Ratfolk Troubleshooter

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So through a googling rabbit hole I came across the Rum Punch Festival drinking game in the Plunder & Peril module and it got me thinking about little one off mini games with mechanics, I also know there's a few skills check style carnie games in Carnival of Tears as well. But I haven't read every Module, AP and Society scenario.

So I was thinking about compiling a list/resource in case you needed to spice up a homebrew or riff on some existing idea.

What's your favorite game or skill challenge from an a PF 1st Edition printing?

So the TL:DR

Online group is getting together an IRL session for a members birthday.

Adding the Birthday Boys buddy to the lvl 4 party as a one shot, he will not be staying with the party when we go back to online sessions.

Birthday Boys buddy is kinda dumb and doesn't have a lot of experience with dice games.

So, why I'm here.

The party is good balance wise

Me: mostly optimized Angel Blooded Aasimar Oradin
Dwarf Cleric
Min Maxed Monk
Halfing TWF Unchained Rogue

So we don't need the game to fill any specific slot

Whats like, the most fun/shenanigans you can have with a lvl 4 Bard, like spells/gimmicks without getting too game breaking?

I want the new guy to have fun/be useful without trying and not be a liability.

I mean you can play it however you want in house-rules.

Pharasma definitely doesn't want you to create undead with her powers. BUT there is no as written game mechanic for what to do if you do, technically but RAW nothing happens, Pharasma sits on her grey hands and watches you spit in her face.

BUT, would I be okay with the GM working a system where you "fall" andd need to atone or something...maybe. Does some higher up church people or servitor races show up to talk with you...maybe. It would just have to be discussed before hand with the players and GM, be reasonable, but I could see it.

As always, your table, your fun, your rules.

It is interesting nothing happens RAW for this instance.

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Lady-J wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
I often play my druids with metal plate mail and heavy steel shields.
Reijingu Feza wrote:

My monks are all about the ragin' furor!
and both of those should be perfectly valid nothing is stopping a monk from raging and the restriction for druids not being able to wear metal is silly as metal is naturally occurring plus they can use metal weapons so the restriction on metal armor makes literally no sense
Lady-J wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
And my clerics of Caiden Caylen run thriving halfling slave markets!
also workable, clerics don't have to get spells from gods so its entirely possible to get cleric powers from else were and then worship a deity and do things counter to what the deity stands for in main stream practices

Again, rules say it..I don't like it..so in my game we ignore it because we want to. Lady-J you might be reading the CRB but you aren't playing Pathfinder.

That's what makes these threads so hard, it divulges away from rational conversation because someone wants the way they play to be the standard.

ULG out. I'm done.

Senko wrote:
the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:
Gwaihir Scout wrote:

Further complicating the matter

** spoiler omitted **

And it's exactly following that reasoning that strikes me as a falling offence.
Interestingly his God in this setting (The author) obviously felt it wasn't so what happens when two lawful good gods disagre? Especially if their in a pantheon. God A says their paladin acted in accordance with their code and God B says they didn't when God B is say Odin and God A Thor?

This is a great point. Some gods in PF have specific modifications to the paladin code (Archive in think has them) but thats a good point about certain deities allowing certain behaviors.

Also i wouldnt used Thor/Odin as the example, maybe Odin/Thor since they are different pantheons (i doubt Zeus has any LG paladins though)

I mean I wouldnt debate the little things at my table, not saying thats badwrongfun but i dont like strict weight limits or that kinda play. If people arent having fun then you should probably talk it out instead of brooding and hating a class. Sometimes the Paladin is being a pain in the ass Boy Scouts, sometimes the other PCs are being pain in the ass Murderhobos that are doing things just because they can.

necromental wrote:
the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:
Unassuming Local Guy wrote:
the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:
Lord Mhoram wrote:

Considering Butcher is a gamer, and has explicitly stated he wrote Micheal to be the perfectly played paladin, I would agree with you. And so would Jim. :)

Heh. I was just thinking there's a sequence in Death Masks where if I were DMing Michael would totally have fallen.
This better be a crazy good pun to the fight scene where he literally falls on a Denarian
Nah, I'm dead serious. I don't want to be too spoilery, but end of chapter 28 is definitely a falling offence.
There are spoiler tags...read it over a year ago cant remember what are you talking about and dont have books on me.

I had to go back and check on it because i had forgotten as well. Yeah is a grey moment where

Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden:
Beats the crap out of a defenseless former Denarian who he interrogating about the world ending plague curse and who he ends up crippling, Micheal is there and kinda tries to stop him but then kinda doesn't.

