dm4hire's page

Major update on my Dual Class document, bumping it to 2.0.

Besides redundancies still being eliminated I have added the Class Feat lists and Spells Per Day charts for all class combinations in the guide. I've also added in a section for alternative rules I hope to expand. Page count is now over 400.

As far as core material, I think that's the extent of what will be added until the APG is released and I can update the lists for corrective purposes. Will continue with redundancy fixes for now.

Link

If you buy the Bestiary for Fantasy Grounds, you get a token for almost every monster.

That's cool, but I'm using Foundry. Would like a set I could use with any system though.

Since VTTs are becoming more main stream I would love to see official pawn sets from Paizo designed for token use online. I would definitely pay so I could use them without having to create them myself first. Add it to my Paizo Christmas list!

In the /wizards advancement sections, you include a first level wizard feat. That is no longer the case.

Thanks, will fix that.

Version 1.2 is now up. New version has reduced a number of redundancies found through class advancement. I've added a page for variant rules, though for now there is only one for hit points. As always any feedback is welcome.

There's no need for Sage Advice, there's common sense and the rulebook that says:

Ambiguous Rules
Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is. If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.

Under normal circumstance I would agree. If it was just for my home campaign then we wouldn't even be having this discussion. However, I am putting together a document that must follow the RAW and so therefore needs the clarification.

It would have been nice if they would have given a complete step by step process with each step explained, but I understand they were limited by constraints. For them to have incorporated a complete class build in the book it would have taken at least 12 pages and most likely around 18-20 pages. My document is currently 240 pages, which is just the listing of initial traits and the advancement chart for each combination. If I incorporated all the class feats and regular class aspects the document would be humongous. So yeah, it would have been nice to have a complete break down, but I understand why they did it the way they did. I think it could use a rewrite to improve and fully explained the process to eliminate confusion.

When I started this project I figured it would be a quick document, taking a week or so to put together. There's a lot to clean up and figure out.

My immediate thought is that you're still including redundant features.

For example, Champion/Fighter gets lightning reflexes at 9, alertness at 11, and armor mastery at 17, despite all of these features doing nothing because you already have the proficiencies.

Also, the potential for 120-odd unique combo names like Hunter and Skald is a possibility...

I went through and fixed the first two types you pointed out so perception and saving throw enhancements that increase to expert have been removed for class combinations that start with expert.

I can't remove armor mastery as that increases defense in those categorizes to master. Same for armor expertise. I will look for redundancies of them though. So thanks again for pointing those out. I will upload the next version once I have eliminated all conflicts between class combinations I find.

dm4hire wrote:

Class feats don't conflict because they are specific to their given class.

Same for key abilities: when you pick a class, you add a boost to that stat. They are as specific to the class as feats are.

When you use multiclass rules you don't get to add a new bonus. It's a requirement you have to meet. You gain two misc bonuses from ancestry and background for that. Most builds if you aren't focusing on min/maxing can give you a 16 in two stats. That's more than enough to qualify for multiclass dedication and give a good build for dual classing.

dm4hire wrote:

However, if there are any redundancies that can't stack the player would have to choose a different class feat for one of the classes.

Just like you can't boost the same stat twice in the same step...

Yes

Yes, they are same source as they both come from a class benefit.

I don't see how, any more than class feats are from the same class benefit. So does a multiclass feat then not work with anything gained from your class as all are class features and by your theory everything granted by your class is the same source, even if it's from a different class?

Since you are dual classing as rogue and get 7+ skills beyond that one you would pick one of them and discard the other.

We're talking about an ability that gives you a skill. The rules for skills then comes into play under the dual class rules:

Source Gamemastery Guide pg. 193

A dual-class character gains the class feats and class features for both classes at each level as they advance, with the exception of ability boosts, general feats, skill feats, and skill increases—the character gets each of these benefits only once per level, since both classes would provide the same benefit. (A dual-class rogue/ranger still gets the extra skill feat and skill increase at levels where the other class doesn’t provide them.)
If a character gains the same proficiency rank in a statistic more than once, they still use only the highest rank. In the example above, when the cleric gets Alertness at 5th level, they wouldn’t change their Perception rank, since it was already expert due to the ranger’s initial proficiencies.

