2nd Edition Guide to the Guides!


Advice

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Shadow Lodge

Nice, added those. Looks like the guides are getting a bit more filled out now. Glad to see it.

And here's the top of the page link for those looking for Pathfinder 2e Guides:

2nd Edition Guide to the Guides


TheGentlemanDM wrote:

New Champion Guide available.

The Gentleman's Guide to Duty. I'll be refining it as comments come in.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/eonzk9/the_gentlemans_guide_ to_duty_the_pf2_champion/?

Congratulations for making it relatively compact while still providing what seems to be a pretty good summary (as far as I can tell from being so far Untrained in Pathfinder 2nd Edition). Any discussion thread for this?


UnArcaneElection wrote:


Congratulations for making it relatively compact while still providing what seems to be a pretty good summary (as far as I can tell from being so far Untrained in Pathfinder 2nd Edition). Any discussion thread for this?

Aside from the Reddit comments, not yet.

I should probably make one.

I'm still not familiar with the formatting for bolding, italics, links etc here.

If anyone else wants to get one started for me, it'd be much appreciated.


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TheGentlemanDM wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:


Congratulations for making it relatively compact while still providing what seems to be a pretty good summary (as far as I can tell from being so far Untrained in Pathfinder 2nd Edition). Any discussion thread for this?

Aside from the Reddit comments, not yet.

I should probably make one.

I'm still not familiar with the formatting for bolding, italics, links etc here.

If anyone else wants to get one started for me, it'd be much appreciated.

You could always write the guide in google doc and open a simple thread for the discussion and feedback.

It would give you a lot more readability than reddit, as well.

Sovereign Court

Isthisnametaken? wrote:

Someone wrote a rogue handbook that I wanted to pass along the link to. It’s a bit rough, but it’s the first attempt I have seen that tackles rogue.

https://rpgbot.net/p2/characters/classes/rogue/

Reading the first sentence of the Intro:

"The rogue is the unchallenged master of skills"

Until APG comes out. Then the Investigator not only challenges, but completely surpasses. Woot, for power creep already. (Barring changes to the APG playtest characters, of course.)

/sigh


Isthisnametaken? wrote:

Someone wrote a rogue handbook that I wanted to pass along the link to. It’s a bit rough, but it’s the first attempt I have seen that tackles rogue.

https://rpgbot.net/p2/characters/classes/rogue/

Linkified for your convenience.


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A few remarks on guides for PF2, from a reader's perspective.

1) Stick to the point.
Given how PF2 feats fall into various categories, going through all of them in a class guide is a lot of pointless work. It is better to focus on class feats and only mention ancestral, feat and general feats that are specifically relevant to the class in question.

2) Mention what feats and features do.
When you discuss a feat (or class feature) make sure your reader is on the same page as you. For a guide to be useful to someone who knows the system less well than you (and why would you write a guide, if that is not your intended audience), you need to provide some of that knowledge. You don't need to quote the whole crunch, but at least say what it is for and how it works.

3) Make your reasoning clear.
This connects to the second point. A guide is more useful, if the reader learns something about why options are good, bad or ok. Writing on an option should contain more information than what is already present in the rating. "(red test) this is useless" is just stating the same opinion twice.

4) Give example partial builds and explain combos and interactions.
Doing this will help the reader to see how your reasoning applies to actual character building and to understand how various feats and features work together. Here too, it would be helpful to give more information than just listing the feats/features involved and stating an evaluation.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
Isthisnametaken? wrote:

Someone wrote a rogue handbook that I wanted to pass along the link to. It’s a bit rough, but it’s the first attempt I have seen that tackles rogue.

https://rpgbot.net/p2/characters/classes/rogue/

Linkified for your convenience.

This guide is in really rough shape; while it's inevitable that any new guide will contain a few mistakes, this one is pretty dense with significant errors about how various system options work. The Ruffian section alone errs in how it describes armor check penalties, and suggests tripping (an Attack action that contributes to MAP) as a means of making enemies flat-footed.


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I've put together a guide for the Druid class

Gortle's Guide to Druids.

It took much longer than I thought but I was happy to do it. Please let me know what you think. I need to put in some images and example builds.

Maybe I'll do Sorceror next.

Cheers


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Gortle wrote:

I've put together a guide for the Druid class

Gortle's Guide to Druids.

It took much longer than I thought but I was happy to do it. Please let me know what you think. I need to put in some images and example builds.

Nice guide!

One correction: I believe you can’t use voluntary flaws to get two 18s for your starting stats, and a Druid can only start with an 18 in Wisdom.

(Voluntary flaws come in at the ancestry stage. To get an 18 you need bonuses from all four stages: ancestry, background, class, and final ability boosts. Since your class only ever gives you one boost, you con only have one 18 (and that has to be in the ability score your class boosts).)


