Owlbear

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I am currently building a Level 4 Kineticist, and one of the downsides to the class is its weak Will save. As such, Iron Will is definitely going to be taken at some point as I level, but I'm wondering how safe it would be to take an 'instant gratification' feat like Improved Initiative or Weapon Finesse for level 5, and postpone the 'boring but necessary' Iron Will until level 7.

In the meantime, I've taken Birthmark over Indomitable Faith in an attempt to soften the blow. My reasoning for this is to have a better effective save against the spells and abilities that make Will so important, I can get away with a weaker save against anything that doesn't fall under the Charm and Compulsion criteria.

Is this logic sound? Or would it be more critical to take Iron Will as soon as I hit level 5 before anything else? This is for a RoTRL campaign, and this character will not be starting out with any gear that boosts saves.


Ryzoken wrote:
shroudb wrote:

the human perception isn't that hard:

if someone says to you:
your paycheck is 10$/day
and...

False equivocation.

A more accurate equivalence would be: You're scheduled to work on the 1st, 3rd, 5th, 9th, and 11th. If you come in on the 7th, we'll pay you extra.

But that wouldn't be getting paid extra, unless you use the expanded option to take an extra utility talent. Of course, that too would be giving up a feature that is on a standard progression for literally every level except 7 and 15.


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Chess Pwn wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:
You still get your normal infusion for of levels.
lv 7 doesn't give a normal infusion. You only gain something if you pick your same element.

I know I've said this a number of times before, but I find this design choice seriously questionable, it's like holding class features hostage.

I think most elements are getting super, super cool stuff when they reach the level 3 Wild Talents, but we don't even get to pick one of those Infusions until level 9! Unless, of course, you decide to take a massive hit to your versatility for the next 8 levels. Outside of Fire, or a hyper-melee-focus build on Earth, how could this ever be worth it?


Insain Dragoon wrote:

Or we can compare to a level 11 Archer Bard with

The damage per arrow would be d6 +2 (str) +3 (arcane strike)+2 (good Hope)+2 (enhancement)+3 (inspire courage+6 (Deadly aim) or

d6+18

+8 BAB +7 dex +1 size +2 enhancement +3 Inspire courage +2 good hope -3 deadly aim= 20

So on a normal full attack the Bard
+20/+15 Manyshot 2d6+36 normal shot d6+18
Rapid shot in
+18/+18/+13

Average AC of CR 11 is about 25......

Bard also has option of giving the party haste, losing their first full attack, but making the group very scary.

A basic physical blast at level 11 does 6d6+6+CON mod. With a 6 mod, Deadly Aim, and Elemental Overflow damage bonus that would be 6d6+24.

With Kinetic Blade or Kinetic Whip, a full attack would be 12d6+24 (remove Deadly Aim and Overflow damage bonus from each attack). Aerokineticist can grant Haste to the entire party with Celerity, allowing for a maximum of 18d6+36 if all three attacks hit. This would not require any Burn aside from the 5 points used at the start of the day to get the bonuses for DEX, CON, and Overflow. Biggest downside is that we need to be in melee range for the max damage, but with Kinetic Whip we can extend that to 10 feet, or take it up to 15 with Kinetic Form.

Much higher damage, and for melee we'd only need Weapon Finesse. If we're willing to start committing resources we can start factoring in composite blasts, Metakinesis etc. At this level we should have 4 points to spend, or 6 with Internal Buffer. If we put the +4 Overflow bonus on Con instead of Dex we get can get 1 more point of Burn and 1 more point of damage per attack at the cost of 1 to hit.


ErisAcolyte-Chaos jester wrote:

As for dealing with the non lethal of burn, being able to maybe vent burn damage(that is the no lethal effect of burn) away by spending maybe x number of full-rounds 'venting' to remove a certain amount of burn each round. This might leave you vulnerable to attack as you cut down the amount of burn you have so you can prep back into using your more crazy blasts and infusions.