That means you can only increase a skill once per level. Any other skill gains from other class options are throw out. Though you could house rule they get a different skill for the other.

dm4hire wrote:

Since you are dual classing as rogue and get 7+ skills beyond that one you would pick one of them and discard the other.

Why? They aren't from the same class or feature. They aren't any different than say taking ancient elf at first and getting the Sorcerer Dedication that gives you the same intimidate: it a class feat too.

Yes you would toss it out or you would either adjust your skills and pick a different one in that case to replace the one your dedication gave you. You are still in character design. It doesn't bump your skill so you would either replace it or toss it out in the case of a conflict.

dm4hire wrote:

However you gained intimidate from your ancestry or background then you could replace it.

Where does it say that skills gained in the same step are exempt from the general rule? Where does it state that EVERYTHING from a class is the same source? Or that the entire class step is a source onto itself?

As cited above it's in the dual class rules. As @RJGrady points out 1st level is a level.

dm4hire wrote:

You have to remember that if you weren't dual classing there would be no conflict other than cases involving ancestry or background, in which case the rules allow for the swap.

I don't think I have to remember anything as you've failed to prove any conflict. What exactly constitutes a source: unless you come up with a concrete description of that that we all agree on, any argument that is based off of that is moot. No arguments that they are the same source sway me as you can't prove that they...

I agree there is no point in continuing to debate it at this point until an official rule clarification is provided. We have effectively established our camps. I'm fine if I end up being wrong since I initially was under the same interpretation. Hopefully Mark will answer my email or here or maybe Logan.

I disagree: multiple classes results in multiple sources. You add class feats even though they are both from class. It's really hard to point to same sources IMO as there is no formal description of a source: however, it's clear what the intent of that rule is and that's if you get granted the same skill that it's not wasted and you get another skill in it's stead.

Class feats don't conflict because they are specific to their given class. Any that may have similar traits would then work under standard multiclassing rules, but as worded refer to their specific class or the specific situation they are applied to. However, if there are any redundancies that can't stack the player would have to choose a different class feat for one of the classes. Example: Counter Spell for sorcerer/wizard doesn't increase so the player would choose a different class feat, most likely for wizard since the sorcerer version is spontaneous. Or could keep both and just be able to counter spell more often.

Secondly, would you argue that a rogue racket [Ruffian] that grants you trained in Intimidation and the Aberrant bloodline that grants training in Intimidation identical/same sources? They both come from a class so by your logic the same source. If not, what is the difference? Starting skills are as much a class feature as either racket or bloodline: "Initial Proficiencies" is listed right there under class features.

Yes, they are same source as they both come from a class benefit. Since you are dual classing as rogue and get 7+ skills beyond that one you would pick one of them and discard the other. You gain no others since the racket doesn't give you a choice. However you gained intimidate from your ancestry or background then you could replace it.

You have to remember that if you weren't dual classing there would be no conflict other than cases involving ancestry or background, in which case the rules allow for the swap.

dm4hire wrote:

However in the GMG for dual classing you throw out duplicate skills.

I don't think you do.

Building a Dual-Class Character Gamemastery Guide pg. 192

"For starting skills, apply the skills automatically granted by each class, and then apply the larger number of additional skills." IMO, the general rule about duplicate skills still applies.

Chapter 4: Skills Core Rulebook pg. 233

"Sometimes you might gain training in a specific skill from multiple sources, such as if your background granted training in Crafting and you took...

Class bonus isn't a multiple source, it's the same source. For support on the skills take a look at Pathbuilder. Try creating a druid/ranger. Both classes give nature as a skill. Ranger gets 4+Int extra skills, which gives more skills than druid. If you were right without adding anything to Int the remaining skills to pick would be 5, 4 + the replacement for nature. Pathbuilder lists it as 4. Nature is listed as trained, not bumped to expert and no additional skill choice is given. It's the same with champion/cleric who gets religion twice; it's only listed once with no free skill choice. This follows the rule where any duplicate from a class choices is tossed out.

