Dipping blitz soldier lets a solarion use strength for resolve and gives them a much needed 10 feet of movement.
Yes, it's still floating around.
Dipping blitz soldier lets a solarion use strength for resolve and gives them a much needed 10 feet of movement.Yes, it's still floating around.
Huh. Well... it's silliness.
And this right here is the #1 reason that I feel a need to tinker with Solarians that I don't with any other class. They can fill a niche, they can keep up with other classes in their role, but they have taxes that no other class does. If you want to play a Solarian, your level 1 feat is going to be spent on either heavy armor proficiency or longarm proficiency (or your 1st level isn't even in Solarian) or you are just flat out doing it wrong. Yes, these are very common starting feats for other classes, but no other class demands them at 1st level (or at all, in many cases). On Solarians, it's not just a case of the feats being good, they are critical if you want to be able to perform at all. And they're proficiency feats. Not to mention that, while Solarians have advanced melee proficiency, they don't really have a way to use it. They will either have a solar weapon, or they will be too MAD to invest in strength and will have to go with longarms. And if they're going that route, their flashing strikes ability is totally unused. And then there's the whole sidereal influence issue. When I first saw the class I got excited at the prospect of a front-line tank with dark matter for armor and a big 'ol space-mace, but they're too MAD to do that. Ultimately, I feel like with the proficiency that are given, the proficiency that must be gained, and having to chose between which automatically acquired class abilities you want to be able to take advantage of, it just doesn't perform as its advertised, and that's what really bugs me.
But objectively if threads are still being made about the Solarian almost a year after the game was released maybe their class is too complicated or doesn't provide players with the tools to have fun.
You can't really judge things based on the forums here. By that same logic, people complain the Operative is overpowered (something I was guilty of), the Envoy lacks impact, and starship combat sucks. People very rarely come to the forums to praise design, and most of the above things I've mentioned require a bit of play to see them as wrong.
-You shouldn't have to dip into blitz soldier to make the character functional.
-You shouldn't have a penalty for disproportionate revelations if the powers on grav aren't that great. You shouldn't have to wait for "Future Releases"
-There shouldn't be a "feat tax".
-You shouldn't ignore half of a class concept because it's not as great as having a +1 to damage rolls.
I do however, agree with these statements on their own. Solarian is the only class missing at our table, mostly because of its MAD nature being deterrent, and with the collection of party members including a melee Soldier, and Envoy aiming for the captain role, there would be too much overlap and a Solarian would wind up second fiddle in any of the roles it fits easily (a problem we already had with a hacker Operative and a Mechanic). Due to that, I haven't seen it played to make a proper judgement, I can only make observations based on what's there.
As mentioned, I think they deserve some more skill points, and take a bit of system mastery to get right. In particular most classes can get away with 18, 12, 12 or 16, 16 for their arrays, but the Solarian pretty much needs 14, 14, 14. That feels odd, but with the tools of their kits, it works out (and as mentioned ability score progression does them favors).
Abilities wise, they aren't the only one where some options feel just flat better than others. Playing an Envoy I've got that experience and there a lot where I'm like "Yeah, Get 'Em is pretty much the best" or "When would I ever use Desperate Defense?" My table thought I was insane and our Soldier shook their head when I said I was making an 18 Cha character with 12 Dex and 12 Int, and only Intimidate based feats at level 1, but I've made it work.
I imagine myself if I were playing a Solarian, I may have a little trouble to start, but I also think half of the fun (for me) would be finding which Graviton powers I liked best to develop a playstyle around, as well as deciding with my limited choices what would fit best with the image of the character I wanted to play. After seeing Operatives cap their power spike around level 5 (though I still think their skill numbers are a pinch too high, 6+Int would be plenty considering their kit and options), I'd more than willing give the Solarian a chance as it is to see how it feels over a 10 level range before outright just saying "Yeah it sucks, rework it."
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Huh. Well... it's silliness.Dipping blitz soldier lets a solarion use strength for resolve and gives them a much needed 10 feet of movement.Yes, it's still floating around.
There's a big difference between presenting it as an option and saying "This is the only way to build".
Given it was in response to a group that already had a face character, its not an unreasonable suggestion, as duplicate charisma skills probably have less value to the group as a whole. Whether its a good choice for the player depends on how much value the save based abilities and if they're happy being a level behind on powers.
It no sillier than a dex based Sharpshooter soldier dipping 1 level of Solarian to grab +1 AC, +1 damage and a free skill synergy feat. Actually, now that I think about it...
And compared to some 3.5 Frankenstein creations I've run (Ranger 2/Psion (Egoist) 4/(Product Identity) Slayer 6/Shadow Dancer 2), pretty tame. :)
I did some on paper tinkering a while back to compare and contrast some classes. I built level 10 characters of each class and tried to come up with a concept that took a holistic approach to the game, with each character having something to do in combat, out of combat, and a role on a starship crew.
The Solarian was a Shobhad that was all about excercisizes his reach and size to keep targets in range, and get extra squares covered by the Corona power. Then I put together a melee soldier, a kasatha samurai-esque kind of guy. Had the arcane assailant mostly to exploit elemental vulnerabilities and to keep people in melee with the root power. Ultimately, (on paper, at least) the Solarian was more of a presence on the battlefield and had slightly but not negligibly higher damage, but had overall lower saving throws and other defenses, but in a fight, they seemed pretty balanced against one another. In the other two categories, though? As far as out-of-combat, they could both handle feats of athletics and whatnot. The Soldier could handle anything that had to do with engineering and had a solid (not great) sense motive, while the Solarian could basically just sense motive and do diplomacy. This, I think, is more a symptom how many more skills one has to invest in to be an effective social character versus an effective engineer or something like that. As far as crew roles went, the Soldier was a top-notch gunner, and could also make a passable engineer. The Solarian could be a passable gunner or a terrible captain.
The Soldier could handle anything that had to do with engineering and had a solid (not great) sense motive, while the Solarian could basically just sense motive and do diplomacy. This, I think, is more a symptom how many more skills one has to invest in to be an effective social character versus an effective engineer or something like that. As far as crew roles went, the Soldier was a top-notch gunner, and could also make a passable engineer. The Solarian could be a passable gunner or a terrible captain.
And that's kind of where I see the Solarian problem. Not in their revelations or builds (I actually took the time to read through it all after my last reply. Personally, I actually really like the Graviton revelations a lot mor. In particular I was drawn to the DR and AC granting ones, plus Staggering and Slow as abilities? I could make a hell of a CC support Solarian and still have enough Photon stuff to be a formidable damage force.) but in their lack of skills. They get 6 +1d6 skills, 3 at a time, and a mere 4 skill points a level.
They also have one of the few skill boosts that stacks with Skill Focus for 1d6+3, something that is beaten only by level 13+ Envoys. Even just 2 extra points so they could have max ranks in all 6 of their Sidereal skills. Not to mention they get Skill Adept, letting them pick two class skills of their choice, they have a lot of skill potential but really no points, and no incentive to invest in Int.
I would probably build the character I mentioned with 15 Str, 14 Dex, 10 Con, 10 Int, 10 Wis, 14 Cha. Probably boosting Str-Dex-Int-Cha for levels 5 and 10, putting my personal upgrades in +2 Str, +4 Dex to get more of my light armor (level 10 array 20, 22, 10, 14, 10, 18). Can't quite decide though if I'd want the Armor to maximize defenses, as most of my Graviton favorites are defensive, and what Photon I like would supplement an advanced melee weapon nicely. Or go the Weapon so I could play around with the weapon crystals and avoid having to buy weapons as often saving on credits (balancing a budget is hard), and be able to afford more Augmentations. Either way, the build has no need for Longarm or Heavy Armor proficiency since most of the focus is on Graviton support and being hard to hit, or locking foes down. As I kept things simple with a Human, starting feats probably a Skill Focus and Weapon Focus to supplement sub-16 start? Maybe Close Combat from Pact Worlds just to further boost AC for when I do get in there for combat. Of course as soon as possible: Enhanced Resistance, making up for fewer stamina points from a neutral Con by getting BAB as DR.
