White Haired Witch and Agile


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

If you have an Amulet of Mighty Fists with the Agile property, does the Witch's Hair add both Intelligence and Dexterity both to damage? Hero Lab says that it does and calculates it in but I'm not quite sure it works like that.

Relevant Text:

Agile wrote:

This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.

Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.

Hair wrote:
At 1st level, a white-haired witch gains the ability to use her hair as a weapon. This functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet. The hair deals 1d4 points of damage (1d3 for a Small witch) plus the witch’s Intelligence modifier.

Dark Archive

I'd believe it'd stack, yes.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Sin of Asmodeus wrote:
I'd believe it'd stack, yes.

What would be the reasoning for that? The hair attack doesn't normally deal plus strength, it just says that it deals plus intelligence. And the agile property lets you apply dex in place of strength. Wouldn't that mean that Agile, although hair qualifies for use with it as a natural attack that works with weapon finesse, wouldn't do anything?


No, it definitely wouldn't add both. It should only add Intelligence. Agile wouldn't do anything for the white-witch's hair.

Hero Labs is not official--it is just one guy's interpretation of how stuff works. There are plenty of mistakes.


thatcheriliff wrote:
Sin of Asmodeus wrote:
I'd believe it'd stack, yes.
What would be the reasoning for that? The hair attack doesn't normally deal plus strength, it just says that it deals plus intelligence. And the agile property lets you apply dex in place of strength. Wouldn't that mean that Agile, although hair qualifies for use with it as a natural attack that works with weapon finesse, wouldn't do anything?

Correct.


I'd say no, and also that there's better things to spend feats on than weapon finesse you'll never use.


Well, if you are going WHW anyway, you may want to use weapon finesse.

You could VMC Magus for swashbuckler stuff+grab a level of inspired swashbuckler+possibly go into EK. It'd be a high level, very feat intensive build, but you could control the battlefield pretty effectively with high DEX AoOs that grapple (and hence, stop your enemies in their tracks), and also deliver a few touch attacks while you are at it.


thatcheriliff wrote:

If you have an Amulet of Mighty Fists with the Agile property, does the Witch's Hair add both Intelligence and Dexterity both to damage? Hero Lab says that it does and calculates it in but I'm not quite sure it works like that.

Relevant Text:

Agile wrote:

This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.

Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.

Hair wrote:
At 1st level, a white-haired witch gains the ability to use her hair as a weapon. This functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet. The hair deals 1d4 points of damage (1d3 for a Small witch) plus the witch’s Intelligence modifier.

It's pretty clear-cut. Agile allows replacement for Dexterity instead of Strength. Since there's no Strength to replace, there's no Dexterity to be implemented.

Every effect that allows Dexterity to damage requires there to be a Strength modifier to begin with, and when there isn't a Strength modifier, the effect can't be applied.


Agile lets you replace Str with Dex... but since you're not applying Str to the Hair in the first place, you have no Str modifier to replace with Dex. Thus, the Agile property doesn't help.

AKA, I completely agree with thatcheriliff, Gisher, Darksol, etc.


LoneKnave wrote:

Well, if you are going WHW anyway, you may want to use weapon finesse.

You could VMC Magus for swashbuckler stuff+grab a level of inspired swashbuckler+possibly go into EK. It'd be a high level, very feat intensive build, but you could control the battlefield pretty effectively with high DEX AoOs that grapple (and hence, stop your enemies in their tracks), and also deliver a few touch attacks while you are at it.

I dunno. A witch magus combo seems like you're intelligence dependant anyways.


The problem is that rules as written, the WHW doesn't get INT to hit, only to damage and combat maneuvers. So Finesse is still really useful for getting the initial hit in for your free grab attempt.


Honestly I didn't know that. There's a few issues with that archtype.

Liberty's Edge

LoneKnave wrote:

Well, if you are going WHW anyway, you may want to use weapon finesse.

You could VMC Magus for swashbuckler stuff+grab a level of inspired swashbuckler+possibly go into EK. It'd be a high level, very feat intensive build, but you could control the battlefield pretty effectively with high DEX AoOs that grapple (and hence, stop your enemies in their tracks), and also deliver a few touch attacks while you are at it.

Well I am working on a Brawler (Strangler) and WHW build. Pretty neat actually. Its mostly Brawler. The constrict and hair grab combined with the brawler's Strangle works out pretty well. And the CMB is pretty high. Just trying to iron out how a few of the mechanics works with the WHW.


