I keep forgetting that actual Starfinder minis are coming... I have fallen in love with infinity and chronoscape minis for most PCs and have a mixed bag of ship options... it's weird to think but at this point the official minis are going to have to compete against the stuff I've already found. That's just a strange thought to me. Though I have such a weakness for ships that I will likely pick up those ones at least. Once they get to the stores. Was the issue with the curing on the minis resolved?
Bombardier soldiers get in on some fun but remember the bombarding fusion as well, stock up on multiple level 5 knives with this fusion and have a 1/day grenade for every situation :)
My go to, I think, will be a level 10 weapon with two bombard fusions and two grenades of wonder in it. Maybe use the class feature for a third one just to see what happens. Grenade of grenades or flood of squirrels or... yeah, fun.
Isaac Zephyr wrote:
I originally wanted a gun maze cored to a hacking kit. "Just give me fifteen more seconds... Done!" Then turn and your computer screen folds up into a handcannon and you blow a hole in an alien.
The Uniclamp allows this even better now, you can use the hacking kit while still having the weapon at the ready. One forward grip, one sight and two uniclamps, one for the hacking kit and the other for... hmm, cup holder or music player, depends on the campaign style I guess.
I can only imagine that the increased bulk in such a way isn't due to weight itself, but by the literally bulkiness being added to the weapon by the accessories. While that bipod may not actually weigh enough to increase the weight of it, the added size of it does make it, well, bulkier to carry around.
That would make a ton of sense except the bipod is retractable and folds for storage, it calls out a move action to deploy it. Plus, holy crap, the guns as illustrated are so bulky already that you couldn't tell if a bipod was there or not anyways.
I don't mind bumping a weapon up another point of bulk for a bipod and sight though, the benefits are awesome. Set up your accurate fusion, bipod stabilized, scoped sniper rifle and laugh at your zero penalty to hit at a mile range while negating their cover. The players may throw dice at you for this though. Add energetic to the stabilized fusion and an overcharging mechanic becomes an amazing sniper with whatever you put in their hands.
Beamed down from an orbiting ship, becoming PC and machine, power Xtreme!
I agree with you in broad strokes, in most cases the PCs are far better served by stripping out armor and counter measures for shields and heavy turret weapons. In my Dead Suns game I've rebuilt the tier 3 ship along those lines and the changes to combat are drastic, the front arc went from a possible 3D6+1D8 to a 8D6 in every arc. Past tier 5 the ability of groups to optimize for combat is shocking. TL is almost never worth boosting when a turreted defense weapon has a far better miss chance than TL provides, boosting PCU and shields is pretty cheap compared to what it gives you, and focusing on few, larger weapons, preferably in a turret mount, is a much better option than trying to fit medium output weapons in every arc.
And let their skill booster work in ship combat so they can captain well.
Hmm, that makes it worse. Not sure why but I had to read that passage multiple times before it occurred to me that bed rest might only apply to poisons. I would have preferred the recovery method for each type to be under that types header in the chapter, would have made it a bit clearer.
The disease tracks are brutal but aren't they easy-ish to handle with bed rest? Or does the remove affliction blurb at the introduction of afflictions only apply to poison and drugs? I read it as, a day or bed rest automatically moves you up one step on the track, bed rest and a passed save moves you two steps.
Hiruma Kai wrote:
This was actually rather eye opening for me. The super awesome thing that solarians get is stellar rush at level two... everything else is really cool but not enough to push me towards solarian over soldier. I am going to mock up a solarian 2/soldier X and see how well I like that. Maybe blitz 1-3, solarian for 4 and 5 and then back to blitz for the rest. Get the standard action charge, +1 damage, +1 AC and the saves boost...
Zoggy Grav wrote:
Play with solar armor and use a reach weapon, stellar rush is a standard action that includes an attack, the reach weapon keeps you out of their threatened area and you have a move action leftover to get to cover with.
I prefer armor over weapon, the weapon still needs a crystal that costs the same as any other weapon and only makes you competitive with a weapon when you use one, but the armor stacks with every light armor in the game and adds freebies to it that dont take up any armor slots. The always available nature of the weapon is too niche to make it stand out to me and melee weapons have more variance to them so I favor the extra range of options when not using the solar weapon. (reach crystal when?!) Solar armor also helps you build for mobility which us vital for melee characters and the energy resist is almost worth more than AC anyways.
