basically the unchained rogue got Shadow Strike for free.
Curious though - what about an unchained rogue who dips into another SA class? (A level or two in Snakebite Striker probably isn't a bad choice.) Would all of their SA work in concealment, or only that from unchained rogue levels?
It's specifically stated in the book.Debuff rogue. Enforcer feat + Cruel enchant + Debilitating Injury for -4 to attack, saves, skills, ability checks, and -2 to weapon damage on top of the penalties from Debilitating. Don't feel like getting hit? How's a -10 total penalty to attacks against you sound? Want to stack it all in one round? Trade Cruel for the Thug archetype's Brutal Beating ability.
All that on top of your sick sneak attack beats, made more awesome with stuff like Sap Adept and Knockout Artist. Feels like it's got potential...
You can't take the Thug archetype on an unchained Rogue, as they no longer have Trap Sense.
Unless there's been a ruling which says Unchained Rogues can swap out Danger Sense for archetypes which previously swapped Trap Sense? That'd be great if there was..
I've done almost exactly this build!
And yes, the book specifically states that anything that effects, modified, or replaces trap sense also effects, modifies, or replaces danger sense.
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Finally Unchained was release, so i come here for builds advices for new rogue unchained version? what u think?
I posted two Unchained Rogue builds here:
Unchained Rogue BuildsFeel free to give some ideas and post your builds on this thread! I love the new rogue:)
reposting form the UC rogue general discussion thread:There's one glaring hole in your build, the Shadowstrike ability of the Shadow Bloodline, requires a standard action to use. You can't do this as part of a full attack action....So i've been fiddling around with things for the unchained rogue, and here's what I've come up with:** spoiler omitted **
-pretty much always attacks touch after level 6 (helps offset TWF penalties and low bab)
-can inflict 2 debilitations + stat damage (str or dex) on sneak attacks
-has HiPS light+dark+blindsight/sense at levels 7, 11, and 13 respectively, moves full speed during stealth at no penalty, and the stealth-break sneak attacks last all turn instead of a single attack (depending on stealth ranks).
-fairly MAD, but gets both wis and cha to will saves as well as slippery mind.kinda lowish on accuracy, but after activating chill touch and you get an AC debilitation on them you're all set for the most part.
the build becomes MUCH more flexible with the action economy rework, since he could [move or step+stealth]+[TWF]+[ITWF] for four sneak attacks and loads of debuffs pretty much every round.
- - - - -
i dont remember saying that shadowstrike would actually be USED.
the bloodline/EH feats are literally there to get HiPS for darkness (from the levle 9 bloodline ability). alternatively one could spend the same number of feats and dip 1 in shadowdancer to the same effect, but that slows the build down. using the stealth skill to hide as part of a move action is in the vanilla rules, if memory serves, and having HiPS lets you do so even if observed.
hence, [stealth+move] followed by two attack actions (each being 2 attacks with TWF). though this comment was made talking about the unchained action economy overhaul.
admittedly you'd only be sneak-attacking on the first one (until you get your stealth unlock high enough), but it'd let you debilitate the enemy to hit them easier with the rest of your attacks (even moreso if you set up chill touch beforehand), while positioning yourself without much fear of retaliation (can't AoO what you cant see, etc.)
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reposting form the UC rogue general discussion thread:There's one glaring hole in your build, the Shadowstrike ability of the Shadow Bloodline, requires a standard action to use. You can't do this as part of a full attack action....So i've been fiddling around with things for the unchained rogue, and here's what I've come up with:** spoiler omitted **
-pretty much always attacks touch after level 6 (helps offset TWF penalties and low bab)
-can inflict 2 debilitations + stat damage (str or dex) on sneak attacks
-has HiPS light+dark+blindsight/sense at levels 7, 11, and 13 respectively, moves full speed during stealth at no penalty, and the stealth-break sneak attacks last all turn instead of a single attack (depending on stealth ranks).