PRD

Natural Attacks wrote:

Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.

Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.

You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.

White Hair (Su)

Quote:
At 1st level, a white-haired witch gains the ability to use her hair as a weapon. This functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet. The hair deals 1d4 points of damage (1d3 for a Small witch) plus the witch’s Intelligence modifier. In addition, whenever the hair strikes a foe, the witch can attempt to grapple that foe with her hair as a free action* without provoking an attack of opportunity, using her Intelligence modifier in place of her Strength modifier when making the combat maneuver check. When a white-haired witch grapples a foe in this way, she does not gain the grappled condition.

RAW: You get 1.5*Str + Int

Therefore the Agile Amulet gives 1.5*Dex + Int

Consider natural attacks like claws, gore, bite do not list Str as part of their damage normally, why should the hair attack call it out? It should instead call it out if you don't get it.

/cevah


Cevah wrote:
Consider natural attacks like claws, gore, bite do not list Str as part of their damage normally, why should the hair attack call it out? It should instead call it out if you don't get it.

It did get called out, by stating that you add Intelligence to the damage. You do not add Strength AND Intelligence by default--I'm not aware of any attack that adds two stats in Pathfinder. There is an unwritten, but heavily implied rule that you only add one stat to your damage, so, by listing a stat, it is obviously implied that no other stat applies.


I don't know. Looking at the rules as written I have to agree with Cevah.
It says this functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 ft. (stop) When you look at primary attacks:

srd wrote:
are made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and add the creature’s full Strength bonus on damage rolls.

Then it breaks down how much damage it does with an added bonus (the witch's intelligence modifier)


mplindustries wrote:
Cevah wrote:
Consider natural attacks like claws, gore, bite do not list Str as part of their damage normally, why should the hair attack call it out? It should instead call it out if you don't get it.
It did get called out, by stating that you add Intelligence to the damage. You do not add Strength AND Intelligence by default--I'm not aware of any attack that adds two stats in Pathfinder. There is an unwritten, but heavily implied rule that you only add one stat to your damage, so, by listing a stat, it is obviously implied that no other stat applies.

It does not say Int instead of Str. RAI may be as you say. RAW is not.

/cevah

Grand Lodge

It also does not say the 1d4 replaces the attacks damage dice. So you are saying it deals 1d6 + 1.5*STR + 1d4 +INT?

It says the hair deals 1d4 + INT. That replaces the natural attack damage block.


Actually, where do you get the 1d6 from? Nowhere does it say ALL primary attacks deal 1d6. 1d4 IS the attack dice.


FLite wrote:

It also does not say the 1d4 replaces the attacks damage dice. So you are saying it deals 1d6 + 1.5*STR + 1d4 +INT?

It says the hair deals 1d4 + INT. That replaces the natural attack damage block.

As LoneKnave said, where do you get the 1d6 from?

Natural Attacks by Size lists a number of forms. Hair is not one of them. "Other" for a medium has 1d4. Add in specific overrides general, and you get the 1d4+Int as the base damage of the attack that Str is added to.

/cevah

Grand Lodge

No, 1d4 + INT is replacing the whole damage block.

So you are saying the anaconda coils, which grant the user constrict for 1d6 + str actually deal 1d6 + STR + STR?

Lesser spirit totem lets the barbarian make an additional strike at 1d4 + Charisma + Strength?

Basically whenever an attack uses an alternate stat, it is written as Dice + Stat which replaces the Dice + Str of the original attack.


FLite wrote:

No, 1d4 + INT is replacing the whole damage block.

So you are saying the anaconda coils, which grant the user constrict for 1d6 + str actually deal 1d6 + STR + STR?

see constrict rules here

FLite wrote:
Lesser spirit totem lets the barbarian make an additional strike at 1d4 + Charisma + Strength?

Not a natural attack or a weapon attack at all, why would he add STR?


The Prehensile Hair hex has a specific damage formula, which is 1D4 (or 1D3) + Intelligence. We know this is specifically tailored (pun intended) to the hex because there is no other attack types that the ability covers.

The general rule for natural weapon attacks is XDY (based on limb) + Strength.

Specific Trumps General.

Done.

Now can we please stop making lactose-intolerant bombs from all the cheese that's going on here?


FLite wrote:

No, 1d4 + INT is replacing the whole damage block.

