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My team recently acquired a heavy freighter and a few additional parts and I wanted to get some rule clarifications about starships, build points, weapons, mounts, and the process for uggrading a starship.
First, when building a starship I understand the rules around build points and their distribution, so I am clear. I also understand that additional systems require additional build points and those increase as your party's APL increases.
The central problem I have is in understanding the upgrade paths available around weapon mounts and turrets.
Let's look at the Heavy Freighter as our example:
Mounts forward arc (1 heavy, 2 light), port arc (1 heavy),
starboard arc (1 heavy)
There are no turret mounts stated on this ship as it reads in the rules , as it does for say, the destroyer (turret 1 light).
For New Weapon mounts it states:
By spending 4 BP, the crew can upgrade a light weapon mount in any of the aft, forward, port, or starboard arcs to a heavy weapon mount. (This means for the Heavy Freighter I could spend 8 BP and upgrade both light mounts on the front arc to heavy mounts and have heavy mounts all the way around)
By spending 6 BP, the crew can upgrade a light weapon mount on a turret to a heavy weapon mount. (This does not apply to the Heavy Freighter as it has no turrets).
By spending 3 BP, the crew can fit a new light weapon mount
in any of the aft, forward, port, or starboard arcs with enough
free space. (This would allow the heavy freighter to fit 2 additional light weapon mounts on the cost of 12 BP - 6 for the port and 6 for the starboard. These could then be upgraded to heavy per the above rules.)
By spending 5 BP, the crew can fit a new light weapon
mount on a turret that has enough free space. (This would not apply to the heavy freighter as it does not have a turret.)
The rules then outline the maximum number of mounts per arc and per turret a ship can have based on it's size.
My problem is that I don't see anywhere nor any way by which you can add a turret to a starship that doesn't already have one based on it's frame.
Is this not possible?
Can a ship frame which does not have a turret in it's list of mounts have one added and if so, what are the restrictions and costs associated with it?
Also if a ship has no mounts listed in an arc (for example a freighter has no mounts for it's aft arc) can those be added?
Page 294
Each starship has a base frame that determines its size,
maneuverability, starting weapon mounts, hull strength, room
for expansion, and other capacities.
Page 305
When upgrading a
weapon, remember that the starship’s frame starts with a certain
number and type of weapon mounts
Page 305
By spending 5 BP, the crew can fit a new light weapon
mount on a turret that has enough free space.
You're interpreting this last bit in much a negative way.
Having no weapons mounts in a turret means it has a lot of free space, not that it can't have a weapon mount installed.
Using your example of a heavy freighter, a large frame:
Medium and Large starships can have only three weapon
mounts per arc (and per turret).
You can't add a fourth mount on the turret, only three.
//
The heavy freighter is light (zing!) on weapon mounts 'cause it's not a ship designed for combat, as its name implies.
Not sure on the maths, but I suppose adding new weapons mounts to frames that don't start with them might not be very cost effective, BP wise.
My problem is that I don't see anywhere nor any way by which you can add a turret to a starship that doesn't already have one based on it's frame.
Is this not possible?
Can a ship frame which does not have a turret in it's list of mounts have one added and if so, what are the restrictions and costs associated with it?
Also if a ship has no mounts listed in an arc (for example a freighter has no mounts for it's aft arc) can those be added?
It’s not explicit but there are a few clues that you can do both of these things:
The AP includes an explorer with an aft weapon mount and a shuttle with a turret (neither of which exist on the base frame).
The first AP instalment was probably written whilst the rules were in flux, so drawing inference from what’s in there is probably somewhat fraught. What I consider to be the strongest evidence is from the core rules:
page 305 states that tiny and small starships can have two weapon mounts per arc (and turret) but no tiny or small frame has a turret by default.
So in your situation, you can:
- add two light mounts to the port and starboard arcs (for 3BP each)
- add three light mounts to the aft arc (for 3 BP each)
- add three light mounts to the “turret arc” (for 5 BP each)
- upgrade any of the non-turret light mounts to heavy (for 4 BP each)
- upgrade a previously added turret light mount to heavy (for 6 BP each)
My problem is that I don't see anywhere nor any way by which you can add a turret to a starship that doesn't already have one based on it's frame.