Supporting our original assumption (as I stated in my first reply I thought you got both attributes as well) Pathbuilder, under class bonus, lists your first class choice for bonus and then lets you choose a second one. However, as I've been explaining I think that assumption is wrong and therefore inquiring about it.

Here's my overall logic in why you only get one stat bonus from the class combination (I've messaged Mark for ruling so if I'm wrong it will be an easy fix).

I'll use skills as an example since it's fully explainable.

Per CRB if you would gain a skill from background or class that you have already you may trade it out. That's because you're gaining your skills from different sources of character design. However in the GMG for dual classing you throw out duplicate skills. That's because they are coming from the same source so you don't get to replace them. In effect you can only gain a skill during one aspect of character creation.

Now let's look at attribute bonuses. You gain them from ancestry, background, and class. These can stack because they are all different sources. However you can't chose the same ability twice during ancestry or background. Class build only increases one stat. Now when we go to building the character as a dual class if it's the same stat bonus you throw it out because you can't apply the same stat twice. However, most builds have different options when combining so they wouldn't get tossed out. So should be kept. However class is only supposed to give one stat bonus, keeping in line with general class build. That means those stats that don't conflict would end up becoming a choice of picking one. This follows core class builds such as the rogue that gets to choose between strength, dexterity, or other. It also keeps in line with advancement since you don't get both bonus increases as you level and keeps multiclass variations on a level playing field.

That's my logic. As I mentioned if Mark says they get to keep all bonuses I'll convert it back.

RJGrady wrote:

It's a part of the Character Creation rules, but it's also listed under each class, making it unclear.

Ability Boosts Core Rulebook pg. 20

"However, when you gain multiple ability boosts at the same time, you must apply each one to a different score.": so no duplicate boosts.

Ancestries and Class Sidebar

"The summaries of the classes on pages 22–23 list each class’s key ability score—the ability score used to calculate the potency of many of their class abilities. Characters receive an ability boost in that ability score when you choose their class.": You pick TWO classes and when you pick a class you get a boost in your key stat so... Seems mighty clear to me.

Dual-Class PCs Gamemastery Guide pg. 192

"Then, when you get to the step of choosing a class, select two classes and add everything from each class except Hit Points and starting skills: initial proficiencies, class features, class feats, extra skill feats and skill increases for rogues, and so on.": So you add everything except hp and starting skills which means key stats are in. We've already determined that EACH time you choice a class you get a boost in your key stat and you pick two classes with this rule, it logically follows you get two boosts as long as they are in different stats.

So it seems pretty clear. If you disagree, please quote what you think is unclear and point to what you think doesn't follow the quotes I posted.

Source Gamemastery Guide pg. 193

If a character gains the same proficiency rank in a statistic more than once, they still use only the highest rank. In the example above, when the cleric gets Alertness at 5th level, they wouldn’t change their Perception rank, since it was already expert due to the ranger’s initial proficiencies.

Hello, I've created a guide covering dual classing. It's still in development. Here's the link. Dual Class Guide

Linkified the guide in the quote.

Also: You should post this over in the Guide to the Guides thread.

Gonna dig into this some. At a glance, this looks pretty cool (and VERY chonky). Might consider a table of contents, page hyperlinks, or something similar to help with the chonk.

Thanks, will post there. This is still in the early stages. I completed about week or so ago and just did the latest update Friday. Still have a lot of work to do.

Because I already have a Dual-classed character, I already noticed 1 mistake on your chart (which is very long and thorough, including classes that are not even available yet!). You get "every thing from both classes except hit points and starting skills", according to the book. However, your chart seems to say that you must choose between the Class stat bonus from just 1 of your classes, when in fact you get both. For instance, I'm a Ranger/Wizard dual-class, so I get either Str or Dex for the Ranger part, AND Int for the Wizard part, it's not just 1 chosen from all 3 stats.

In my previous version I had it laid out that way. After some thought and I decided against it. I explain my reasoning for that in the guide. Class is only meant to give one bonus. Since both classes give a bonus you would need to eliminate one. In cases where it's the same bonus they auto eliminate. However, when they offer different bonuses they become a choice. This keeps the character in line with the standard character build and eliminates certain builds being super powered compared to others. It's reinforced during leveling in that you don't get your attribute bonus twice, since one would be for one class and the other would be for the other one.