KutuluKultist wrote:

A few remarks on guides for PF2, from a reader's perspective.

1) Stick to the point.
Given how PF2 feats fall into various categories, going through all of them in a class guide is a lot of pointless work. It is better to focus on class feats and only mention ancestral, feat and general feats that are specifically relevant to the class in question.

Not sure if I completely agree with this one. If I have a particular ancestry/class combo in mind, I'm going to want to see the pros and cons of all of my options. Especially one that might not have a ton of striking options, but still have some that are better than others (like, say, a Leshy ranger or something).


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You know what would be really cool? A guide on how to get different characters (usually of different classes) in a party to synergize with each other.

For 1st Edition, the Tips & Tricks section had some guides that touched on this in more than just passing, although I'd still like to see an updated and more focused guide for this in 1st Edition (however, that's unlikely to happen). For 2nd Edition, I haven't yet seen one at all.


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The Gentleman's Guide to Blood Magic: The PF2 Sorcerer is now up.


Gentleman, the material of your guides seems pretty good, but I would question whether you should make the guide itself a Reddit post. What happens, say this fall, when you want to update it to accommodate some new stuff that's come out, but the post is now old enough that it's locked?

Just a thought I had about the format/presentation. Again I want to stress, not a knock on the content.

Have a good one.


Gortle wrote:

I've put together a guide for the Druid class

Gortle's Guide to Druids.

It took much longer than I thought but I was happy to do it. Please let me know what you think. I need to put in some images and example builds.

Maybe I'll do Sorceror next.

Cheers

Gortle, are you sure you can use the item bonus from handwraps while wildshaped? Polymorph seems to exclude item bonuses...

Xykal


Redblade8 wrote:

Gentleman, the material of your guides seems pretty good, but I would question whether you should make the guide itself a Reddit post. What happens, say this fall, when you want to update it to accommodate some new stuff that's come out, but the post is now old enough that it's locked?

Just a thought I had about the format/presentation. Again I want to stress, not a knock on the content.

Have a good one.

As it turns out, one can update posts after they age out if you're the original creator.

The bigger problem is the 40,000 character limit, which I'm already up against.

When the time comes, I'll port the guides over to Google Docs. Just not immediately.


Porridge wrote:
Gortle wrote:

I've put together a guide for the Druid class

Gortle's Guide to Druids.

It took much longer than I thought but I was happy to do it. Please let me know what you think. I need to put in some images and example builds.

Nice guide!

One correction: I believe you can’t use voluntary flaws to get two 18s for your starting stats, and a Druid can only start with an 18 in Wisdom.

(Voluntary flaws come in at the ancestry stage. To get an 18 you need bonuses from all four stages: ancestry, background, class, and final ability boosts. Since your class only ever gives you one boost, you con only have one 18 (and that has to be in the ability score your class boosts).)

Yeah you are right. You can get an 18 for a race that has a ability penalty on a prime stat, but not two 18s. I'll fix it up


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Xykal wrote:
Gortle wrote:

I've put together a guide for the Druid class

Gortle's Guide to Druids.

It took much longer than I thought but I was happy to do it. Please let me know what you think. I need to put in some images and example builds.

Maybe I'll do Sorceror next.

Cheers

Gortle, are you sure you can use the item bonus from handwraps while wildshaped? Polymorph seems to exclude item bonuses...

Xykal

Yes. It could be easier to read but looking at it closely it is specific.

The Polymorph Rules say
If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties.

From the Animal Form spell. It is discussing the battle forms special statistics
Your attack modifier is +9, and your damage bonus is +1. These attacks are Strength based (for the purpose of the enfeebled condition, for example). If your unarmed attack bonus is higher, you can use it instead.

The distinction here is the Polymorph rule stops the battle form from having item bonuses - it is stuck with +9.

But the un-polymorphed druid has an unarmed attack bonus and that can be adjusted by item bonuses.

Then the specific Animal form spell allows you to replace the battle form attack bonus with your own.

So I think it is clear. It would be a massive stretch to suggest that the Polymorph rules affected the bonuses that could apply to an unpolymorphed druid.

Looking at the balance. Let's face it it is not going to be a huge attack bonus it will always be a bit behind the martial classes and further behind the Fighter as a Druid will not have the unarmed attack proficiency as high as they could. The +2 that you get from the wild shape focus spell, only gets them up to the martial classes. But the wild shape druid will still be 1 point behind after spending his two actions to transform, as he can't start with an 18 Str or 18 Dex.


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Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I think the rule is unclear and needs to be clarified by Paizo.