So you are saying the anaconda coils, which grant the user constrict for 1d6 + str actually deal 1d6 + STR + STR?

1) There is a FAQ that states you can only add a stat mod once.

2) The stat block is shown after applying the creature's static Str mod. The WHW does not come with a static Str, so how can it apply it.

FLite wrote:
Lesser spirit totem lets the barbarian make an additional strike at 1d4 + Charisma + Strength?

1) See above

2) Where did Cha come from? LBT lists Str.

FLite wrote:
Basically whenever an attack uses an alternate stat, it is written as Dice + Stat which replaces the Dice + Str of the original attack.

Toothy half-orcs list "This is a primary natural attack that deals 1d4 points of piercing damage."

Catfolk with Cat's Claws have "These claws are primary attacks that deal 1d4 points of damage."

Do you think they do not get Str with these?

/cevah


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

The Prehensile Hair hex has a specific damage formula, which is 1D4 (or 1D3) + Intelligence. We know this is specifically tailored (pun intended) to the hex because there is no other attack types that the ability covers.

The general rule for natural weapon attacks is XDY (based on limb) + Strength.

Specific Trumps General.

Done.

Now can we please stop making lactose-intolerant bombs from all the cheese that's going on here?

You must be REALLY lactose intolerant if you think adding INT to damage on an INT based class is cheesy.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

The Prehensile Hair hex has a specific damage formula, which is 1D4 (or 1D3) + Intelligence. We know this is specifically tailored (pun intended) to the hex because there is no other attack types that the ability covers.

The general rule for natural weapon attacks is XDY (based on limb) + Strength.

Specific Trumps General.

Done.

Now can we please stop making lactose-intolerant bombs from all the cheese that's going on here?

Not done. Prehensile Hair hex =/= WHW Prehensile Hair.

We are discussing the latter.

/cevah

EDIT: Added links

Grand Lodge

Cevah wrote:
FLite wrote:

No, 1d4 + INT is replacing the whole damage block.

So you are saying the anaconda coils, which grant the user constrict for 1d6 + str actually deal 1d6 + STR + STR?

1) There is a FAQ that states you can only add a stat mod once.

2) The stat block is shown after applying the creature's static Str mod. The WHW does not come with a static Str, so how can it apply it.

Anaconda coils is a magical belt

Cevah wrote:
FLite wrote:
Lesser spirit totem lets the barbarian make an additional strike at 1d4 + Charisma + Strength?

1) See above

2) Where did Cha come from? LBT lists Str.

spirit totem

Cevah wrote:
FLite wrote:
Basically whenever an attack uses an alternate stat, it is written as Dice + Stat which replaces the Dice + Str of the original attack.

Toothy half-orcs list "This is a primary natural attack that deals 1d4 points of piercing damage."

Catfolk with Cat's Claws have "These claws are primary attacks that deal 1d4 points of damage."

Do you think they do not get Str with these?

/cevah

because they don't replace str. Please *read* before responding.

Basically whenever an attack uses an alternate stat, it is written as Dice + Stat which replaces the Dice + Str of the original attack.


LoneKnave wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

The Prehensile Hair hex has a specific damage formula, which is 1D4 (or 1D3) + Intelligence. We know this is specifically tailored (pun intended) to the hex because there is no other attack types that the ability covers.

The general rule for natural weapon attacks is XDY (based on limb) + Strength.

Specific Trumps General.

Done.

Now can we please stop making lactose-intolerant bombs from all the cheese that's going on here?

You must be REALLY lactose intolerant if you think adding STR to damage on an INT based class is cheesy.

Fixed it for you.

And when you use rules outside of their intention (but still technically legal by RAW), it results in cheese. Cheese is cheese is cheese, no matter how big or small the slice.

@ Cevah: So they're separate abilities; my mistake. But my point still stands: The White Hair ability has a specific formula to calculate its damage that supersedes the general rule of it otherwise being a Strength-based natural weapon. Except for the rules cited in the ability, it does resort to general rules in regards for calculating your bonuses to hit AC (but not for Combat Maneuvers).


How do you know the intention? There's nothing here saying the designer went "jolly, I sure hope the witch doesn't get to add both STR and INT!".


