Maze-core sucks!


General Discussion


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Four out of five times I come up with a cool idea for combo'ing tech, maze-core ends up not allowing for it. It's starting to get damned frustrating. Who wrote it up, and why are there so many arbitrary limitations?

Seems to be about the same fail/pass ratio when I look at other roleplayers' ideas too.

Just sayin'.


Yeah... Even the things I did like for Maze Cores, making 2 L items into 1 bulk was silly.

Granted Paizo doubled down on this with Weapon Accessories, making any accessorized weapon of L 2-10 automatically 1 bulk.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

So more than one accessory automatically adds 1 bulk?

*blows an annoyed raspberry*


Ravingdork wrote:

So more than one accessory automatically adds 1 bulk?

*blows an annoyed raspberry*

Oh no no no good sir, it's worse.

"In either case, add the bulk of the weapon accessory to the weapon’s bulk to determine the final accessorized weapon’s bulk. When adding multiple items of light bulk together, treat 2–10 light bulk items as 1 bulk when combined."

So if you put an L accessory on an L small arm, it has bulk 1.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

So if I added 2 "L" and 2 "-" accessories to my 2 bulk sniper rifle, it's effectively 2.2 bulk, 3 bulk, or something else?


Ravingdork wrote:
So if I added 2 "L" and 2 "-" accessories to my 2 bulk sniper rifle, it's effectively 2.2 bulk, 3 bulk, or something else?

As far as I can tell, 3 bulk. This is the only section of rules that treats it this way.

I have read it a few times and can't seem to find a way where it would come out as "if your total bulk is 2-10 Light items, then round up to 1 bulk". So the trickier question for me is what does a 2.1 bulk item come out as? Example that sniper with just one L accessory.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

What's even weirder are those accessories that can be used independently.

My sniper rifle is 3 bulk, because of my laser sight and bipod. However, if I take the bipod off, I now have 2.1 bulk, not 3.

Figure that one out.


I don't mind bumping a weapon up another point of bulk for a bipod and sight though, the benefits are awesome. Set up your accurate fusion, bipod stabilized, scoped sniper rifle and laugh at your zero penalty to hit at a mile range while negating their cover. The players may throw dice at you for this though. Add energetic to the stabilized fusion and an overcharging mechanic becomes an amazing sniper with whatever you put in their hands.


I can only imagine that the increased bulk in such a way isn't due to weight itself, but by the literally bulkiness being added to the weapon by the accessories. While that bipod may not actually weigh enough to increase the weight of it, the added size of it does make it, well, bulkier to carry around.


Azalah wrote:
I can only imagine that the increased bulk in such a way isn't due to weight itself, but by the literally bulkiness being added to the weapon by the accessories. While that bipod may not actually weigh enough to increase the weight of it, the added size of it does make it, well, bulkier to carry around.

That would make a ton of sense except the bipod is retractable and folds for storage, it calls out a move action to deploy it. Plus, holy crap, the guns as illustrated are so bulky already that you couldn't tell if a bipod was there or not anyways.


Torbyne wrote:
Azalah wrote:
I can only imagine that the increased bulk in such a way isn't due to weight itself, but by the literally bulkiness being added to the weapon by the accessories. While that bipod may not actually weigh enough to increase the weight of it, the added size of it does make it, well, bulkier to carry around.
That would make a ton of sense except the bipod is retractable and folds for storage, it calls out a move action to deploy it. Plus, holy crap, the guns as illustrated are so bulky already that you couldn't tell if a bipod was there or not anyways.

I dunno, then. Haven't looked at the rules myself, either. Waiting until the physical copy is out so I can pick it up.

But from the quote that Isaac provided, it seems to be that while adding a Light accessory to a Light gun gives it 1 bulk, it stays at 1 bulk until you add enough accessories to get it to 1.1 bulk. Which at that point, I don't think it's *that* bad, especially for highly-customized weapons.


CRB 167
"Carrying capacity is
based on the bulk of items, which accounts for both their weight
and their unwieldiness.
"

The logic is probably that attaching new stuff to weapons make them more clumsy, fragile, etc.

If you don't take care you might snap that sight right out.