However, I'm not currently playing that character above, as I chose to be an Envoy. Hint why they have no theme and I went human just to get the stat array I wanted easier. Possibly Ace Pilot? Maybe Icon. Something offering Str, Dex, or Cha. Though really my floating +1 could be anywhere and not change the array at level 10. I also label myself as someone who from just raw tabletop experience (even if it's not all in Star/Pathfinder) someone with a good grasp of system mastery. The other members of my table frequently ask me for build advice as we go (our Soldier is Armor Storm max Str for example. His secondary he said was a toss up between Blitz and Guard. I pointed out that for as nice as guard was for +1 AC, due to our team battle strategy most of the other cool abilities didn't apply. I then pointed out Bombadier worked really well with his build if he ever got locked down, giving Str to ranged damage and giving him free grenades that could be used for sticky bombs. In the long run more useful than a little bonus speed to lock down opponents with free consumables.) so I probably represent a minority of people who can make anything work.
I would probably build the character I mentioned with 15 Str, 14 Dex, 10 Con, 10 Int, 10 Wis, 14 Cha. Probably boosting Str-Dex-Int-Cha for levels 5 and 10, putting my personal upgrades in +2 Str, +4 Dex to get more of my light armor (level 10 array 20, 22, 10, 14, 10, 18).I am actually curious to see the whole build. You mind building that level 1 and 5(or10) and posting it? Also curious to see what your back story was going to be since you are thinking about it.
Sure, I'll do my best. Honestly the character concept is half mix between the character I'm currently playing (the Envoy), the character she was based off of which was a Scion character (but I'll get more into that later), and a few tricks from a Drow Vigilante I played in Pathfinder.
Scion, is a game where you play as the children of gods in a modern setting (White Wolf d10 system, lots of fun, emphasis on role playing and being over the top with your action). My character there was a Scion of Amaterasu, Japanese goddess of the sun. I made her a punk star and her godly powers came from the Sun purview and the Moon purview, so lots of fire and gravity. Perfect to be a Solarian (as an Envoy I've focused more on her being a punk rocker, going very Icon with it).
To start, Human is easy for the character, but really any race can be selected if you wanted particular racial modifiers. Human will help a little with the skill points problem, and that bonus feat (though both these things are available on other races in the Alien Archive, so there's definitely a good range of options). A race with a hit to Wis could also boost one of your 14s to a 16 if you get two of either Str, Dex, or Cha bonus. If not, aim for bonuses to any of those and just spend some of your points filling your penalized stat, you'll wind up about the same.
Them, I really like Icon for the character concept (it is the same from my current character after all). The +1 Cha plays in well and 10% off gear at 12 is always nice. Culture and Profession skill bonuses though aren't favorable with so few skill points. The Corporate Agent on the other hand for a Diplomacy boost, and later an Intimidate buff would be a prime choice. Space Pirate for the +1 Dex and the later Sword and Pistol could also be good-ish, for the 2 attacks on standard with a melee and small arm, especially with using move actons on this build to Stagger. Notable mentions go to Death-Touched and Dragonblood for enhanced resistances, but their skill bonuses aren't as worth it. I'm going with the Corporate Agent on this one just to solidify the character's captain role with more Diplomacy, and give more use for Intimidate later, both of which are Photon Sidereal skills we will be taking.
So level 1, we're 15, 14, 10, 10, 10, 14. That's a +2 to Str, Dex, and Cha, giving 2 resolve and respectable boosts. Between an optimized Soldier and a focused Envoy or Technomancer for sure in the melee presence department. Solid above average. For my Skill Adept, I'm gonna go with Culture and Computers. Culture because it's nice to have since we'll have boosts, and it's my third Photon skill pick. Computers because in starship combat, since we have Intimidate and Diplomacy already for captain actions, and full BAB for gunnery, our best options if the captain isn't needed are engineering and science officer. And only Science Officers have consistent multiple people actions. We've got 5 skill points which will go to Diplomacy, Intimidate, Acrobatics, Sense Motive, and Stealth due to the Graviton-focused build. On a non-skill point race I'd probably begrudgingly cut Acrobatics because we'll ignore falling entirely in Graviton mode soon enough. Manifestation, both are good options, but thinking deeper on it I think we're gonna take Solar Armor for the fire resist, cause lazers are common and it'll work really well. And +1 AC supplements the +2 Dex a bit to be on par with your average 16 Dex Mechanic or Operative (like the ones in my party :P). Without any more class choices, our last thing is our feats. Weapon Focus: Advanced Melee, again to supplement starting at +2 on Str. Second, I like the idea of Skill Focus: Intimidate, since with our later Sidereal we'll hive a nice demanding Intimidate for Starship combat. Of relevant equipment we'll get Second Skin armor and a Longsword. I wanna use a Plasma Sword for that Severe Wound crit, but level doesn't allow for it, really though weapon is flavor of the player, so it doesn't super matter. The level 1 character now looks as follows.
Human Solarian 1
HP 11, SP 7, RP 2
Str 15, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 10, Wis, 10, Cha 14
KAC 15 EAC 14
Fort 2
Ref 2
Will 2
Diplomacy +7
Intimidate +9
Acrobatics +6
Sense Motive +4
Stealth +6
Longsword +4 1d8+2
Level 5, important to know our choices moving up. My first revelation, I really wanted Dark Matter. Like, SUPER wanted. However, if I'm going to take Enhanced Resistance for DR at the earliest opportunity, then it makes it redundant (however, if you wanted to start weapon, you could enhanced resistance for fire instead to make up for what you're losing from solar armor and still take dark matter for nice 1/2 level DR). Instead, I want Gravity Hold. Psychokinetic Hand is a hugely underrated ability, adding the ability to immobilize medium creatures while in Graviton mode and manhandle them? This is where my Drow inspiration pops in from before we realized Levitate needed a willing target. Picking people up and just dropping them for the fall damage, which leaves them prone, and controlling their movement is a massive tool at early levels. The limit of course being only once per 24 hours, but being able to hold someone out of a fight, and drop them 25+5ft/2 levels? Yes please. Level three we get Specialization as normal, and our first Sidereal Influence. Since we focused Intimidate, that's our Photon one, and our Graviton one we're going to pick Sense Motive, setting up for a neat little concept later (using Sidereal Stealth + Sense Motive to eavesdrop on conversations and be able to pick out the truth). Our chosen feat for level 3, Close Combat For the +2 AC against non-adjacent foes, or if you didn't get the bonus feat at level 1, Skill Focus: Intimidate, for the stacking with Sidereal and the fact it is the best captain skill. Level 4 our revelation is (the obvious) Stellar Rush. Since most of this Solarian's action economy is sunk into move actions to maintain things later this makes them hugely mobile. I really wanted Flare for more CC (especially that mass dazzle), but since most of our attunement time is is Graviton, we'll rarely get in, making the action economy a better choice. Level 5, we qualify for Enhanced Resistance, getting DR equal to BAB and suddenly we're a hell of a tank. New equipment buys, for sure we're getting Personal Upgrade in Strength for +2 adding to hit and damage, armor we'll go to Lashunta Tempweave, Basic, probably get Jump Jets and Speed Suspension, and keep our Longsword for now, Cryo Pike is nice but swords don't upgrade till post 7, and as I said weapon is flavor choice. With our ability increases going to Str, Dex, Int and Cha, we'll get retroactive skill points which we'll slip into Computers. For simplicity, I'm just going to assume max ranks on all skills, but it's likely Acrobatics, Stealth and Sense Motive would wind up being peppered a little bit for some Culture and other little investments depending on the average DCs I'd be aiming for. Level 5 we look like so.