This is a great moral moment because you know..greater good and such.

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the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:
Lord Mhoram wrote:

Considering Butcher is a gamer, and has explicitly stated he wrote Micheal to be the perfectly played paladin, I would agree with you. And so would Jim. :)

Heh. I was just thinking there's a sequence in Death Masks where if I were DMing Michael would totally have fallen.

This better be a crazy good pun to the fight scene where he literally falls on a Denarian

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Paladins should be more like Micheal Carpenter from the Dresden Files, I walk my path and I liked you to walk it with me but I'm not going to force you, also lets kill demons.

I'm currently playing a Paladin in a home campaign and I'm playing it pretty cool, no boy scouts you gotta obey the law stuff. My issue is more like whats been said up post about CG/CN characters being more E. Like a rogue who just takes things because he can, like focus on the quest bro stop being goofy.

EDIT: Also we have to remember IRL Laws and PF laws are different.

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Lady-J's high power game style is something of public knowledge at this point. It is possible her games aren't comparable because of it. What may be true, if irregular, for her might not carry through to some tables.

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DRD1812 wrote:
Unassuming Local Guy wrote:
Oh so we aren't even hiding the troll posts anymore? Kinda lacks the subtly of the art but okay fine.

Not a troll. The title may be silly, but the question is in earnest. This really happened to me in a recent game, and I'm trying to get the community's take.

When I assumed we were dealing with refugees, I thought it had the potential to be an interesting plot hook. In my mind we would heal up the enemy wounded, apologize for the misunderstanding, and then ally ourselves with a desperate band of honest folk who had fled the lands of Lord Evildark. For my money, that's an interesting beginning to a quest chain. It was the "JK they were just moonshiners" bit that felt off to me.

I don't mind the (very) occasional moral dilemma. It's the jerking the players around just for shiggles that bothers me. What I'm asking here is where GMs should draw that line.

Well I mean if it doesn't develop into anything further than yeah its just a dick move. If it was a hook (like you got arrested for it and met the quest giver in prison) or something more then I guess I'd be annoyed but yeah "hey look I tricked you nerds" from the GM would make me want to find a new gaming table. This actually comes in the vein for some other posts floating around the forums

Railroads v. Sandbox.

Trusting your GM.

TL;DR If it has a purpose then its less annoying, if your GM just tricked you for s&#+s and gigs then you've got a real issue.

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graystone wrote:
Unassuming Local Guy wrote:
Oh so we aren't even hiding the troll posts anymore?

If that's to me, I'm not trolling. What the OP suggests has, and will in the future, result in conflict between the DM and players. I've personally see thrown dice after 'gatcha/catch 22' situation, so while it was said humorously, it has a point: It's seen as bad form by a LOT of players and people really do flip the table/mat when they get hosed.

If it was to The_Superior_Dudemeister, I think that has a point to. 1 'gatcha/catch 22' is too much so asking how many more is ok is kind of... Well, why not suggest an absurdly large number to illustrate the absurdity of the question?

No my apologizes, this was to OP. I honestly thought this was a troll post in the vein of goblin orphanage/does the paladin fall type nonsense that gets in the way of honest to goodness bloodshed.

I'm amazed at how quickly people get bored with endless class combinations, 6 books deep of monsters and much more to play Chinese Room thought experiments and apparently trick their friends into war crimes.

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Oh so we aren't even hiding the troll posts anymore? Kinda lacks the subtly of the art but okay fine.

When did d20 games become a giant stage to tests morality and perils of humanity?

I feel like its pretty easy to give the PCs an out in this kind of situation, and not doing so is just you doing a Mister Burns behind the DM screen as they fall into "your trap".

The Sideromancer wrote:
yeah, but it's a cool 5 year old thread.

I love these forums.

Yeah a was thinking Brawler for the Martial Flex, giving him that seemingly good at everything feel.

I'm actually going this exact same thing with my aasimar paladin. My GM just agreed to let me take save the level 9 feat till level 10. I know mechanically that not how the game works but its really only hurting me because I'm down a feat for a level.

Would he not be a gunslinger? or am I missing something?

I think its GM call at this point. Probably related to how long the creature has been undead.

Say if it was Necropolis with many undead living together, the older ones have probably shared language and they all might speak Necril as a common language.

But say a dwarf that was alive an hour ago and has now been raised, he's still probably speaking Common or Dwarven.

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Oh hey thread, haven't seen you in a while.

I can't seem to find it but a quick review of the Language skill reveals Necril as a logical choice s Chromantic stated.

There's an entry in the Carrion Crown AP that mentions types of common undead languages...Sec.