-fairly MAD, but gets both wis and cha to will saves as well as slippery mind.kinda lowish on accuracy, but after activating chill touch and you get an AC debilitation on them you're all set for the most part.
the build becomes MUCH more flexible with the action economy rework, since he could [move or step+stealth]+[TWF]+[ITWF] for four sneak attacks and loads of debuffs pretty much every round.
- - - - -
i dont remember saying that shadowstrike would actually be USED.
the bloodline/EH feats are literally there to get HiPS for darkness (from the levle 9 bloodline ability). alternatively one could spend the same number of feats and dip 1 in shadowdancer to the same effect, but that slows the build down. using the stealth skill to hide as part of a move action is in the vanilla rules, if memory serves, and having HiPS lets you do so even if observed.
hence, [stealth+move] followed by two attack actions (each being 2 attacks with TWF). though this comment was made talking about the unchained action economy overhaul.
admittedly you'd only be sneak-attacking on the first one (until you get your stealth unlock high enough), but it'd let you debilitate...
Can you post a full build / Stat block somewhere (or link it if you already have)? Id like to take a look at your build
...reposting form the UC rogue general discussion thread:There's one glaring hole in your build, the Shadowstrike ability of the Shadow Bloodline, requires a standard action to use. You can't do this as part of a full attack action....So i've been fiddling around with things for the unchained rogue, and here's what I've come up with:** spoiler omitted **
-pretty much always attacks touch after level 6 (helps offset TWF penalties and low bab)
-can inflict 2 debilitations + stat damage (str or dex) on sneak attacks
-has HiPS light+dark+blindsight/sense at levels 7, 11, and 13 respectively, moves full speed during stealth at no penalty, and the stealth-break sneak attacks last all turn instead of a single attack (depending on stealth ranks).
-fairly MAD, but gets both wis and cha to will saves as well as slippery mind.kinda lowish on accuracy, but after activating chill touch and you get an AC debilitation on them you're all set for the most part.
the build becomes MUCH more flexible with the action economy rework, since he could [move or step+stealth]+[TWF]+[ITWF] for four sneak attacks and loads of debuffs pretty much every round.
- - - - -
i dont remember saying that shadowstrike would actually be USED.
the bloodline/EH feats are literally there to get HiPS for darkness (from the levle 9 bloodline ability). alternatively one could spend the same number of feats and dip 1 in shadowdancer to the same effect, but that slows the build down. using the stealth skill to hide as part of a move action is in the vanilla rules, if memory serves, and having HiPS lets you do so even if observed.
hence, [stealth+move] followed by two attack actions (each being 2 attacks with TWF). though this comment was made talking about the unchained action economy overhaul.
admittedly you'd only be sneak-attacking on the first one (until you get your stealth unlock high
if you mean a level-by-level thing, it's not gonna happen--though that build i posted up top has both starter and endgame stats, and the feats/talents/etc are all taken without retraining at all, so one could follow along with it.
only WBL guidelines would be offense = 45-50%, defense = 25-30%, miscellany/consumables = whatever's left. after having heard about it here on the forum's i'd proabably swap out a feat somewhere for twist away, and snag the ferocious action ring to help deal with fort saves.
Debuff rogue. Enforcer feat + Cruel enchant + Debilitating Injury for -4 to attack, saves, skills, ability checks, and -2 to weapon damage on top of the penalties from Debilitating. Don't feel like getting hit? How's a -10 total penalty to attacks against you sound? Want to stack it all in one round?
What is Cruel enchant?
Debuff rogue. Enforcer feat + Cruel enchant + Debilitating Injury for -4 to attack, saves, skills, ability checks, and -2 to weapon damage on top of the penalties from Debilitating. Don't feel like getting hit? How's a -10 total penalty to attacks against you sound? Want to stack it all in one round?What is Cruel enchant?
Cruel, the Weapon Enhancement
Cruel, the Weapon EnhancementDebuff rogue. Enforcer feat + Cruel enchant + Debilitating Injury for -4 to attack, saves, skills, ability checks, and -2 to weapon damage on top of the penalties from Debilitating. Don't feel like getting hit? How's a -10 total penalty to attacks against you sound? Want to stack it all in one round?What is Cruel enchant?
Ah okay. Thanks for clarifying.