Good point, Gortle. If you're using the base attack bonus from the spell, you cannot add item bonuses to that. But if you're using your own modifier, you would probably include the item bonus.


Tarondor wrote:
I think the rule is unclear and needs to be clarified by Paizo.

To me it is clear. I'd say it was ridiculously complex, and prone to bring misread. Yes it could do with some attention from Paizo.

But while you are at it Paizo please clarify what feats do and do not work in wild shape. You have left a bit much for GMs to interpret. Please also fix animal companions so they aren't useless at high levels with bad to hit rolls and bad AC.


Gortle wrote:

I've put together a guide for the Druid class

Gortle's Guide to Druids.
{. . .}

Finally got a chance to read this. This is the first 2nd Edition guide I have seen that at least mentions options for multiclassing into the class it describes (from another class), although it is quite brief (may be hard to figure out more given the fairly short time the production version of 2nd Edition has been out). Would like to see that in more 2nd Edition guides. (A smattering of 1st Edition guides have this feature.)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gortle wrote:

I've put together a guide for the Druid class

Gortle's Guide to Druids.

I like this guide a lot, but I think you're being a bit optimistic on how to calculate unarmed attack modifiers.

The fact that the only unarmed attack listed in table 6-6 is a fist (and thus is finesse) doesn't mean all unarmed attacks are finesse. I think it's kind of a stretch to use the finesse on fist to justify always using your DEX modifier when calculating what modifier to replace the spell's specified attack modifier with. I mean literally all the spells call out their attacks as being Strength based, none of the actual unarmed attacks in the various forms are finesse, and the rules for calculating attack modifiers are pretty clear on only using DEX when you're using a weapon that has finesse.

There are plenty of things that are unclear about how wild shape meshes with other parts of the game, but this doesn't seem like one of them to me.


Gortle wrote:

I've put together a guide for the Druid class

Gortle's Guide to Druids.

It took much longer than I thought but I was happy to do it. Please let me know what you think. I need to put in some images and example builds.

Maybe I'll do Sorceror next.

Cheers

You list all non-multiclass archetypes as one star, but what about Magaambyan Attendant/Halycon Speaker? Those are specifically designed with primal and arcane spellcasters in mind.


rooneg wrote:
Gortle wrote:

I've put together a guide for the Druid class

Gortle's Guide to Druids.

I like this guide a lot, but I think you're being a bit optimistic on how to calculate unarmed attack modifiers.

The fact that the only unarmed attack listed in table 6-6 is a fist (and thus is finesse) doesn't mean all unarmed attacks are finesse. I think it's kind of a stretch to use the finesse on fist to justify always using your DEX modifier when calculating what modifier to replace the spell's specified attack modifier with. I mean literally all the spells call out their attacks as being Strength based, none of the actual unarmed attacks in the various forms are finesse, and the rules for calculating attack modifiers are pretty clear on only using DEX when you're using a weapon that has finesse.

There are plenty of things that are unclear about how wild shape meshes with other parts of the game, but this doesn't seem like one of them to me.

I suppose I should have guessed this would be debatable. I do see your point, Strength is technically the default. I recommended it that way because:

You are replacing an attack bonus of an animal form with the attack bonus of an unarmed humanoid. Bite, claw, tail slap for what? If you must pick an actual unarmed attack there is only fist. PF2 clearly allows unarmed combat based on Dexterity. Half the monk options are finesse.

There is no mention any more to Strength in the wild shape rules. There was in the play test, but it's just not there anymore. The Druid has no other dependencies on it. I'm reluctant to add one.

Using Strength does effect your initial distribution of ability scores, and weakens wild shaping. I don't see that it is justified or needed.

Some of the wild shape spells say they are Dexterity based, so the GM knows how to handle ability drains. So it's clearly in the ball park. Would you calculate your unarmed attack bonus differently for theses forms?

Balance wise it seems fair. You are still a couple of points behind the marital classes. It still costs you two actions to get into form.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gortle wrote:
Some of the wild shape spells say they are Dexterity based, so the GM knows how to handle ability drains. So it's clearly in the ball park. Would you calculate your unarmed attack bonus differently for theses forms?

Hmm. Good question. I missed those two spells when I made my first pass through. I think the answer is probably yes (so you could use Dexterity for Soaring Form and half of Elemental Form, but not the rest), but even then I'm not entirely sure. I guess you could argue against it because none of their attacks are actually Finesse, but I'm guessing the explicit Dexterity reference probably overrules that. It feels like it should have some clarification though, along with the various other "how does wild shape work?" sort of questions people are waiting for clarification on.