@FLite: I did read your text. I looked up Anaconda, and then Constrict. I misread the rage power. My fault for looking up the wrong things. They should be Anaconda's Coils and Lesser Spirit Totem. It helps to get the correct thing if you link them.
Belt: same answer applies as before
Rage: Since no Str score is given for the spirits, they have a Str mod of 0 by default. Adding 0 to the value does not change the value. So, yeah, they get Die + Str + Cha. Remember, the power has the Spirits attack, not you, so uses their Str not yours.

@Darksol the Painbringer: Both abilities have specific rules. These rules are different. That is why I linked both: read the differences. The WHW ability does NOT replace Str with Int. The Hex does.

/cevah

Grand Lodge

Cevah wrote:

@FLite: I did read your text. I looked up Anaconda, and then Constrict. I misread the rage power. My fault for looking up the wrong things. They should be Anaconda's Coils and Lesser Spirit Totem. It helps to get the correct thing if you link them.

Belt: same answer applies as before
Rage: Since no Str score is given for the spirits, they have a Str mod of 0 by default. Adding 0 to the value does not change the value. So, yeah, they get Die + Str + Cha. Remember, the power has the Spirits attack, not you, so uses their Str not yours.

@Darksol the Painbringer: Both abilities have specific rules. These rules are different. That is why I linked both: read the differences. The WHW ability does NOT replace Str with Int. The Hex does.

/cevah

Actually, if something has no str score, it has a bonus of -5.

So that would radically change the damage.


FLite wrote:

Actually, if something has no str score, it has a bonus of -5.

So that would radically change the damage.

PRD:

strength wrote:
Some creatures do not possess a Strength score and have no modifier at all to Strength-based skills or checks.

A score of 0 has a mod of -5.

A score of - has a mod of 0.

Not the same.

/cevah

EDIT: PRD ref.


Cevah wrote:

@FLite: I did read your text. I looked up Anaconda, and then Constrict. I misread the rage power. My fault for looking up the wrong things. They should be Anaconda's Coils and Lesser Spirit Totem. It helps to get the correct thing if you link them.

Belt: same answer applies as before
Rage: Since no Str score is given for the spirits, they have a Str mod of 0 by default. Adding 0 to the value does not change the value. So, yeah, they get Die + Str + Cha. Remember, the power has the Spirits attack, not you, so uses their Str not yours.

@Darksol the Painbringer: Both abilities have specific rules. These rules are different. That is why I linked both: read the differences. The WHW ability does NOT replace Str with Int. The Hex does.

/cevah

Prehensile Hair wrote:
The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length, and can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score. Her hair has reach 10 feet, and she can use it as a secondary natural attack that deals 1d3 points of damage (1d2 for a Small witch). Her hair can manipulate objects (but not weapons) as dexterously as a human hand.

It's actually still a Strength bonus, because the Strength score for the hair is equal to the caster's Intelligence score, not the actual Intelligence statistic itself (the same way you can get a Deflection Bonus to AC equal to your Charisma modifier).

So, the Hex doesn't substitute Strength, it simply makes the Strength for the Hair equal to the user's Intelligence. The Archetype does substitute Strength modifier for Intelligence modifier, meaning you're not getting 2 stats to damage. You do technically still use your Strength score for attack rolls, as it's still a melee attack, though you use your Intelligence modifier for grappling and the such, and that's a specific modifier replacement, further supporting my case of it overruling the general assumption that it's a (purely) Strength-based attack.

Of course, since it is a natural weapon, you can Finnesse it to use Dexterity to hit instead, but that wouldn't apply to the grapple check.


I think he's talking about White hair and not Prehensile Hair Darksol.


graystone wrote:
I think he's talking about White hair and not Prehensile Hair Darksol.

Well no duh. He's said that twice now. And I've addressed his statement regarding each (both hex and archetype).

I corrected his statement of the Hex replacing Strength with Intelligence by stating it's actually still Strength, it's just a modified Strength, which is equal to the Hex user's Intelligence score. This means that the Hex could carry very heavy objects to attack with, such as weapons (and deal damage with those weapons), whereas the White Hair would not, and this could also be a weapon that, if dipped with the likes of Swashbuckler, could be used with Slashing Grace. (Key word: could.)

The White Hair archetype would not function in regards to both of those subjects, as it actually replaces Strength with Intelligence for damage and grapple checks (though technically not attack rolls).

In any case, the White Hair archetype specifics overrule the general consensus of melee attacks using Strength Modifier(s) for damage, but since there is no specific mention of the White Hair archetype replacing Strength for attack rolls, that general rule still applies.


