Armory - Augmented Archetype Question


Rules Questions


"Nested Augmentations (Ex) 4th Level
Whether it’s because your body is especially receptive to
modification or you’re able to adjust your modifications to fit
alongside one another, you can use more augmentations at
once than other creatures can. You can install one additional
augmentation into one system that already has an augmentation.
You can have no more than two augmentations in that system,
even if you have another ability that grants you a similar benefit."

Does this mean that you can add an additional augment to any system that already has one or does it mean that you can only double up on one system at a time?


One part and one part only can have two augments in it. Which part that is though is up to you, once chosen you will have to remove the second augment if you want to double up on any other system.


Okay that was what I was figuring it to be. Cause to see it the other way would be broken as hell.


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L4ughingm4n wrote:
Okay that was what I was figuring it to be. Cause to see it the other way would be broken as hell.

It should be noted that Biotechnicians get an extra augmentation at 12th level and Verthani start with an extra slot as well.

We are going to get some chromed-up bladeboi shadowrunners before this is all over.


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Dracomicron wrote:
L4ughingm4n wrote:
Okay that was what I was figuring it to be. Cause to see it the other way would be broken as hell.

It should be noted that Biotechnicians get an extra augmentation at 12th level and Verthani start with an extra slot as well.

We are going to get some chromed-up bladeboi shadowrunners before this is all over.

Uh-oh... You got the ol'gears ah turning.


All hail the street samurai!


um I read that as you can nested for any and all systems such as 2 for skin, hand, throat. usually you can only have 1 per system in any part, you’re able to adjust your modifications to fit
alongside one another, you can use more augmentations at
once than other creatures can. Ie put an extra along side any other. Now here's my question,
PERSONAL UPGRADES
Personal upgrades are a special class of
augmentation that do not follow the
normal system-limitation rules. Instead,
these are broad upgrades that make
changes across your entire body, while
still allowing for other augmentations.

so if it's one system I probably would choose the personal upgrades nested I mean 2 mark 1's, 2 mark 2's, and 2 mark 3's you know. It says they are augmentations after all. But I rather take it at it's word that it's all the systems anywhere you could have 1 augment you could have 2, I mean you do lose stuff from your class for the Archetype path.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

You can not double up (nest) on personal upgrade.


Venti5 wrote:

um I read that as you can nested for any and all systems such as 2 for skin, hand, throat. usually you can only have 1 per system in any part, you’re able to adjust your modifications to fit

alongside one another, you can use more augmentations at
once than other creatures can. Ie put an extra along side any other.
Quote:
You can install one additional augmentation into one system that already has an augmentation.

It is definitely not an additional augmentation into all slots.

And for personal upgrades, PG 212 of the Core rulebook:

Quote:
Personal upgrades are a special class of augmentation that do not follow the normal system-limitation rules.

Since they do not follow the normal rules of augmentations, they are not subject to other things that affect augmentations, unless it states specifically that it affects personal upgrades (which is incredibly unlikely).

I get that archetypes are a bit underwhelming, but no way should the Augmented archetype be that good.


Personal Upgrades: the whole sentence is they don't follow the normal system-limitation rules. It doesn't say they don't follow the rules that apply to augments just the system limiting ones. Just as a point to your answer, I would agree that nesting them would be overpowered, but I am pointing out the text. On that note if you took the Hybrid Personal Upgrade which says it is a symbiot I could argue that the level 3 Geneturge power Transform Biotech could change the upgrade, but I digress.

so your saying that if a soldier takes the archetype they give up their bonus feats for 2nd, 4th, 6th, 12th, and 18th Levels and wait for their secondary fighting technique until level 10 (which is rarely reached in organized play)

in order to get 1/2 price in one type of augment, a single additional augment in one system, the ability to power an item but not recharge a battery ie a portale level 1 charge cloak that costs a resolve to use and possibly overclock your personal upgrades for a few rounds.

That would be underwhelming and hardly as balanced as all the other archetypes. Most that I have looked at give a pretty good trade off for what you lose. Explain how the balancing works?


It's the fourth level ability. It's never going to be an extra 12 ability points over another character.