SA 58
"When adding multiple items of light bulk together,
treat 2–10 light bulk items as 1 bulk when combined.
"

It's a scam if you are only adding 2 light items together and get 1 bulk, but if you add 9 accessories to a light bulk weapon it still counts as only 1 bulk total.


I think that 7 is the maximum number of add ons you can have right now, 4 rail based, a grip, a stock, a muzzle device. I am not sure any of the stocks or trips interest me though.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
Four out of five times I come up with a cool idea for combo'ing tech,

Define cool idea and why mazecore would be useful for it.


I would like to combine a spear and a gun. Bayonetta dont allow it and mazecore kind of works... really, I think I'd like to mount a gun as a bayonet on my spear.


I originally wanted a gun maze cored to a hacking kit. "Just give me fifteen more seconds... Done!" Then turn and your computer screen folds up into a handcannon and you blow a hole in an alien.


Isaac Zephyr wrote:
I originally wanted a gun maze cored to a hacking kit. "Just give me fifteen more seconds... Done!" Then turn and your computer screen folds up into a handcannon and you blow a hole in an alien.

The Uniclamp allows this even better now, you can use the hacking kit while still having the weapon at the ready. One forward grip, one sight and two uniclamps, one for the hacking kit and the other for... hmm, cup holder or music player, depends on the campaign style I guess.


Torbyne wrote:
Isaac Zephyr wrote:
I originally wanted a gun maze cored to a hacking kit. "Just give me fifteen more seconds... Done!" Then turn and your computer screen folds up into a handcannon and you blow a hole in an alien.
The Uniclamp allows this even better now, you can use the hacking kit while still having the weapon at the ready. One forward grip, one sight and two uniclamps, one for the hacking kit and the other for... hmm, cup holder or music player, depends on the campaign style I guess.

Hmhm. Yeah, that is semi-true. For the Handcannon though, it would be bulk 1 anyway, so Mazecore would be cheaper and weigh the same.

Though I did think of another cool Mazecore combo my character woukd like now that Musical Instrument is a technological item.

Guitar lazer (which would probably work better with the Uniclamp arguably, but the guitar is the larger item).


Isaac Zephyr wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
Isaac Zephyr wrote:
I originally wanted a gun maze cored to a hacking kit. "Just give me fifteen more seconds... Done!" Then turn and your computer screen folds up into a handcannon and you blow a hole in an alien.
The Uniclamp allows this even better now, you can use the hacking kit while still having the weapon at the ready. One forward grip, one sight and two uniclamps, one for the hacking kit and the other for... hmm, cup holder or music player, depends on the campaign style I guess.

Hmhm. Yeah, that is semi-true. For the Handcannon though, it would be bulk 1 anyway, so Mazecore would be cheaper and weigh the same.

Though I did think of another cool Mazecore combo my character woukd like now that Musical Instrument is a technological item.

Guitar lazer (which would probably work better with the Uniclamp arguably, but the guitar is the larger item).

"Guitar lazer" is a funny way of saying, "GUITAR FLAMETHROWER!"


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Most recently, I really wanted to combine a sniper rifle with a heavy weapon to make a really big gun with two firing modes.

Maze-cores aren't compatible with sniper rifles. Alas, you can't make RWBY's scythe gun. (What's more, you can't do it with analog weapons, so scythes and bayonets are right out).

You can't make an underslung grenade launcher by adding a grenade launcher to a rifle (since grenade launcers are analog weapons).

Those are just a couple of things I'd like to do off the top of my head that I can't.

Starfinder Armory fixes some of this (by having underslung grenade launchers, bayonets, etc.), but that doesn't change the fact that maze-core tech is SERIOUSLY limiting. And arbitrarily so. Why can I combine a heavy weapon with a rifle, but not a sniper rifle? There's no in-world logic at all!

Maze-core could have been a really awesome mechanic, but the designers decided to go a different route with it.


Yeah. That is odd. My first thought was that when Maze Core was introduced there were no non-analog sniper rifles, but the Diasporan rifke is in Alien Archive and uses charges. So for whatever strange reason it omits sniper rifles.