I would houserule the player could replace INT with DEX for this, but stacking clearly has been debunked.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
graystone wrote:
I think he's talking about White hair and not Prehensile Hair Darksol.
Well no duh. He's said that twice now. And I've addressed his statement regarding each (both hex and archetype).

And you have expounded upon the hex again when the OP is about the archetype.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

The White Hair archetype would not function in regards to both of those subjects, as it actually replaces Strength with Intelligence for damage and grapple checks (though technically not attack rolls).

In any case, the White Hair archetype specifics overrule the general consensus of melee attacks using Strength Modifier(s) for damage, but since there is no specific mention of the White Hair archetype replacing Strength for attack rolls, that general rule still applies.

Please cite. I see damage as 1d4+IntMod for a primary natural attack.

A primary natural attack gets 1.5*Str extra damage.
The archetype does not call out not using Str nor using Int in place of Str. You need such a call out to invoke specific vs. general.

/cevah


Quote:
I'm not aware of any attack that adds two stats in Pathfinder. There is an unwritten, but heavily implied rule that you only add one stat to your damage, so, by listing a stat, it is obviously implied that no other stat applies.

These Feats do just that:

Kraken Style: Add Wis to grapple damage, which adds Str.
Kraken Throttle: ditto
Kraken Wrack: ditto

I am sure there are more out there.

/cevah


Cevah wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
graystone wrote:
I think he's talking about White hair and not Prehensile Hair Darksol.
Well no duh. He's said that twice now. And I've addressed his statement regarding each (both hex and archetype).

And you have expounded upon the hex again when the OP is about the archetype.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

The White Hair archetype would not function in regards to both of those subjects, as it actually replaces Strength with Intelligence for damage and grapple checks (though technically not attack rolls).

In any case, the White Hair archetype specifics overrule the general consensus of melee attacks using Strength Modifier(s) for damage, but since there is no specific mention of the White Hair archetype replacing Strength for attack rolls, that general rule still applies.

Please cite. I see damage as 1d4+IntMod for a primary natural attack.

A primary natural attack gets 1.5*Str extra damage.
The archetype does not call out not using Str nor using Int in place of Str. You need such a call out to invoke specific vs. general.

/cevah

I've expounded upon both, primarily because I thought they were the same, and I was mistaken. I expounded on the hex one last time as you made a mistake in regards to its interaction with Strength, calling it out as a statistic substitution, when it actually wasn't. Let this be the last time we discuss the hex, then.

As for the SVG call out, not really. In the Kraken feat chain, it explicitly calls out that it stacks with all other damage you deal as part of the grapple check.

If the precedent is that additions don't supersede the general case when it comes to ability modifiers, why would the Kraken feat chain have that unnecessary language? Quite frankly, there's no reason to implement it if the damage automatically stacks together, no questions asked.

There are other subjects that state you "Add your X modifier in addition to your Y modifier for Z," not just the Kraken feat chain (Intimidating Prowess, Iaijutsu, etc). It's much easier (and technically more cost-effective) to state "Add your X modifier for Z." Because there is no language that prevents you from adding your Y modifier.

Although this is the case you're making, when it comes to ability modifiers and stacking the different types, it needs to be explicitly stated you add both, as that's the typing precedent Paizo usually goes with. Since I don't see that precedent being followed here, surely you see my apprehension against your viewpoint.

That being said, if we come across a Witch that actually has a Strength score above a 12 or 14, then this may be a bigger deal. Until then, I think I'm overthinking this too much, so I'll just FAQ the OP and be on my way.


I think you underestimate the number of 1 or 2 level dips into WHW to get the hair for a natural weapons character. Mine is level 10 and has 5 attacks. The change would increase my hair attack by 5-7 pts per hit. That is significant when you are dealing with DR and have little ways to get around it.


GM Hills wrote:
I think you underestimate the number of 1 or 2 level dips into WHW to get the hair for a natural weapons character. Mine is level 10 and has 5 attacks. The change would increase my hair attack by 5-7 pts per hit. That is significant when you are dealing with DR and have little ways to get around it.

Natural Weapons are fairly weak anyway. The only time they're useful is in the lower levels, or if you have an Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 (which, unless you're using Inherent Leveling rules from Unchained, or are allowed to combine magic items, means you're sacrificing for it). They're also good for DMs to throw against their PCs, but that's because DR for PCs, unless you're a Barbarian, is unheard of.

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