It's clear that character builds are meant to be in line with others with the exception that you gain both class features that aren't shared. Such as class feats.

My immediate thought is that you're still including redundant features.

For example, Champion/Fighter gets lightning reflexes at 9, alertness at 11, and armor mastery at 17, despite all of these features doing nothing because you already have the proficiencies.

Also, the potential for 120-odd unique combo names like Hunter and Skald is a possibility...

Yeah, there is still a lot of work to do. Finding redundancies is tough when some are using different names, although if they have any variation I can't eliminate them if that variation affects a different element.

I like the idea of adding names. 120 is a lot to think of though.

I have put together a document that compiles every possible combination for all 16 classes. It's just the stat stuff and the level progression table for each combination. Feel free to take a look. Any feedback would be appreciated.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1hLYFNPItfVW81uoRVur0hBXaM9ZtcUG3

I guess that my interpretation is more from a card game angle in that if you can't perform part of a sequence you can't complete any of it because it has effectively been disrupted. If you can't double the damage then you can't do anything else.

The deadly trait references applying the double damage first then adding its damage, but if you can't double the damage you can't apply that damage.

The second part in my opinion seems to support that, especially since it use the "of other actions" which seems to indicate actions that work as attacks, but aren't.

I wish they had done a better break down like they did with nonlethal damage. That section of immunity is pretty clear and better written.

They should have made critical hit a trait that is triggered and then assigned it to everything that can be used as part of a critical hit. Then just said they are immune to the critical hit trait.

Considering how few monsters have critical hit immunity in this edition making them completely immune to all critical effects isn't a big impact. The gelatinous cube my party fought was still taken out in three rounds at 3rd level.

Quote:

I think Deadly/Fatal/etc are still cancelled. The first sentence is talking about 'Strikes or other attacks that deal damage'. The second sentence is talking about 'other actions', ie. actions that aren't strikes/damage dealing.

I agree with this. It is clear that the second part is referring to different actions that have attack traits and specifically lists non-damaging actions as part of the example, grapple and shove. Both can be done by themselves and don't directly cause damage.

I just ran into this tonight in Age of Ashes against a gelatinous cube. I have to disagree in that the second part doesn't apply to the first part. It says "of other actions that have the attack trait" which given the examples of grapple and shove are specific actions that don't cause damage. However, in this case it is part of an action that does do damage regardless of outcome. Therefore the extra damage would be negated.

If you would try to grapple an ooze and roll a critical success, you would gain the benefit of a critical success. The same with shoving it.

I see where I am getting confused, but still feel the wording in the damage write-up could be written better. A simple inclusion of "may take an available action to" or write the ability in. Other monsters such as the great white shark list abilities gained from successful strikes:

"Savage - Single Action - Requirement: The shark hit with a jaws Strike on its most recent action this turn. Effect The creature the shark hit takes 1d12 slashing damage."

Just give it a fancy name or something like this:

Quick Grab - Single Action - Requirement: The crocodile hit with a jaws Strike on its most recent action. The crocodile grabs the target.

It has been brought to my attention that the use of “plus” in damage is not inclusive to the meaning:

“Definition of plus. (Entry 1 of 4) 1 : algebraically positive. 2 : having, receiving, or being in addition to what is anticipated.”

In this case it’s in reference to crocodile damage and the addition of “plus Grab”.

I was listening to Roll for Combat and Stephen (GM) had the crocodile move up to the target, bite, and then do a death roll that requires grab (which was described as part of the bite). Vanessa informed him that the death roll could not be performed because the grab is an action. Normally I would agree, but the grab is listed as part of the damage as such:

“Melee jaws +10, Damage 1d10+4 piercing plus Grab”

The plus indicates that the grab is an additional part of the damage, which with a crocodile makes since as once they latch on they don’t let go if they can help it.