Core Rule Book:

Identify the properties of a magic item using detect magic. Spellcraft DC: 15 + item's caster level

When using detect magic or identify to learn the properties of magic items, you can only attempt to ascertain the properties of an individual item once per day. Additional attempts reveal the same results.


You detect magical auras. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.

1st Round: Presence or absence of magical auras.

2nd Round: Number of different magical auras and the power of the most potent aura.

3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Knowledge (arcana) skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura: DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + 1/2 caster level for a nonspell effect.) If the aura emanates from a magic item, you can attempt to identify its properties (see Spellcraft).

I'm confused, it detects auras...period

Klorox wrote:
oops, how absentminded of me.

I didn't see it either and the same thing was explained to me in the thread I linked, thus prompting my line of questioning.

So another thread

The thread

Prompted a question/thought.

As its explained to me, the item in question is 3.5 not PF. So if I wanted to use it...do I just use those stats and beg the GM? or does that mean its not balanced for the Pathfinder d20 system and thus needs a tinker to work in PF?

I'm just curious and the answer will probably help me understand the game better.

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Lost In Limbo wrote:
Unassuming Local Guy wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
If your GM is allowing 3.5 items in their Pathfinder game (Celestial Plate is not a Pathfinder item) then it should work, pending their approval.

It claims its from a PF module Skeletons of Scarwall.

Not saying you are wrong, I'm curious as to what I'm reading, its quite possible I'm mistaken and I could learn something from this. Is it not a "PF legal" module or something? (I'm not goung to even ask if its PFS legal)

Skeletons of Scarwall is a very old module, from back when Pathfinder was just a campaign setting and not a separate game system from 3.5.

Thank you, that makes so much sense and is very helpful

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Nefreet wrote:
If your GM is allowing 3.5 items in their Pathfinder game (Celestial Plate is not a Pathfinder item) then it should work, pending their approval.

It claims its from a PF module Skeletons of Scarwall.

Not saying you are wrong, I'm curious as to what I'm reading, its quite possible I'm mistaken and I could learn something from this. Is it not a "PF legal" module or something? (I'm not goung to even ask if its PFS legal)

Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

Eh I think the PCs would be more likely to be after ascending to the position of the horsemen themselves. That'd be a way more interesting plot.

Otherwise I don't see why they'd specifically target the horsemen. The Demon lords seem like a much more present and relevant problem to like, all of creation.
Daemons have been at absolute destruction since before Demons were even a thing and haven't done as much damages as Demons have to all of creation and the Demons aren't even trying to destroy it all.
+ the horsemen don't really have lieutenants in the typical sense the most powerful Daemons although agents of them are actually their closest rivals and vying for their position. They'd probably help the PCs. Lord knows they need help, Charon is the original horseman and death and have never been unseated so yeah they need some new blood. xD
Also from a lore point of view the horsemen working together seems unlikely unless they're ... you know... bringing the apocalypse...

and any legendary hero that walks into that 50ft by 50ft room is a moron.

well unless they like have one PC blast down the wall whilst another has a readied action to cast an augmented mythic time stop. In which case sure.... but them augmented mythic time stop is quite insane and requires MR10 xD

I agree though, the horsemen would be going all out. And they can Blaspheme at will sooo... yeah.

Well I guess then its mythic rocket tag and it's a silly thought experiment.

Again we are extrapolating like this is a Cthulhu or Lucifer fight but for example Karzoug the Claimer BBEG from ROTRL reads as this.

During Combat Karzoug starts combat at a height of 40 feet above the soul lens—he strives to remain out of melee as long as possible. On round one of combat, he casts meteor swarm on the party, then uses his rod to cast time stop as a quickened spell. During the 1d4+1 rounds he gains, he casts spells like prismatic wall, wall of force, and cloudkill among the PCs to disrupt their tactics, and casts defensive spells on himself like spell turning, true seeing, and globe of invulnerability. He’ll also use his wand of stoneskin on himself at this time. When time stop ends, Karzoug hits the PCs with area affecting spells like wail of the banshee and horrid wilting, saving spells like temporal stasis and maze to use against anyone who seems to be particularly dangerous. Karzoug’s glaive takes actions on its own as well, unleashing fireballs on non-spellcasters and curing Karzoug of wounds whenever he drops below 220 hit points. If it comes down to melee, Karzoug releases his glaive to dance as soon as possible, fighting with his talons and using quickened spells like lightning bolt and magic missile to support his attacks

I'll admit that he has no Mythic abilities so there's no way to know what he would do if he did, but this is a man who has watched the PCs (in some cases before they even knew he existed), so same case as above, the PCs need to die, he knows who they are and what they've done to hinder him.