Human Solarian 5
HP 39, SP 35, RP 5
Str 19, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 12, Wis, 10, Cha 16
KAC 18, EAC 17, DR 5, ER 5 Fire
Fort +4
Ref +4
Will +4
Acrobatics +11
Diplomacy +12
Intimidate +14+(1d6)
Sense Motive +8+(1d6)
Stealth +11
Computers +9
Longsword +10 1d8+9
Admittedly, our saves could use some work due to our investments so far, so we'll probably consider a Ring of Resistance at some point. Or rely on our team for status clear. Moving onto the next stretch though. Level 6 we get access to new revelations. I mentioned Staggering so Crush is the way to go level 6, no contest. We could already immobilize a melee threat before, now we can reduce anyone to one action, remove their AoOs and maintain it with a move action (which is why we wanted Stellar Rush so we can still keep mobile while locking someone down). Level 7 we score Flashing Strikes, which is nice to start full attacking if we find ourselves with no more Graviton mode targets and decide to slip into Photon mode for extra damage in the 5th or 6th round of combat (if combat ever lasts that long. For our feat, I really want Skill Focus: Diplomacy to really solidify our captain role and prepare for our second Sidreal in Diplomacy. However, Antagonize, Bodyguard (to build into In Harm's Way and extend our monstrous DR/ER to our allies), and Deadly Aim are all really good choices. Depending on team comp I may favor one over the other, but for the ideal I wanna get Diplomacy early to increase our Encourage odds in starship combat (and if you were planning to only have diplomacy for the Encourage captain action, with Sidereal of 1d6, a rising Cha that will go to +4, and Skill Focus, we only need to hit 15 consistently, so we can invest only 2-8 skill points and have a 65-100% success rate for Encourage, and free up skill points to put into other skills like Culture for languages and Recall Knowledge checks). At 8 we get another revelation, needing to be Photon and I like Corona best I think. Blazing Orbit was also really tempting with all of our CC, but with all our tanking stats from DR, ER, and higher AC, I want that cold ER and the damage against attackers if I find myself on the defensive, or the odd time I have to slip into Photon. Level 9 we get our Zeniths, and I really fell in love with Time Dilation (though Starquake was equally tempting as a damage bust, Slow was just way more fun). For its probably going to be seldom used partner, I'm going with Solar Acceleration, its opposite and useful for Photon times, however it was the only Zenith that really called to me beyond the original Supernova. For our final feat before the end of this little preview, Deadly Aim is an easy pick to boost up our damage by a good chunk. With that we hit ten and this was the first level where I liked the Photon ability more than the Graviton, so since it doesn't break our balance I want Soul Furnace for the cleanse. Having already dealt with disease in Starfinder, I kniw it /suuucks/, and an ability to get a save to auto-heal it? Yes please thank you. Stat boosts are same as before, Str, Dex, Int, Cha, however if you've peppered your skill points right by either getting the racial bonus, or by measuring your DCs to figure out your targets, you could probably sub the Int for Con. I like skill points a lot though, and our DR makes up for a lot of our lower SP. Speaking of, our new skill will be likely peppered around to fill gaps, but let's say Athletics for simplicity. For equipment, Personal Upgrade for Dex this time, full +4 to rocket out AC and Ref. We're going to stick with the Lashunta Tempweave, Advanced upgrading to Advanced and probably pick up a Force Field, White. Speed Suspension and maybe a +1 Dermal Plating as it's the only stack for DR. And we're finally getting out Plasma Sword. So level 10, we look like this.
Human Solarian 10
HP 74, SP 70, RP 9
Str 20, Dex 22, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 18
KAC 28, EAC 27, DR 10, ER 10 Fire (10 Cold sometimes)
Fort +7
Ref +9
Will +7
Acrobatics +19
Athletics +18
Diplomacy +21
Intimidate +20+(1d6)
Sense Motive +13+(1d6)
Stealth +19
Computers +15
Longsword +16 2d8+15 E&F (I think that means we're hitting against EAC?)
Deadly Aim +14 2d8+20 E&F
Whoo... That took a pinch longer than expected. Probably didn't have to explain my choices as much. :P May have been easier to just list choices with each snippet. Oh well, I wanted to go over some alternate options to say the build has some wiggle room.
Sure, I'll do my best. Honestly the character concept is half mix between the character I'm currently playing (the Envoy), the character she was based off of which was a Scion character (but I'll get more into that later), and a few tricks from a Drow Vigilante I played in Pathfinder.
Its an interesting concept and nice write up on the decision making process. A few more line breaks might help the extra long paragraphs, but overall quite good. And I think it helps show case how different Str 14/Dex 14/Cha 14 -ish character can be.
I've got a write up of what I call a "Versatile" Solarian, which tries to have a spread of capabilities. The link to the guide is in this thread, along with a couple other ideas for Solarian builds. It includes sample stat blocks at 6th and 12th level for them. Rather than tanking and CC, its focused more on moving around (and a little bit of slowing the enemy down), and eventually helping the entire team move around with Wormholes (and/or Black Hole). Admittedly, I wrote it up before Pact Worlds and Alien Archive came out, so its slightly dated.
Attacks with the Plasma sword do roll against EAC. I'll also note, statistically speaking, deadly aim is generally only worth it in cases of large DR/energy resistance or very, very easy to hit enemies.
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Just a quick correction : Sidereal Influence is, in fact, an insight bonus.
No stacking with skill feats here.
When attempting a skill check with one of your selected skills of the chosen type (either graviton or photon), you can roll 1d6 and add the result as an insight bonus to your check.
You can't really judge things based on the forums here. By that same logic, people complain the Operative is overpowered (something I was guilty of), the Envoy lacks impact, and starship combat sucks. People very rarely come to the forums to praise design, and most of the above things I've mentioned require a bit of play to see them as wrong.
Its hard to make a good point that something as subjective as starship combat "sucks" is wrong. Its even harder to base a good argument off of that statement.
Starship combat has a LOT of problems. The pilot has a flying mini game. The rest of the crew have a static roll a die and see what happens and no real options (yes, there are additional options at level 6. You always take them. Thats why they're not an option) Your entire strategic decision is roll the d 20 good. The science officer's influence on combat is meh. The captains is limited to aid another. I've had captains roll 5 times to aid the gunner and then wander off for coffee. I play with a lot of different people and starship combat gets a *groan.. skip it* out of a fair number of them.
The operative is really. really good in starfinder society, with its emphasis on filing a wide variety of roles and large number of skill checks compared to most campaigns. They don't suffer a lot of combat effectiveness for their ability to do that. Their bonus to every skill making them as good if not better at those skills than what other characters specialize in (mystic, mechanic, technomancer) seems a little overdone.
Envoys are okay. Their buffs absolutely do not have the same impact as a bard, so people that try to play them that way are going to be disapointed with their contribution. Pick up a big unweildy weapon and know when to shoot yourself and when to help someone else and they're pretty good though. They're not limited to face skills either: computers and engineering aren't just on their class list you can walk into the d6 with them
So the problem is not that you have a lot of play experience and people that disagree with you don't.
Just a quick correction : Sidereal Influence is, in fact, an insight bonus.
No stacking with skill feats here.
When attempting a skill check with one of your selected skills of the chosen type (either graviton or photon), you can roll 1d6 and add the result as an insight bonus to your check.
I knew both are insight bonuses, I was almost 100% sure I read somewhere that Sidereal Influence stacked with the bonus provided by Skill Focus explicitly. Looking for it however, I can't find it, and now it's bothering me because I can't remember where I read it.
Its an interesting concept and nice write up on the decision making process. A few more line breaks might help the extra long paragraphs, but overall quite good. And I think it helps show case how different Str 14/Dex 14/Cha 14 -ish character can be.
Thank you, and yeah. Normally as a writer I take more time to plan out my formatting, but I was hot, sweaty, and had been going for like an hour tryingvto get it all out. I was just happy to get it out, and surprised the quoted text was deleted.