In addition the Grab action states:

“Requirements The monster’s last action was a success with a Strike that lists Grab in its damage entry, or it has a creature grabbed using this action. Effect The monster automatically Grabs the target until the end of the monster’s next turn. The creature is grabbed by whichever body part the monster attacked with, and that body part can’t be used to Strike creatures until the grab is ended.

Using Grab extends the duration of the monster’s Grab until the end of its next turn for all creatures grabbed by it. A grabbed creature can use the Escape action to get out of the grab, and the Grab ends for a grabbed creatures if the monster moves away from it.”

The requirement to perform the grab action is either it is part of the monster’s damage descriptor or the monster takes the grab action specifically. The effect of either one is that the target is immediately grabbed.

Stephen says he has spoken to someone here at Paizo about it and it is supposed to be an action that is taken, but per the requirements, and the meaning of “plus”, Grab is a free action as part of the damage.

If it is meant to be a separate action then it needs to be removed from the damage descriptor, as do several other cases throughout the Bestiary as “plus Grab” clearly indicates under the requirements for Grab that the condition has been met and no separate action needs to be taken.

What is the official Paizo stance on this?

I have read through that and wouldn't be asking these questions, if it answered my questions. It does not. The write-up in the GMG is horrible. These two questions are not answered or conflict with general rules in the core book:

My initial question about the skills isn't answered because it doesn't reference what happens when duplicate skills are present. Normally as addressed in the core book duplicate skills are replaced, but several times when mentioning other conflicts in the dual-class write up it says to drop the duplicate. Does that apply to skills or do skills follow the core book?

Also it doesn't mention anywhere in the write-up about Key Abilities. This needs to be addressed because if it doesn't become a choose one option and you apply both in some cases you may get double ability bonuses from classes chosen.

I just realized do they get both class ability boosts under Key Ability at first level? That's not mentioned either in the break down of creating the character.

That would be my assumption, but in the GMG for Dual-class most things are thrown out when it discusses duplicates. Skills doesn't mention that so trying to verify if that rule would apply here or if the duplicate is just thrown out and ignored.

When combining the skills from both classes in the event of duplicate skills do you: throw out the duplicate or (as in the case of a duplicate from ancestry, background, class in general rules) replace the skill with another skill?

Example: druid and ranger both get nature as trained

If you toss the extra that would give the character 7+Int total skills, whereas if you switch it they would have 8+Int skills.

I sent an email last weekend detailing that I'd received/bought the core set and was missing two of the cards (Wounds and the Acolyte). I haven't heard back yet and was hoping there was a way to get those cards without having to return the product. Is the lack of response due to the inventory being done?

My group is almost finished with the second act, gearing up to face the boss.

I realized they may need to use the potions found at Hallod's place. The importance of this, which seems to have been skipped over in the mod is that Vilree put drugs in his supply to help control him. Has anyone thought or is playing with this aspect? I'm sure it wasn't in all the stuff she gave him, but it's at least in the stuff she gave him as mentioned in the back story. The party found at least two vials of it.

I'm thinking of using the drug rules if and when they are used. Just wondering if anyone else realized this and thought about doing the same thing?

The coven feature is one of the abilities I would like to see either adjusted, replaced, or perhaps altered.

If adjusted then leave it as the option it is. Just fix it so that it's more usable by everyone.

As for replacement I agree it seems useless and takes up space in the class. Useless class features that will see minimal play need weeded out. Just as feats that 90% will take should just be class features.

My thought on altering it would be to make the coven feature a ritual instead, that keeps it intact and available. A class restriction could be applied to make it available to witches only.

I'm currently running my group through the mod and reaching the end of the first part. I like to plan ahead so I have started looking and I'm having problems finding a module to move to after the group finishes it. Has anyone found a PF2 mod that falls within the 4-5 level range to run after Plaguestone that is not part of an adventure path? I'd prefer to move the group into another stand alone mod, but not finding any for 2e. I've found some 3P ones on Drivethru, but they are higher level starting around 7-8.

Has Paizo announced a stand alone that would fit and I've missed it? I've been keeping up on all the news and pretty sure they haven't announced anything. I would prefer not to start in the middle of an adventure path or other extended module. Nor do I want to convert something from 1e.