Yet he doesn't "go guns blazing" but from the start he makes it known that this is a fight like no other (again also AP) but again, that's what I'm talking about.

Even though its been mentioned that high lvl Pathfinder is rocket tag (I believe specifically ICBMs were mentioned) I have enjoyed readign this thread.

My only regret is that my lack experience with mythic tiers leads to my lack of contribution to the thread.

I can only think of AP stat blocks, where the creatures have DURING COMBAT sections about how they proceed, buff, retreat etc.

Maybe assuming that the Horsemen (and horses) fight like PCs (suns out, guns out) is what turns it into the aforementioned rocket tag. Is it really fair to assume that's how they would attack? I mean there's four of them, they've got access to a lot of firepower, maybe they last ditch blasphemy.

Just saying, it might help thinking this way so the conversation does go total cheese/power game; where reasonably geared, prepared and informed PCs stand more than a six second chance.

Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

Aside of Pharasma, Milani is another one I'm quite fond off.

Amongst Demi gods I'm quite fond of Arshea, Baba Yaga (if she counts, I'd argue she should),

I agree, Baba Yaga is awesome.

Cayden Cailean, I mean who doesn't like this guy.

Also I've always like Pharasma, she's got a cool attitude about her

Stats for ref?

ah I see that now

d20pfsrd wrote:


You may change one feat to another through retraining. Retraining a feat takes 5 days with a character who has the feat you want. The old feat can’t be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability. If the old feat is a bonus feat granted by a class feature, you must replace it with a feat that you could choose using that class feature.

Note that this retraining is unrelated to the fighter ability to learn a new bonus feat in place of an old one at certain class levels. That class ability is free, happens instantly when the character gains an appropriate fighter level, doesn’t require a trainer, and can happen only once for any appropriate fighter level. Retraining a feat requires you to spend gp, takes time, requires a trainer, and can happen as often as you want.

That seems kinda weird to find a person who has Angel Wings wait 5 days with them and think about it till wings shoot out of my back. I can see why they did that mechanic wise but I'll just see if they DM will let me sit on the feat "slot" till 10th lvl. Really I'm only putting myself at a disadvantage but we aren't playing a power game campaign,

Clarifying question.

Do you have to declare a feat when you gain the level (say 9th or 11th)? or can you wait until you qualify for a feat you want?

For example with my character: Aasimar paladin 9 I want to take the feat

d20pfsrd wrote:


Prerequisites: Angelic Blood, aasimar, character level 10th.

I already took Angelic Blood and an a Aasimar so I'm good there but I'm not 10th lvl. Can I wait?

The only text I can find on this is in the CRB section on feats

CRB wrote:
A character can gaina feat at the same time at which he gains the prerequisite

But that's not the resounding YES or NO that I'm looking for

Chemlak wrote:

I think I'd go custom monster, and also create a custom subsystem in which a small number of the town's population is possessed every day.

Say you start off with just 20 possessed citizens (good number, enough to suggest serial murderer). For every 20 possessed citizens, an additional 1d6 are possessed each day (or every few hours, or however long you think suits your needs).

This does a couple of things - first, it avoids the "kill them all" thing, because it's really only a fraction of the whole (to start with). Secondly, it adds confusion because a citizen that wasn't possessed yesterday could be possessed today (just make sure that it can't be anyone that the PCs were in direct contact with at the time the possession should have happened). And third, it sets a definite escalating time pressure to find the source, since eventually the whole town will be possessed. Maybe have one of the PCs approached at some point by a possessed citizen who's trying to take them away to get them possessed.

And as for the custom monster, I'd "hidden leader" the situation. Set things up so that there's a central possessor (works well if it's someone well respected in town that the PCs already know) and their destruction terminates the possession of that town, but the real demon isn't actually there... ready made future adventure.

Yes i definitely think like a time line of events like this would be the best approach, that way you don't have to lead the PCs by the hand to the objective, eventually they'll be so many "infected" that it'll basically be obvious. Also it rewards the PCs for being observant, if they catch on early they'll be less "infected" to deal with.

So like above, yeah a total amount of infected that increases over time, and they have a tell...idk maybe they don't blink or have knowledge from conversations they weren't privy to.

Maybe there's a goal, to make it super obvious if they PCs don;t catch on, like after 75% of the town is infected BBEG Khan tries to pull of a ritual in the town square at midnight.

On that note, maybe thats another tell, maybe all the infected have to go meet up with Khan in the middle of the night to renew the spell/whatever controlling them.