And yeah, after I finished with Deadly Aim I realized I liked the Antagonize + Corona combination much better than +1/2 level to damage.
Its hard to make a good point that something as subjective as starship combat "sucks" is wrong. Its even harder to base a good argument off of that statement.
...
So the problem is not that you have a lot of play experience and people that disagree with you don't.
Forgive me, I was being broad, and comparatively I was in the boat of an overpowered Operative last week because in play, they were better at most things than our entire party. In particular, our Ysoki Hacker Operative made our Ace Pilot Exocortex Mechanic redundant. Largely it was brought to my attention that without realizing it the two of them had made characters for the same role, and the Mechanic eventually would gain function that would help them shine at 5, and help level the skill difference by 7.
Context is everything.
Comparatively, while your description of starship combat is correct, starship combat is one of my team's favorite parts. Perhaps because I'm captain and we really wind up role playing it out on one hand, and on the other we generally discuss what we should do as we go. I advise the pilot which arcs of the ships we want facing the enemy, our engineer keeps things together or diverts to our advantage, science officer scans so we can more tactically position, then decides what system to taget on the enemy to dibilitate them, and our two gunners clean up. We view ourselves as one player, rather than 6 players doing single actions. If things don't go according to plan we look at each other with a "what now?" One starship combat will normally be the full 3 hours of our weekly session that week, but we don't regret it one bit. We leave with smiles.
You last sentence I'm not sure what you're trying to say though. I have an idea, that you're saying I have a lot of experience and those who disagree with me don't (something again, I was on the opposite end of with Operatives last week) or... I'm sorry, I'm not sure.
arguments that the Solarian has a 'feat tax' mainly make me think that this board is still suffering from way too much One True Way-ism.
This comment makes me think you skimmed this thread and aren’t really reading what people have written. People aren’t complaining about a “One True Way”. They are saying with a lack of skill points and how MAD the class is you have a feat tax because you have to buy certain feats.
If you want to be a melee fighter but want skills you are sacrificing Dex probably. Meaning you want to buy heavy pro.
If you want to be ranged solar armor you are going to buy long arm pro which costs 2 feats basically.
People also believe dipping in soldier is a good idea while others don’t.
Some want to change the mechanics while others don’t. Some even think the mechanics are just dumb.
I can understand countering points with discussion, but your comment doesn’t read that way. I mean are you playing a Solarian? Or are you a GM with ideas on how a Solarian should play or ways one can be good? Are we missing something?
While I am sympathetic to the idea that the Solarian should have 6 skill points rather than 4, arguments that the Solarian has a 'feat tax' mainly make me think that this board is still suffering from way too much One True Way-ism.
Most solarions are weapon solarions. That means they are in melee. Given the serious hit that starfinder NPCs are packing that means either heavy armor, a high dex (which their mad nature simply doesn't allow) or a healing serum keg stand after most fights. It does not reduce role play to recognize the reality of the mechanics and their impact on your character (in this case, said impact turning them into red paste).
Nor is it fair to complain about one wayism and then say that DM's are doing it wrong
While I am sympathetic to the idea that the Solarian should have 6 skill points rather than 4, arguments that the Solarian has a 'feat tax' mainly make me think that this board is still suffering from way too much One True Way-ism.Most solarions are weapon solarions. That means they are in melee. Given the serious hit that starfinder NPCs are packing that means either heavy armor, a high dex (which their mad nature simply doesn't allow) or a healing serum keg stand after most fights. It does not reduce role play to recognize the reality of the mechanics and their impact on your character (in this case, said impact turning them into red paste).
Nor is it fair to complain about one wayism and then say that DM's are doing it wrong
This is overlooking the fact that Solarians actually have a lot of tools to right these supposed problems. Photon-focused have such high mobility that they should rarely be in harm's way. I proved above a Graviton Solarian can have so much DR and ER that they really don't need Con investment. And again with how ability score progression works with personal upgrades it's not that hard to support a MAD character.
That said, I can see where people are coming from, and the answer is level 1. Before their first real revelation at level 2 it's hard to see the Solarian's worth, since they don't have that mobility or DR yet. It is easier to choose spending a feat on heavy armor than choosing to invest in Str, Dex, Cha every boost, leaving you with the tough choice of Con for SP to give yourself more tank, or Int for skill points to be more relevant in that field. However, the Solarian does its best to mitigate the need for Con with having the largest SP/HP pool along with the Soldier, and similar to the Soldier having just enough skills to get by picking one major role.
Whilst I don't have a solution for ranged Solarians (as an Envoy, I have come to accept that small arms suck, and am using a melee weapon instead. Being able to add Str to damage in addition to getting full level for specialization? Too good if you're aiming for damage), there are plenty of ways to build a melee Solarian, and whikst compared to say, an Operative, they have a rough startup, most if not all of their issues are pretty much negated by level 5.
Complaining about them needing heavy armor for melee, or longarms for dex builds, is equivalent to complaining that they aren't the Soldier. Yes, they aren't the Soldier, but they still have a kit that supports what they are, and what they do good. Something that the framework of the game supports.
This is overlooking the fact that Solarians actually have a lot of tools to right these supposed problems. Photon-focused have such high mobility that they should rarely be in harm's way.
What is there in the Solarions tool kit that lets them move in and move out on the same round without standing there as a glass cannon begging to be full attacked? Or sucking up the AOO for moving in and out?
I proved above a Graviton Solarian can have so much DR and ER that they really don't need Con investment.
That is a very heavy claim and you haven't come anywhere close to meeting it.
That said, I can see where people are coming from, and the answer is level 1.
Again. It is not.
Whilst I don't have a solution for ranged Solarians (as an Envoy, I have come to accept that small arms suck, and am using a melee weapon...
I dipped soldier on my envoy to use a crossbolter and a +2 to shoot between vesk legs. (regretting the crossbotler because i didn't see that get em needed to be maintained, but at level 5 that won't be a problem anymore when she can pick up the multi round version)
This is overlooking the fact that Solarians actually have a lot of tools to right these supposed problems. Photon-focused have such high mobility that they should rarely be in harm's way.What is there in the Solarions tool kit that lets them move in and move out on the same round without standing there as a glass cannon begging to be full attacked? Or sucking up the AOO for moving in and out?
I proved above a Graviton Solarian can have so much DR and ER that they really don't need Con investment.That is a very heavy claim and you haven't come anywhere close to meeting it.
Going to have to agree. You can’t really prove anything without rolling a single die. You put together a build. That doesn’t really prove much. It’s all theory.
What is there in the Solarions tool kit that lets them move in and move out on the same round without standing there as a glass cannon begging to be full attacked? Or sucking up the AOO for moving in and out?
Not every fight or enemy lends itself to this, but a reach weapon plus Stellar Rush lets you standard action charge, hit from 10 feet away, then move back. As a Solar Armor Solarion in light armor, I've done this with a 40 foot move speed at level 2. At level 3 I added a climb speed with climbing suckers, giving me a vertical move option. I'm willing to bet Blazing Orbit would also disuade NPCs from charging after you move away at level 6.
At 9th Wormholes lets you Stellar rush through, then guarded step away. Or invest in spring attack with Wormholes also works.
At really high level, Gravity Shield negates AoOs since it provides cover, allowing things like stellar rush in then Defy Gravity away with 30 extra feet of movement (Graviton mode plus Ultimate Graviton).
Those are a few possibilities anyways.
What is there in the Solarions tool kit that lets them move in and move out on the same round without standing there as a glass cannon begging to be full attacked? Or sucking up the AOO for moving in and out?Not every fight or enemy lends itself to this, but a reach weapon plus Stellar Rush lets you standard action charge, hit from 10 feet away, then move back.
How?
Stellar Rush (Su) [Photon mode]
As a standard action, you can wreathe yourself in stellar fire and make a charge without the penalties.