As for if the dependency is needed, I'm not 100% sure it is anyway. You're certainly giving up a couple of points of attack modifier for some levels, but it's not all the levels (maxing Strength helps you for your level 2 Animal Forms, for example, but not your level 3 ones). You still get benefit from it if you're casting specific form spells at specific spell levels (as opposed to using the maxed out version from your focus spell), since those will likely be lower level and thus your higher attack mod may more often end up coming out ahead, but how often will that come up? In the end, I think it's totally reasonable to dump STR, it's just also reasonable not to dump it (especially because your very first combat form will benefit from maxed out STR).


Salamileg wrote:
Gortle wrote:

I've put together a guide for the Druid class

Gortle's Guide to Druids.

It took much longer than I thought but I was happy to do it. Please let me know what you think. I need to put in some images and example builds.

Maybe I'll do Sorceror next.

Cheers

You list all non-multiclass archetypes as one star, but what about Magaambyan Attendant/Halycon Speaker? Those are specifically designed with primal and arcane spellcasters in mind.

I'll go back and look again, but it will take me a while. Yes I've got a colleague you really likes a Halcyon Speaker build. I'm unconvinced because of the number of feats you have to pay and alls the other options you have to give up on. But yes at the least it is a good number of extra spells.

The low level 1-6 class feats that you can pick in the normal multiclass at archetypes have some good choices.


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I've posted a Guide to Acquiring Common Cantrips on Google Docs.


Isthisnametaken? wrote:
Any thoughts as to why there’s not a legitimate rogue guide yet?

Mostly because guides are very time consuming to write, and the system has been out for less than a year.


Salamileg wrote:
Isthisnametaken? wrote:
Any thoughts as to why there’s not a legitimate rogue guide yet?
Mostly because guides are very time consuming to write, and the system has been out for less than a year.

It does take some time. But its probably because a lot of people are doing it on youtube instead. Thats just not a satisfactory level of detail for me.

Shadow Lodge

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Great, added the Druid, Sorcerer, and Cantrip guides.

If you are posting your own guide, make sure to make a discussion thread somewhere so this thread isn't too derailed.

2nd Edition Guide to the Guides


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Broken Zenith wrote:

2nd Edition Guide to the Guides

If you know of any guides, please post them below.

2nd Edition Guide to the Guides

I have done another guide. Because we are still too light on opinions on this game.

Here is my take on the Sorcerer

Gortle’s Sorcerer Guide

And on the Sorcerer Spells all 4 traditions.

Gortle’s Spell Guide for the Sorcerer

Please put comments in the separate thread I raised here.

Shadow Lodge

Great, added the sorcerer guides.

2nd Edition Guide to the Guides


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Is there a way to correct guides? Because the Monk guide has a bunch of things wrong, notably how focus points work.

Quote:

Ki Rush: Very situational. Notably, this feat does not expand your Focus Pool if you already have one, so I don't recommend taking this if you already have a Focus Pool.

Ki Strike: At low levels, being able to use Ki Strike for a 1-turn boost to damage looks really tempting, but it's not as useful as a permanent benefit you could get from other 1st-level feats like a Stance feat. You might consider this later if you're going for a build which emphasizes Focus Spells (a "Ki Monk"). Notably, this feat does not expand your Focus Pool if you already have one, so I don't recommend taking this if you already have a Focus Pool.

This is incorrect.

From the CRB

Quote:
If you have multiple abilities that give you a focus pool, each one adds 1 Focus Point to your pool.

Both Ki Strike and Ki Rush give a focus pool.

I also mentions Shield Proficiency, which doesn't exist..

And not knowing how Assurance works

Quote:
Wind Jump: By this level you can easily by Master in Acrobatics (level+6), granting you a total bonus of +15 before consider your Dexterity modifier. With the Assurance skill feat that's a guaranteed result of 25 before your Dexterity modifier.

You don't add your stat to assurance rolls it's just 10+prof.

And then there's the subjective stuff like ranking Monastic Weapons above Ki Strike but that's not an incorrect rule.


Vlorax wrote:

Is there a way to correct guides? Because the Monk guide has a bunch of things wrong, notably how focus points work.

He is not on the boards that I know of, try him on twitter

Focus points suck. There is this nice general rule that you quote. Then there are custom bits and pieces of text through out the feats and spells. Sometimes the feat itself grants you a focus pool, does the spell then grant you another? Two of the druid orders have special wording. When it could have been very simple.


I've wanted to do a guide on a martial class for some time. The recommendations just come out so different. So here it is

Gortle's Barbarian Guide

The ratings are relative to each other and are more about pointing out the differences as I see them. Hopefully its useful to you, and you can see past my prejudices to find some gems.

This has been interesting for me but I've had enough. I'm not expecting to do another guide.

Comments are welcome on this thread Discussion Thread

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