I also don't see much reason why you can't use an analog weapon. I get tge idea Maze Core items are powered to essentially fuel the transformation, but it's not omitting weapon types unsuitable, just unpowered versions. A case being the Dueling Sword. 2 are powered, 2 analog, so some can be maze cored some not.

My best guess as to that reasoning is that if the device could change between analog and not, it would essentially change targetability for effects. "I target your powered weapon with my effect. Welp, screw your effect because now it's analog."


Azalah wrote:
Isaac Zephyr wrote:


Guitar lazer (which would probably work better with the Uniclamp arguably, but the guitar is the larger item).

"Guitar lazer" is a funny way of saying, "GUITAR FLAMETHROWER!"

Can you key the rate of fire to the guitar being played? Flip a switch and use your perform skill as an attack roll or such.


FirstChAoS wrote:
Azalah wrote:
Isaac Zephyr wrote:


Guitar lazer (which would probably work better with the Uniclamp arguably, but the guitar is the larger item).

"Guitar lazer" is a funny way of saying, "GUITAR FLAMETHROWER!"
Can you key the rate of fire to the guitar being played? Flip a switch and use your perform skill as an attack roll or such.

Mechanically, no. That would break the game (skill bonuses go a lot higher than attack roll mods). Thematically, the Uniclamp does say everything is controlled by one point. It doesn't say that point has to be the gun's trigger.


On-point: I really like the idea of the Maze Core but I agree that some of the restrictions feel a little unnecessary. I'm unsure what they mean by the "powered" requirement - do they mean the powered special weapon quality, or simply that the weapon cannot be analog? Do both components have to be powered?

Slightly off-topic: I'd sidestep the Maze Core completely and instead build Ruby's weapon as a coil sniper rifle with a heavy bayonet mount sporting a tactical scythe. She seems to use both modes of the weapon at the same time (in the Red trailer she uses the recoil from the sniper rifle to decapitate her enemies with the blade end), so near as I can tell it's not exactly a maze weapon alternating back and forth but rather two weapons in use at once.

Moderately off-topic: I think Pyrrha's spear/rifle and Nora's maul/grenade launcher are the best fits for maze core weapons. Yang's weapon seems like another hand cannon+gauntlet bayonet weapon for the same reason as Ruby's scythe. Weiss uses her sword with various fusions and/or pure magic, possibly a technomancer? Blake I'm not sure how to go about replicating, she alternates between straight blades and whip-pistol things - maybe maze core ripper dueling swords that transform into pistols with battle ribbon bayonets?

Really off-topic: I watched the Red and Yellow trailers to refresh my memory of the series, I'd forgotten how damn good the fight choreography was for this show. I should really watch it again.


Kudaku wrote:

Yang's weapon seems like another hand cannon+gauntlet bayonet weapon for the same reason as Ruby's scythe.

Really off-topic: I watched the Red and Yellow trailers to refresh my memory of the series, I'd forgotten how damn good the fight choreography was for this show. I should really watch it again.

The fight choreography is fantastic. I need to catch up, I only ever watched he first two seasons on Netflix.

For Yang though, I wouldn't even go that far. Just get Shell Knuckles, potentially with a Blasting weapon fusion (though I would rather make the arguement Energized should be a valid fusion for them). If you really wanna give the range, yeah, Uniclamp on some Handcannons and make her a Bombard Soldier so she can get Str on ranged damage. Possibly also Blasting fusion just for the fun of it.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
Maze-cores aren't compatible with sniper rifles.

They are, if you use a diasporan rifle (laser sniper rifle) or one of the options with charges in the Starfinder Armory.

Ravingdork wrote:
Alas, you can't make RWBY's scythe gun. (What's more, you can't do it with analog weapons, so scythes and bayonets are right out).

You can make a maze core diasporan rifle/dragonglaive.


Dragonchess Player wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Maze-cores aren't compatible with sniper rifles.
They are, if you use a diasporan rifle (laser sniper rifle) or one of the options with charges in the Starfinder Armory.

Quote from Maze-Cores

"Only powered or technological equipment can be built as maze-core devices, and the items must be melee weapons, small arms, longarms, heavy weapons, computers, or technological devices."

A Sniper Weapon, is it's own category of weapon not on the list. For whatever reason they are specifically left out of Maze-Cores.

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