When you are attuned or fully attuned, you can substitute a bull rush for the melee attack at the end of the charge. Whether or not you succeed at the bull rush, the target takes 2d6 fire damage (Reflex half). This damage increases by 1d6 at 6th level and every 2 levels thereafter.
The square you have to go to and the fact that you stop is not "the penalties" its part of the charge rules. Unless you're combining it with something else i don't get how you're spring attacking with it.
At 9th Wormholes lets you Stellar rush through, then guarded step away. Or invest in spring attack with Wormholes also works.
Wormholes (Su) [Graviton mode]
When you’re fully graviton-attuned,
Thats near the end of the fight, if it happens at all. Whats your plan until then?
|
What is there in the Solarions tool kit that lets them move in and move out on the same round without standing there as a glass cannon begging to be full attacked? Or sucking up the AOO for moving in and out?Not every fight or enemy lends itself to this, but a reach weapon plus Stellar Rush lets you standard action charge, hit from 10 feet away, then move back.How?
Stellar Rush (Su) [Photon mode]
As a standard action, you can wreathe yourself in stellar fire and make a charge without the penalties.
When you are attuned or fully attuned, you can substitute a bull rush for the melee attack at the end of the charge. Whether or not you succeed at the bull rush, the target takes 2d6 fire damage (Reflex half). This damage increases by 1d6 at 6th level and every 2 levels thereafter.
The square you have to go to and the fact that you stop is not "the penalties" its part of the charge rules. Unless you're combining it with something else i don't get how you're spring attacking with it.
You're missing the "As a standard action" part. As in, you're left with a move action remaining you can use to move away.
Huh. Well... it's silliness.Dipping blitz soldier lets a solarion use strength for resolve and gives them a much needed 10 feet of movement.Yes, it's still floating around.
Silliness? I built one just for comparisons sake to compare my new 3rd level soldier build that I did to replace my 3rd Solarion (that is I replaced my Solarion with a Solider, but recently just built a 1st level soldier 2nd level Solarion for comparison purposes).
The Solarion/Soldier hyrbid was much better off than the straight Solarion and was on par with the straight Solider at level 3. But it does have some problems, like weapon specialization at level 3.
For comparison's sake:
Prydux
Male dragonkin gladiator soldier 3 Alien Archive 41
N Large dragon
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +0
--------------------
Defense SP 21 HP 27 RP 4
--------------------
EAC 20; KAC 22
Fort +3; Ref +3; Will +3; +2 vs. effects that cause paralysis
Immunities sleep
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 35 ft., fly 25 ft. (Ex, average)
Melee ember flame doshko +7 (1d8+7 F; critical wound [DC 14]; powered) or
tactical starknife +7 (1d4+7 P; analog, thrown [20 ft.])
Ranged smoke grenade +6 (explode [20 ft., smoke cloud 1 minute, DC 15]) or
smoke grenade +6 (explode [20 ft., smoke cloud 1 minute, DC 15])
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Offensive Abilities primary fighting style (blitz), breath weapon (30-ft. cone, 1d6+4 F, Reflex DC 11 half), melee striker, rapid response
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 16 (+3); Dex 14 (+2); Con 11 (+0); Int 12 (+1); Wis 10 (+0); Cha 10 (+0)
Skills Acrobatics +6, Athletics +7, Computers +7 (3 ranks), Culture +7, Engineering +10 (3 ranks), Intimidate +1; (reduce the DC of Culture checks by 5 when recalling information about entertainment combat, fighting styles, and gladiatorial traditions)
Feats Skill Focus (engineering), Skill Synergy (computers, culture), Weapon Focus (advanced melee weapons)
Languages Castrovelian, Common, Draconic, Drow, Infernal, Starsong, Triaxian
Other Abilities draconic immunities, partner bond
Combat Gear smoke grenade, smoke grenade; Other Gear lashunta ringwear II, ember flame doshko with 1 battery (20 charges), smoke grenade, smoke grenade, tactical starknife, batteriess (2), engineering tool kit, personal comm unit, credstick (23 credits)
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Partner Bond (Ex) (Ex) A dragonkin can form a permanent bond with one willing non-dragonkin creature. Once this bond is made, a dragonkin cannot form another partner bond unless its current partner dies. A dragonkin and its partner can communicate with each other as if they both had telepathy with a range of 100 feet. In combat, when a dragonkin is within 30 feet of its partner, both creatures roll initiative checks separately and treat the higher result as the result for both of them.
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at https://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.
Soldarion
Male dragonkin mercenary solarian 2/soldier 1 Alien Archive 41
N Large dragon
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +0
--------------------
Defense SP 21 HP 27 RP 4
--------------------
EAC 20; KAC 22
Fort +5; Ref +2; Will +5; +2 vs. effects that cause paralysis
Immunities sleep
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 35 ft., fly 25 ft. (Ex, average)
Melee solar weapon +6 (1d6+8 F)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Offensive Abilities black hole, primary fighting style (blitz), breath weapon (30-ft. cone, 1d6+4 F, Reflex DC 11 half), plasma sheath, rapid response, solar manifestation (solar weapon), supernova
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 16 (+3); Dex 14 (+2); Con 11 (+0); Int 12 (+1); Wis 10 (+0); Cha 10 (+0)
Skills Acrobatics +6, Athletics +8, Computers +7 (3 ranks), Culture +7, Engineering +10 (3 ranks); (reduce the DCs of Culture and Profession [mercenary] checks by 5 when recalling knowledge about military procedures and personnel)
Feats Skill Focus (engineering), Weapon Specialization (advanced melee weapons)
Languages Common, Draconic, Starsong, Triaxian
Other Abilities draconic immunities, partner bond, stellar mode
Other Gear lashunta ringwear II, engineering tool kit, personal comm unit, toolkit (hacking), credstick (983 credits)
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Partner Bond (Ex) (Ex) A dragonkin can form a permanent bond with one willing non-dragonkin creature. Once this bond is made, a dragonkin cannot form another partner bond unless its current partner dies. A dragonkin and its partner can communicate with each other as if they both had telepathy with a range of 100 feet. In combat, when a dragonkin is within 30 feet of its partner, both creatures roll initiative checks separately and treat the higher result as the result for both of them.
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at https://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.
I proved above a Graviton Solarian can have so much DR and ER that they really don't need Con investment.That is a very heavy claim and you haven't come anywhere close to meeting it.Going to have to agree. You can’t really prove anything without rolling a single die. You put together a build. That doesn’t really prove much. It’s all theory.
That is a dangerous assumption to make. You're talking to someone who bikt a villain NPC for my GM in a Pathfinder game, then proceeded to spend the time to fight them solo with no treasure or EXP for a "what my character did in her downtime". It is also very untrue.
I do have working play experience with an Envoy, and I can compare her performance and rolls to what the Solarian is capable of. I also have the stats of our party's Soldier to compare against, as well as his working play experience. And our Operative's as well (though I wouldn't use him for comparison, I've caught him more than once cheating on rolls), and if I really wanted I could get our Technomancer's.
As a level 2 party, we've fought up to CR 5 (simply due to having 6 players) and I rather fondly recall each of their KACs. Comparing to my Envoy, of Str 11, Dex 12, Con 10, Human. I have yet to be reduced to 0 HP, though that has been largely luck (the CR5 creature had no interest in me though 2 hit most of our party, including the Soldier). Comparatively, I did fully build the Solarian on paper when I finished here. I went with Drow for race because I had some ideas (and it tied closer to the other inspiration) and while that gave me a Con penalty, I got out with Str 14, Dex 14, Con 9, investing into a 12 int for more early skill pints, and making the level 5 and 10 stat increases a pinch smoother.
My Envoy currently only has Dispiriting Taunt (and Universal Expression). Say what you will, I have enjoyed the playstyle so far. In terms of combat effectiveness, whilst I lack the +4 Str of our Vesk Soldier, my attack bonus is on par with our Operative and Mechanic due to per level BAB, and 2-3 points higher than my Envoy's. As all three of us have had very little problem in combat. However, depending on my Revelation I would also have either strong CC, DR, or high mobility, which none of my teammates have giving me a nice niche. As well my damage even without Photon mode would be second highest on the team.