Anguish wrote:

If they have a discussion with one infected NPC, you could have another NPC aware of that conversation and refer to it. If you're subtle enough, they won't catch on.

Is this like Rick and Morty episode with his ex GF Unity? One of the infected gets drunk and then all of the infected get sick?

I'm hoping this post will be updated with the eventual story of how this plays out in your campaign.

As for the mechanics side I cant think of anything else that wasn't already said.

I agree the vermlek special abilities would be good for your host creature. Especially heightening the danger if they can see it run away and come back eventually. Then they'll be wondering who they can trust etc.

Even the +8 to Disguise is good if you want the Dominated person (assuming you are keeping it that way) for the PCs to spot something odd about the person, maybe the demon controlling them forgets to make them blink or something.

Please make sure that the demon with the ear bugs is named Khan though.

To that note, what does the main demon controlling everyone look like? Just a CR level appropriate demon or have you gotten that far yet?

Dotting for eventual story time.

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There's some good advice here

Improved Initiative: Spiderman

So this thread is giving me great ideas. but I had a question

Cao Phen wrote:

We all know the 1-2 level dip, Fighter to grab extra feat(s), Lore/Nature Oracle to get CHA to AC, Medium with the Spirit Focus feat to get +2 Attack/+4 Damage, Paladin for CHA to Saves, Rogue with Evasion, etc.

With respect to that above part about Oracles i saw this posted in a thread about frontline tanks

Paladins are pretty good at being tanky. With a 3-4 level dip or VMC in life oracle you make a global damage sponge for your team.

Why is the 3-4 level dip better than the 1 lvl I already had planned for my paladin? is there a class feature I'm just not seeing?

I see how we got here but...


sorry for yelling..

basically I'm an aasimar pally that doesn't have to be super optimized so im exploring options that are either A)flavorful b)fun c)silly.

Badbird's post is a good example. something I'd never thought of.

BadBird wrote:

From what I remember of Tyreal (though I guess it's more from D2, since I thought D3 cinematics were unbearably cheesy anime wannabe crap, and I ended up ignoring them), he fought with just a sword in one hand.

One cool way to run that would be wielding an estoc in one hand with Amateur Swashbuckler: Dodging Panache and a Swordmaster's Flair: Blue Scarf, and maybe Pommel Strike. Reach with a big one-handed sword is pretty good stuff, and Pommel Strike is pretty badass when you can't full attack anyhow (it has pros and cons vs. trip). When you can fly and have both reach and an immediate action move ability...

Well tyrial was just something a buddy said when i choose the character. I'm just looking for fun to play aspects of paladins, not necessarily min/max options.

I mean I took power attack at first level, but after that i probably might take angel blood/flesh/wings

Perfect, yes i need goofy paladin ideas.


I'm playing a homebrew campaign with some buddies. It's a six person party with good balance so I don't have to play super optimized. I was thinking of being silly and going like angel racial feats for full flavor like the post said I sweet talked the DM into letting me play angel-blooded aasimar.

So think, angel paladin flaming sword, Tyrael from Diablo vibe.

So i'm thinking, angel blood feat, angel wings, celestial armor and shield, angel skin.

Basically I'm looking for more things to add to the angel pally aasimar vibe, feats, equipment, silly things that would be fun to play.

I agree with Fruian, this exact concept is outlined as the main dungeon in book 5 of RoTRL. It's well written and a tough challenge.

Depends on how much money I had to be honest.

I think one corrupt/fun merchant would be fun if it was plot relevvant but at low level gold is so hard to come by it would be unwise to trick PCs into bad deals

As a player in RotRL (don't worry i'm in book five at this point) I see two major things that lead to easy encounters, Action economy and bane. Early on (books 2-4) our ranger figured out that giant humanoids were going to play a huge part, and a ranger with bane arrows and favored enemy can cut through a 5-6 group of giants like a hot knife through butter.

Also when they get to Mokmurian (boss book 4) he needs minions. We hit him with a gust of wind (the AP gives you a staff that can cast it) blew all his mists to s&+* and then basically cut him down easy.

Overall I'd suggest adding allies to group fights that are of a similar type to make it challenging for your large party and many minions to boss fights so they BBEG has time to get off the many spells and buffs they have.

I'm a fan of Carrion Crown, very horrorish, and Reign of Winter.

Yeah basically i clear the rangers line of sight when he gets hit with a mist/fog.

I skill monkey all the checks mostly. No real traps to speak of. Try and keep myself as invisible and useful as possible. Use touch attacks and black tentacles to keep casters in check.

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