Has anyone found a modules that will fit after Plaguestone for their group? 3P mods are fine. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks for the responses and sorry I'm late getting back to everyone. I do have quite a few PDFs of the stuff I'm selling and those I don't have won't be that hard to purchase later. I have thought about what game I will be teaching them and am currently waiting to see how Little Wizards by Crafty Games turns out as it sounds like the book is written entirely from the ground up for little ones.

I am pretty sure I will be back at some point to active play, but really I’ve been looking at a lot of different games. I’ve always been big on the next big game or at least new game on the block. I’ve also sold enough RPG material over the past 25 years that I probably could have funded my own business by now had I not bought the books. I tend to slash and burn when it comes to transitioning to new editions which is something I think is related to my Italian heritage. (I once heard of an Italian miner here in Iowa that every time he moved he left everything behind. When he died they found five houses in his name with a car in each garage.) Anyway I have sold off four editions of D&D, having owned just about every book in order to start something new. I also download every free rpg I come across whether it’s a demo, a beta, homebrewed, or some forgotten game idea someone posted so it wouldn’t be forgotten. And now I’m into kickstarters and patronage programs, as well as preoders… so yeah, not really getting out of gaming as just chasing the new.

Anyway, thanks for the responses and keep gaming.

As for my auctions some stuff sold. Here’s a list of what has be relisted on eBay that didn’t sell from last week. I cut the auction down so it ends on Sunday. Take care.

Pathfinder Corebook Autographed by Jason Bulmahn
Pathfinder Corebook Beta
Pathfinder Inner Sea Bundle
Pathfinder Module Bundle
Pathfinder Book of the Damn Bundle
Pathfinder Goblin Books
Pathfinder Freeport Bundle
Pathfinder Beginner Box
Pathfinder Gamemastery Deck Bundle

I've decide to get out of Pathfinder for the interim as with two kids under five I just don't have the time anymore to play and keep up with the game. I figure by the time they will be able to play there will be a new edition out and I'll be buying new books anyway. So I'm selling my collection, as well as my Star Wars Saga books, in order to buy camera gear and pay for new board games and such. Here are the links to the auctions:

Pathfinder Corebook Autographed by Jason Bulmahn
Pathfinder Corebook Beta
Pathfinder Gamemaster Bundle
Pathfinder Inner Sea Bundle
Pathfinder Module Bundle
Pathfinder Bestiary Bundle
Pathfinder Chronicles/Companion Bundle
Pathfinder Player Bundle
Pathfinder Book of the Damn Bundle
Pathfinder Goblin Books
Pathfinder Freeport Bundle
Pathfinder Beginner Box
Pathfinder Gamemastery Deck Bundle

Star Wars Saga Bundle

If you know anyone who might be interested please spread the word. Thanks!

If you haven't seen Scrying Eye Games' "Welcome to Mortiston", you may want to take a gander.

It chronicles a single town in great detail from several days prior to the apocalypse out through 90 days following.

It is one of the only books of its kind that I've seen, especially since its "game system agnostic"; all NPCs have stats in multiple systems.

The maps are beautiful, to boot!

Take a look at Desolation, using the HEX engine, it give all the world details before it's cataclysm happened and pretty much leaves it up to the GM to decide how things spiral after the initial period after. Even the world map is pre-cataclysm so that the GM can decide how it has changed. One aspect I love about that book is it has salvage tables for every creature in the game so you can figure out after something is killed if it has a use. Little twisted, but pretty cool idea.

Sorry I'm late for the party. ;) So glad this got picked up. I actually had finally given up and sent Gareth an email last week asking for my money back. He sent an email telling me that the change over was pending and asked if I wanted to wait. I was like sure, I can wait two weeks since I'd already gone so long.

Anyways...

Owen, have you guys thought about maybe making it a rules lite borderline stand alone game? I'm thinking along the lines of what TSR/WotC did with Gamma World for Alternity only with Pathfinder, but then explain that for expanded rules the game relies heavily on the corebook. If anything it could be one of the stretch goals if you do run a Kickstarter.