In the AC department, I would be even with our Operative and Mechanic again, lower than the Soldier by a few points, and about 2 or more points higher than everyone else. Considering the hit rates of creatures this means I'd have taken slightly less damage and would have succeeded a Fort save vs Disease that I had failed with my Envoy my 1 point. Hy health and stamina, even at a penalty, would still be second highest to the Vesk (possibly on par with our Mystic?). So defensively still good.
In Starship combat, taking Skill Focus: Intimidate as I did, and points in Diplomacy, I'd be a little less of an Intimidating captain than the Envoy (pretty much impossible to beat an Expertise focused Envoy in what they do), however, the Solarian with her Dex investment and BAB is our best Gunner (or at least tied with the Operative pilot, but piloting bonuses make him much better for that role).
This is pre the DR/ER which will kick in level 5. With full BAB for Enhanced Resistance, Solar Armor giving fire or cold depending on situation, though you could also purchase Thermal Capacitors for Fire and Cold,. I though would prefer Electrostatic Field to add Electric to the list of ERs and make getting hit in melee deal damage back. This leaves the two types of damage that aren't resisted as Acid and Sonic. Since bonus damage for monsters rises similar to Specialization (bonus damage is equal to the creature's CR). This works out you're reducing most attacks by the value of their boosts. Or if you choose Dark Mattr instead of using Enhanced Resistance for DR, then kinetic attacks are reduced by half that much when in Graviton mode.
You could also get Dermal Plating Mk1 just for the +1 DR stack. All and all, reducing many attacks to just raw weapon damage is pretty big. So while you could have say a +1 or +2 con modifier for level×con extra SP, or I'll be generous and say +3 if you invest your ability score increase that way, for +15 extra SP by that point, reducing 5 damage off of most attacks means in 3 rounds of getting hit you've saved enough damage to make it a comparable investment. DR, is more valuable than SP.
So whilst you are correct in that this is presented as theory, there is enough evidence present to support the hypothesis.
You're missing the "As a standard action" part. As in, you're left with a move action remaining you can use to move away.
Ahh there we go. I was missing that.
But that still only works for an armor solarion. For weapon solarions you're going to get thwacked.
Ranged weapon users aren't the problem, you want to be up next to them. (and running away will just let them shoot you twice easier)
]I proved above a Graviton Solarian can have so much DR and ER that they really don't need Con investment
Your play experience is your play experience. It does not prove other people wrong.
Your play experience is your play experience. It does not prove other people wrong.I proved above a Graviton Solarian can have so much DR and ER that they really don't need Con investment
True, but that statement works both ways. Claxon had a poor play experience with his Solarian, our team's Mechanic had a poor play experience because our Operative was a hacker that made his skills role redundant.
My aim was not to disprove anyone in particular, but to disconnect the Solarian from these ideas.
"-You shouldn't have to dip into blitz soldier to make the character functional.
-You shouldn't have a penalty for disproportionate revelations if the powers on grav aren't that great. You shouldn't have to wait for "Future Releases"
-There shouldn't be a "feat tax".
-You shouldn't ignore half of a class concept because it's not as great as having a +1 to damage rolls."
Because I agree, no class should have any of those.
The Solarian is MAD, and as I mentioned my first post, that's a bit of a deterrent for most. It could use more skill points, especially with getting Skill Adept at level 1 "have extra class skills but no points to put in them". However, if you look past that, the Solarian is a perfectly fine class without much need for a fix or patch.
Looking forward to new books and options though. For all classes, not just the Solarian and Envoy.
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You're missing the "As a standard action" part. As in, you're left with a move action remaining you can use to move away.
Ahh there we go. I was missing that.
But that still only works for an armor solarion. For weapon solarions you're going to get thwacked.
Ranged weapon users aren't the problem, you want to be up next to them. (and running away will just let them shoot you twice easier)
Quite true. Certainly with my character I tend to stay threatening ranged attackers, especially with the Coordinate Shot feat and a reach weapon.
If you're just trying to prevent melee full attacks (as opposed to attacks completely), a simple guarded step away after the charge will prevent those for a Solar Weapon Solarian, or at least for the same enemies a reach Solar Armor Solarian can full move away from without issue.
Note an Envoy with Clever Attack, a 4th level or higher Operative, a Soldier with Sonic Resonance, a Mystic or Technomancer with Slow, or anyone with Greater Feint can also generally make the enemy flat footed or staggered and thus unable to take AoOs, allowing a Solar Weapon Solarian to pull this off. Not to mention helping the rest of the team hit or reduce incoming damage.
Alternatively, if you're a glass cannon, have another melee on the team to spread damage to? If your team is relying only on one character to keep enemies over there, away from them, then its probably worth it investing in defensive feats like Heavy Armor proficiency. I can't think of another feat that consistently improves your AC by 1 or 2 points against all attacks.
I do agree with the statement that Heavy Armor proficiency is probably the best for a Solar Weapon Solarian where they are expected to take most of the hits for the team. You want to pile on defensive abilities in that case, as its very efficient from a team effectiveness standpoint. As well as maybe pooling credits to buy the tank character (whether Soldier, Solarian,melee Operative or whatever) up to date armor every level, and they pass their older armor to another team member.
Whether a feat being the best choice versus it being a feat tax is a different question I think, which depends on a lot on what level of difficulty the opposition presents, as well as the relative power when compared to other classes.
I mean, Envoys, Mechanics, Mystics, and Technomancers can all benefit from Heavy armor proficiency if they are the designated tank (for example in a team without melee). Where as in a team with all melee characters, you might get away with none of them having heavy armor. Mostly because you drop the enemies in 75% the time of a ranged team and the damage its easier to spread damage over all members.
Wormholes (Su) [Graviton mode]
When you’re fully graviton-attuned,
Thats near the end of the fight, if it happens at all. Whats your plan until then?
Given you're attuned at the start of turn 3, if that doesn't happen at all, then you've won the fight in 2 turns (which I admit does happen a lot in SFS, at least for our group-I even remember winning one fight in the first round), and likely not taken much damage as you've just walked over the opposition. At least thats my experience.
The situations that Wormhole tactic is useful when you're in an epic fight thats dragging on, taken damage already, and want to minimize further damage. If NPCs are readying an action to hit the Solarian when they spring attack through a worm hole, the Solarian can simply not come through if he or his allies sees the enemy not doing anything immediately. Effectively turning the Solarian into crowd control as your ranged allies continue to pelt the enemy and as the Solarian charges up to Supernova or other Photon Zenith.
If the enemy takes the more prudent choice to attack the ranged allies, then the Solarian knows he can go in safely.
I will note, statistically, if the Solar Weapon Solarian in light armor glass cannon is going down in 2 turns, a heavy armor Soldier with 1-3 more AC is going down in 3 turns or less.
If its 50/50 odds to hit on the soldier, the Solarian would then typically 55/45 to 65/35 odd, which is at most 30% more damage (if the enemy is more accurate, this reduces the ratio to less than 30% making the statement even more true). 3 turns / 1.3 damage reduction = 2.3 effective turns of Solarian damage. Given Solarian and Soldier hit points tend to be close, that Soldier will statistically go down.
At which point the issue is more a tactical issue with a lone melee without support getting focused down in 2-3 turns than a specifically Solarian problem.
If people want to present a specific scenerio, and discuss how to approach them tactically with a variety of builds, we could do so. They can also present how they would approach them with other builds.
Actually, a "combat puzzle" thread might be interesting to a least some members of the forum. And provide people with crazy off the wall ideas that just might work. :)
My aim was not to disprove anyone in particular, but to disconnect the Solarian from these ideas.
"-You shouldn't have to dip into blitz soldier to make the character functional.