Hopefully the armory book will include reach property crystals, otherwise, this makes advanced melee weapons even better for solarions.
I GM for a group with a solarion in it, the PC has high strength and charisma and didn't take heavy armor so they are just resigned to eating every hit that goes their way. The damage is superb though, higher single target damage than any other character by a decent margin and excellent accuracy to pair with it. They are still looking for a role in ship combat though. When the Envoy isnt here then they are captain, if the envoy makes it to game night then they are a secondary gunner. They are also the limiting factor on adventure days as they need to spend resolve after every fight in addition to hp loss so they burn through resources faster than any other PC.
No one minds though so it is working for us. So far.
Someday I want to try out a blitz 1/solarion X using solar armor and advanced melee weapons. I still think it is overall a more versatile option.
So today I inflicted some diseases among the PCs and we noticed that once weakened there are some serious penalties to weapon damage... which makes sense for melee weapons or bows but is a really weird effect considering guns, lasers and rockets. I realize this may have been intentional but we were surprised enough to wonder if this was this a hold over from pathfinder where most weapons relied on the character's strength instead of an outside power source? Accuracy penalties, sure, but how is my grenade less explosive-y when I am sick?
House ruling these checks by rolewouldnt be too hard:
Captain, flat DC for a +2 each round. Making a demand is based off the character being demanded.
Pilot, flat DC determined by the action they are taking, this would effectively lock a lot of stunts beyond low levels. I am ok with this, being a better pilot let's you do more things.
Gunner, DC set by enemy ship.
Science officer, DC set by enemy ship.
Engineer, DC set by tier of your ship, as the complexity of your ship goes up so does the difficulty in maintaining it.
Overall this is a very small change but it seems like it addresses Mr. Jade's concerns
Oh, true. There is also a species now with a bonus on unpowered (or is it analog?) Weapons. Either way, a racial bonus to attack rolls is pretty strong in this game, especially when its tied to a weapon trait instead of a favored enemy.
Mr Jade wrote:
That's interesting, I was posting on another forum earlier in praise of how Starfinder handled ranged and melee. Melee specialists flushing gun users out of cover to be picked off by allies and creating choke points to hold off monsters to defend the ranged players has kept everyone involved and feeling like their movements were just as important as their attacks. They have really rolled over some encounters by changing angles of attack to get around cover or using the surprise melee rush to break a formation... freaking solarian grenade. It's too bad that your group has not enjoyed the system, I think it's pretty good as is with a lot of potential for improvement over time... but I acknowledge that you all don't have to like what I like ;)
Mr Jade wrote:
I have never seen it myself but there is supposed to be a D20 Traveller system out there... which is a weird thought, Traveller does not lend itself well to things like leveling up or much in the way of growing stronger, it is more of the encourage you to figure out what to do with a character that has very little to offer outside of an interesting backstory style of play. Some editions are more bounded and biased towards capable characters but in almost all editions rewards are in money and prestige, you don't really upgrade from basic starting gear aside from maybe getting your hands on some military grade or artifact grade stuff if the GM makes it available. Normally the party is several million in debt for a starting scout vessel and most caplmpaigns are based around how to make the next payment on time and not get any of your people killed to do it. Saving or overthrowing the galaxy is just a byproduct of paying the bills.
As for Starfunder, aside from the ship system, what is off putting for your players?
Dread Moores wrote:
I still think the system works quite well. I don't mean to imply that it was something bolted on at the last minute with no real work. But if you're looking for a Traveller level of interaction...then you're probably looking in the wrong place. Starfinder is a great space fantasy game, that also happens to have ship combat and creation rules. Traveller is a sci-fi game with hardwired ship rules. Two very different design philosophies there, and two very different end results.
Whoops, my bad. I thought you were implying it was a last minute bolt on. I fully agree with you, Starfinder and Traveller may both be Science Fantasy games but they have very different feels and ways of going about things.
Dread Moores wrote:
This is actually the first I've heard that the ship system was anything other than a core part of the design. It does fit with ships not interacting with any other part of the game but I had chalked that up to the few resources available so far. I still expect a "highguard" style book to come out and greatly expand on the rules and options for ships.