Is this not possible?
Can a ship frame which does not have a turret in it's list of mounts have one added and if so, what are the restrictions and costs associated with it?
Also if a ship has no mounts listed in an arc (for example a freighter has no mounts for it's aft arc) can those be added?
It’s not explicit but there are a few clues that you can do both of these things:
The AP includes an explorer with an aft weapon mount and a shuttle with a turret (neither of which exist on the base frame).
The first AP instalment was probably written whilst the rules were in flux, so drawing inference from what’s in there is probably somewhat fraught. What I consider to be the strongest evidence is from the core rules:
page 305 states that tiny and small starships can have two weapon mounts per arc (and turret) but no tiny or small frame has a turret by default.
So in your situation, you can:
- add two light mounts to the port and starboard arcs (for 3BP each)
- add three light mounts to the aft arc (for 3 BP each)
- add three light mounts to the “turret arc” (for 5 BP each)
- upgrade any of the non-turret light mounts to heavy (for 4 BP each)
- upgrade a previously added turret light mount to heavy (for 6 BP each)
Thank you for the response Steve. I have seen ships with different setups as you have described and was hoping that Paizo would chime in with some clarifications around these questions as they seem to be outstanding questions and very basic ones.
I believe that the intention is to allow for ships, through upgrades, to add mounts in area's where they may not possess any (such as the transport not having any aft or starboard weapons mounts) and to allow for a turret to be added as well. I would just like to know the actual BP costs associated with those upgrade paths.
As you stated above and on page 305 it could be inferred from this sentence "By spending 3 BP, the crew can fit a new light weapon mount in any of the aft, forward, port, or starboard arcs with enough free space.", that on a heavy freighter with no aft weapon mounts (0) and being a large ship which is allowed three weapon mounts per arc, that adding a weapon mount to the aft arc would cost 3 BP. I would like to know the official stance on that.
That being said, I am still struggling to find additional information about turrets and adding them to a Starship. While there are no specific frames which have a turret on a small or tiny ship the rules do state the following "Tiny and Small starships can have only two weapon mounts per arc (and per turret)." To me this infers that they could be added. The question still remains.. how and the cost associated and how many could be installed per frame size category?
I believe that the intention is to allow for ships, through upgrades, to add mounts in area's where they may not possess any (such as the transport not having any aft or starboard weapons mounts) and to allow for a turret to be added as well. I would just like to know the actual BP costs associated with those...
I think those are known. You seem to believe that adding a turret is a separate issue/expense from adding the light weapon mount in the turret. I do not see it that way.
The rules are specific on the cost to add a weapon mount in a turret, so that's how much it costs to add one. If you had none, and you pay the cost, you add one. The turret is not a distinct thing from the weapon mount.
Weapon mounts are, literally, "a place to put the weapon". Turret mounts cost more - it includes the bits to make them spin around. (Ok I don't really believe that - I believe they cost more as a balance measure because they are more powerful otherwise everyone would only use turret mounts.) Buying the mount covers what you need to have it shoot at stuff. This is just my opinion and I can't cite a rule, but there's nothing that implies there's a separate cost for "the turret" either. For a different exercise, dig up the stats from the adventure path for the hippocampus - a tier 1 shuttle that was rigged up with a turret. Check the build points and see what it cost to add it.
I'm starting to think this is satire, but I'll keep hammering on:
Page 305: New Weapon Mounts
By spending 3 BP, the crew can fit a new light weapon mount
in any of the aft, forward, port, or starboard arcs with enough
free space.
By spending 5 BP, the crew can fit a new light weapon
mount on a turret that has enough free space.
Page 303: Weapons
Weapons must be installed on special mounts on a ship
Conclusions
New weapons mounts have a BP cost. New weapons have a BP cost.
If your frame doesn't come with a turret mount, you have to pay both the cost of the mount and the cost of the weapon to have a new turret weapon.
C'mon, there are only three pages on this topic and they are presented in a sequence.