-You shouldn't have a penalty for disproportionate revelations if the powers on grav aren't that great. You shouldn't have to wait for "Future Releases"
-There shouldn't be a "feat tax".
-You shouldn't ignore half of a class concept because it's not as great as having a +1 to damage rolls."
Because I agree, no class should have any of those.The Solarian is MAD, and as I mentioned my first post, that's a bit of a deterrent for most. It could use more skill points, especially with getting Skill Adept at level 1 "have extra class skills but no points to put in them". However, if you look past that, the Solarian is a perfectly fine class without much need for a fix or patch.
Looking forward to new books and options though. For all classes, not just the Solarian and Envoy.
Not sure if you're saying that you agree or disagree with the things you listed in the beginning, but I feel pretty strongly that all of the things are true.
Ultimately though, the only two possible corrections that I feel Solarions should get are:
1) The choice between charisma or str for resolve
2) 1 extra skill point per level, which would give them just a bit more leeway in selecting their skills and allowing you to dedicate 1 skill point to a starship combat role. Not matter how I cut it, 4 just didn't feel like enough.
Now this is really an either or situation in my opinion, as allowing the choice to be based on strength allows one to not raise charisma (don't choose revelations with save DCs) and instead place some points into int. Alternatively just giving an extra skill point has the same basic effect.
That's really my only complaint. Solarions are perfectly fine at their combat role as melee combatants. But their MAD nature makes them hard to keep up in the skills department, you just feel too starved and don't have a good role for Starship combat (especially if you have an Envoy in the same party). And really the problem with Skills that I have is due to Starship combat.
Not sure if you're saying that you agree or disagree with the things you listed in the beginning, but I feel pretty strongly that all of the things are true.
My aim was not to disprove anyone in particular, but to disconnect the Solarian from these ideas.
"-You shouldn't have to dip into blitz soldier to make the character functional.
-You shouldn't have a penalty for disproportionate revelations if the powers on grav aren't that great. You shouldn't have to wait for "Future Releases"
-There shouldn't be a "feat tax".
-You shouldn't ignore half of a class concept because it's not as great as having a +1 to damage rolls."
Because I agree, no class should have any of those.The Solarian is MAD, and as I mentioned my first post, that's a bit of a deterrent for most. It could use more skill points, especially with getting Skill Adept at level 1 "have extra class skills but no points to put in them". However, if you look past that, the Solarian is a perfectly fine class without much need for a fix or patch.
Looking forward to new books and options though. For all classes, not just the Solarian and Envoy.
The list was pulled from an earlier post in the thread. To clarify, I agree with the statements. You shouldn't need to do X for a class for it to work. My goal was to prove that the Solarian doesn't need any of those things, and while I will not change the minds of thise who feel the class doesn't meet their expectations, I feel I proved that.
Ultimately though, the only two possible corrections that I feel Solarions should get are:
1) The choice between charisma or str for resolve
2) 1 extra skill point per level, which would give them just a bit more leeway in selecting their skills and allowing you to dedicate 1 skill point to a starship combat role. Not matter how I cut it, 4 just didn't feel like enough.Now this is really an either or situation in my opinion, as allowing the choice to be based on strength allows one to not raise charisma (don't choose revelations with save DCs) and instead place some points into int. Alternatively just giving an extra skill point has the same basic effect.
That's really my only complaint. Solarions are perfectly fine at their combat role as melee combatants. But their MAD nature makes them hard to keep up in the skills department, you just feel too starved and don't have a good role for Starship combat (especially if you have an Envoy in the same party). And really the problem with Skills that I have is due to Starship combat.
However, you are right. That is my one outstanding issue with the class is skill points. Again, it gives you two free class skills of your choice to build however you want, and then no points to put in them. And then over the course of your career you'll get 3 Photon Sidereal skills and 3 Graviton, and not even enough points to invest in all 6 of them.
On the Technomancer and Mechanic, 4+Int works because of their key ability. Soldiers are also a bit shafted with 4, but they don't feel it as much when all of their class abilities push for combat not skills (as well with all their combat feats, they can diversify in the feats department so it hurts less).
Skills is a place where they fall drastically behind, and I would love to see them at the same tier as Mystics with 6+int. If the Operative can have 8+Int+2, on a class with playstyles that support Int, the Solarian could get a little more.
Especially when you look at Starship roles, you're right. Without Int they can't really invest heavily as a science officer or engineer. That leaves Gunner, Captain, and Pilot. Gunner is easy with full BAB, you just need Dex investment, though that's pretty much the Soldier's only role (they have the same kind of problem). Piloting isn't on their skill list, so you can use the adept on it, but unless you're going to be the pilot since you've got that BAB it's not the double skill it is for everyone else. It also doesn't get any sort of boosts from your sidereals, so your best option would be Skill Focus with it, and any Operative will do better (or that one Star Mystic that gets Piloting as their domain skill thing).
The final role gets its own paragraph. Captain. Their Charisma push seems to make this a choice fit, but... They just don't have enough skill points because of Orders. If they're going to be captain they need to invest in both Intimidate and Diplomacy (or Bluff, but Bluff is only for taunting, and since you can use Intimidate for that anyway, and it doubles for Demand...) so that's half your skill points, gone, and you can't really half invest unless you only want to Encourage because Rousing Speech is a thing. Then the cherry like I said: Orders. The captain option that says "you need to be good at all the other roles", since the DCs are all as high as each role's max to give them the extra action.
Now, technically since most of the other roles can have multiple people in the role at a time, it has been pointed out just getting on a gun yourself or doing the engineering action yourself is a better option. The exception to this is Piloting, which again, there's not a lot of support for Solarians to invest in it. So Photon Sidereal has Intimidate and Diplomacy which pushes Solarians towards a captain role, with secondary option being gunner if you have either an Envoy or Operative in the crew, however they just lack the skill points to invest into the highest investment role.
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Solarion bonus class skills should have come with max ranks, just like the operative.
Solarion bonus class skills should have come with max ranks, just like the operative.
... I accidentally hit reply instead of favorite, but yes. That would fix pretty much all of my Solarian issues.
Solarion bonus class skills should have come with max ranks, just like the operative.... I accidentally hit reply instead of favorite, but yes. That would fix pretty much all of my Solarian issues.
That would definitely fix the problem, though I question whether or not it would be too much of a correction.
But doing something to allow more skill points is the answer.
You can check the Warhorn details for yourself HERE
Thanks for the link and the idea to data mine warhorn. I tried to grab data for all the classes. Given the event has not happened yet, I'm sure people are adding or removing themselves or changing in response to other signups they see. Anyways, this is what I saw when I went through.
Listed in chronological order
Envoy 4 2 1 2 0 0 7 0 0 0 0 = 16
Mechanic 0 3 2 1 1 3 5 0 0 1 0 = 16
Mystic 1 2 3 1 1 3 4 0 0 2 0 = 17
Operative 3 2 2 3 4 4 9 3 1 1 1 = 32
Solarian 2 2 3 0 2 0 3 0 1 2 1 = 16
Soldier 4 1 2 2 2 5 12 2 1 0 2 = 33
Technomancer 1 2 1 0 2 2 4 1 2 0 2 = 17
Unknown 1 0 2 1 0 2 3 0 0 2 0 = 11
Total 158
I find it very interesting the Solarians are basically neck and neck with everyone except Operatives and Soldiers, which are represented twice as much as everyone else. About 20% for Operatives and Soldiers each, and 10% for everyone else.
Not really sure what to take away from it. Do people think those two classes are the best? Are they the easiest to understand? A lot of people want to play James Bond in space or a Space Marine? Its hard to interpret the data without a questionnaire or something.
If you're just trying to prevent melee full attacks (as opposed to attacks completely), a simple guarded step away after the charge will prevent those for a Solar Weapon Solarian, or at least for the same enemies a reach Solar Armor Solarian can full move away from without issue.