My thought is that there is so much that has been added to the coreline of Pathfinder that it is beginning to be intimidating to new players who might want to pick it up.

Just a thought.

I think SGG will do a bang up job and hopefully we'll see more from their press release. At this point I almost would like to see this done as a stand alone game using a rules lite pathfinder; what with all the core books that have come out since it was first announced.

I still have my email confirmation I think though at this point I'm more in it just to see if it ever pays off and marking the money up to lesson learned.

In other news anyone else wondering about the Icons change over? I find it very interesting that it was pull and all involvement by Adamant was to stop immediately.

(If this isn't the right place for this could a Mod please move it. Thanks.)

Hey, just wanted to let people know that I have put part of my Pathfinder collection up on eBay. Haven't done any gaming in almost a year so figured I might as well get rid of my extra books and put them to better use, namely supporting my photography schooling. Click here for auction.

And speaking of my photography feel free to look over my site here or my Facebookpage and checkout my black light dice photos I recently posted.

There's also Metamorphosis Alpha which is being redone by James Ward and Jamie Chambers which might be worth it if it sees print. Never played the original.

And in other news related to Adamant, Rick Hershey has left the Far West project. Gareth listed that it was for personal reasons. This will of course cause a delay with that project as they move to fill the art he hadn't finished yet. So I'm sure this will set WotA back as well since Far West seems to be the new hotness that must be done first.

Ours didn't run it because they either didn't know about it or were late on getting signed up so nothing was left. The closest place was half an hour away and not worth the drive to try and get there in time to make sure I got one, especially since I can download it here and not pay gas expense.

So here's something interesting, the main site has been updated. I find this quote from Facebook interesting and a bit ironic:

"The redesign of the Adamant Entertainment website is complete, expanded to cover everything we're doing:

http://www.adamantentertainment.com/"

The ironic part is there is no mention anywhere I can find about WotA. Which we've been told repeatedly that it is being worked on. If I missed it please point it out to me.

So tired of waiting... for everything they are working on. Heck, even Far West is taking forever. They've got all the money they will ever get from me and I was a big fan of their work until this project went vaporware.

If I'm gonna wish I'm gonna wish big.

I want a Millenium Falcon, and a cute twi'lek copilot.

But the cookies are better on the dark side.

Still waiting...

That confused me too. Apparently he was talking about the PDF of Dungeon Crawl Classics.

I was, sorry. I was just excited that one of my games I ordered forever ago is actually shipping and was hoping that maybe the luck would rub off on this product too.

Woot! And Goodman shipped the PDF for preorders last night! Now really hope this ships.

Phalazar wrote:

psionichamster wrote:

Bump...any further info?

I didn't see anything on their FB page or Adamants home site.

Gareth posted yesterday that it is one of the scheduled releases for April.

Link to Facebook announcement.

Ooh, and if it releases this month with Far West,m, as well as DCC RPG, I'll have a lot of reading to do. Let's hope for the best and keep our fingers crossed.

Well hopefully the fat lady is tied up somewhere and we'll eventually see it. I've been burned a few times already, but we'll just have to wait and see if this is one of them.

I have a lot of respect for companies who don't give release dates, it's smart business, and prevents some of the backlash that's happened here. If there had been no release date or pushing back of release dates there would be less grief in this forum I think.

Late March-Early April according to Adamant's FaceBook page (22 hrs ago at this point) :)

Craig J. Brain

I never found your reference so don't know if they pulled it or what, but not on FB now. One would think we'd hear more info if it was coming out this month or next.

I liked it. Hope he answers as it would be nice to hear something and I backed FW.

I have discovered the best post apoc theme ever!!!! You can read it here.

You know, you guys should have been around before TSR went mainstream. You were lucky to get a product in the year it was announced and more often than not it just showed up without any announcement that it was going to be released when it finally released. And they almost never talked to anyone from what I remember so intermittent comments from the company is good in my book.

Woot! Got the email that this is full steam ahead. Given the success of Far West kickstart I'm wondering if doing one for this would help get writers so you're not over whelmed with having to finish the writing yourself? Not to mention you could get even more cool art to put in it and maybe go full color. Hint, hint!