You select this archetype for the discount on expensive augmentations, and to double up on good systems like skin, spine, brain or throat slots (2x wyrm glands anyone?). The rest is to balance out saving your character hundreds of thousands of credits on things like antimagic skin, higher level blackhearts and such. It gives you some decent things in return for losing a lot of class features, but it's not an upgrade.

A lot of archetypes aren't amazing. Most are sidegrades even when built for.

'Personal upgrade' is not a system you can use nested augmentation on.

Nested Augmentations wrote:

You can install one additional

augmentation into one system that already has an augmentation.
You can have no more than two augmentations in that system,
even if you have another ability that grants you a similar beneft.

Even if it was? You'd end up with two total, not six.


Also, personal upgrades don’t have a ‘system’ that you install them into. Since they don’t take up a slot, you can’t point to the slot and say “I want two upgrades in there.”

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
CRB Page 212 wrote:
Each of your personal upgrades must be a different model number (for example, you cannot have three mk 1 upgrades, but you can have a mk 1, a mk 2, and a mk 3).

No, you can not use Nested Augmentations (or any other ability that allows more than 1 augmentation in a system) to get multiple Mk 1. personal upgrades. It's spelled out pretty explicit that they need to be of different model numbers.


Venti5 wrote:


so your saying that if a soldier takes the archetype they give up their bonus feats for 2nd, 4th, 6th, 12th, and 18th Levels and wait for their secondary fighting technique until level 10 (which is rarely reached in organized play)

You only lose 3 feats not 5.

The Augmented grants alternate class features at 2nd, 4th, 6th,
and 9th levels.


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Venti5 wrote:
That would be underwhelming and hardly as balanced as all the other archetypes. Most that I have looked at give a pretty good trade off for what you lose. Explain how the balancing works?

That's actually very much in line with the other archetypes; they're all pretty underwhelming for the most part.


Well for what it's worth, feats aren't all that impressive in Starfinder right now. My 9th level solider (no archetype) is having a hard time finding feats that are really "must haves". Basically everything is just a situational "well, I guess that could be useful".


It really depends on your soldier type.

Armor Storm really wants Mobility, Spring Attack, Shot on the Run, and Improved Bull Rush, these all have great synergy with that particular fighting style.

But yeah, for the most part, soldier bonus feats are pretty much the impulse buy candy section at the grocery store check out lane. Lots of "well, I have what I need... but, oh, a little peanut butter would be nice."


The 4th level ability specifically states 1 augment, that goes into 1 system. PUs do not go into a system, so they are not a valid option. This archetype is pretty strong already getting to Overclock their PUs at 9th level, we don't need to break the game by allowing them double PUs.

50% off augments is a huge discount, and you can select the same slot for your nested which means two augments at a huge discount, potentially more if you decide to trade one out down the line.

The extra charges means a mechanic can overcharge their weapon without as much of a dig into their weapons battery. Any class with a forcefield can potentially get a LOT more life out of that force field depending on how much RP they spend.

And have you read the 9th level ability? Basically says you get your choice of more to hit in melee, more movement speed, more stamina, better crits and int checks, better Wis and in it checks, or better cha checks and free reroll to allies. AND it combos nicely with the free charges for your forcefield. IMO Augmented is possibly the most universally powerful archetype regardless of one's role in combat.


Pogiforce wrote:


And have you read the 9th level ability? Basically says you get your choice of more to hit in melee, more movement speed, more stamina, better crits and int checks, better Wis and in it checks, or better cha checks and free reroll to allies.

The bold part isn't true. A strength enhancement that is boosted only gives you a bonus to strength/dex skill or ability checks. It doesn't help you hit anything.


Xenocrat wrote:
Pogiforce wrote:


And have you read the 9th level ability? Basically says you get your choice of more to hit in melee, more movement speed, more stamina, better crits and int checks, better Wis and in it checks, or better cha checks and free reroll to allies.
The bold part isn't true. A strength enhancement that is boosted only gives you a bonus to strength/dex skill or ability checks. It doesn't help you hit anything.

A melee attack is a strength based ability check, because you're adding your strength to a d20 roll. That's why it says strength ability checks, and not just strength checks.


Unclear.