Ideally what you want to to is run in stand next to them while being in between them and the party and get your full attacks on. Solarions want to do that with their laser sword.
Heavy armor helps you do that. Playing portal on round 3 doesn't help you because the run in was on round 1.
Envoy 4 2 1 2 0 0 7 0 0 0 0 = 16
Mechanic 0 3 2 1 1 3 5 0 0 1 0 = 16
Mystic 1 2 3 1 1 3 4 0 0 2 0 = 17
Operative 3 2 2 3 4 4 9 3 1 1 1 = 32
Solarian 2 2 3 0 2 0 3 0 1 2 1 = 16
Soldier 4 1 2 2 2 5 12 2 1 0 2 = 33
Technomancer 1 2 1 0 2 2 4 1 2 0 2 = 17
Unknown 1 0 2 1 0 2 3 0 0 2 0 = 11
Total 158
I'd have betted credits that the soldier would be accompanied by the technomancer at the top 2.
I can't believe it's tied with mystic at third place.
And mechanic would be my bet for last place.
If you're just trying to prevent melee full attacks (as opposed to attacks completely), a simple guarded step away after the charge will prevent those for a Solar Weapon Solarian, or at least for the same enemies a reach Solar Armor Solarian can full move away from without issue.Ideally what you want to to is run in stand next to them while being in between them and the party and get your full attacks on. Solarions want to do that with their laser sword.
Heavy armor helps you do that. Playing portal on round 3 doesn't help you because the run in was on round 1.
I personally think playing portal on round 3 after charging in and taking the damage intended for 6 players instead of intended for 1 for 2 turns is a perfectly reasonable life choice for a character. :)
In any case, at the time I wrote that I thought I was answering the following question:
What is there in the Solarions tool kit that lets them move in and move out on the same round without standing there as a glass cannon begging to be full attacked? Or sucking up the AOO for moving in and out?
Now if you're asking what abilities help the Solarian tank and keep the enemies away from the rest of the team, that is a different question as well as a good question.
And I totally agree that for a Solar Weapon Solarian, if they want to tank, Heavy armor proficiency is probably their best choice of feat.
However, I would like to make a distinction. Just because a character deals their damage in melee, doesn't mean they are the tank for the party. Consider in Pathfinder the Rogue, the Monk, the Barbarian, and the Ranger. All of those core classes had abilities suggesting they should fight in melee, while not having Fighter in full plate plus heavy shield levels of AC.
I will admit, the Rogue and Monk had issues in combat, while the Barbarian worked better. Ranger was typically better of as ranged or switch. But the design concept of a mobile non-tanking melee character was there.
Consider the internal balance between Solar Armor and Solar Weapon. Solar Weapon is the offensive choice, while Solar Armor is the defensive choice. If Solarians get heavy armor proficiency built in, why take Solar Armor when you get the same AC with less Dex investment plus the laser sword?
The lack of heavy armor proficiency emphasizes the developers see the Solarian as more of that mobile melee and crowd control type class rather than a stand there and take it tank type class. You can make them do the stand there and take it, and you can make them do it well enough, but it costs a little in choices. Same way you can make an Envoy an unwieldy advanced melee murder machine, but it costs a bit more in terms of feats.
Now if you want to discuss things which help the Solarian stand there and mitigate damage or have enemies move away (rather than the Solarian move away), there are plenty.
We can talk about crowd control like Gravity Hold (more CC than direct tank), Flare (for Blind), Radiation (sickened is -2 to hit), Blazing Orbit (making enemies not want to move towards allies after you've done that hit and run), and Crush. You might point out its hard to keep the save DC up to meaningful levels, and I'll grant you that. Although it leads to an interesting trade off, more CC in exchange for less damage.
If you don't want to have to max Charisma, then you've got things that punish for trying to hit you like Reflection and Corona, or that heal you like Glow of Life, or that mitigate damage like Dark Matter, or simply give you more AC or Cover while in melee range like Gravity Shield.
Now if you want to talk Zenith powers then you've got Starquake which is a move action to trip a whole bunch of enemies and deal damage, which you can follow up with an attack or even combat maneuver like Disarm with a bonus. You've got Time Dilation, which as we've noted in another thread, whose AoE slow effect is a big hinderance for melee enemies. Both of these are admittedly Charisma based.
Miniature Star slows enemies and makes them really not want to stand around you by dealing a lot of damage, with no save.
Another option if you want to get fancy without charisma, you can use wormholes to play portal with your ranged allies - it doesn't just work for you. You can play melee monster pong or let your party get out of LOS trivially if they need to.
I won't deny Solarians are a complicated class and its possible to make mistakes in building one. I also won't deny that in most typical parties a Solar Weapon Solarian needs Heavy armor, as they are typically assumed to be the tank. I'm personally not convinced the class needs the feat built in, if only because I'm playing a melee Solarian without the feat, but I would tell a home campaign group that is having a poor play experience with the class that they should go ahead and modify it in a way that makes the GM and players happy.
My experience with my Solarion did see me the primary target in every combat, and usually ended with me barely conscious or knocked unconscious due to that.
But it makes sense. My character is the crazy guy trying to bring a laser knife to a laser gun fight.
Now if you're asking what abilities help the Solarian tank and keep the enemies away from the rest of the team, that is a different question as well as a good question.
its the same question. What you answered was that there was an unusual solarion build that could do that, while it really wouldn't work for your standard issue solarion, who doesn't have a reach weapon.
If you're putting together a party and someone plays a melee solarion, someone else probably isn't going to bring a melee soldier unless you have a fairly large party. You are either a meatshield or at the very least a viable option as a meat snack.
Just because a character deals their damage in melee, doesn't mean they are the tank for the party.
If you are a weapon solarion Murphys rule of combat is in full effect: if the enemy is in range then so are you. If you can charge in and walk out (which takes a little help from your friends) they can probably charge you back. If you are standing there to full attack someone, they can full attack you.
Yes, you can leave, but every round you do that makes you less effective.
The wormholes require full atunement. Something i so far haven't seen often enough to count on and aren't guaranteed to be there when you need them.
I think thats whats bothering me about the solarion, its abilities turn on on its time table and that doesn't necessarily match the pace of the fight. He's the only one building up while everyone else is either constant (shoot shoot shoot, shoot the badguy in the face) or open with your nuclear weapon and let your minions sort the rest (casters)
Pathfinder the Rogue, the Monk, the Barbarian, and the Ranger. All of those core classes had abilities suggesting they should fight in melee, while not having Fighter in full plate plus heavy shield levels of AC.
The monk had other ways of gaining AC, and usually its high
The barbarian has a giant hit point reserveThe ranger has medium armor and a good dex
And this was one of the big reasons the rogue struggled as a class until unchained. They theoretically wanted enough dex to be hard to hit but that made their damage output a little lowish to non existant whenever sneak attack shut off.
The game has always had the IDEA of someone mobily slipping in and out of combat but conceptually in a turn based game it doesn't really pan out.
The blitz soldier dip is really. really good and IF people have complaints about the solarion as I do it solves a lot of their problems. It just rankles their sense of game purity. Its not just the solarion: pretty much any class except spell casters benefit a lot from a little dipping. My envoy dipped sharpshooter soldier because pistols are terrible , I'm pondering a dip for my melee operative as well.
(including giving them engineering as a class skill
I don't know if you've seen the saves the NPCs are rocking but they're high enough that on my mystic I'm not even trying: I'm sticking with summoning speed bumps magic missile and removal of starfinders deathspiral conditions. Thats with a SAD class, much less one where you need strength dex con and charisma. Crowd control isn't a fight ender, you can't go oh well and try next round. Above all things it needs reliability.
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I usually tell the solarian to end up behind me, the vesk soldier tank. I can take the hits with bleeding edge heavy armor, DR, and energy resistances.
Honestly giving solarians some sort of early access to Spring Attack or something similar to allow them to end turns behind cover would solve a lot of their mortality issues.