Though the BP system is a bit handwavium, it is a lot easier to manage and helps maintain system balance. Otherwise, nothing would be stopping the PCs from selling their ship and spending the fortune on
Oh, totally, BP saves you from a weird headache of trying to balance use of wealth and massive debt over a scaling level and value system. How can you justify buying a new particle beam, and turret mount for it no less, when your basic ship still has a 25 million credit loan on it?
But it is also somewhat limiting, you generally have one, maaayybee two weapon rolls each round; the game doesn't model scale at all with an interceptor not being too different from a destroyer until you get around tier 8 or so when the twin linked plasma from the smallest ship falls behind the firepower of a ship around twenty times its size; The PCs don't have any easy by the book way of piloting Large+ ships which puts an artificial cap on how much firepower they can bring to a fight... I would say a tier 20 ship for a party of 4-5 isn't bringing much more dakka to the table than a tier 12. The higher level just gets better shields and a few extra hexes of movement or a small boost in computer bonuses. And as always, you cant readily model a light carrier or squadron based game in the current rules, even with a sensor net and launch tubes you are going to need a lot of GM fiat... and tiny ships stop being a threat to large ships after a certain point due to weapon restrictions.
Still, all things considered, the ship system is in a good place for how little there is for it so far.
Mr Jade wrote:
I don't think you can use the term munchkin with Starfinder just yet, the distance between ground and ceiling on optimization is one floor with an unfinished basement and an overhead crawl space.
Assume a +2-4 in the skill's ruling stat, increase it every five levels and assign it at least your secondary stat augment. This is really bare minimum, if your players are upset they cant pass a skill check for an off class skill that they have a 13 or less in than no one can help you. Assuming you are in a ship role that benefits from theme bonus (forget that in previous posts, add an extra +1 to maximum values) or a class bonus, (operative, mechanic, technomancer, mystic and envoy will all start with this, and a +8 at level 1 is really, really easy to come by. If it is a skill they expect to be using often, computers or engineering being two of the most common skills in the game, skill focus isn't that hard to imagine. Even without that, about half the classes in the game get automatic scaling bonuses that will match skill focus soon enough. The closest to "munchkin" you can claim is a species with a racial bonus, which by my math just makes ship checks ridiculously easy.
Look at pilot role again, at level one with a ranged character, the default assumption for this game, a 16 starting Dex which isn't yet maxed out. Assuming they are an Ace Pilot and then your looking at an easy +10 (1 rank, 3 class, 3 ability, 1 theme, 1-3 misc feat/racial/class) from the get go. If you want to really munchkin with it, a racial +2, a maxed out stat and either operative or skill focus can bring that up to +14 for a Core Only optimization. Assuming a 7 baseline kind of lowballing things.
Sure, you can front load things a bit so that you start off with slightly better odds than you'll have at later levels but the odds are staying good without the captain or a computer as long as you are playing a class strong class or spend a feat to compete. That's not too much of an investment.
I don't follow your charts.. I mean, at level 1, 1 rank, 3 ability mod, 3 class skill, 1 class bonus feature (bypass, operative's edge etc.) Gives a +8 vs at highest a DC 16. At level 5 that should be at least a 14 against a DC of 22. Before computer or captain.
Assume you raised you skill mod to a +4 at level 5 and maybe even put your +2 augment in that slot, a feat or class ability for a +3 skill bonus. So that level five character brings a +16 against a DC 22. If it is really vital then you can ask for the +2-4 from captain and computer. If it just has to be done let the captain demand it and you've got a +20-22 vs DC 22.
At level 10. 10 ranks, 5-6 ability mod, 3 class skill, 3-4 skill boosting feat or class ability. Likely minimum of +21 vs DC 30. Maybe up to 23? 25 for a lashunta or other racial bonus race, and again, if you cant risk failure, +2-7 between captain and computer.
My issue with ships comes more from, the game pushes for these designs with lots of guns in all the arcs but the BP and Power Core limits coupled with generally small parties means almost everything will be built with one or two large turret guns and nothing else. This removes most of the need to maneuver around unless every fight has weird space clouds and asteroids everywhere...
And on a more minorn note, the sense of scale for ships is really weird. Large ships should have lots of space and probably either more expansions bays or expansion bays that do more when on a larger ship. I just looked at the deck plans for a Large ship from the AP and it's actually much smaller than the Medium ship the PCs have. More of an annoyance than anything else though, the BP and PC system is more frustrating.