"Sometimes, a situation or ability might require you to attempt something called an ability check. In such instances, instead of attempting a check involving both your abilities and other factors (such as skills or saving throws that reflect your training and expertise), you attempt a check using just 1d20 + your ability modifier. This represents you trying to use your raw, untrained talent for that particular ability, such as attempting a Strength check to kick down a door. See page 242 for more information."

Most characters are going to add more to an attack roll than a strength mod, as someone going through life trying to use 'raw, untrained talent' to fight devils and giants and such isn't going to last long. So, to me, no, it doesn't sound like an attack is a 'strength ability check.'

Seems exactly like something that would get argued forever though.


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An attack absolutely is not an ability check because it adds BAB. Ability checks only add an ability score to the d20 roll.

You'll note distinct glossary entries and page references for ability checks and attacks/attack rolls at the back of the core rulebook.

I wrote a comprehensive list of all ability checks in the core rulebook here.

Pantshandshake wrote:

Unclear.

"Sometimes, a situation or ability might require you to attempt something called an ability check. In such instances, instead of attempting a check involving both your abilities and other factors (such as skills or saving throws that reflect your training and expertise), you attempt a check using just 1d20 + your ability modifier. This represents you trying to use your raw, untrained talent for that particular ability, such as attempting a Strength check to kick down a door. See page 242 for more information."

You don't get to decide to attempt something as an ability check and define it as such, a rule tells you when an ability check is called for. No rule calls for an ability check to resolve an attack. Even if you're BAB is zero or you decide you don't want to use it (to attempt something like this Augmented cheese) you're not allowed to. Page 240 defines how you make an attack roll. You must add your BAB (even if zero), and by adding something other than attribute it's by definition not an ability check.


Then my GMs from Pathfinder were grossly misdefining ability checks.

Even omitting that one line though that's a lot of different things that you can do with one ability. To me this archetype looks really strong.


Pogiforce wrote:


Even omitting that one line though that's a lot of different things that you can do with one ability. To me this archetype looks really strong.

I agree that the level 9 and level 4 abilities are really strong. I think the 2nd level price savings are nice to have, and the 6th level ability is pretty meh.


I think when paired with a force field, and combined with the 9th level ability, you can get a lot of mileage out of the sixth level ability.


Pogiforce wrote:
I think when paired with a force field, and combined with the 9th level ability, you can get a lot of mileage out of the sixth level ability.

It's one charge per 1 RP spent, a force field has a usage of one charge per round. People just don't spend that much RP that fast or have that much.

Standard Batteries, not counting recharging, only cost 3 credits per charge. This is at best a tiny money savings or a rare "squeeze out one more use before I have to reload/recharge in combat" option.

The reduced RP to revive can be useful if you almost die regularly and are at the right level/augmentation number break point, although it's still wise to buy an Adrenal Booster that won't stack. The "burning and bleeding at 0 HP" recovery can surely save your life, though, on the rare occasions it might come up.


Still an extra round, an extra 3/5/10 points of damage not taken. As an envoy too you'd burn rp often enough.


Pogiforce wrote:
Still an extra round, an extra 3/5/10 points of damage not taken. As an envoy too you'd burn rp often enough.

It's only extra damage not taken if you're bad at battery management and you'd otherwise run out of charge mid-combat. Most people just change their batteries out after every combat: no combats last 20 rounds, and you can afford to have enough extra (no bulk, 60 credits) batteries to get you through this until you have a chance to recharge them.


Can you swap batteries though? From what I've read you can't put in a battery that has more capacity than the item can hold. Hence why 40 charge batteries can't go in 20 charge guns.all forcefield are ten charges. It's be like swapping out a watch battery with a double A.


Pogiforce wrote:
Can you swap batteries though? From what I've read you can't put in a battery that has more capacity than the item can hold. Hence why 40 charge batteries can't go in 20 charge guns.all forcefield are ten charges. It's be like swapping out a watch battery with a double A.

Oh, I forgot the early forcefields have that dumb sub-20 capacity. Yeah, you can't use my method until the level 10 white force field. But I also believe forcefields are a bad deal until high levels - 2 slots, an action to activate, and the tiny benefits on top of not going able to recharge in the field (short of the Recharge spell) is pretty poor.

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