Does this sound like a good idea?

This would basically remove all the downsides of the Burn mechanic, as everyone would just use it to vent all the Burn points not dedicated to the Defense powers and Overflow bonuses. In-combat, I can't think of any Wild Talent that could be worth consecutive full-rounds of being stationary and useless, and that's assuming the Wild Talent would still be of use once you've finished venting, due to changing conditions during the encounter.

Maybe there could be a daily limit on the points of Burn vented, but then it would just function like a reverse Internal Buffer.


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I think that level 7 should grant an infusion like normal, in addition to expanded element. I honestly don't think that would be a big deal, especially in comparison to level 5, which packs Infusion Specialization, Metakinesis (Empower), and an infusion all into one level.


I would force them to pick one enemy archer in particular. As part of a readied action, the Kineticist creates a wall with strands of Aether as the archer draws back, resulting with the arrow being caught or blocked by the wall.

The biggest problem that could arise from this concern the properties of Aether itself. I don't remember any text declaring if the substance is actually visible or invisible.


Sphynx wrote:

2 things. Telekinetic Finesse is -not- an application of Basic Telekinesis, unlike Telekinetic Haul, so by RAW, the 2 do not work together. You're either doing powerful TK, or fine TK, but not both.

You could probably tie a noose/garrotte around someone's neck, but it wouldn't do any damage unless someone came and pulled on it hard.

Ah, you are correct. Thank you for the clarification.

Though, would instead be able to use Basic Telekinesis to bring the garrote to the targets neck, use Telekinetic Finesse and a Stealth/Sleight of Hand check to coil it around the neck, and then end with a Telekinetic Haul action to constrict with the appropriate strength (up to 400lbs or 4,000 with Burn at level 4)?

It's a roundabout way to do it, I know. I just want to choke people with my mind before level 8.


Yes, it seems rather arbitrary, considering none of the other 'Extra' feats are burdened with such a penalty.

It seems to hurt Aether kineticists in particular at level 7, where the infusion you'd normally get is held hostage by Expanded Element. Taking an 'additional' infusion or utility at the price of giving up a secondary element until 15th just doesn't seem worth it for Telekineticists, especially when an 'additional' infusion is what you're otherwise entitled to by the standard progression.


Third Mind wrote:


Anything I have wrong? Anything I could do to make it better? Honestly though, since there's so few early talents (seemingly especially for Aether) it will probably look much the same as many other builds. I'm thinking of going into Earth later, and eventually picking up Force Hook, pulling myself to enemies then using kinetic blade to bash away. Not sure about Telekineticist just yet, might still go Air or Earth in the end.

Foe Throw is a 3rd level Wild Talent, so that means you'd need to be 6th level or above to select it. Unfortunately, since it's an infusion, that means the earliest you can take it is level 7, but only if you expand Aether and forgo a secondary element. Otherwise, you're forced to wait until level 9


I am currently participating in a RotR campaign, and I'm considering dropping my Warpriest for a Kineticist at the end of the first arc. I will be building him as a level 4 Telekineticist, with a focus on stealth and trickery.

One idea that came to mind was the use of a garrote. By RAW, combat maneuvers with our latent telekinesis is not possible until the Telekinetic Maneuvers wild talent is selected. How should this apply to the action of using a stealth check to thread a length of rope around someone's neck, using Telekinetic Finesse?

Then there's the question of damage/effect. With Telekinetic Haul, I am able to move objects up to 100 pounds per level, or 1,000 pounds per level if I take Burn. Could this be applied to an exertion of force upon an object (such as the strength with which the rope is tightened upon the target's neck)?

Bonus question: The effect of Self-Telekinesis reads:

You use your telekinetic abilities to move yourself. Otherwise, this wild talent functions like flame jet.

What should be inferred by the bolded section? Could it function as a form of flight? How would this be modified by Greater Self Telekinesis? Would it start as levitation, and become flight with the Greater version? I feel like the ability's description should have been more specific.